From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Jan 16 10:31:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15118 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:31:50 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA19495 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:21:47 -0600 Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:21:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199901161621.KAA19495@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1097 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, January 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1097 In this digest: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> Shedim redeeming Re: IN> Vessels, Pt Cost, and Limbo (was: Discord and Rites) IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) Re: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) IN> Reading the Angelic Player's Guide Re: IN> Reading the Angelic Player's Guide IN> Re: Reading the Angelic Player's Guide Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios Re: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios IN> Re: IN- Character point values Re: IN> Re: Reading the Angelic Player's Guide Re: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios Re: IN> Shedim (the 5th column) Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' Re: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) Re: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios Re: IN> Re: Reading the Angelic Player's Guide Re: IN> In Nomine Black Ops? (was Humanity) Re: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios Re: IN> Shedim (the 5th column) IN> Re: IN- Some questions about 'The Game' Re: IN> Re: IN- Some questions about 'The Game' IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN IN> Whine about GURPS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:53:22 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN >Walter Milliken wrote: >> To some extent, that may make it a bit darker and grittier, since combat >> will be somewhat nastier. (Also, celestials probably won't have >> enormously-higher hit points than humans, though the occasional >> combat-monster may have bought a lot of Extra Hit Points.) > > Now why is that? I for one, as a Houserule, tend to give my Celestials >- -more- Body Hits than the game usually allows for starting off. I mean, >you're an -angel- or a -demon-, I'd expect you to be a little bit better >than a human in a lot of ways. Right. The problem with IN is that the celestials are so wimpy that there's no room at tbe bottom for the humans. I rescaled the attribute scale in my game so that 1-6 is the human range of attributes. So a nine-force celestial is right around human max in terms of attributes. This allowed neat special effects like the 9 Perception angel not needing night-vision gear, and so on. >That's one of the reasons I really liked GURPs Vampire and Werewolf >supplements, they ditched the silly 7 wound level thing and made it so >that the undead were a -lot- harder to injure. (werewolves are just >terrifying, but I -like- that, makes my players edgy now ;) ) And an angel ought to give even a vampire reason to reconsider its ethics. I mean, surely an angel ought to be at least around the level of a second-stage Lensman. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:40:09 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > I rescaled the attribute scale in my game so that 1-6 is the > human range of attributes. So a nine-force celestial is right around > human max in terms of attributes. This allowed neat special effects like > the 9 Perception angel not needing night-vision gear, and so on. Could you provide more details, please? Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:34:43 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements At 1:26 AM -0500 1/15/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >I'd say if Vapula did create Calabim, their attunement would be something >along the lines of a more controlled resonance. Maybe they could absorb the >failed entropy attack back into themselves without dissonance, similar to what >Andrealphus gives his Habbalah. This implies, however, that Vapula *can* make something that *restricts* destruction. Considering the unreliability of Vapulan Tech, I would be inclined to doubt that... More likely, his initial experiments with Calabim showed that the only thing he can do is make Destroyers who glitch machinery just by walking by . . . - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:37:16 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim redeeming At 11:24 PM -0800 1/15/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > -Every- demon exists in opposition to God's will. Calabim -kill- >people, So do Malakim. (Or Cherubim, or Seraphim, or Ofanim, or Kyriotates, or Elohim...) Mercurians don't kill *humans*, at least... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:37:47 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> Vessels, Pt Cost, and Limbo (was: Discord and Rites) >Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:01:47 EST >From: "Perry Lloyd" >>True but in play you can't bribe your superior to give you a vessel by >>taking discord. >>Being able to take discord and get character points at character creation >>is a game balance concept , otherwise all characters would receive >>character points for acquiring discords. >Nonsense. I worked with other point-based systems. If you acquire a >disadvantage/discord as a result of play, you don't receive any points >to balance you back out, merely your total point total goes down. Precisely. You get points in generation for disadvantages so that all characters start equal. Not because there is some value in acquiring a disadvantage.[Its a bribe to make you build more interesting characters.] You don't later, so the value of them is only a nominal balancing figure [and cost to remove] not something in system. Where as CP's and the things you buy with them are among other things supposed to represent how pleased your superior is with your performance On the other hand I have seen bits on occasions in both Gurps and Champions on taking disadvantages to help pay for new advantages or on taking new ones to replace ones that the character has made obsolete through action [Hunteds seem prone to this, Gurps Dark Secret is built totally around this.] Adam One of who's players sold out to the forces of darkness last night for a to hit bonus. A big to hit bonus it must be said but a to hit bonus. Luckily the rest of the party will kill his character for doing so. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:37:44 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) >Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:41:36 -0500 >From: David Edelstein >I don't think it is explicitly stated anywhere. Maybe it should have been, >but it strikes me as being so obvious one would assume that to be the >default -- you can't attack someone between realms, you can't see someone >between realms, you can't use the Song of Shattering, Song of Possession, >etc., on someone between realms, nor can you teleport someone to another >realm with the Celestial Song of Motion. Crossing realms is something >outside the parameters of almost every ability except a _few_ Songs, which >specifically say they can reach between realms. In most cases I agree the range automatically rule inter planar activity out. this out. The song of Correspondence appears to be in the second category. The only statement on range I can see in its description is the bit about affecting nearly any part of the symphony from any distance. The description is all about causing resonance patterns in the Symphony, which is contiguous. Without the song of correspondence the description of celestial motion rules out teleporting people to anywhere that isn't either in sight or a place on Earth you've been to. The problem with cross planar jumps is that locations on another plane tend to be out of sight or more than 60 miles away or both. Note for example that Celestial Tongues also makes no specific statement of crossing realms but also states it will get to the target almost invariably. Is this plane limited? >>>>But the destination for the song of motion is in front of me. I can see >it. >It's the origin point I don't know the location of and neither song makes >any restriction on the origin points.<<< >What you're proposing is "I use the Song of Correspondence to turn the >range between the spot in front of me and the spot under the feet of >someone who could be anywhere else on Earth to 0." Remember, you're >targeting a location, not the person. I take the sentence: "The song of correspondence can also be performed on an intended destination, effectively shortening the distance to that location to 0 for purposes of the song of motion." [Libra Canticorum p66] to mean that songs of motion that move things to that location for the duration of the song of correspondence act as if the range was 0. I.e. are in range for any Celestial Song of Motion transferring items to that location. >You can't do that, because you can't use the Song of Correspondence to >target a random spot somewhere in the world when you have NO information >about where it is. But the destination for the jump is here. True I don't know where the origin for the jump is, but the song of correspondence enables me to grab someone and bring them to me, and I don't need to know where they are to do that. >You can target the _person_ with Correspondence, and then bring him to you >with the Celestial Song of Motion, _if_ he's within range of the latter. >But to make his range 0 (so that he's automatically within range of the >Song of Motion), you have to also target his location. As written only, If I wish to use the song of motion to go to his location do I need to do that. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:27:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) At 11:37 AM -0500 1/15/99, Adam Canning wrote: >>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:41:36 -0500 >>From: David Edelstein >>I don't think it is explicitly stated anywhere. Maybe it should have been, It's in the errata for the book now. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:41:03 PST From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Reading the Angelic Player's Guide I just spent yesterday evening reading my new *Angelic Player's Guide.* I have heard repeatedly from this list that it is far from flawless, but I really enjoyed the section on "The Angelic Mind," which confirms the way I think angels should be played. However, while skimming along the parts about Kyriotates (my husband plays a Kyriotate), I read the following: "The cardinal rule of Kyriotates is they cannot leave a host body in worse shape than they found it. This also includes the host's mental, emotional and spiritual well-being. A Kyriotate cannot possess a human vessel, proceed to ruin that person's career and family life, then disappear and expect no repercussions." (p. 57) Further on, in the section on "Angel Reproduction," I read the following: "Kyriotates are a special case of angel-human mating. Their vessels are living mortal humans, and can reproduce in the standard way. ... A child conceived by a Domination is simply the offspring of the angel's host body. While most Kyriotates try not to leave their hosts pregnant or the unsuspecting father of a child-to-be, they *don't* create dissonance by doing so (servants of Eli are especially lax about this)." Is it just me, or does this bring new meaning to the term "inconsistent?" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:00:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Reading the Angelic Player's Guide At 9:41 AM -0800 1/15/99, Janet Anderson wrote: >Is it just me, or does this bring new meaning to the term >"inconsistent?" It's not just you. O:> (I think the person who wrote the reproduction stuff was male, too...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:48:32 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: IN> Re: Reading the Angelic Player's Guide On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Janet Anderson wrote: [...] > "The cardinal rule of Kyriotates is they cannot leave a host body in > worse shape than they found it. This also includes the host's mental, > emotional and spiritual well-being. A Kyriotate cannot possess a human > vessel, proceed to ruin that person's career and family life, then > disappear and expect no repercussions." (p. 57) [...] > "Kyriotates are a special case of angel-human mating. Their vessels are > living mortal humans, and can reproduce in the standard way. ... A > child conceived by a Domination is simply the offspring of the angel's > host body. While most Kyriotates try not to leave their hosts pregnant > or the unsuspecting father of a child-to-be, they *don't* create > dissonance by doing so (servants of Eli are especially lax about this)." > > Is it just me, or does this bring new meaning to the term > "inconsistent?" This is inconsistent only if becoming a parent is contrary to that person's interests. Servants of Yves in particular are likely to detect the fact that unexpected parenthood, while it might be contrary to the host's *wishes*, might nevertheless be the best possible thing for her or him spiritually. Recall the Catholic Church's attitude about new life vs. contraception, and recall also that that two AAs are personally invested in making Catholicism *the* human religion. As for the specific matter of Eli, recall that the AA of Creation is strongly in favor of human birth; this wouldn't be the first time an AA's Word overrides an angel's normal dissonance condition. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:15:47 -0500 From: Ivan Ironsword Subject: Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > This implies, however, that Vapula *can* make something that *restricts* > destruction. Considering the unreliability of Vapulan Tech, I would > be inclined to doubt that... > > More likely, his initial experiments with Calabim showed that the only > thing he can do is make Destroyers who glitch machinery just by walking > by . . . > the ultimate subeotors.... Baal may have uses for that.... Nick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:10:42 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, York H. Dobyns wrote: > This is inconsistent only if becoming a parent is contrary to that > person's interests. I disagree. The rules say that it's dissonant for a Kyrio to harm a host, not that it's dissonant for the Kyrio to harm the host unless the harm will do the host good in the long run. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:52:20 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios In a message dated 1/15/99 12:23:13 PM, ebartley@enteract.com writes: >I disagree. The rules say that it's dissonant for a Kyrio to harm a host, >not that it's dissonant for the Kyrio to harm the host unless the harm >will do the host good in the long run. > Now this depends on how you define 'harm,' doesn't it? I'm a father now, and I *know* that pregnancy is not an illness. The mental portion is tremendously variable from situation to situation, and, in many cases, ends up being a positive rather than a negative. Of course, I view Kyrios as overly curious creatures, who possess several closely linked people/critters/things in succession, helping a bit here and there. > Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:55:15 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Character point values >>Doesn't it say somewhere how much Rites could be purchased for at >>character creation? Naw, I couldn't find it. > > >IIRC mummies (and probably other undead) can buy a rite for 3 pts. > >Ramesh Cool, thanks. :) - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:15:04 EST From: Endlsskid@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: Reading the Angelic Player's Guide From: ydobyns@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (York H. Dobyns) >This is inconsistent only if becoming a parent is contrary to that >person's interests. Servants of Yves in particular are likely to detect >the fact that unexpected parenthood, while it might be contrary to the >host's *wishes*, might nevertheless be the best possible thing for her or >him spiritually. Recall the Catholic Church's attitude about new life vs. >contraception, and recall also that that two AAs are personally invested >in making Catholicism *the* human religion. As for the specific matter of >Eli, recall that the AA of Creation is strongly in favor of human birth; >this wouldn't be the first time an AA's Word overrides an angel's normal >dissonance condition. OK so Im not one of the books editors or canon people, as i like to call them, but from what I have read.... wouldn't an angel's resonance and dissonance override an AA's word. I would think that adhereing to your nature would take precedence to listening to your "boss". Sure you may get chewed out by him, but if you fail to act as your nature/resonance demands then you begin to become dissonance ridden. And thats one step closer to falling/redeeming. So thats my thoughts...anyone else? Well im outta here Endlsskid ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:03:12 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, York H. Dobyns wrote: > > > This is inconsistent only if becoming a parent is contrary to that > > person's interests. > > I disagree. The rules say that it's dissonant for a Kyrio to harm a host, > not that it's dissonant for the Kyrio to harm the host unless the harm > will do the host good in the long run. > *sigh* I'm going to get flamed for this... But... What definition of 'harm' fits here? Pregnancy, especially towards the end, a heckuva lot of pain and permanent changes to the body- new chemical balances to deal with having a child, the skin, muscles, and whatnot stretched all over the place... But is it harm? What determines 'harm'- if it's just pain and suffering, no Kyrio could ever, for example, get a host to excercize! Obviously, that's not the same scale of pain here- and I believe the wording is "A Kyriotate generates dissonane wwhen he leaves a body in worse shape than he found it." anyway. So there would not be any dissonance for getting your host pregnant- and then staying the WHOLE nine months. I mean, through the delivery, etc- UNLESS the Kyriotate left early on, and ONLY if for (whatever reason) it would somehow leave their host in the same or better condition after being pregnant. Someone who feels she can never have a baby, for example, and her life is filled with constant gloom over that- I have a friend who believes this, and I *know* it drives her to tears... Anyway, I'm rambling again. Right, points a) Harm is subjective. It's not necessarily pain and anguish. If the Kyriotate got, for example, a woman pregnant and abandoned her, and she would be worse off for this, it's definitely dissonance. On the other hand, if being pregnant is what would have happened anyway, does not harm her- and I'm not including pain in harm. Ask David about that- Pain can bring growth. Not that I like it or am volunteering for pregnancy, nor am I deprecating the intense agony of childbirth- I have a lot of respect for anyone who goes through it, especially since I'm never going to have to. Um. I'm rambling again. Again. b) Kyriotates have to ensure that their hosts are not worse off then they started- and pain has nothing to do with that. Nothing at all. A pregnancy is worse, better, or indifferent to a person's condition subjectively... Although... I'm quite sure that DURING childbirth the mother would have some definite opinions about it... Um... I had other points, but I seem to have rambled past them... *turns on his Olfanim of Fire attunement and ducks* > Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com - -- Brian A.H. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:33:55 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Shedim (the 5th column) >jo >Shedim just wanna have fun! So, is it just me. . . Or are there a lot of really twisted, evil, Shedim running around in the UK? *grin* Cool writeup, keep it up. . . - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:40:11 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Some questions about 'The Game' >First, Asmodeus's "opposite number" is well known for sending out his >servants in threes. (If you really wanted to play up the idea that the >Inquisition isn't that different from the Game, you might have them BOTH >send three.) Just for fun and amusement, in my recent campaign 'Solitaire' (http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine), I not only had a Domician Triad show up, but a Triumverate of Gamesters. Though most people only ever saw two, since the Balseraph of the group was working 'undercover'. . . - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:41:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Renegades on the run (and the Song of Correspondence) On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Adam Canning wrote: > I take the sentence: "The song of correspondence can also be performed on > an intended destination, effectively shortening the distance to that > location to 0 for purposes of the song of motion." [Libra Canticorum p66] I think they meant to say "...effectively shortening the distance [from your current location]..." rather than "...distance [from any location]...". A distance by definition goes from A to B, rather than just "to B". They assumed that the "A" in question was obvious. It obviously wasn't :-) Then again, of anyone can abuse the wording of the rules like this, it's the Demon Prince of the Game! Not having the L. Cant., I have a question: does Correspondance only reduce distance in this way for 'the song of motion'? If so, which song(s) of motion? Could Asmodeus use it to reduce the distance to a given renegade for the telekinesis-style song of motion, then strike their vessel repeatedly against the ground until they give in? Could he use it to reduce the range for any other songs and/or abilities (like celestial attack range }:-) whatsoever? Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:13:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios At 2:03 PM -0800 1/15/99, B.H. wrote: >Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >> >> On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, York H. Dobyns wrote: >> >> > This is inconsistent only if becoming a parent is contrary to that >> > person's interests. >> >> I disagree. The rules say that it's dissonant for a Kyrio to harm a host, >> not that it's dissonant for the Kyrio to harm the host unless the harm >> will do the host good in the long run. > >*sigh* I'm going to get flamed for this... But... What definition of >'harm' fits here? Pregnancy, especially towards the end, a heckuva >lot of pain and permanent changes to the body- new chemical balances >to deal with having a child, the skin, muscles, and whatnot stretched >all over the place... Bones, too -- the little bit of cartildge that bonds the halves of the hips together softens, allowing the hip-bones to spread apart a little. And it doesn't go back all the way. (This is how they can tell from a skeleton whether someone's had a kid, and part of the difference between 'girls' and 'womens' sizes in clothing.) >[...] "A Kyriotate generates dissonane wwhen he >leaves a body in worse shape than he found it." anyway. So there >would not be any dissonance for getting your host pregnant- and then >staying the WHOLE nine months. Which is, by the mechanics, not possible IIRC. >a) Harm is subjective. It's not necessarily pain and anguish. If >the Kyriotate got, for example, a woman pregnant and abandoned her, >and she would be worse off for this, it's definitely dissonance. [...] If she gets kicked out of her house, say... >Not that I like it or am >volunteering for pregnancy, nor am I deprecating the intense agony of >childbirth- Actually, it depends on the birth. My mother says I was easy, though I was nine pounds and 3 ounces. My brother, however, was 10 pounds, 8 ounces, and had his arm wrapped over the top of his head. (She also claims an OOBE on that one.) >b) Kyriotates have to ensure that their hosts are not worse off then >they started- and pain has nothing to do with that. Nothing at all. If a Kyrio got dissonant from getting someone pregnant, it wouldn't be from the pain of childbirth -- it would be because they essentially put the host in a condition that could be life-threatening. (The less medical care, the more dangerous.) The way I'd rule it, I think, is to apply the Mercurian of Destiny attunement rules for the duration of the pregnancy -- as the GM. If, left to her own devices, the mother will be worse off (thrown out of the house, complications of pregnancy, complications of childbirth, complications of abortion, complications of incompatible blood types, etc.) at the end of the 9 months, then whong, dissonance. Right as the Kyriotate leaves. If not, then not. But any Kyriotate who takes "no dissonance" for granted is skating on the edge, and if it wasn't a consensual thing (such as "Oh, sure, we're trying to get pregnant anyway, and we don't mind sharing.")... Their Archangel should worry that the Kyrio is starting to treat its hosts like disposable cars. Disposable, *stolen* cars.... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:31:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Reading the Angelic Player's Guide At 4:15 PM -0500 1/15/99, Endlsskid@aol.com wrote: > OK so Im not one of the books editors or canon people, as i like to call >them, but from what I have read.... wouldn't an angel's resonance and >dissonance override an AA's word. Actually, no -- they're both roughly equal. Some Princes and Archangels give out attunements that allow "loopholes" in Band/Choir nature -- Dominic, Kobal, and Saminga come to mind. But otherwise -- don't get trapped between your nature's dissonance and your Superior's dissonance. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:20:01 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Black Ops? (was Humanity) >At 9:34 PM -0500 1/7/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >[5 or less Forces = un-enlightened mundane human] >>Perhaps therefore the Black Ops *must* be enlightened? > >They know about the aliens/critters/etc. in their "native" book -- >if translated to IN, then yes, I'd say they were somehow enlightened >and non-mundane. Hmmm... yeah. "Somehow enlightened" I guess it would depend on how you thought of enlightened... Yeah, they've had to be enlightened somehow in oder to be that powerful in the IN universe... Perhaps Argus is made up of Celestials... Or Ethereal Gods... >Soldiers don't *have* to serve Heaven or Hell or an ethereal -- it's just >what celestials call 6-Force humans. Ah.. Ok. If Black Ops existed in the IN >universe, and the celestials knew about it, then they'd probably have >some *other* name... Yeah, like "trouble" >I dunno -- can it? That'd be up to the In Nomine Canon masters. While the characters could probably be canon, the monsters... Well, could the monsters be within canon? I'd say no, thanks to Uriel. Unless Jordi had been omehow able to hide her werewolves, ice weasels, and breeder bugs. And Aliens... Aliens in In Nomine? :) >>Then again, why should I worry about canon, anyway? > >Bingo. Heh heh. >Trained by a Master? Or call it a less-common way of acquiring >an extra Force -- via *excessive* training and chuck the spiritual >growth. O;> Who needs it, anyway. :) >>>It's human range, but you have to be an exceptional human -- either >>>by trading off in other realms, or by being scary. >> >>And the Black Ops -are- scary. :) > >Exactly! >>Cool. Maybe I *will* run In Nomine Black Ops. :) Dude.... >>Thanks, Beth!! I am *so* happy. > >Glad to be of help! I'm sure you won't mind it when I ask a little >favor later... Oh dear... - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:36:09 EST From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios Since the host won't remember having sex, I would guess that there's going to be at least some emotional problems unless the host was trying to get pregnant. Especially in this day and age with the worry of STDs, any unexpected pregnancy (especially if the host isn't particularly sexually active) is going to probably entail some testing for STDs which would cause some worrying. The host may even believe that she's been raped and is blocking the memory of it, leading to even more anguish. Any Kyrio doing that sort of thing is asking for a Fall with me as GM. S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:47:43 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim (the 5th column) Very, very, cool, jo. >It's fairly clear just from looking at the various superiors that Shedim >tend to come in two main types (ie. one more than Impudites and several less >than Habbalah). - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:53:04 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Some questions about 'The Game' >>>But your partner gets 2 Essence at dusk, and can give you one -- if >>>at no other time, then when you let Humanity lapse for a few seconds >>>to accept the Essence. >>> >> >>"Partner"? Did I miss something? Are Asmodeus's demons usually in >>pairs? > >Not necessarily, but it's not impossible. Well no, but you stated "your partner" as though it was assumed. I was just confused. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:20:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Some questions about 'The Game' At 8:53 PM -0500 1/15/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>>>But your partner gets 2 Essence at dusk, and can give you one -- if >>>>at no other time, then when you let Humanity lapse for a few seconds >>>>to accept the Essence. >>> >>>"Partner"? Did I miss something? Are Asmodeus's demons usually in >>>pairs? >> >>Not necessarily, but it's not impossible. > >Well no, but you stated "your partner" as though it was assumed. I was >just confused. Well, for Humanity to be useful for indefinite durations, you *need* a partner. Therefore, it's assumed. Or something like that... (And it takes two to watch each other and all that.