From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jan 17 11:04:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18282 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:04:46 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA04922 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:46:03 -0600 Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:46:03 -0600 Message-Id: <199901171646.KAA04922@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1098 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, January 17 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1098 In this digest: Re: IN> Shedim redeeming Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements Re: IN> IN - GURPS Re: IN> Discord and Rites Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Re: IN> In Nomine Black Ops? (was Humanity) IN> Latest Superior of the production line IN> Song of Correspondence IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios Re: IN> Latest Superior of the production line IN> Range of Songs Re: IN> Range of Songs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:15:47 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Shedim redeeming On Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 10:37:16AM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > -Every- demon exists in opposition to God's will. Calabim -kill- > >people, > > So do Malakim. (Or Cherubim, or Seraphim, or Ofanim, or Kyriotates, > or Elohim...) > > Mercurians don't kill *humans*, at least... > Or Ethereals or animals. I think the distinction is that in general angels don't go around unmaking people or objects, or killing people because they've had a bad day and they want some stress relief. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. (recovering from loss of external mail) - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:44:35 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS On Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 04:06:05PM +0000, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > GURPS) but, but, but, I just don't think it would feel like IN if you > remove stuff based on Forces, made Celestial about as easy to kill as a > human and as for making Essence based on Fatigue!!! into mad incoherent ramblings> > Note: I am not a player of GURPS, and nor am I fond of having only four attributes. Nevertheless, I can understand perfectly why those wanting to do a GURPS IN conversion wouldn't want to tinker with the basic structure of GURPS. I agree that the downgrading of Forces has a large bearing on the game universe, but it's a problematic issue, since one of the most frequently raised objections to the In Nomine system is that humans can't advance beyond certain rather narrow bounds. As to your other points, I've been thinking vaguely about doing wargame-type rules for IN mass combats (for about a day now) and I thought Essence was the perfect match for Fatigue. This was before seeing any reference to such thoughts on the list. And some Celestials aren't any harder to kill than humans. My favourite PC has 9 positive and 3 negative hit points, to a CorpForce 2 human's average 8 positive and 4 negative hit points. I'm not going to judge how well this area maps unless and until I see the GURPS IN version of it, and I might prefer that rendering to the IN system's way of handling it (which is also one of the more unpopular IN rules). Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:49:49 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Missing Choir/Band Attunements On Fri, Jan 15, 1999 at 01:26:15AM -0500, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > I'd say if Vapula did create Calabim, their attunement would be something > along the lines of a more controlled resonance. Maybe they could absorb the > failed entropy attack back into themselves without dissonance, similar to what > Andrealphus gives his Habbalah. Well, actually the Habbalite of Lust attunement makes the Habbalite's resonance behave more like a Calabite's. But in general I think that if you want to make a Calabite of Technology attunement you should just take the information-granting part of the Balseraph of Technology attunement from them and give it to the Calabim. It's a perfect analogue to the Calabite of Death and Calabite of Nightmares attunement, and matches their Band nature well, whereas it doesn't match the Balseraph nature in any way whatsoever (IMO). Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:33:23 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> IN - GURPS On Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 12:12:00PM -0500, Walter Milliken wrote: > > Just what do you believe is wrong with the Kyrio advanced resonance? It > >seemed to follow pretty well to me. > > 1) It makes the Kyrio of Destiny attunement practically irrelevant. This has been stated a number of times. I don't agree with it. Any attunement that gives an automatic check digit of 6 on a check against a non-primary Celestial attribute at -4 is damn useful. It's certainly more useful than the Shedite of Fate attunement. