From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 15 05:40:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA14926 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:40:47 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id FAA31069 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:22:20 -0600 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:22:20 -0600 Message-Id: <199901151122.FAA31069@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1096 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 15 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1096 In this digest: Re: IN> The PearlyGate Conspiracy (was Re: IN- Power of Superiors) Re: IN> Vessels, Pt Cost, and Limbo (was: Discord and Rites) Re: IN> Character point values Re: IN> Character point values Re: IN> Humanity (was Gabriel's attunements or something) Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> INS/MV (was: Flavour of GURPS IN) Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' Re: IN> The PearlyGate Conspiracy (was Re: IN- Power of Superiors) Re: IN> INS/MV (was: Flavour of GURPS IN) Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' Re: IN> Character point values IN> tethers plus where can i get INS? Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN IN> GURPS IN Artwork (was GURPS flavour) Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> RE: tethers Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> Shedim redeeming IN> David Artwork IN> Shedim (the 5th column) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:49:01 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> The PearlyGate Conspiracy (was Re: IN- Power of Superiors) >In message , Perry Lloyd writes >>>Feel free to doubt it, but the Ethereal gods will tell you that they >>>were. And that once, Yaweh was only as powerful as they... >> >>Add IMC... You *don't* want to wander too far from the Vale, at least >>without a guide. Far Marches, sure. *Outer* Marches, bad, bad idea... >> >>- -Perry, KFC > >Perry, you are a bad man. Heh heh heh . . . You got me wondering about the nature of God >in your campaign and I started to get some (even more than usual) cooky >ideas. :) I'm curious. Are you implying that God *is* a grossed up >ethereal IYC and the evidence is stashed away out there? Well, that was my former campaign. Kinda. Whether or not this is true in my *current* campaign is something that my PC's would have to discover themselves. IMFormerC, Yahweh was one of the many Gods, part of the Cthulhu Mythos (I used the Cthulhu Dreamlands for inspiration), but got sick with everything and stomped off claiming that would "make his own world". Thus, the In Nomine "universe" was the plane of existance that Yahweh made. The Ethereal Gods were all the Celestial beings that Yahweh had beaten into submission, stripped them of their Celestial Vessels and banished them to Ethereal existance. The Gods that the PC's encountered spoke a "dialect" of the Celestial Tongue (not Hell-speak, a dialect of the Heavenly Celestial Tongue), and upon seeing the PCs immediately assumed that they were Gods. Only Gods had Celestial forms, therefore a being in Celestial Form *must* be a God. Eventually, the PC discovered that every celestial had the potential to be a God, in fact, they already were. Well, the angels weren't, because they all shared Yahweh's Symphony, so they were merely part of a God, or like little Gods that had been "attached" to another God. The Demons, however, because they were not part of Yahweh had the potential to become a God in their own right. What about the fact that they're selfish, inherently? Well.... they were made of the same stuff as a god, only they weren't quite God material. For instance, they required essence to remain in Celestial form (IMC you can maintain Celestial form with extra essence) and they weren't able to extend their personal symphonies to affect other people very well. The Balseraphs were the closest to being able to do this. In theory, a celestial/God from Earth (Yahweh's realm) could learn how to free itself from what limited him. I decided that this would involve becoming Word-bound. In theory, if a Word-bound Celestial/God form earth were to escape from Yahweh's realm, then they should be able to tune themselves better to the chaotic music of the true universe. In the 'true universe' there is no divine plan, nor demonic. It's everyone trying to further their cause, to do whatever is that they do, however they want to do it. Maybe Lucifer encountered one of these Gods, and that's why he rebelled. In that campaign, the Seraphim couldn't tell if the other Gods were lying or not because they weren't at all connected with Yahweh's Symphony. In fact, because they had accidently stepped outside of their Symphony, they were becoming more and more dissonant and discordant. The Malakite self-destructed (went Dark), the rest fell from grace. The only one who didn't was the Seraph of Yves. Not until he returned to Earth. When the PC's came back to earth, Yves wanted them destroyed. They knew too much to continue existing. The PC's quickly alligned themselves with Demon Princes for Protection. That and the fact that Lucifer paid a special visit to the group and promised them that, as long as they did not speak of what they knew about the Outer Realms, they would allowed to maintain high positions in Hell's Royalty. Why? If Hell found out (as Lucifer did) that they had the potential to become a God.... chaos would erupt. Lucifer