From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Oct 22 11:31:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10305 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:31:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA20172 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:29:27 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:29:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199910221629.LAA20172@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1371 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, October 22 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1371 In this digest: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: A question. Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1370 Fluff - Angelic Fruit (Was Re: IN> Mecurians and psychological warfare) Re: Fluff - Angelic Fruit (Was Re: IN> Mecurians and psychologicalwarfare) Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare IN> Yet more Mercs Re: IN> Yet more Mercs Re: IN> A question. IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance IN> AI in IN Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: A question. Re: IN> More on Mercs Re: IN> More on Mercs Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare Re: IN> Yet more Mercs IN> Mercs Re: IN> Choir/Band Names Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare IN> Where to buy INS/MV IN> Just for completeness Re: IN> Judgement Re: IN> Mercs Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: A question. IN> Dysfunctional Angels Re: IN> Malakim who fall (Fluff) Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Yet more Mercs Re: Fluff - Angelic Fruit (Was Re: IN> Mecurians and psychological warfare) Re: IN> Mercs Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 23:02:19 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: A question. At 22:52 -0400 10/21/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 18:13 -0400 10/21/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>At 5:06 PM -0400 10/21/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >>>Yeah, well.... He's kind of unmotivated in general, so he'd probably >>>work best for one of the laid-back AAs. For some reason, I'm thinking >>>Wind might be best, >> >>Yeah, but he's unmotivated, and the Wind is... rather motivated! > >Well, I can see him riding along with a pack of Windys, I can see him >*leading* them. I meant "can't see him leading them", of course. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:10:17 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare In a message dated 10/21/99 4:44:50 PM Central Daylight Time, dorigen@hotmail.com writes: << (Explain to me again why, in the IPG, Tariel fell and she didn't ...) >> My theory is that Tariel was on the verge of falling when we first saw him. In the APG one of the listed reactions to excessive dissonance is overcompensation. Remember Tariel keeping that girl tied up in the car? Reverend Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 23:12:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1370 From: Steven Feldon > Let me the first to say, "not in canon!" In canon as it is currently, the > ONLY time an angel has _ever_ changed choir was at the fall I know a bunch of Habbalah who'd disagree with you. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 23:29:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Fluff - Angelic Fruit (Was Re: IN> Mecurians and psychological warfare) > From: Walter Milliken > >Which raises the question of whether or not a Malakite can go back to being > >what kind of angel they were before, or if a Malakite can swap choirs even > >if they weren't something before. > > Nope. They're stuck -- they don't even get to Fall. Of course, I suppose > God could turn them into rutabagas* if He really wanted to.... > * Elizabeth mutters "no -- kiwis". So, what is the resonance of kiwis? What are their dissonance conditions? What's their opposing band? :-) Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 23:37:35 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: Fluff - Angelic Fruit (Was Re: IN> Mecurians and psychologicalwarfare) From: Benjamin Acosta > > So, what is the resonance of kiwis? What are their dissonance conditions? > What's their opposing band? :-) Australians, obviously. *g* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 23:44:37 -0500 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare I knew that the SJGames version was based on INS/MV, but I was just wondering if there was a direct translation. I mean I love IN but I'd like to read INS/MV...and I dread trying to dredge up my French skills...but from the discussions on this list it would be worth it. I always enjoy seeing what something I enjoy is based on. Ben Chism Angel of War Stories Demon of Useless Knowledge(spreading useless knowledge is a once a day rite...oh well) > > The English translation is the SJGames version.... More or less -- > the translation kind of rotated the IN universe into a totally alternate > version. > > > ---Walter > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:42:20 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Yet more Mercs 1) Can a merc burn down an empty building -- say, the hideout of a bunch of Hellsworn -- without taking Dissonance? 2) Can he steal money, quietly and peacefully, knowing that it will cause anxiety and distress (but no actual harm) to humans? -- Janus' kids might get a different answer here, of course. 