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:38:10 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Discord and Rites On Wed, Jan 13, 1999 at 03:09:56PM +0000, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >And orders Servitors of the Game to watch each other. And few Servitors of > >the Game are averse to inventing Renegades where none exist. If I were > >running In Nomine, I'd take pains to make it evident that most Renegades > >never set foot on Earth. > > Except for the Marches (which for many demons isn't an option) where do > Renegages go if not on Earth. Surely not Hell, they'd get caught way too > easily. > That's more or less the point. Hell is a cesspit of treachery, and if you aren't very sharp, then it's all too easy for an enemy of yours to invent evidence of treachery on your part, and you'll be arrested as a Renegade before you even realised you were one. It isn't just the Game who can do this. Most if not all of the Princes should have their own security forces. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:33:41 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Kevin Walsh wrote on 16 January 1999 >Note: I am not a player of GURPS, and nor am I fond of having only four >attributes. Nevertheless, I can understand perfectly why those wanting to >do a GURPS IN conversion wouldn't want to tinker with the basic structure >of GURPS. Yeah I understand thet messing about with GURPS basic structure would be a pain in the proverbials to do. But changing the cost of Will and Perception so they cost somewhere near the same as stats would be a good idea. >I agree that the downgrading of Forces has a large bearing on the game >universe, but it's a problematic issue, since one of the most frequently >raised objections to the In Nomine system is that humans can't advance >beyond certain rather narrow bounds. Humans can advance to more reasonable levels if the have slightly more than 4*Force in a particular area, and if a human does advance to such a level where they go beyond those narrow boundries they can advance (it should be made damn difficult but it is possible). The only real limits are on humans are 10s, the whole Black OPs disscussion dealt with this issue very cooly. >As to your other points, I've been thinking vaguely about doing >wargame-type rules for IN mass combats (for about a day now) and I thought >Essence was the perfect match for Fatigue. This was before seeing any >reference to such thoughts on the list. I don't know much about wargames but my point was that you don't recover Essence by having a bit of a rest, using Essence as a measure of Fatigue *may* work fine in a war game where you don't have time to rest, I really wouldn't know. And some Celestials aren't any >harder to kill than humans. My favourite PC has 9 positive and 3 negative >hit points, to a CorpForce 2 human's average 8 positive and 4 negative hit >points. I agree that many Celestials shouldn't be able to take more damage than a human because they aren't combat monsters (and I don't see IN as a very Combat based game) but the ones which are combat based should be pretty obscene, they are the emmisaries of Heaven and Hell after all. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:40:56 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > > Kevin Walsh wrote on 16 January 1999 > > >Note: I am not a player of GURPS, and nor am I fond of having only four > >attributes. Nevertheless, I can understand perfectly why those wanting to > >do a GURPS IN conversion wouldn't want to tinker with the basic structure > >of GURPS. > > Yeah I understand thet messing about with GURPS basic structure would be a > pain in the proverbials to do. But changing the cost of Will and > Perception so they cost somewhere near the same as stats would be a good > idea. Actually (*tries to resist going off topic, but...*) If you read Compendium I there are rules for adding Will and Perception as attributes. I have a problem with this, as it devalues IQ (to me, anyway) A further problem with GURPS conversions is the HT stat, which is completely subsumed into the ST stat for IN purposes, but that can be dealt with rather easily. If you're going to start playing around with the attributes you're going to have to separate precision from agility under DX anyway (I propose Manual DX vs. regular DX, already there). It just means that GURPS IN is hard to use with other GURPS games; but this can be dealt with very simply by either a) requiring that your HT be the same as your ST in GURPS terms; b) simply translating it when dealing with another world (which kinda messes with the point values)... > > >I agree that the downgrading of Forces has a large bearing on the game > >universe, but it's a problematic issue, since one of the most frequently > >raised objections to the In Nomine system is that humans can't advance > >beyond certain rather narrow bounds. Maybe, instead of Forces determining your attributes, your 'forces rating' for whatever purpose is based on an average of scores or x + y scores x 4/10 (IN human average divided by GURPS human average) divided by four, ending up with 1/10 x+y scores? > > Humans can advance to more reasonable levels if the have slightly more than > 4*Force in a particular area, and if a human does advance to such a level > where they go beyond those narrow boundries they can advance (it should be > made damn difficult but it is possible). The only real limits are on > humans are 10s, the whole Black OPs disscussion dealt with this issue very > cooly. > > >As to your other points, I've been thinking vaguely about doing > >wargame-type rules for IN mass combats (for about a day now) and I thought > >Essence was the perfect match for Fatigue. This was before seeing any > >reference to such thoughts on the list. > > I don't know much about wargames but my point was that you don't recover > Essence by having a bit of a rest, using Essence as a measure of Fatigue > *may* work fine in a war game where