From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jan 27 14:13:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13027 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:13:13 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id OAA10222 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:08:40 -0600 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:08:40 -0600 Message-Id: <199901272008.OAA10222@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1106 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, January 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1106 In this digest: Re: IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> Humans and attunements IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:52:04 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements >>Normally, humans can't have Choir or Band attunements. However, there >is >>one rare circumstance that allows it. When a human gets a Force added >by a >>Superior (such as in the creation of a Soldier), the Superior can take >that >>Force _from_ one of his celestial Servitors; if he does that, the human >is >>capable of buying that celestial's Choir/Band attunement. That would imply that a superior was equally able to add a force from a demon of one band to another, and make a servitor who could buy other band attunements.... jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:22:03 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Jo Hart wrote: > That would imply that a superior was equally able to add a force from a > demon of one band to another, and make a servitor who could buy other band > attunements.... A demon can purchase all the band attunements of his Prince which do not depend on that band's resonance, and anyone other than your Prince would be unlikely to bother. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:39:35 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements From: Elizabeth Bartley >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Jo Hart wrote: > >> That would imply that a superior was equally able to add a force from a >> demon of one band to another, and make a servitor who could buy other band >> attunements.... > >A demon can purchase all the band attunements of his Prince which do not >depend on that band's resonance, and anyone other than your Prince would >be unlikely to bother. Sure, but it would be possible. The other prince couuld always take one of the demon's forces, replace it by one of his own choice and slap on an attunement. It'd be weird, but it could happen. Especially funny if the demon in question was balseraphed to forget about it, or not realise. jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:44:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements Jo Hart wrote: > Especially funny if the demon in question was balseraphed to > forget about it, or not realise. "Especially funny." Which means we now know one of the things Kobal does on dreary afternoons. He has probably gone through phases of force-swapping on hapless servitors until he wound up with a number that could not be readily classified into any known band. There we go -- a Kobal-specific band, the Unholy Messes. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:39:48 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements > "Especially funny." Which means we now know one of the things > Kobal does on dreary afternoons. He has probably gone through > phases of force-swapping on hapless servitors until he wound > up with a number that could not be readily classified into > any known band. There we go -- a Kobal-specific band, the > Unholy Messes. Well, that neatly explains about 95% of all of my characters, PC and NPC. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:03:05 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > "Especially funny." Which means we now know one of the things > Kobal does on dreary afternoons. He has probably gone through > phases of force-swapping on hapless servitors until he wound > up with a number that could not be readily classified into > any known band. There we go -- a Kobal-specific band, the > Unholy Messes. Hmmm... start out with one Balseraph, one Habbalite, and one Shedite... swap their forces around until they've got three each of the three types... *grin* Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:32:54 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Humans and attunements >>> Could this be extrapolated to mean that if a Superior is *very* impressed by a mortal (and I can't see DPs doing this unless they have are incredibly impressed) they could Soldier-ise the mortal by giving them one of the Superior's own forces? If they do this, they could (possibly) then grant any of their Choir/Band attunements to the Soldier because Superiors possess all of their Choir/Band attunements.<<< I'm sure that's within a Superior's power. I'd say it's very, very, very rare. Add a few more "very"s for Demon Princes. >>>Leath (Who runs his game according to the rule 'Superiors can break the rules if they want').