3) Obviously if a Merc tells someone else to shoot a human, the Merc suffers. But what about a who-will-rid-me scenario... Merc complains about human X in front of loyal Soldier, Soldier pops a cap in X? 4) Obviously Mercs can lead humans into danger (cf. Nicole). Looks like they can lie about the extent and nature of the danger, too. If a Merc sends a human into a likely-lethal situation, and the human is damaged, dissonant? If yes, then why didn't Nicole get bonged when her human tool got his thumb nipped off? If no, what's to prevent Mercs from using humans as cannon fodder? 5) And, of course... could a Merc have a Role as a WWF wrestler? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:09:01 -0500 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> Yet more Mercs > 1) Can a merc burn down an empty building -- say, the hideout of a bunch > of Hellsworn -- without taking Dissonance? I'd say yes....they aren't being violent to humans...but they'd be in big trouble if a human got caught in the blaze!! Although depending on their superior, they might get in trouble for such a NOISY way of taking out a building...I figure a Blaze strong enough to total a building would make quite a disturbance. And it smacks of something Belial would like....... > 2) Can he steal money, quietly and peacefully, knowing that it will cause > anxiety and distress (but no actual harm) to humans? -- Janus' kids might > get a different answer here, of course. Again, I'd say yes...it's a little more iffy than #1...but as long as they aren't being violent to humans while stealing the money....He probably shouldn't do it...and might have to agonize over it...but dissonance...No > 3) Obviously if a Merc tells someone else to shoot a human, the Merc > suffers. But what about a who-will-rid-me scenario... Merc complains about > human X in front of loyal Soldier, Soldier pops a cap in X? Again, I'd leave off the dissonance(I'm pretty leaniant to my Mercs, though)..I wouldn't give them dissonance for telling someone else to shoot the human...if you do that it'd be dissonant almost everytime they waved in the Malakim...maybe if they made a habit of this I'd start laying on dissonance...It wouldn't be a good behavior for a Merc to get used to. > 4) Obviously Mercs can lead humans into danger (cf. Nicole). Looks like > they can lie about the extent and nature of the danger, too. If a Merc > sends a human into a likely-lethal situation, and the human is damaged, > dissonant? If yes, then why didn't Nicole get bonged when her human tool > got his thumb nipped off? > If no, what's to prevent Mercs from using humans as cannon fodder? Well, it's been pointed out that Nicole isn't the best example of a Mercurian...but I wouldn't hit them with dissonance unless they didn't warn them that there would be some danger...she did tell him that Demons could come after him...and that Bad Things could happen. For what prevents them from using them as cannon fodder.....They really like humans...It might not be wired into their dissonance conditions, I wouldn't see them so callously using humans(well Mercs of Judgment maybe...but I'm of the Dom is a Bal persausion anyway..) > 5) And, of course... could a Merc have a Role as a WWF wrestler? As I view all Professional wrestling as fake...I wouldn't have to much problem with it...he'd have to be careful to not actually hurt someone though........ Ben Chism Angel of War Stories Demon of Useless Knowledge ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 22:35:45 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> A question. Liam wrote: > From: Walter Milliken > > > OK, then, is euthanasia "harm"? > > yes > > >One could see a Mercurian killing a > > "good" person, since sending them to Heaven isn't intending real harm. > > not in the long run, maybe, but that's like hitting someone and saying > "they'll feel alright again in a bit" > Well, I'm not sure it'd be that simple. What if someone is terminally ill? If they're good, an angel has knowledge few humans have. An angel - -knows- what happens after death. And if the person is due to die, their Destiny is either met, or they're never gonna make it the whole way except in rare enough circumstances where you assume the angel knows something's up. Mercurians (should, IMO) hate seeing a human in pain that they can alleviate. Remember, a lot of this is -intent-, like a Seraph. If a Mercurian punches you in the face, there are precious few occasions where it's -not- an intent to harm (ask any Malakite). If a Mercurian shoves you out of the way of a train (or a Calabite) bearing down on you and you skin your knee, I doubt there's any Dissonance involved. So if you're for sure for certain gonna die (and yes, I'd make sure it's -totally- certain, there are enough Servitor Attunements to make sure with), a Mercurian is saving you pain if he decides to move you along. Again, the angel has got to be -perfectly- sure you're terminal and that there's nothing else for you to do on Earth. It'd be rare, but I'd say it's possible. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 22:42:25 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance Walter Milliken wrote: > At 10:56 -0400 10/21/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >My own opinion on dissonance is to play it psychologically. > >An angel's reaction is a wrenching "Dear God in Heaven, what have > >I *DONE*?!!!" > > >An angel's dissonance response usually has shades of guilt and > >horror in it; I suppose a demon's would be more plain fear. More along the lines of: "Sweet Lucifer what's been done to *ME*?!!". Well, unless you're a Balseraph. Now -there's- a question: what happens if a Balseraph says, "I'm not Dissonant."