figured out how to become a God. In fact, he IS a God. That's why he figured that he would win the War. Or, at least had a hope. When Sthood (a big nasty God who was the one who actually created humankind, which Yahweh stole from him) arrived on Earth to take it for himself, Lucifer showed up to kick his ass. "I am the local Deity here and this is MY realm." or something to that effect. When he (and the PC's) were not making much progress with Sthood, he sent one of them to get Yves. Yves and Lucifer fought the foreign God together, not once making eye contact. As soon as Sthood was destroyed, Yves left. Lucifer then informed the PCs that they were to remain silent about what they might have learned, in return they would be offered high positions. (Where they could be better watched, of course.) >Maybe such a guide is an Outcast servitor of Dreams who believes that he >has found out the truth about Yahweh? Quite possibly. Of course, IMFC, neither Yahweh nor Lucifer would want that information to get out. >Maybe Blandine *knows* and is covering things up, sending the odd group >of Malakim to eliminate those who stray too far? That may have been her >real objection to Uriel galumphing around the Marches. He might have >_learnt_ something. So she has words with Yves (who is the Master >Conspirator - rarely opens his mouth and speaks in riddles when he does) >and he pulls some strings with the Seraphim Council to recall Uriel >before it's too late. Cool beans! I like it. :) >Result? God sticks Uriel in Warehouse 23. :D Heh heh... in a "special" Bodybag. >Hmm. Gabriel's probably in on it too, what with her having a direct >Tether to the Marches and all. Explains her instability doesn't it? Maybe... >It also puts another slant on all that cigarette smoking... ;) eh? >The Truth is *Out* There? >-- >Julian (Conspiracies on the Brain) - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:01:47 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels, Pt Cost, and Limbo (was: Discord and Rites) >True but in play you can't bribe your superior to give you a vessel by >taking discord. >Being able to take discord and get character points at character creation >is a game balance concept , otherwise all characters would receive >character points for acquiring discords. Nonsense. I worked with other point-based systems. If you acquire a disadvantage/discord as a result of play, you don't receive any points to balance you back out, merely your total point total goes down. Player: "Hmmm... so, whereas before I was a 350pt character, now I'm a 250pt character." GM: "Yes. But you're lucky to have survived." Player" "Okay, uh, now that I've regained consciousness, I open my eyes." GM: "You have no eyes." Player: "What? Okay... I listen." GM: "You do not hear anything. You hear nothing, not even the sound of the air." Player: "Okay, I... I'll use my telepathy. Do I sense any minds near me?" GM: "Yes. There's Dr. Bradshaw and your friend Dax." Player: "How are they feeling?" GM: "Both are rather unhappy and afraid, though Dr. Bradshaw's unhappiness is mixed with excitement." Player: "Okay, I'm rolling to see what he's excited about." GM: "Well, it seems that you're the first person he's ever managed to preserve as a disembodied brain." Player: "Ah. That would explain the drop of 100pts. Oh, boy." Gaining a disadvantage in play would not have to be balanced out with additional points. :) >Also the relative lack of value from discords in limbo is: >a) probably a game balance thing[ otherwise 1 level of discord and you have >a vessel.] True. >b) explainable as the damage the character does to himself on attempting to >put a vessel together without putting in enough essence and having to make >up the difference at a loss out of their soul as they discover that the >vessel won't hold together otherwise. Good point. :) >I have no idea why the normal forces of the vessel in some circumstances >affect the cost unless it is to discourage players from hiding in limbo and >building a dragon vessel. I agree. If vessel level only determines body points, then why should it cost more for one kind of vessel other than another? (obviously human vessels are preferable for practical reasons, but does it justify the 15pts per force explanation? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:13:24 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Character point values >Forces are 10 points each : 90 Points >Superior Choir Attunements are 5 points : 5 Points >*Rites [from Kobal's choir Attumnents] are 2.5 points: 8 points or so. Doesn't it say somewhere how much Rites could be purchased for at character creation? Naw, I couldn't find it. >Character points: 36 points >*Choir Attunement and Discord condition [from Balseraph of Fate]: 5 points >Conscious essence use, invocation of superiors, host/vessel advantage: Unknown As long as all PCs are Celestial, doesn't matte. >Superiors discord condition: Unknown Ditto. >Ability to use songs per realm [from soldier attunements] 10: 30 points > >So 174 character points plus or minus. Ah. Good point, the Band/Choir Attunement as the Rites. I would say that Superior's Dissonance should balance out Rites (no matter how many Rites you possess of that Superior). Rites from OTHER Superiors, yeah, I'd say between 5 and 10 pts ea. >Unfortunately I am well aware that the starred items are dubious to say the >least and that many of the attunements especially are of different values. >Lilim of Death being a classic example, Calabite of Fate, being another. >Fated Future is less valuable than Divine Destiny. [Not that that matters >much since few characters will have a choice between them.] And so on. Yeah, its hard when some Attunements are more powerful than others. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:26:35 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Character point values On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Perry Lloyd wrote: > Doesn't it say somewhere how much Rites could be purchased for at > character creation? Naw, I couldn't find it. It says in the writeup for the mummy that as an undead he can purchase a special rite for, iirc, three points. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:26:21 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Humanity (was Gabriel's attunements or something) >[Perry Lloyd:] >>I may have to devise a Point Based system of 'gauging' my In Nomine >>characters so that I can translate my GURPS characters into the game. >>Or something. The two systems are very different. > >You're welcome to playtest the conversion rules for GURPS IN, which are >currently proposed to include "back-conversion" from GURPS to IN, since >that will let people use characters from GURPS supplements (primarily >historical, I suspect) in IN. Oo! >However, I haven't started on these yet. (Yes, for those who haven't >seen the chat session with Dr. Kromm yet, Elizabeth and I are currently >writing the GURPS conversion of In Nomine.) Currently we've got most of >the Choirs and Bands done, and a lot of the other character-creation >material in notes. Oh. >I'm hoping some of this stuff will go up for early playtest fairly soon, >since it's complicated, and there are definite tradeoffs in the accuracy >of conversion versus complexity. Pooh. >I'll probably tackle the "back-conversion" problem after the Superiors >are mostly done, which won't be for a while, I fear. I'm willing to >discuss notions either on- or off-list, though. Ok. >>Too true. I believe I'll have Black Ops *start* at 9 Forces as well as >>having bonus points for skills. I'll also have to "condense" certain >>skills so that the In Nomine Black Op does not have over 100 different >>skills. :) > >I think that's probably the right idea. GURPS is more "fine-grained" >than In Nomine. I'd guess "skill-compression" should reduce number of >skills by a factor of somewhere around 4:1. I can see that. "But, Perry, how are we going to buy over 100 skills with only 36 points?" "Well... uh... I've made a few compressions..." >>Probably, but I don't want to lose a lot of the In Nomine flavor by >>trying to use the GURPS system. GURPS doesn't have the three realms >>(Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial), and In Nomine is "built" around >>that triad. I feel that translating to GURPS would really take the >>wind out of In Nomine's world. > >A problem I'm currently wrestling with.... The realms themselves are >there in the conversion, of course, but they're somewhat less evident in >impact on the characters. At the moment, it looks like they'll mostly >affect Songs, and occasionally attunements. In a lot of places where IN >mechanics use " Forces", I've been using constants. Hrm. Constants that might be based upon something that could be either raised or lowered for points. Like Blood Pool is GURPS Vampire:TM. It's kinda messy, though. >There is currently a set of advantages/disadvantages that is the residue >of the three Forces in IN; these affect some of the converted mechanics, >where it looked like there was enough justification to keep the added >complexity. Ok. >Right now, these are called Corporeal/Ethereal/Celestial >Connection/Disconnection, but Songbook used the notion of " >Connection" for something else, so I'm hoping to find a better word for >it. I don't want to call them Forces, since they aren't, exactly -- >they're really X Forces - 3, at the moment (i.e., average 9-Force >celestial). Also, as this discussion has pointed out, counting Forces >in humans and celestials doesn't really fit into the regular GURPS >attribute system very well, so I'm trying to de-emphasize Forces a lot. Crap. Maybe 10 for the constant for humans' forces (since GURPS is human centered)... Yeah, de-emphaszing forces... woah... >---Walter - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:37:57 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN >At 1:51 AM +0000 1/14/99, Julian Breen wrote: >>Mechanics aside, Walter, how about flavour? [...] > >It will probably keep a fair amount of the original flavor. I hope. >(Neither of us are fanatic about Dark Flavor -- however, I'm better >at being twisted like that than he is, and I'm doing most of the >flavor.) Dark dark dark... :) Not that Hell is any more powerful than heaven, but there's something so nice about the ray of hope in a bastian of darkness. Bastian? Is that even a word? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:39:34 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN >I second Anders's suggestion on tips for different flavors. >I would *not* like to see IN steered preferentially toward >the angsty or gritty, since these are not flavors I favor. > >Earl Points. 