From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 28 16:56:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29744 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:56:46 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id QAA30278 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:43:22 -0600 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:43:22 -0600 Message-Id: <199901282243.QAA30278@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1107 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1107 In this digest: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> Humans and attunements IN> Attunements (Sorcery) Re: IN> Attunements (Sorcery) Re: IN> Humans and attunements IN> Kobalites and the Prankthology Re: IN> Attunements (Sorcery) Re: IN> Humans and attunements Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... IN> INcyclopedia news. IN> conversion rules... Re: IN> conversion rules... Re: IN> conversion rules... Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:12:07 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Dykes Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... - ---Perry Lloyd wrote: > > > Many more soldiers in GURPS In Nomine. Perhaps more Soldiers than > Angels and Demons. > -Perry *Now* you're catching on . I suggested a long time ago, that IN:GURPS should be for Soldier campaigns and IN proper for Celestial campaigns. I plan on doing a bait-and-switch campaign, with the PCs being tabloid reporters, and their editor an Angel. So, does anybody have any other ideas for bait-and-switch campaigns beyond the usual suspects (espionage, black ops)? == Bruce bkd69@yahoo.com ICQ:21845574 - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCC dx(+) s-: a C++ P+ L+ E-- W+(++) N+ !K w O+(++) M- PS++ PE++ Y+ PGP t(+) 5+++ X+(++) R+ tv+ b+(++) DI+ D G e h+ r y*+ _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 18:39 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >>> 75pts per >>>Distiction, >> >>They're generally in about the same range as attunements, or so it >>seems. We haven't converted a lot of either, as yet. > >What about the status included in the distinction? It's in the price for the distinction. >>Rites all cost 1 point/Essence they grant (which is twice the IN value, >>due to conversion to match Fatigue). > >Wow. "Yes, that's right, I'd like to purchase 25pts worth of Rites." There will be comments on how hard it is to get Rites. The mechanics will probably be explained a little differently than in IN, since the actual mechanics of Rites will be built on the Extra Fatigue advantage - -- it will probably be expressed as having limited access to your Superior's Essence reserves. Obviously Superiors aren't going to go around giving that sort of thing away to everyone.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 18:42 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >Hear hear. The very idea of running GURPS: In Nomine without Essence is >like, well, like playing the symphony without the back-beat. What will >*drive* the Symphony in GURPS: In Nomine? Essence. >Sure, you can *say* that Essence is the same thing as Fatigue, but... >it's not. You're looking at it backwards... think of Fatigue in GURPS as being another name for Essence, in IN-based campaigns. >Blood Points is to Gnosis is to Quintessence is to Essence. Is to be avoided. We can't and won't do it that way. End of discussion. Sorry.... >Granted, Celestials shouldn't get tired, but humans do. That means that >a human can't run and then call upon his Holy powers to work miracles? >Miracles/Songs are being equated with physical work. They're already equated with power for spells and some psi and super powers. This is *not* new in GURPS. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 18:45 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >Sorry, but my physical strength should not determine my Spiritual Power. Same argument applies to GURPS mages using the regular magic rules. Been there, done that argument N times before. It's going to work that way. >What about Willpower? Why is physical stamina the measure of personal >energy rather than Fatigue? Because that's how GURPS has *always* done this. Magic, psi powers, super powers -- all use Fatigue (if they use anything). The only exceptions are the WW conversions, and we've been told not to do the same. I'm afraid this is a closed issue, for the time being. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 18:49 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >>In any sort of combat situation, humans are still crunchies, since they >>still have a lot less *stored* Essence than celestials, and they won't >>have time to regenerate it. Nor can they perform feats that take lots >>of Essence (of which there will be some -- the Judgment attunement that >>generates the sword (whose name escapes me at the moment) will be out >of >>reach for most humans, for example. > >Woah, woah, woah... IMCs, the PCs (human) are almost never down fatigue >except when using powers that require it. That sounds about right, from my experience. > Maybe I'm not making them >tired enough, but... A ST 15 human who can regenerate Fatigue naturally >far more faster than an Angel has more than an edge, he's got a distinct >advantage. Nope, not in a single fight. Only if he can go off and rest for 10 minutes, which usually doesn't happen much in tight situations. Over longer time periods, yes, it's a distinct advantage, especially in non-combat situations. >Many more soldiers in GURPS In Nomine. Perhaps more Soldiers than >Angels and Demons. Remember that Soldiers don't generally have lots of Songs, and are nearly always limited to corporeal ones. And most really powerful Songs/magic spells will drain a human's Fatigue reserve after only 2-3 castings; some are even worse. Humans will *not* get Fatigue reduction on Songs/spells for skill, so that problem will be closed off. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:02:24 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Humans and attunements >That would imply that a superior was equally able to add a force from a demon of one band to another, and make a servitor who could buy other band attunements....< Choirs and Bands can already buy the other Choir/Band attunements of their Superior. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:48:49 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements In message , David Edelstein writes > >Normally, humans can't have Choir or Band attunements. However, there is >one rare circumstance that allows it. When a human gets a Force added by a >Superior (such as in the creation of a Soldier), the Superior can take that >Force _from_ one of his celestial Servitors; if he does that, the human is >capable of buying that celestial's Choir/Band attunement. > >In other words, Amanda Dearling's master is a Balseraph of Lust. So, if we >suppose that she acquired her 6th Force and became a Soldier by Andrealphus >ripping a Force off that Balseraph to give to her, it explains how she's >able to have the Balseraph of Lust attunement. The Balseraph of Lust Attunement is non-resonance specific. Presumably the rules about purchasing other Choir/Band attunements that *do* depend on resonance will apply to humans also? > Perhaps that was >Andrealphus' price for letting the Balseraph get a Soldier as a servant; >the Balseraph had to agree to provide the Force to make her a Soldier. > Is the bond between Master and Servant in a Force-swapping relationship any different to a regular one? If the Force is taken from the demon and bound into the human it doesn't have a 'memory' does it? (If it did it would go a long way toward explaining the acquiescence of a servant ;)) Or maybe the Pact process does create a special relationship? Maybe even something as simple as the servant needing to be bought at a minimum Resource level, such as 4. (A six Force human bought as a level 4 resource costs 10pts - which is the same cost as a new Force.) >Obviously, Superiors aren't normally going to take Forces from their >Servitors and give them to mere humans, especially not Archangels. I think that this might largely depend upon exactly how big a part the celestial in question played in the mortal's 'enlightenment', and whether or not said celestial has in fact been looking out for a servant. In this situation, I could see the Force-swap as a fairly common practice. > So Choir & Band >attunements in humans are very rare, but they are possible. > Sure. - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:27:57 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Attunements (Sorcery) Okay, After looking extensively through the IN NOMINE FAQ, I fell upon this list to answer my quandry. Put simply, can a Celestial use the Sorcery Attunement (_The Marches_ p. 57) granted by Hatiphas (Balseraph Baroness of Fate, Demon of Sorcery)? Let's just say, I've had some really -evil- ideas lately... - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:51:50 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Attunements (Sorcery) Shadowstar wrote: > Put simply, can a Celestial use the Sorcery Attunement (_The Marches_ p. > 57) granted by Hatiphas (Balseraph Baroness of Fate, Demon of Sorcery)? The Marches doesn't specifically say NO, it's true... ... but I'd be REALLY in favour of making this a Human-only Attunement. It gives humans a special niche in the game that gives them more flavour. Demons don't need Sorcery - they have their own schticks. And I can't see (say) Asmodeus being too pleased that Kronos' servitors can use Summon & Command to collect & overpower any demon they like. Bad idea. Very bad idea. (Of course, this is just one guy's opinion, and I don't write canon for SJG.) (Yet.) - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Journalism is not a profession or a trade. It is a cheap catch-all for fuckoffs & misfits - a false doorway to the backside of life, a filthy piss-ridden little hole nailed off by the building inspector, but just deep enough for a wino to curl up from the sidewalk and masturbate like a chimp in a zoo-cage. HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:36:18 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements - -----Original Message----- From: David Edelstein >Choirs and Bands can already buy the other Choir/Band attunements of their >Superior. > But some of those attunements are supposed to be band/choir specific. (ie. Seraph of Judgement, Balseraph of Fate...) jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:17:43 -0500 From: EDG Subject: IN> Kobalites and the Prankthology Hi folks, I re-encountered this yesterday in a run through my bookmarks, and although it was most definitely created for use with White Wolf's Vampire: the Masquerade, I thought many of the listings here were equally applicable to demons of Kobal: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~lotze/prank/prankth1.txt This is actually only part 1; to get parts Di through parting is such sweet sorrow (installment 0), you can either replace the 1 in the address with the number of the part you want, or visit yourself onto http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~lotze/prank/ to get all of them and more. A special thanks to Peg Leg Pete, who put this together, to Alik and Erehwon, who keep it up, and to Perry, who made me post this. ;) - -EDG who is going to bed because he's quite ill. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 11:19 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Attunements (Sorcery) > Put simply, can a Celestial use the Sorcery Attunement (_The Marches_ p. >57) granted by Hatiphas (Balseraph Baroness of Fate, Demon of Sorcery)? I've been interpreting things as meaning that only humans can *use* Sorcery, though demons can grant the attunement for it (which requires having the attunement, I believe). Canon on this is somewhat murky, but the text sort of reads like only humans should do it, and I prefer it to work this way. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 11:21 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Humans and attunements >The Balseraph of Lust Attunement is non-resonance specific. Presumably >the rules about purchasing other Choir/Band attunements that *do* depend >on resonance will apply to humans also? I would assume so -- if you need the resonance to use the attunement, there's no way you can use it as a human... no resonance! - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:34:47 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... Walter Milliken wrote on 28 January 1999 >Humans will *not* get Fatigue reduction on Songs/spells for skill, so >that problem will be closed off. Does that mean Celestials/Ethereals will? Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:08:18 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: IN> INcyclopedia news. Well, folks, I had some help and we have a major new version of the INcyclopedia up. The changes are mostly cosmetic for now, but the code that generates the pages is undergoing a major rewrite, so if you notice any irregularities, please tell me at steve@incyclopedia.org immediately, and I'll get right on it. Also, as of the upload last night, the database is virtually up to date. We're back a couple of Pyramid articles (Sorry, Em, your stuff isn't up there yet) but at least we have Liber Canticorum up, and I should have Castellorum in hand over the weekend. Also, I'd like to ask a favor. There's now a little graphic at the bottom of most pages that talks about my hosting company, Dreamhost. I really think these guys are an okay deal, so you might want to look at them, but even if you don't want to look at them, I get a dime off my bill for every one of you that clicks on the link. While I'm not asking anyone to go the INcyclopedia just to click on this link, if you happen to be there anyway, could you take ten seconds and at least click through? In honor of the release of Liber Castellorum, I'm also looking for suggestions on how the new tether page I'm writing should be arranged. And if anyone wants to volunteer to help me assemble the tether data, I'd love to hear from you about that, as well. The INcyclopedia is, as always, at http://www.incyclopedia.org. steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:49:55 -0800 From: darkelf Subject: IN> conversion rules... Does anyone out there have conversion rules from IN to WoD? I'm trying to bring an angel into WoD, and my GM wants specs...and I was hoping wiser minds than I had thought of this already. O:) Thanks, Kat Cherub of Creation - -- - ------------------------------------------------ Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. -- Yoda Fall down seven times. Get up eight. -- adapted Japanese saying ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:58:53 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> conversion rules... Kat Cherub of Creation wrote: > Does anyone out there have conversion rules from IN to WoD? > I'm trying to bring an angel into WoD, and my GM wants > specs...and I was hoping wiser minds than I had thought of > this already. O:) Which part of the WoD are you trying to bring it into -- ports for WW and Mage are easier than Wraith or Vamp, leastwise for an angel character. For WW, make them a very _big_ Epiphling from the Bright Umbra, the realm of concepts, especially abstract ones. Essence times 4 or 5, at least, will be equal to its power rating. Mage, go with an Umbrood, a variant on the Sky Courts mentioned in, [IIRC] The Book of Shadows [or was it the Book of Madness? Have to do something about this trick memory of mine, someday *g*]. tom timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milkbone underwear" Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:35:01 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> conversion rules... On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, darkelf wrote: > Does anyone out there have conversion rules from IN to WoD? > I'm trying to bring an angel into WoD, and my GM wants > specs...and I was hoping wiser minds than I had thought of > this already. O:) I've got an adaptation I'm working on. It's not complete, but I could send it to you if you're willing to give playtesting feedback. (I say "adaptation" insteaed of "conversion", because I gave up on trying to directly translate the In Nomine game mechanics and settled for trying to give the characters the same feel. It's still rough.) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 17:40 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More GURPS IN discussion.... >Walter Milliken wrote on 28 January 1999 >>Humans will *not* get Fatigue reduction on Songs/spells for skill, so >>that problem will be closed off. > >Does that mean Celestials/Ethereals will? No. Nobody does -- it changes things too much. I'm expecting to use one of the magic system variants in the back of GURPS Magic, with slight tweaks: There's no energy reduction for skill, but you can reduce time or ritual requirements by taking a skill penalty. This builds on existing rules in Magic, but doesn't correspond exactly with any of the "official" variants, I believe. The full modifications will be stated as a variation of the magic rules in the Basic Set -- it's only about a paragraph, and similar to the existing rules for singing Songs in IN. BTW, for those concerned about Essence being ST-based, I'll probably put in a pointer to the optional rule in Compendium I that swaps hit points and fatigue, basing hits on ST and Fatigue on HT -- that may "feel" better to some GMs. But the default rule will follow the default GURPS case where Fatigue is ST-based. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1107 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.