? Will an angel ignore the evidence of his own senses if he can sense Dissonance? For that matter, -could- a Balseraph in Celestial form tell a Malakite in front of him with a Terrible Swift Sword "I'm a Seraph."? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 22:46:29 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: IN> AI in IN Amo Nympham wrote: > umm...why listen to Laurence? and these sound familiar...been reading I, > Robot lately? Another idea: (I'm just full of 'em, tonight), what does everyone think Jean and Vapula's stand on Artificial Intelligence is? While I'm sure Vapula loves the idea of intelligent kill-bots, what about truly self-aware machines or software intelligences? And what would be the disposition of the "soul" of such a being? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 22:49:11 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: A question. Jo Hart wrote: > >like I tell all my new players when I instruct them to read the opening > >vignettes, "Nicole is not a good angel. in fact, she's a horrible angel. > >in fact, IMHO, she's about to fall, and it ain't going to be pretty." > > > > I think Nicole's a great angel! She's my role model. Okay, it's an old thread, so I'll be very -careful- about how I go about this. It comes down to, -must- a Mercurian -care- about humanity, or must a Mercurian just abide by the rules? Is it nature or obedience? Do remember Gabriel's Mercs while you mull this over. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 22:59:37 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> More on Mercs Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > >2) Does psychological violence count as violence? Could a Merc use > >threats and bluff to terrorize a human? > > Occasionally though usually not, and yes, but they have to be careful -- > they're on a slippery slope when they start doing psychological harm. > Eventually, if they do it enough, it will probably come back to haunt > them in a dissonant way, either because they are doing it and taking > _pleasure_ in the harm, or because it has desensitized them enough > that they take a swing at someone. > I'd say the reason behind it matters a -lot-, as well. "Touch that girl and I'll kill you." is different than, "I know where you live, check the closest, muhaahahaha." It usually takes a lot of threatening to really psychologically damage the average human. > > >3) A human is in hysterics. Can the Merc slap the human in an attempt to > >restore sanity? > > I'd say no, or certainly not without nearly going into hysterics himself, > if not actual dissonance. > > (And if I were in hysterics, slapping me would probably get me going > berserk after ya. Fair warning... O:> ) Yeah, just what someone whose mind has withdrawn into a total defense reaction needs, someone smacking them around. Not the best idea. What'd work better is to firmly but gently hold onto the person (if they aren't lashing out at that point), talk to them calmly, and let them run it out of their system. In an emergency, restraints or sedation might be in order. If you have time to burn, just leave them be and it'll work itself out. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:06:30 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> More on Mercs Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Though a Mercurian who's got that much skill with rifles might have > some problems beyond this situation. Say, a Dominican or five > walking up to him and saying "Intercessionist, we can't help but > notice you're spending a powerful amount of time at the gun range...." Ahhhh, but what if said Mercurian is meeting some people there who were nursing militia-type ideas and that Mercurian is slowly turning their minds towards nobler pursuits? To fit in, he has to play their game. Also, it could be pure recreation, I know -I- enjoy going down to the range every so and squeezing off a couple dozen rounds. Story hook idea based on this general notion. Mercurian of (oh, whoever, probably Flowers or Fire) poses as a junkie, taking drugs (and using Songs to stave the effects off) in order to meet someone with an important Destiny and "get clean" together. Meanwhile, Fleurity's peeps are on the case, making sure that person sinks deeper and takes everyone around them to Hell. The fun of this comes from the Mercurian needing to act as an example because it comes down to, "I - -have- been there, and I think we can beat this." - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 02:35:19 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance In a message dated 10/22/99 12:41:18 AM Central Daylight Time, steelangel@cruzers.com writes: << More along the lines of: "Sweet Lucifer what's been done to *ME*?!!". Well, unless you're a Balseraph. Now -there's- a question: what happens if a Balseraph says, "I'm not Dissonant."? Will an angel ignore the evidence of his own senses if he can sense Dissonance? For that matter, -could- a Balseraph in Celestial form tell a Malakite in front of him with a Terrible Swift Sword "I'm a Seraph."