31 Flavors of God and the Devil. - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:42:23 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV (was: Flavour of GURPS IN) >Me neither, but since I don't play GURPS, it's no skin off my nose if people >who can't cope with the hi-octane outrageous weirdness migrate to that >instead. Anyway, I have discovered INS and a good French dictionary so I >don't need to get my fix from SJG any more (if you can get hold of a copy, I >_highly_ recommend it...) > > >I thought Walter said he didn't like gritty/ dark games, though :-) > > > >jo > Ummm... Jo? How *did* you get ahold of them? I e-mailed them once but didn't really get anything useful in return. (Je parle et lis francais deja, donc it serait si cool pour moi d'avoir une copie de INS/MV... :) - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:34:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' At 3:21 PM -0500 1/14/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>But your partner gets 2 Essence at dusk, and can give you one -- if >>at no other time, then when you let Humanity lapse for a few seconds >>to accept the Essence. >> > >"Partner"? Did I miss something? Are Asmodeus's demons usually in >pairs? Not necessarily, but it's not impossible. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:51:57 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> The PearlyGate Conspiracy (was Re: IN- Power of Superiors) >>It also puts another slant on all that cigarette smoking... ;) > >eh? The picture of Yves in his description in IN shows him holdinga cigarette in his left hand (IIRC). If you knew that and were eh-ing at something else, then obviously "You're not cleared for that". Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:07:25 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV (was: Flavour of GURPS IN) - -----Original Message----- From: Perry Lloyd > >Ummm... Jo? How *did* you get ahold of them? I e-mailed them once but >didn't really get anything useful in return. > A Canadian friend gave me one of the books as a present, and I contacted a French RPG shop to order some of the rest. Also, we found the URL of a shop in the US (I assume) which sells them online, albeit more expensive (can't vouch for how good it is cos I've not used them). If you're interested, drop me an email and I'll pass the details on. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:19:10 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >"Partner"? Did I miss something? Are Asmodeus's demons usually in > >pairs? > > Not necessarily, but it's not impossible. It's even plausible, perhaps even probable. Of course, he debriefs you seperately, so if you need to coordinate your story, better do it before he visits. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:06:37 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Character point values Perry Lloyd wrote on 14 January 1999 >Doesn't it say somewhere how much Rites could be purchased for at >character creation? Naw, I couldn't find it. IIRC mummies (and probably other undead) can buy a rite for 3 pts. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:40:51 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> tethers plus where can i get INS? Ramesh: "What about Stone or Factions? (Depending on how successful it is)" Well, simply because the Dome is meant to reflect the nation's aspirations as it heads into the new millennium! Os so the sales pitch goes. Stone is certainly a candidate, but David's got plenty to be getting on with anyway (especially if England get the World Cup in 2006!) - IMC. David: "Because if you include numerical details, the numbers will inevitably conflict with what someone else came up with in their campaign, and then you'll get people ranting about how canon sucks because it forces them to follow it or throw it out of their campaign..." Not if they are presented as guidelines; something for the GM to work with. A starting point. That's how I would treat it. Yossi: "I, for one, would find it worthwhile to know what topics are discussed in the book; knowing that there *is* a chapter dealing with tethers and campaigns makes me more inclined to purchase it." Hear, hear! Jo: "Anyway, I have discovered INS and a good French dictionary so I don't need to get my fix from SJG any more (if you can get hold of a copy, I _highly_ recommend it...)" I'd be interested to know where you got it, and how much for. Then perhaps you could recommend a good dictionary or translator. Then perhaps you could recommend a good…(no wait I have no interior monologue) I don't speak a word of French! ~g~ Emily: "I have currently no money, and I don't know a lick of French. But that has never stopped me before." Well, speaking as a brit, we're all brothers and sister in Yerp now, so I'm with you! It's mutiny sir! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:08:32 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > I second Anders's suggestion on tips for different flavors. > I would *not* like to see IN steered preferentially toward > the angsty or gritty, since these are not flavors I favor. I'll admit, I like 'gritty', but not 'angsty'. But there's a lot else I do like. Heaven-based games, IMHO, need a grander, more noble feeling. However, something I'd perssonally be interested in seeing are tips on running an IN game in different historical eras. - - Steel Angel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:18:30 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements > Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:56:56 -0500 > From: Earl Wajenberg > Subject: Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements > > Is there redundancy in Calabim of Technology being > sort of uber-gremlins? > > Earl I think the