you don't have time to rest, I really > wouldn't know. > Actually.... There are some rules for making fatigue for Powers separate from fatigue for endurance. Maybe all of the inhabitants of this world/dimension have a little something extra? The ability to effect die rolls at a cost of a certain amount of essence? Furthermore, doesn't the book state that essence-less people feel down on their luck, tired, exhausted? > And some Celestials aren't any > >harder to kill than humans. My favourite PC has 9 positive and 3 negative > >hit points, to a CorpForce 2 human's average 8 positive and 4 negative hit > >points. > *blink blink* What are positive and negative hit points? > I agree that many Celestials shouldn't be able to take more damage than a > human because they aren't combat monsters (and I don't see IN as a very > Combat based game) but the ones which are combat based should be pretty > obscene, they are the emmisaries of Heaven and Hell after all. I think that Celestials should be able to take more damage in some situations- after all, these bodies were made for them. They also work more efficiently (only need to breathe, I think). > > Ramesh - -- Brian A.H. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:09:58 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS On Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 12:40:56PM -0800, B.H. wrote: > > And some Celestials aren't any > > >harder to kill than humans. My favourite PC has 9 positive and 3 negative > > >hit points, to a CorpForce 2 human's average 8 positive and 4 negative hit > > >points. > > *blink blink* What are positive and negative hit points? > The standard Body hits formula represents the amount of damage you can take before falling unconscious. In addition to that, you can take a further (Vessel * Strength) or ((Toughness + 1) * Strength) hits before you're actually dead. I refer to these as positive and negative hits, because the 0 level is the Unconsciousness Threshold. (They're also one of the reasons why the Malakite of Protection attunement is so powerful.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "In our revolutionary court we are guided not by articles of the law and not by the degree of extenuating circumstances; in the tribunal we must proceed on the basis of considerations of expediency." the Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:07:56 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Brian A.H. wrote on 16 January 1999 >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> Kevin Walsh wrote on 16 January 1999 >> >Note: I am not a player of GURPS, and nor am I fond of having only four >> >attributes. Nevertheless, I can understand perfectly why those wanting to >> >do a GURPS IN conversion wouldn't want to tinker with the basic structure >> >of GURPS. >> >> Yeah I understand thet messing about with GURPS basic structure would be a >> pain in the proverbials to do. But changing the cost of Will and >> Perception so they cost somewhere near the same as stats would be a good >> idea. > >Actually (*tries to resist going off topic, but...*) It's not *really* going of topic is it? If you read >Compendium I there are rules for adding Will and Perception as >attributes. Cool! I have a problem with this, as it devalues IQ (to me, >anyway) Yeah, but in IN IQ is less important because there are other equally important measures of a charcter so the importance gets shared out. And having one mental Stat bothers me. A further problem with GURPS conversions is the HT stat, >which is completely subsumed into the ST stat for IN purposes, but >that can be dealt with rather easily. I don't know much about GURPS but IIRC animals have 2 separte HT scores one for HT rolls and one for damage they can take. IIRC Elephants can take some thing like 200 pts of damage!!! If you're going to start >playing around with the attributes you're going to have to separate >precision from agility under DX anyway (I propose Manual DX vs. >regular DX, already there). Hmmm, doesn't Precision also represent ability to concentrate and stuff? It just means that GURPS IN is hard to >use with other GURPS games; Yeah that is the main problem with my argument. but this can be dealt with very simply by >either a) requiring that your HT be the same as your ST in GURPS >terms; Hmmm... they are both covered by Strength in In aren't they? b) simply translating it when dealing with another world (which >kinda messes with the point values)... 2 seconds after understanding what you were getting at I thought of that and the flaw. Ick this conversion stuff is difficult. >> >I agree that the downgrading of Forces has a large bearing on the game >> >universe, but it's a problematic issue, since one of the most frequently >> >raised objections to the In Nomine system is that humans can't advance >> >beyond certain rather narrow bounds. > >Maybe, instead of Forces determining your attributes, your 'forces >rating' for whatever purpose is based on an average of scores or x + y >scores x 4/10 (IN human average divided by GURPS human average) >divided by four, ending up with 1/10 x+y scores? I don't think GURPS and IN stats convert linearly, I don't know GURPS enough to know. But the idea sounds good. >Actually.... There are some rules for making fatigue for Powers >separate from fatigue for endurance. Oh. Maybe all of the inhabitants of >this world/dimension have a little something extra? The ability to >effect die rolls at a cost of a certain amount of essence? Yeah, possibly. >Furthermore, doesn't the book state