? >> I think if a Bal says, "I'm not dissonant" and the angel can sense it, the demon might get more dissonance, since the angel can successfully refute the demon's "reality" Reverend Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 01:44:40 -0500 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance At 10:42 PM -0700 10/22/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Well, unless you're a Balseraph. Now -there's- a question: what happens if >a Balseraph says, "I'm not Dissonant."? Will an angel ignore the evidence >of his own senses if he can sense Dissonance? First: If the Angel in question fails his Will roll, then your halfway there. Secondly: If the attunement (which I recall is about the only way you can tell) is automatic, then the Balseraph gets hit with another point of Dissonance. Because the Symphony has just told the angel the _TRUTH_, contrary to the delusion. Now if the attunement requires a Perception roll, then you _might_ be able to convince the other celestial in question to NOT look. . . Though he may just look if your carefully crafted 'lie' doesn't hinder him from being paranoid and looking. >For that matter, -could- a Balseraph in Celestial form tell a Malakite in >front of him with a Terrible Swift Sword "I'm a Seraph."? First: If he has three combat rounds where he isn't doing ANYTHING, including Dodging. Second: If the Malakite fails his will roll. Third: Keep in mind a Balseraph _cannot_ lie. He instead deludes himself into believing his subjective version of the truth. So for the next Check-Digit of minutes he will believe he's a Seraph. With all the implied problems that come with it. Like having to tell the _truth_. Which a Sadistic GM may say thus: "Okay, you, the Seraph, truthfully tell the Malakite that: No, I'm not. I'm a Demon!" At least, I'd do something along those lines. . . (FYI, I had a Gamester Balseraph delude himself into believing he was a Seraph of Judgement to convince an Angelic PC to capture an outcast NPC and the Free Lilim PC. Needless to say he later managed to redeem during a fight with the Malakite of Creation IST Fire.) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 02:39:46 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN In a message dated 10/22/99 12:47:48 AM Central Daylight Time, steelangel@cruzers.com writes: << Another idea: (I'm just full of 'em, tonight), what does everyone think Jean and Vapula's stand on Artificial Intelligence is? While I'm sure Vapula loves the idea of intelligent kill-bots, what about truly self-aware machines or software intelligences? And what would be the disposition of the "soul" of such a being? >> Technically, In In Nomine terms, you don't have a soul unless you have Celestial Forces. An AI will not have Celestial Forces unless a Superior gives it some. Rev. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:47:37 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance Shadowstar wrote:. > Third: Keep in mind a Balseraph _cannot_ lie. He instead deludes > himself into believing his subjective version of the truth. So for the > next Check-Digit of minutes he will believe he's a Seraph. With all the > implied problems that come with it. Like having to tell the _truth_. > Which a Sadistic GM may say thus: "Okay, you, the Seraph, truthfully tell > the Malakite that: No, I'm not. I'm a Demon!" At least, I'd do something > along those lines. . . > Remember, the Balseraph -does- tell the truth, from his own internal Symphony. If he says, "I'm a Seraph." he -won't- "confess" anything because, to him, he IS a Seraph and saying that he's a demon would be a lie. Check the IPG for more on this and how a 'Balseraph would no more lie to you, from his perspective, than his Heavenly counterpart.' - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 02:01:13 -0500 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance At 11:47 PM -0700 10/22/99, Steel Angel wrote: > > Remember, the Balseraph -does- tell the truth, from his own internal >Symphony. If he says, "I'm a Seraph." he -won't- "confess" anything >because, to >him, he IS a Seraph and saying that he's a demon would be a lie. Check the IPG >for more on this and how a 'Balseraph would no more lie to you, from his >perspective, than his Heavenly counterpart.' Oh yeah. I know. However I did say _sadistic_ GM's might do just what I described. };;;> (Also, when a Balseraph self-resonates he does so for only a few minutes at a time. However, since it's so instinctual, he can constantly self-resonate upon himself without even thinking about it. You only need Roll when trying to convince 'others' of this new truth, and not everytime the Bal just self-resonates to change his version of the truth a bit.) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Technomancer, Six of Nine. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:52:55 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare >From: "Janet Anderson" >(Explain to me again why, in the IPG, Tariel fell and she didn't ...) Because she's too cool to fall :) (I can see the writer's mind working !) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 01:11:42 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Yet more Mercs >From: Douglas Muir >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.co > > >1) Can a merc burn down an empty building -- say, the hideout of a bunch >of Hellsworn -- without taking Dissonance? Prolly not. But he can get his mortal servant to lob in the Molotov cocktail instead... > >2) Can he steal money, quietly and peacefully, knowing that it will cause >anxiety and distress (but no actual harm) to humans? -- Janus' kids might >get a different answer here, of course. Sure. >3) Obviously if a Merc tells someone else to shoot a human, the Merc >suffers. But what about a who-will-rid-me scenario... Merc complains about >human X in front of loyal Soldier, Soldier pops a cap in X? Not at all. If a Mercurian tells someone else to shoot a human, he takes no dissonance (with the possible exception of when the Mercurian is using the Ethereal Song of Attraction, or some supernatural method of persuasion.) >4) Obviously Mercs can lead humans into danger (cf. Nicole). Looks like >they can lie about the extent and nature of the danger, too. If a Merc >sends a human into a likely-lethal situation, and the human is damaged, >dissonant? If yes, then why didn't Nicole get bonged when her human tool >got his thumb nipped off? >If no, what's to prevent Mercs from using humans as cannon fodder? No (to the first question) - the angel has to physically press the button, pull the trigger, swing the sword or whatever. It's only Impudites who really have to try to prevent their pets from being killed by local circumstances. And Mercurians could use humans as cannon fodder without getting dissonant BUT.. any self-respecting Mercurian would much rather die himself than be responsible for any mortal deaths (if it was a straight choice.) Some could be more calculating about it, depending on superior. >5) And, of course... could a Merc have a Role as a WWF wrestler? Now this I don't know. I'd never been able to decide if they really ought to ever have roles as policemen or soldiers either. I doubt that the role nullifies the dissonance condition so I'd be tempted to just say no... those are unsuitable roles for Mercurians. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 19:29:43 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Mercs Can A Merc. harm a Soldier of Hell (directly)? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 19:32:42 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Choir/Band Names - ---------- > Where do the names of the following choirs and bands come from? What > are their origins and/or meanings? -- > > Mercurians > Impudites > Habbalah > Callabim > Balseraphs > > I know where the others come from, but not these. > > Thanks. > > Earl > Could Impudite come from the the word Impudence perhaps? I know for a fact that I have heared of Habbalah outside of IN. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 99 19:37:24 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare - ---------- > Oooohhhh I like....Thanks for the story! > Speaking of INS/MV...anybody know where I can get a copy for a reasonable > price? I've checked Amazon.com, Barnes and Noble online, and my local > bookstores and none have it. Also, is there an English translation...my > French is really rusty.... > Ben Chism > Angel of War Stories > Demon of Useless Knowledge(did you know that In ancient China and certain > parts of India, mouse flesh was considered a great delicacy?) > Doesn't it say in the IN sourcebook where you can get INS/MV. When I get INS/MV (READ: when I get cash) I'm planning on using Babelfish (www.altavista.com) to translate what I can. Babelfish can Translate very large amounts of text VERY fast and I'm very patient. Just thought I'd share Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 02:46:17 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: IN> Where to buy INS/MV I did make a list of places you could order INS/MV online. It's at http://www.btinternet.com/~jhart/INS.html I also found a pretty neat online games shop in Belgium (but I can't remember the URL offhand, I bought some French Nephilim stuff from there.) jo (Whilst I'm shilling, check out my IN pages at www.btinternet.com/~jhart/IN.html) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 02:50:27 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: IN> Just for completeness OK, so I looked up the Belgian online shop on yahoo.fr (an invaluable resource ;) ). It's at http://be.org/dice/ jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:10:16 -0400 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Judgement David Paul > >"Jo Hart" wrote: > >> That's fanaticism. Thinking that your chosen ideal is more important than >> anything or anyone who stands in the way. Sacrificing the 'unimportant' >> pawns to further your grand schemes. >> >> Michael is a fanatic. Dominic is an idealist :) >> > > Yeah, I can easily see Michael allowing an angel -- even one of his own >servitors -- to fall or be destroyed "for the greater good." Michael >wants to _win_ the war, and if he has to, he'll even use the Enemy's >methods to do it. I think that would be dissonant for Michael. His dissonance condition is that he and his servitors cannot retreat the field of battle. Since the souls of humans and spirits *are* the real battleground, he couldn't sacrifice those under his protection like that. There was a bit of dialogue imc that went like this: [Michael orders an all-out defense] "But -- it's just a worthless piece of dirt." "No, it's /God's/ worthless piece of dirt. You want to give up something that belongs to Him?" - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:18:39 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Mercs From: Azrael > Can A Merc. harm a Soldier of