Calabim of Technology attunement would be a nice addition to IN. Perhaps they could be introduced in the next cycle? You could even have an adventure introducing the attunement. (And then made part of the v2.0 main rulebook, of course) Surtur Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:21:07 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Walter Milliken wrote: > To some extent, that may make it a bit darker and grittier, since combat > will be somewhat nastier. (Also, celestials probably won't have > enormously-higher hit points than humans, though the occasional > combat-monster may have bought a lot of Extra Hit Points.) Now why is that? I for one, as a Houserule, tend to give my Celestials - -more- Body Hits than the game usually allows for starting off. I mean, you're an -angel- or a -demon-, I'd expect you to be a little bit better than a human in a lot of ways. That's one of the reasons I really liked GURPs Vampire and Werewolf supplements, they ditched the silly 7 wound level thing and made it so that the undead were a -lot- harder to injure. (werewolves are just terrifying, but I -like- that, makes my players edgy now ;) ) - - Steel Angel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:30:51 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> GURPS IN Artwork (was GURPS flavour) >Artwork is chosen by the SJGames art director, not the authors. We >have >only very limited input into it. And frankly, I *like* Smif's In >Nomine >work. > >In this case, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the existing IN art >was >recycled in the GURPS IN book. We do expect the Superior pictures to >be >re-used, at least. Though it won't be in color.... Hear Hear! Smif's art suits IN perfectly. Losing the colour on the Superior pictures is no loss at all. I actually bought the black and white original of "David" ($US20! What a bargain!) - - it looks MUCH better in black and white. (Sorry if the colourist is on the list!) I wish I'd kept all of the scans that were used on the auction site, particularly the Grigori one (another pic which looks much better in B+W). I only kept the GM screen panels and a few others. If anyone else kept the black and white auction scans of IN Art, don't email me privately to organise swapping art. That would be very naughty. Especially don't email me on david_streeter@hotmail.com in the next week or so. Surtur Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:37:54 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Perry Lloyd wrote: > Dark dark dark... :) Not that Hell is any more powerful than heaven, > but there's something so nice about the ray of hope in a bastian of > darkness. Bastian? Is that even a word? You're thinking of 'bastion'. :) - - Steel Angel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 02:17:17 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> RE: tethers Ramesh Satkurunath writes >Martin Arnold wrote on 13 January 1999 >>That's the goal; and it seems very realistic - although I haven't >>anything for Blandine or Beleth yet. Maybe the Millennium Dome will >>tether to Dreams, I'm not sure. > > >What about Stone or Factions? (Depending on how successful it is) > I think that Kobal will surprise everyone and Dark Humour will tether (at least temporarily!). There's a major exhibit planned (the first thing that you should encounter upon entering) which is a walk through model of the human body. Inside, there are going to be sets explaining how medical advances of the Twenty-first Century are going to make life that little more rosy for all of us. All this of course when the Dome is costing 400 Million (or somesuch) and the National Health Service flounders tragically due to lack of funding. "Step right up, folks!" - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:31:54 -0800 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' >>"Partner"? Did I miss something? Are Asmodeus's demons usually in >>pairs? > >Not necessarily, but it's not impossible. Well, it does make sense. First, Asmodeus's "opposite number" is well known for sending out his servants in threes. (If you really wanted to play up the idea that the Inquisition isn't that different from the Game, you might have them BOTH send three.) Second... do you think Asmodeus, or his organization, trusts ANYONE enough to let them work alone? Without someone reporting on them all the time? Two is a minimum for stabbing... er, watching each other's back. "Stay alert. Trust no one. Keep your Songs handy." - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:26:15 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements I'd say if Vapula did create Calabim, their attunement would be something along the lines of a more controlled resonance. Maybe they could absorb the failed entropy attack back into themselves without dissonance, similar to what Andrealphus gives his Habbalah. Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:24:21 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Shedim redeeming Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Shrug. The only demon who redeemed IMC was a Shedite Baron of Fate. Even > before he redeemed, he believed in God, and believed in His righteousness > and goodness. Slipgash just thought he was filth and worthless refuse > undeserving of being anywhere near the holy presence of God. > > IMC, most Shedim /believed/ that they were the most evil and wretched > demons in the Pit, but that was a lie the Princes were extremely > careful to cultivate. Despite the best efforts of the Princes, the > Shedim produced the most Redemptions of any of the demonic Bands, both > on a percentage and absolute basis. I find this rather hard to reconcile with everything said about that Band in the main book. Shedim are the ones who -love- their work, the reason they fell is because they were -so- selfish that they couldn't stand using more than one host at a time and they no longer -cared- about their host's condition. These things do -not- lead to an easily redeemable Band, IMHO. > This is because they can't have any illusions about the nature of their > existence: they exist in direct opposition to the will of God, and they > bring suffering and misery to mankind. Their dissonance condition means > there's just no way for a Shedite to rationalize that fact away like > other demons can. More, they spend time in the heads of human beings, > where they are made acutely aware of the reality of faith, love and > charity. It's not easy for them to pretend that this is just Heavenly > propaganda when they feel them flowing through human souls every single > day. -Every- demon exists in opposition to God's will. Calabim -kill- people, Impudites rob them of their essence, Balseraphs pervert the Symphony itself around themselves. Shedim can -easily- rationalize away what they do: humans are scum to be controlled, used, and thrown away at wil. Remember, when thinking about 'feeling the goodness' etc, and as for 'faith, love, and charity' have you -looked- at the world lately? War, rape, crime, greed, and selfishness are -far- more widespread than the alternatives. I highly doubt that anything like a majority of humans they possess are very faithful or loving, or the Will rolls they make to preform evil acts would be -far- higher. To them, these things -are- propganda, they have -proof-. They can make so-called 'good' humans do - -any- sort of depraved act they want. Remember, the Shedim don't drive the human consciousness away entirely at all, not like Kyriotates do. Shedim sway the human mind to do things that all people have the - -potential- to do, and just need a little push to consider doing. Every time they make someone do something selfish or evil, -that's- their proof that humanity is worthless, mindless, and, at base, selfish. > So the Princes need to make extra efforts to keep Earthbound Shedim > from Redeeming in large numbers. I'd say their Dissonance condition does -that- better than anything. You don't corrupt, you become a puddle of oozing Dissonance or Discord. It'd be harder for the Shedim to redeem than -any- other Band. > Further, this has the nice in-game side-effect that Shedim were sent to > the Earth pnly in extreme cases, where the risk of the Shedite possessing > a good person and deciding to Redeem was judged to be less than that of > the potential profit. So as a GM I didn't have to run a lot of NPCs who > could -never- be caught if they had even two brain cells to click > together. (Shedim and Kyriotates make investigative games much, much > harder to run, and so I wanted a good reason to avoid using them if > possible.) So, basically you got rid of the nasty tendency of your players having to use their brains too much. :) Shedim seem to -enjoy- destroying the best people, most of all, it's even a way to rid themselves of Dissonance (IPG: The Long Ride). This proves to the demon, that even the best of humanity can be turned to darkness with little effort, what does - -that- tell them about humanity? Myself, I -like- making my players work a little...how dull is it if the damn Cherub or Djinn can attune to something and it can be tracked forever. I like the fact that Shedim and Kyriotates are hard to pin down...ever see the movie Fallen? Perfect example of how to run a Shedite. Also remember, -no one- has good and pure thoughts -all- the time. Shedim are the ones who 'let' you do all the terrible things they know you 'really' want to do. Even the saintliest of people have selfish, dark thoughts. -This- is the proof that a Shedim in a so-called 'good' person needs that God's will isn't so great and humanity isn't worth the effort. - - Steel Angel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:53:21 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: IN> David Artwork On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, David Streeter wrote: > Hear Hear! Smif's art suits IN perfectly. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but I don't have anything against it - now. Early on I really didn't like his style. > Losing the colour on the Superior pictures is no loss at all. I actually > bought the black and white original of "David" ($US20! What a bargain!) > - it looks MUCH better in black and white. (Sorry if the colourist is on > the list!) David's art has always bothered me. It seems the colorist and the b&w artist placed the lightsource on opposite sides of him. :P Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:15:07 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Shedim (the 5th column) It's fairly clear just from looking at the various superiors that Shedim tend to come in two main types (ie. one more than Impudites and several less than Habbalah). I see them as ultimately the most anarchic of all bands (not only do they hate laws, it's also very difficult to tie them down and force them to take responsibility for anything they do) -- so you could probably describe two types of anarchist like this as well. The first