that essence-less people feel down >on their luck, tired, exhausted? Hmmm... I think that's flavour text which is pseudo-cannon (or whatever the proper term is). But I'm cool with it being thought as some kind of emotional/spirital/whatever fatigue as long as you can't get it back by resting. >> And some Celestials aren't any >> >harder to kill than humans. My favourite PC has 9 positive and 3 negative >> >hit points, to a CorpForce 2 human's average 8 positive and 4 negative hit >> >points. >> > >*blink blink* What are positive and negative hit points? When you have taken a number of hits equal to your Body you are unconscious, not dead. So I presume what was meant by positive hit points is the amount of hits it takes to be made unconscious and negitive hit points is the level where you are dead. >> I agree that many Celestials shouldn't be able to take more damage than a >> human because they aren't combat monsters (and I don't see IN as a very >> Combat based game) but the ones which are combat based should be pretty >> obscene, they are the emmisaries of Heaven and Hell after all. > >I think that Celestials should be able to take more damage in some >situations- after all, these bodies were made for them. They also >work more efficiently (only need to breathe, I think). Yeah I agree on an in game universe level, but classifying different types of damage might get a little complex for playing purposes. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:33:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS At 10:07 PM +0000 1/16/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: [...] >2 seconds after understanding what you were getting at I thought of that >and the flaw. Ick this conversion stuff is difficult. You're telling *us*! O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:20:00 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Whine about GURPS Elizabeth McCoy wrote on 16 January 1999 >At 10:07 PM +0000 1/16/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >[...] >>2 seconds after understanding what you were getting at I thought of that >>and the flaw. Ick this conversion stuff is difficult. > >You're telling *us*! > >O:> Somehow, I knew you'd say that! Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 01:08:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Black Ops? (was Humanity) On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Perry Lloyd wrote: [Of IN Black Ops] > That'd be up to the In Nomine Canon masters. While the characters could > probably be canon, the monsters... Well, could the monsters be within > canon? I'd say no, thanks to Uriel. Unless Jordi had been omehow able > to hide her werewolves, ice weasels, and breeder bugs. And Aliens... > Aliens in In Nomine? :) No, no. What if the MIBs aren't up against the 'bugs' in this campaign... They know there are angels, they know there are demons, and they're f**ked if they'll let either of them influence the President. They're 650 points because these are the guys who go one-on-one with a Baron of Hell before breakfast :-) Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:54:43 PST From: "Khaos Spawn" Subject: IN> Latest Superior of the production line Hey all... I went off on holidays for 2 weeks and when I got back I found a lovely little christmas present from all you guys... 1000+ emails to wade my way through... Thanx a bundle :) Anyway, I've been working on a Demon Prince and I'd like to run him past those of you who have the time for a bit of positive (or perhaps not quite so positive) criticism. He's currently located on my website at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/3496/shaftiel.htm Have a look and let me know... Casey, Balser... Ummm... Seraphim... of Gabriel... Yeah... No really I am!! (I'm plural if I truly believe I am) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:14:30 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Correspondence >>>Note for example that Celestial Tongues also makes no specific statement of crossing realms but also states it will get to the target almost invariably. Is this plane limited?<<< I believe it says "wherever he is," implying it can cross planes. >>>I take the sentence: "The song of correspondence can also be performed on an intended destination, effectively shortening the distance to that location to 0 for purposes of the song of motion." [Libra Canticorum p66] to mean that songs of motion that move things to that location for the duration of the song of correspondence act as if the range was 0. I.e. are in range for any Celestial Song of Motion transferring items to that location. <<< Correct. The point is, you have to be able to perform the Song of Correspondence _on_ said destination, which you can't do if you don't know _where_ that destination is. >>>But the destination for the jump is here.<<< That applies to the Celestial Song of Motion -- not the Song of Correspondence. You can target the person, in which case he needs to be in range of the Song of Motion, or you can target his location to make the range 0, but then you need to be able to use the Song of Correspondence on that location. >>>True I don't know where the origin for the jump is, but the song of correspondence enables me to grab someone and bring them to me, and I don't need to know where they are to do that. >>> Incorrect. >You can target the _person_ with Correspondence, and then bring him to you >with the Celestial Song of Motion, _if_ he's within range of the latter. >But to make his range 0 (so that he's automatically within range of the >Song of Motion), you have to also target his location. As written only, If I wish to use the song of motion to go to his location do I need to do that.