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 21:57 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >I can see that. "But, Perry, how are we going to buy over 100 skills >with only 36 points?" >"Well... uh... I've made a few compressions..." At the moment, I'm thinking that the GURPS versions of IN-style characters will all have 100 "non-racial" points -- i.e., not in basic celestial and choir/band-related "built-in" features. This provides the best simulation of the IN universe. GMs can also choose a more GURPS-classical fixed point total for all characters, but the result won't look as much like the IN univere, since the choirs and bands are not all of equal power, nor are all the Superior attunements worth equal values. >>A problem I'm currently wrestling with.... The realms themselves are >>there in the conversion, of course, but they're somewhat less evident >in >>impact on the characters. At the moment, it looks like they'll mostly >>affect Songs, and occasionally attunements. In a lot of places where >IN >>mechanics use " Forces", I've been using constants. > >Hrm. Constants that might be based upon something that could be either >raised or lowered for points. Like Blood Pool is GURPS Vampire:TM. >It's kinda messy, though. There's no non-messy way around it that I can see. Adding new stats to GURPS is pretty much forbidden -- that's the most obvious alternative In many places, we either use (ST/4) or (IQ/4) or (Will/4) to approximate Force values -- inverting the primary and derived attributes, basically. >Crap. Maybe 10 for the constant for humans' forces (since GURPS is >human centered)... Yeah, de-emphaszing forces... woah... The basic problem is that regular humans (5-Force), Soldiers (6-Force) and celestials (9-Force) don't track linearly with *anything* in GURPS very well. I was toying with using total point values to estimate total Forces (something like /20), but it generates busted answers at other points in the scale, still. So I'm tring to weasel out of the Force problem in other ways. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 22:01 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN > Heaven-based games, IMHO, need a grander, more noble feeling. There seems to be a lot of divided feeling on these issues. Some of the variations will probably get discussed somewhere, though. Probably not more than a sidebar, though -- our main purpose here is to translate the IN core book, not extend it. >However, something I'd perssonally be interested in seeing are tips on >running an IN game in different historical eras. It will probably get touched on, but I think this really needs an IN supplement first, to define the IN background in some of the historical eras. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 99 22:06 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Flavour of GURPS IN >> (Also, celestials probably won't have >> enormously-higher hit points than humans, though the occasional >> combat-monster may have bought a lot of Extra Hit Points.) > > Now why is that? Partly because a lot of typical celestials don't have hordes of hit points, and partly because they can buy them for their vessels. > I for one, as a Houserule, tend to give my Celestials >-more- Body Hits than the game usually allows for starting off. I mean, >you're an -angel- or a -demon-, I'd expect you to be a little bit better >than a human in a lot of ways. Then you can easily house-rule that all vessels start with 20 Extra Hot Points, and give the players that many extra points. Remember, also, we're doing the *canon* game, not your houserules version. In the canon game, there are a fair number of celestials who don't have many more hit points than a human. Also, celestials will probably have an average HT of 14, which makes them hard to kill easily -- a lot harder than the average human. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:06:05 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> Whine about GURPS Walter Wrote >There's no non-messy way around it that I can see. Adding new stats to >GURPS is pretty much forbidden To be honest that's a damn shame. My biggest gripe about GURPS is that although it claims to be Urniversal the fact that it has only 4 stats makes it not reflect many games worlds where other measures of a character (Stats) are very important. Simply having Perception and/or Will based on INT (IMO) in no way fits with the IN universe - why should an Ethereally strong character be strong Celestially? I have played games of based on GURPS where the GM added more mental stats (I think it was one for Psionics and one for Magic) which worked quit well and because everyone had those stats all it did was to slightly increase point totals, sure it wasn't cannon but it worked and that's all that matters. I understand that if you did add other Stats it would stop using any random selection of books together without slightly messing around with stuff from one book so it fitted with another (which seems to be the philosophy of GURPS) but, but, but, I just don't think it would feel like IN if you remove stuff based on Forces, made Celestial about as easy to kill as a human and as for making Essence based on Fatigue!!! Ramesh ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1097 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.