is the intellectual. This kind of demon is very interested in the philosophy of evil and, given half an opportunity, will be more than happy to discuss it over a few drinks. It can appear sly, urbane and highly civilised, but it's still working as hard as it can towards the ultimate downfall of humanity as we know it. They seduce humanity with learning, knowledge, and power. It's easy for a Shedite like this to allow selected hosts to become dependent on the demon's superior intellect and reasoning skills, in preference to whatever the host could have done on its own. Of course, the demon will tell the host to look out for itself first, and it can make itself absolutely the voice of reason. They also enjoy having philosophical discussions with would-be exorcists; and a competent Shedite can turn an uninformed human like this into a new servant or ally very easily. Evil has some very plausible front-men, especially when they speak through the lips of an old friend. The types of corruption they specialise in involve spreading dangerous ideas and making them attractive to their hosts. Let a subtle, intellectual Shedite loose in a police precinct and it won't take long for every officer to lose their edge, consider taking bribes, and take a more cynical approach to the job -- even the ones the demon never possesses will be influenced by the ones it does. Typically they are very methodical about spreading corruption, and approach each target as an interesting new project. Any type of mortal hierarchy is very susceptible to Shedite infiltration like this. All the demon has to do is possess one of the infuential mortals at the top of the tree, and others will follow its example, if not its direct orders. The other main Shedite type (mainly younger demons, but not limited to that) is the juvenile delinquent. They like to leave trails of havoc and destruction in their wake, and can run through hosts quite swiftly. I think of these as being like BMX stunt riders -- very concerned with being rad and trying to outdo each other in the bizarre stunts they can get their hosts to do. To follow this mindset, imagine that you have the ability to become invisible. You can wander through the world and no-one will ever be able to follow you or pin you down for anything that you do. So how long before you try to pick something off someone else's desk, just to see if they'll notice? How long before you sneak a free ride on a bus, or into a theatre? Then, how long before you stop bothered to sneak, because they aren't going to notice you anyway...? Now, what if you could borrow other people's skins for a while, still un-noticed. How long before you find someone you want to sleep with and 'borrow' their SO? No-one will ever know... How long before you think 'I wonder what it's like to be in a car crash', and make someone crash their car so that you can find out? Shedim are very irresponsible demons. But why do you need to be responsible when no-one can ever catch you doing anything? Someone else always has to deal with the fallout of what the demon has done; because by that time, it has moved on. I imagine that even the most austere and intellectual Shedite sometimes gives way to the same euphoria; it's just too tempting. It's particularly tempting to keep pushing the limits -- see how far you can make your host go before it breaks or gets picked up by the mortal authorities. They probably keep a running tally back in Hell of which demons have pulled off the wildest, scariest, most outrageous stunts. (Just like the BMX dudes...) They don't argue intellectually with hosts, they're more like the voice in your head that says 'I bet you wouldn't dare...', or 'C'mon, this is cool!' They drown out the voice of a hosts conscience through sheer exuberance and enthusiasm. Afterwards, of course, it's already too late... These Shedim don't like it when people stop to think before they do something, they prefer impulse evil, preferably way over the top... Now the reason Princes need to try to keep their Shedite servitors focussed is that, like Kyriotates, they are easily distracted. Distracted by different types of things, but still not the most linear of thinkers. Like their counterparts, they are also interested in experiencing as much of life as possible, and the host is just a vehicle. It's like having a car with a fairly advanced mapping system that can also drive itself. And most Shedim don't really see humans as anything much more than that. Potential hosts, waiting to be road-tested to destruction. Moving lego people that the demon is allowed to play with. It can be confusing, always having to share part of your thoughts with a mortal, and it's only with experience that the demon will learn how to firewall those parts off efficiently. Jumping from host to host can give an uncentred demon a case of MPD -- a Kyrio is one mind in multiple bodies, a Shedite has it the other way around. On the other hand, the demon can just choose to lurk in the back of a host's mind, let the mortal deal with mortal things, and only exert itself when it wants to push its own agenda, or gets bored. So it's a nice lazy option, and many Shedim are just lazy if they aren't pushed. Because of the access to mortal minds, they probably have the easiest time of any demon in adjusting to earth, they just let the host deal with that stuff. jo Shedim just wanna have fun! ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1096 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.