<<< Incorrect. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:19:49 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Pregnancy and Kyrios I'd say it's dissonant to leave a host pregnant, _unless_ the host wanted to become pregnant and pregnancy will not be obviously detrimental (i.e. a teenage girl might _want_ to get pregnant from her boyfriend because she thinks that will make him marry her and they'll live happily ever after, but the actual consequences would probably be far less happy...) In other words, a Kyrio could help a human who wants it become pregnant (celestial fertility clinic!), but you can't just leave a host pregnant without regard for the consequences. Even a Kyriotate of Creation should suffer dissonance for leaving a host pregnant with a child she probably won't be able to properly care for. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:49:26 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Latest Superior of the production line On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Khaos Spawn wrote: > Anyway, I've been working on a Demon Prince and I'd like to run him past > those of you who have the time for a bit of positive (or perhaps not > quite so positive) criticism. Not bad, though there's a lot of themetic overlap with Alaemon, DP of Secrets. The word "Shadows" itself, where it DOESN'T overlap "Secrets", doesn't seem to have a lot of real demonic potential. A few suggestions, though... The Impudites don't have an attunement! If he uses Impudites (which you say he does), they should have an attunement. Perhaps they can use their resonance to Steal Essence from someone without charming them first, as long as the victim cannot see the Impudite? It opens up a HUGE can of worms if you say this guy is allied to Lucifer directly. It's your campaign and you can do what you want, but I'd strongly suggest changing that. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:02:25 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: IN> Range of Songs >Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:27:58 -0500 >From: Elizabeth McCoy >It's in the errata for the book now. So for the record which of these songs [some of which just state any range or target must be on such and such a plane] can have effects from one plane to another and which can't? Affinity Corporeal and Celestial Attraction Calling Direction Celestial Draining Corporeal Dreaming Celestial Fire Location Celestial Nemesis Projection Symphony Celestial Tongues Celestial Unity Correspondence Daydreams Ethereal Disjunction Celestial Oblivion The Trisagion Castling Spirit Speech Exchange Celestial Forgetting Celestial Water Also what's the definition of plane for this rule? 1 Heaven and Hell, The Marches, Earth [Total 3] 2 Heaven and Hell, The Marches, Earth, Limbo [Total 4] 3 Heaven, Earth, the Marches, Hell, Limbo [Total 5] 4 Heaven, Earth, The Vale, Limbo, The Far Marches, Hell [Total 6] 5 Some other list Adam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:45:23 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Range of Songs At 10:02 AM -0500 1/17/99, Adam Canning wrote: >>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:27:58 -0500 >>From: Elizabeth McCoy >>It's in the errata for the book now. Which, if people look, says that Songs don't cross realms _unless the description of the Song says otherwise_. It sets the default-conditions. >So for the record which of these songs [some of which just state any range >or target must be on such and such a plane] can have effects from one plane >to another and which can't? You're lucky I'm trying to dodge working on Servitorum. >Affinity >Corporeal and Celestial Attraction If something's on another plane, then it can hardly be tugged in that "direction." Celestial Attraction, in the Songbook, clearly states it will reveal that the thing is on another plane. Since Affinity is based on Corporeal Attraction, it follows the same rules. >Calling "The realm of the Song determines which plane the singer can call TO" [emphasis mine]. It obviously can move between planes. >Direction Corporeal Direction makes the person more "visible" to various Songs and resonances -- if the Song or resonance would move between planes, then okay. But I don't think any of them do more than say, "Not This Plane." Ethereal Direction is centered on the performer, and is never *operating* across realms. >Celestial Draining This is blatently centered on a specific area. It might catch someone *in celestial FORM*, but no one in the celestial *realm* (if it's performed in the corporeal). Note that being in celestial form is NOT the same as being on the celestial plane. >Corporeal Dreaming This blatently states that it works like the Dream Walking attunement (p. 110 of IN), which states, "The angel must be asleep". I.e., you have to be in the Marches already. >Celestial Fire This explicitly states that entranced people may see glimpses of the celestial or ethereal planes. >Location Look at the descriptions of the various realms of Song -- if you have one person in one realm and one in another, then yes, you can create a bridge. >Celestial Nemesis This is centered on the performer, and therefore does not reach through realms. If the danger is a flight of Malakim/Calabim about to come down a Tether, then the "direction" is for where they're going to appear. >Projection