<<< Sure they can. But when writing canon, we want to maintain some kind of consistency, and occasionally limit the powers even of Superiors. Otherwise, every character creation rule becomes meaningless because someone will say "Well, Archangel/Demon Prince X made an exception..." Needless to say, any GM who wants to break a rule in his campaign and say "Archangel/Demon Prince X made an exception" need not fear the In Nomine Canon Police breaking down his door... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:46:43 +0000 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements At 11:03 PM 1/26/99 , Anders wrote: >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> There we go -- a Kobal-specific band, the >> Unholy Messes. > >Hmmm... start out with one Balseraph, one Habbalite, and one Shedite... >swap their forces around until they've got three each of the three >types... *grin* 1) A demon that believes it's possessing a human (when its actually got a vessel), does terrible things, then punishes itself. 2) A demon possesses a human, doesn't believe others need punishing, and dissolves in a heap of backlash and insanity 3) A demon possesses itself, doesn't believe the situation and attempts to punish the interloper. Three dark humour stooges? Must be worth a giggle. How about the Calibite, Balseraph and Impudite mix? Peter Witney, BA peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk www.kobal.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:48:52 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >>and use >>something like Blood Pool from GURPS Vampire:TM. It's a conversation, >>ain't it? > >Actually, we were specifically told, "Don't do that Blood Pool thing >that got into GURPS V:TM." Oh. :) - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:53:32 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >>I wouldn't do it. Too messy. Me, I'd just set pt cost for Attunements >>and Resonances at the same cost. > >You can do that in your own campaign, of course. As GURPS authors, we >don't have that luxury -- things are supposed to cost what they're worth >(in some sense). This is true. >> Maybe, >>call it 150pts for Resonance, > >Only the Kyrio resonance is that expensive (and more!), most are in the >20-80 point range, as I recall. (They're all done, first pass, and we >hope to get them up for playtest soon, as soon as I get a chance to do >some of the Characters chapter to cover some of the necessary >references.) Ooooh! Cool! >> 75pts per >>Distiction, > >They're generally in about the same range as attunements, or so it >seems. We haven't converted a lot of either, as yet. What about the status included in the distinction? >Rites all cost 1 point/Essence they grant (which is twice the IN value, >due to conversion to match Fatigue). Wow. "Yes, that's right, I'd like to purchase 25pts worth of Rites." >>Songs I'd work through individually, comparing them to supers abilities, >>magical spells and psi. > >Mostly they'll be linked to magic spells, and will use the standard >magic mechanics in GURPS. Hrm. That makes sense. M/VH - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:51:02 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >> As I mentioned elsewhere, the Blood Pool mechanic is one the Powers That >> Be specifically *don't* want to repeat. > >Ya know, that's a damn shame. It was one of the things that made that >conversion work well, and it'd make this conversion work well, too. >Turning Essence into Fatigue is crazy...it'll change *everything* about >the way Essence works - change into something completely different. Who >needs a Rite like 'spend two hours dancing' when you can just spend ten >minutes resting instead? Hear hear. The very idea of running GURPS: In Nomine without Essence is like, well, like playing the symphony without the back-beat. What will *drive* the Symphony in GURPS: In Nomine? Sure, you can *say* that Essence is the same thing as Fatigue, but... it's not. It'd be stupid to think that it is. Like a vampire sucking "Fatigue" out of its victims and then using it to fuel its powers. I noticed in Blood Types that the vampires drain HT, instead. That makes sense, but... if that had been done in the GURPS: VTM conversion... No way. Blood Points is to Gnosis is to Quintessence is to Essence. I see a couple of parallels between Quintessence and Essence, namely (1) raw reality which is used to fuel reality shaping effects (assuming that Songs do, in fact, manipulate the Symphony, as Magick manipuates reality) and (2) its something that only a select group of people can control (namely, the Awakened/Aware or whatever). The idea of converting Quitessence/Essence to Fagitue is just wrong. One should not use the same stat to measure how far you can run with one's spiritual power. "Crap, after running those 23 miles, I don't have enough pts to manipulate the very nature of reality itself. Gee, too bad my Corpus is so closely tied to my Soul." Granted, Celestials shouldn't get tired, but humans do. That means that a human can't run and then call upon his Holy powers to work miracles? Miracles/Songs are being equated with physical work. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:00:22 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >Really what's happening here is more that GURPS Fatigue is being >re-defined as celestial Essence, rather than the other way around. >I.e., celestials think of it as Essence, and it works like Essence in >IN, but it's used for things GURPS already uses Fatigue for (spells, >extra effort, etc.). Humans think of it as fatigue, and for the rare >ones who are active in celestial affairs, find they can use their >personal energy (fatigue) for what celestials use Essence for (primarily >Songs, for Soliders). Sorry, but my physical strength should not determine my Spiritual Power. An angel with ST 10 will have less spiritual energies than one with ST 20? So that's why angels are always working out, they're trying to increase their Essence Pool. >If you compare what Essence and Fatigue do in the two game systems, >you'll find they're pretty much different names for the same thing -- >"personal energy" if you will. The only real difference is the game >mechanics for recovery rates/mechanisms. What about Willpower? Why is physical stamina the measure of personal energy rather than Fatigue? I understand why magic uses fatigue, for much the same reason that magic in Shadowrun can damage the person using it, the mana is being channeled through the person's body. Does this mean that Essence is burning out Song-user's systems? >I think giving celestial characters (only) the slow IN-style recovery >rate fixes *most* of the differences; at least enough so to work well >enough. Yeah, numbers-wise (except for humans) I can see how this works. But in terms of metaphysical rationale, it rubs me the wrong way. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:07:02 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... [Celestials regain essence slowly] >> [Songs in GURPS IN] >> >>Mostly they'll be linked to magic spells, and will use the standard >>magic mechanics in GURPS. > >You realize, of course, that this means that an angel or demon will >be *less* capable of supernatural feats than a standard GURPS magician, >because they regenerate Essence /very slowly/? Ha ha ha... That's a good point. GURPS wizards can cast spells with zero essence (I mean fatigue, sorry) cost simply because of skill. >I for one think this is an extremely silly result. > >If you want to keep blatant, showy effects out of GURPS IN, you should >use a variation of the GURPS Voodoo magic system rather than using the >regular magic system and starving characters for Fatigue. Hrm. Voodoo. I know I've got that book somewhere around here. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:12:16 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >> Even lesser Celestials should probably >>outclass humans in at least -one- major area, depending on said >>Celestial. Why was it felt that humans needed such an edge? > >"Edge" was maybe the wrong word -- "increased importance" perhaps. The >fact that humans are chock-full of Essence will make them more >interesting to celestials (and more exploited, probably). > >In any sort of combat situation, humans are still crunchies, since they >still have a lot less *stored* Essence than celestials, and they won't >have time to regenerate it. Nor can they perform feats that take lots >of Essence (of which there will be some -- the Judgment attunement that >generates the sword (whose name escapes me at the moment) will be out of >reach for most humans, for example. Woah, woah, woah... IMCs, the PCs (human) are almost never down fatigue except when using powers that require it. Maybe I'm not making them tired enough, but... A ST 15 human who can regenerate Fatigue naturally far more faster than an Angel has more than an edge, he's got a distinct advantage. Many more soldiers in GURPS In Nomine. Perhaps more Soldiers than Angels and Demons. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:34:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... At 9:53 AM -0500 1/27/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>Rites all cost 1 point/Essence they grant (which is twice the IN value, >>due to conversion to match Fatigue). > >Wow. "Yes, that's right, I'd like to purchase 25pts worth of Rites." Mind, "cheap" does not necessarily correspond to "easy to get." Most Rites are purchased as part of the Superior-package. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:53:42 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth McCoy To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 27 January 1999 17:29 Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >At 9:53 AM -0500 1/27/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>>Rites all cost 1 point/Essence they grant (which is twice the IN value, >>>due to conversion to match Fatigue). >> >>Wow. "Yes, that's right, I'd like to purchase 25pts worth of Rites." > >Mind, "cheap" does not necessarily correspond to "easy to get." Most >Rites are purchased as part of the Superior-package. > Yeah, "Unaging" is 10pts everyone knows how sought after that one is. But having said that everone seems to prefer to spend their pointes on something else, I wonder why... Ramesh Aka Demon of Fiddling ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1106 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.