Hell (directly)? > > nope. heh heh heh liam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:14:11 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Steel Angel > Another idea: (I'm just full of 'em, tonight), what does everyone think > Jean and Vapula's stand on Artificial Intelligence is? While I'm sure Vapula > loves the idea of intelligent kill-bots, what about truly self-aware machines > or software intelligences? And what would be the disposition of the "soul" of > such a being? > i'd say that in IN, artificial intelligence wouldn't have a soul. that's the province of living things created by god. as far as jean would be concerned, they could be extremely powerful and useful analytical tools. vapula would probably encourage the belief that AIs were truly conscious, then implant bugs in them that would lead to HAL/skynet-like behaviour liam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:10:25 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance From: Steel Angel > > More along the lines of: "Sweet Lucifer what's been done to *ME*?!!". > Well, unless you're a Balseraph. Now -there's- a question: what happens if > a Balseraph says, "I'm not Dissonant."? Will an angel ignore the evidence > of his own senses if he can sense Dissonance? For that matter, -could- a > Balseraph in Celestial form tell a Malakite in front of him with a Terrible > Swift Sword "I'm a Seraph."? > well, it says in the main book that balseraphs can't convince people of anything obviously false to their senses (like the sun being the moon). so i'd say if someone detects the dissonance, the bal couldn't then convince them that they didn't. same with the malakite, the evidence before his eyes would tell him that the bal is lying. cue Balseraph Burgers liam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:34:49 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare At 7:37 PM -0700 10/22/99, Azrael wrote: > >Doesn't it say in the IN sourcebook where you can get INS/MV. >When I get INS/MV (READ: when I get cash) I'm planning on using >Babelfish (www.altavista.com) to translate what I can. Babelfish >can Translate very large amounts of text VERY fast and I'm very >patient. Just thought I'd share And then you can use the Jar-Jarinizer and convert it into Gungin. "Meesa Gab-Gab Riel. Meesa biiiig archangel. Yousa gonna *fry!*" - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:38:10 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: A question. At 10:49 PM -0700 10/22/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Jo Hart wrote: > > > >like I tell all my new players when I instruct them to read the opening > > >vignettes, "Nicole is not a good angel. in fact, she's a horrible angel. > > >in fact, IMHO, she's about to fall, and it ain't going to be pretty." > > > > > > > I think Nicole's a great angel! She's my role model. > > Okay, it's an old thread, so I'll be very -careful- about how I go about >this. It comes down to, -must- a Mercurian -care- about humanity, or must a >Mercurian just abide by the rules? Is it nature or obedience? Do remember >Gabriel's Mercs while you mull this over. Gabriel's Mercs are charged with preventing humanity from being cruel to themselves. They're the compassionate ones (as far as Gabriel's can be). So they're a bad example, I think. They're passionately Mercurian. Now, *Dominic's* are the weird ones. I'd think that other Intercessionists would look at Dominican Mercurians with the same weather eye that Cherubim look at Dominic's Cherubim. "Dude -- you just killed that human." "Yes -- her crime fairly warranted death." "Yeah, but dude -- you just *killed* that human." "Your concern does you credit." Dominican walks away. Mercurian shivers. "That boy just ain't right." - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:45:02 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dysfunctional Angels >>>(Explain to me again why, in the IPG, Tariel fell and she didn't ...)<<< The short answer is the same reason why so many Archangels appear loony in contradictory In Nomine writings. Because Nicole and Tariel and Marcus (and all the Superiors) are Derek Pearcy's characters, and he was writing along the model of the original French version of the game, in which pretty much all angels are as likely to be psycho nutcases as the demons. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:48:14 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Malakim who fall (Fluff) In a message dated 10/22/99 2:56:25 AM, milliken@io.com writes: >God could turn them into Rutabagas* (Snip) >* Elizabeth mutters "no -- kiwis". So what you people are saying is that Malakim don't fall, they just become New Zealanders? Mark (Feeling silly) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:15:16 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 2:39 -0400 10/22/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >Technically, In In Nomine terms, you don't have a soul unless you have >Celestial Forces. An AI will not have Celestial Forces unless a Superior >gives it some. Humans get them all the time without Superior intervention -- I don't see anything to forbid an AI "growing" Cel. Forces as it becomes sentient. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:27:55 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 1:46 -0400 10/23/99, Steel Angel wrote: > Another idea: (I'm just full of 'em, tonight), what does everyone think >Jean and Vapula's stand on Artificial Intelligence is? While I'm sure Vapula >loves the idea of intelligent kill-bots, what about truly self-aware machines >or software intelligences? Vapula: starts creating a bunch of his Shedim to "test" them. Jean: Shrug. "If humans can do it on their own, then fine. But if it's demonic interference, it needs to be dealt with. Maybe they'll be more sensible than humans. But I doubt it. After all, God created humans, and look how they turned out. And humans aren't anywhere close to His level of perfection." Sends email detailing a horde of Servitors to keep an eye on the AIs and report back. > And what would be the disposition of the "soul" of >such a being? Good question. In theory, if it had true sentience and free will, then it would presumably be subject to the same choices humans have. If it wasn't truly free-willed, then it would probably wind up in Heaven, like animals do. (Can't you just see Jordi's reaction to a computer soul showing up on the Savanah, though...?) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:07:00 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Yet more Mercs On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Douglas Muir wrote: > > 1) Can a merc burn down an empty building -- say, the hideout of a bunch > of Hellsworn -- without taking Dissonance? Celestials burning down buildings is just a bad plan anyway - but no violence to humans involved so no Dissonance - just loads of Disturbance. > > 2) Can he steal money, quietly and peacefully, knowing that it will cause > anxiety and distress (but no actual harm) to humans? -- Janus' kids might > get a different answer here, of course. > Yes. > 3) Obviously if a Merc tells someone else to shoot a human, the Merc > suffers. But what about a who-will-rid-me scenario... Merc complains about > human X in front of loyal Soldier, Soldier pops a cap in X? > Intent counts here I'd say. Although a Merc ought to have enough information from his Resonance to know this is a bad plan - but if unintentional then I'd say just a very guilt-tripped Merc. > 4) Obviously Mercs can lead humans into danger (cf. Nicole). Looks like > they can lie about the extent and nature of the danger, too. If a Merc > sends a human into a likely-lethal situation, and the human is damaged, > dissonant? If yes, then why didn't Nicole get bonged when her human tool > got his thumb nipped off? > If no, what's to prevent Mercs from using humans as cannon fodder? > How about we all agree to stop using Nicole as an example of anything relating to Angels? She's a story char with some details that come from a different version of IN - let's just leave her alone ok? Anyway, no dissonance directly for doing any sending of humans into danger it is just something by nature of the Merc outlook on existence that they are unlikely to do mostly and what prevents them from using humans as cannon fodder is the fact they like humans. > 5) And, of course... could a Merc have a Role as a WWF wrestler? > Of course they can get a job as an actor :) Er - accidents happen more often than the WWF admits though so bad plan actually. > Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:32:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Fluff - Angelic Fruit (Was Re: IN> Mecurians and psychological warfare) At 11:29 PM -0500 10/21/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >So, what is the resonance of kiwis? What are their dissonance conditions? >What's their opposing band? :-) Resonance: greeness and fuzzyness. Dissonance: being eaten, rotting. Opposing Band: Rutebagas. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:02:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Mercs At 7:29 PM -0700 10/22/99, Azrael wrote: >Can A Merc. harm a Soldier of Hell (directly)? Nope. One of the little problems Mercurians have in life. (That's why it's a _disad_ to have a Dissonance Condition in GURPS IN...) Though, yes, there are Mercurians of Judgment, and if a Hellsworn's crimes merit harm or even death, the Judge is perfectly free to dish it out. (And Judgment's Cherubim can act even more like Djinn than Djinn do -- they _can_ harm their attuned if they must!) And yes, other Mercurians look crosseyed at them a lot. They're just not... _normal._ - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:41:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance At 10:42 PM -0700 10/22/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Walter Milliken wrote: > More along the lines of: "Sweet Lucifer what's been done to *ME*?!!". >Well, unless you're a Balseraph. Now -there's- a question: what happens if >a Balseraph says, "I'm not Dissonant."? He must make a resonance roll, and succeed, and make a Will roll, and fail -- and he will lose the dissonant note. If I recall the IPG correctly. >For that matter, -could- a >Balseraph in Celestial form tell a Malakite in front of him with a Terrible >Swift Sword "I'm a Seraph."? I'd say no. Among other reasons, he'd have a hard time saying it in angelic, and Malakim rarely understand Helltongue. O;> (In angelic, most Balseraph lies come out, "I believe X" instead of "X!" Which is perfectly reasonable, and Seraphim prefer such hedging of bets. I'd require either penalties to the resonance roll or a minimum CD for them to be able to Balseraph someone using angelic.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1371 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.