This specificially says it can cross realms. >Symphony Ethereal might be able to reach between realms, at the GM's option, and celestial almost certainly can. (C'mon, this is a mongo obnoxious Song -- the GM is the only limit.) >Celestial Tongues You're being silly -- of course it can get through. "It's [] a celestial message in a bottle which seldom fails to wash up on the right shore." Between that and the "loose it into the cosmos, where it makes its way directly to the mind of the receiver," it becomes blatently clear that it can cross realms. >Celestial Unity All participants in the group must be touching (must be in the same realm to perform it initially). The result is like a temporary Kyriotate -- and Kyriotates can divide themselves between realms, so one member could go celestial and ascend to the celestial plane, with the standard Kyriotate-style slowdown and communication with the rest of "themself." >Correspondence A bit less clear. However, it refers to "at any distance," and "at great distances," "regardless of range," "within range" and "effective shortening the distance." All of those refer to physical measurements, not cross-realm stuff. Further, the Celestial Song of Motion only refers to *miles* at maximum -- it clearly cannot be used to "teleport" oneself from the corporeal plane to the celestial plane, and therefore Correspondence cannot be used with Celestial Motion to do anything like that either. >Daydreams This one is unclear about whether the subject needs to be within sight. I'd say that the performer needs to be able to perceive the subject in some way (possibly drawing upon the resonance modifiers on p. 57 of the main book). If that means of perception allows cross-planer Song-performance, then it can be performed cross-plane. >Ethereal Disjunction This clearly states that it sends a target's mind to the Marches. >Celestial Oblivion The target must be within sight. >The Trisagion It invokes the presence of the Almighty -- if the GM rules that this requires crossing planes, then, why, it does. Of course, if you use it for frivolous purposes, the Seraphim Council will spank you. >Castling "allows [] to instantly reverse their physical locations." That's pretty clearly not cross-realm. Switching non-hosts makes reference to the Celestial Song of Motion, which we've already established is not cross-realm. You missed one: Souls. Since it specifically says what it can do, the GM can rule it crosses realms to do it, depending on his or her universe-view. >Spirit Speech The target may be anywhere in the corporeal or ethereal realms -- clearly cross-realm indication. (Strengthened by the Celestial version, where it allows an ethereal spirit to appear in front of the target, and says, "if [used] to manifest on Earth" the ethereal must have a vessel to materilize there -- and the Song's effect then ends. >Exchange Blatently, it crosses realms. It says so. >Celestial Forgetting This affects the entire Symphony, leaving only Superiors unaffected. It crosses realms. >Celestial Water A less clear example. However, water is required at the point of scrying and the point of spying. If the GM rules that this water must be real, physical water (i.e., that there is no true water in the celestial realms, save perhaps for Oannes' Grotto), then it is restricted in realms. If the GM rules that any "water" would work, then one could use dreamscape water, corporeal water, or celestial water-equivalent -- and it would be cross-realm. It does, of course, have other restrictions which are listed in the Song. >Also what's the definition of plane for this rule? >1 Heaven and Hell, The Marches, Earth [Total 3] Using the Song of Location as an example of potential destinations: this is the correct definition of "plane." Songs that allow transport between Heaven and Hell, though, would be rather dangerous to the user, and it may well be that Princes and Archangels shield their Domains with Themes akin to Ethereal and/or Celestial Shields, to prevent oh-so-clever attacks from getting through. (Shielding against Celestial Tongues is both pointless and possibly a problem -- the Superiors might want to receive updates with that Song!) [i.e., if the PCs come up with some incredibly clever way of abusing Songs and attunements or resonances so that they can mount an attack on some Superior's Domain from their own Superior's Domain, the GM should giggle hysterically and say, "Do you really think your Superior didn't try that early on? And that there aren't defenses?" Alternately, the GM may allow the PCs' tactic to seem to work (especially if they haven't bothered to ask their Superior about this plan, or somebody else with sense), and lead them into a nasty vicious trap of some kind which has been in place to catch overconfident celestials for the last several thousand years.] For that matter, ethereal gods may shield *their* Domains similarly. (The Vale is too big and diffuse to be shielded in that fashion -- unless Beleth and Blandine cooperated and established borders and stuff, which will happen when Belial's volcano burns out and the Morningstar fades, probably.) >2 Heaven and Hell, The Marches, Earth, Limbo [Total 4] Limbo cannot be reached by Songs, as per its description: "it is as though the target no longer exists." (page 79 of _Heaven & Hell_) Limbo is *nowhere*. Likewise, only a Song of Self can be used within Limbo -- and that affects only the demonic performer. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1098 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.