From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Oct 23 14:10:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26158 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:10:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA13188 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:10:48 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:10:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199910231910.OAA13188@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1372 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, October 23 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1372 In this digest: IN> INS/MV discussion Re: IN> Yet more Mercs IN> Choir-swapping Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare Re: IN> Yet more Mercs IN> Re: AI in IN Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance Re: IN> Mercs Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> A question. Re: IN> Another question IN> Zadkiel.....? Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance Re: IN> Zadkiel.....? Re: IN> Zadkiel.....? Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Another question Re: IN> Zadkiel.....? Re: IN> INS/MV discussion Re: IN> INS/MV discussion Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Zadkiel.....? Re: IN> Re: AI in IN Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare Re: IN> Choir/Band Names Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Yet more Mercs Re: IN> Re: AI in IN Re: Fluff - Angelic Fruit (Was Re: IN> Mecurians and psychological warfare) Re: IN> Re: AI in IN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:46:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> INS/MV discussion At 8:05 PM -0500 10/21/99, Ben Chism wrote: >Speaking of INS/MV... [...] Also, is there an English translation...my >French is really rusty.... The authorized English translation/adaptation _is_ IN/SJG, as I've been known to call it. If you find a dead-trees copy or a web-page with _direct_ translations, it's violating the copyright both of the French company, and will have problems with SJ Games. (Which doesn't mean you can't try to get a friend to send you email if they happen to have a copy and wish to make translations. Just don't advertise that you'll send out such translations on your web-page, or otherwise violate the spirit of copyright, and there won't be any hard feelings.) Summaries are, of course, another matter. (But early on, when Moriah was still LE, he came down hard on someone who posted the INS/MV version of Malphus to the list. Copyright violation. Don' do it or I'll have to come down hard too.) Get the rust-remover for your French... O:> (Or, yes, get Babelfish -- I wish there were a Mac version! It's done a passable job on some French pages I found when doing an altavista search on In Nomine.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:37:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Yet more Mercs At 12:42 AM -0400 10/22/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >1) Can a merc burn down an empty building -- say, the hideout of a bunch >of Hellsworn -- without taking Dissonance? Yes. It'll make a heck of a disturbance, of course. >2) Can he steal money, quietly and peacefully, knowing that it will cause >anxiety and distress (but no actual harm) to humans? -- Janus' kids might >get a different answer here, of course. Yes, though if he found out he'd caused indirect harm, he should feel guilty. >3) Obviously if a Merc tells someone else to shoot a human, the Merc >suffers. No -- unless the "someone else" is a voice-controlled automaton. The someone else has the free will to say, "Heck, no." (The Mercurian should feel guilty, of course.) > But what about a who-will-rid-me scenario... Merc complains about >human X in front of loyal Soldier, Soldier pops a cap in X? Definitely no. (But again, he should feel sad about it.) >4) Obviously Mercs can lead humans into danger (cf. Nicole). Looks like >they can lie about the extent and nature of the danger, too. If a Merc >sends a human into a likely-lethal situation, and the human is damaged, >dissonant? No. He didn't do it himself. (But a good Mercurian will feel a little bit bad about it, at least.) >If no, what's to prevent Mercs from using humans as cannon fodder? Nothing but their own sense of guilt and ethics. And Judgment, of course. Judgment doesn't just land on what's dissonant -- they also land on what are warning signs that someone is at the edges of their nature, and on things that are simply unjust. >5) And, of course... could a Merc have a Role as a WWF wrestler? Only if they _are_ all staged so that nobody really gets hurt. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:25:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Choir-swapping At 4:54 PM -0600 10/21/99, Tim Groth wrote: >>Me, I'd have thought she'd do better as a Malakite... Then she could >>still have pulled that "I know what you did bad" trick. For that matter, >>it would have worked _better_... >> >>(That's what she's doing. She's trying to re-fledge blackwing...) >Hmmm isn't that possible (the becoming a Malakite)? *sigh* No. I was being humorous, suggesting that she was trying to accomplish the impossible. The only time that Malakim were created from other Choirs was during the Fall, as others have quoted. > Which raises the bigger question can >angels shuffle around choirs but it just isn't done for numerous reasons >(like old habbits inducing dissonance)? Here's what I posted on this topic on the Pyramid message board. Subject: Re: Changing Choirs From: emccoy@nh.ultranet.com (Beth McCoy) Date: 20 Oct 1999 14:35:45 GMT Message-ID: 1243 Newsgroups: sjgames.innomine On 20 Oct 1999 02:21:34 GMT, mikmok@home.com (Ryan Elias) wrote: > Just had a thought... If an angel is reduced below 9 forces, or a > demon below 7, and later regains said forces, would it be possible to > change choirs/bands? In canon, no -- or at least not without the intervention of a Superior, which might result in a being which is to the old character much like a restored remnant is to the being it was before it was soul-killed... (Of course, you could ask Lucifer -- _he_ might be able to do it without some of the other potential bad effects. Of course, asking Lucifer for anything is, well... asking Lucifer for something.) [Generally, stripping down the Forces results in a low-Force Choir/Band member -- there is one reference to getting a reliever out of a redemption case, but I'd put a strong bias toward fledging as a member of the appropriate Choir there. (Unless the Archangel does something to change it quickly? But no Archangel will condone Falling and redeeming as a way to change Choir!)] [Basically, if Changing Choir/Band were rules, there would have to be, well, _rules_ about it! The social reactions, the mechanics-if-any, stating the obvious (no half-and-half changes, lose old resonance, gain new one, only done by Superiors, etc.)... It'd probably take at least a page and a half somewhere. Call that 3 pages if it's APG/IPG material, because it would have to be reprinted between them. (Those books were pretty crammed tight at the time, too.) Far easier to Just Not Go There Officially. Which doesn't stop even me from speculating...] Outside of canon, this is probably an _excellent_ way to allow a player to change the focus of a character he or she just isn't getting into, without having to part from the character entirely. I'd say that a GM shouldn't let this be an _easy_ decision for the character (no matter how easy it is for the player), and add in some reactions from other celestials (probably at least minor discomfort -- think of how you'd feel if a friend of yours showed up and had gotten a sex-change and/or full plastic surgery to alter appearance without any preliminaries to let you get used to it). You could tell the player, "Okay, you're going to have to work at this one some," and tell the character, "No, no, it's not possible. Though, well, there's this legend about one of Eli's/Jean's/Vapula's/Raphael's/ some ethereal god's creation somewhere [Marches, Earth, Junkyard of Hell, forgotten bits of Heaven] which _could_ do that. Of course, it's lost now and all that's left is the legend of when it was last used, with a few hints of where..." You might make it such that the character has to have the alteration done by a Superior of the same Band/Choir as the desired one -- this could be easy, of course, but what if you're a Cherub of Novalis and you _want_ to become a Malakite? Or an Ofanite? What if you're a Cherub of Dreams and you want to become an Elohite? (What would Blandine say, tsk.) If you've got a player who's not adverse to some solo roleplay, maybe the transformation is easy, but there are certain obscure rituals that members of the new Choir have to welcome/initiate the new member. (Stone Servitors are probably especially likely to have such things.) Perhaps a change-Choir/Band is treated like a new fledge, and has to go around learning how to think like the new Choir/Band -- possibly _before_ the transformation, if the Superior wants to make sure that he's not going to get the character back whining at him for another change. (Maybe the Superior would inflict some kind of Discord that stuck the character with the dissonance conditions of their Choir/Band to be, too! Or Discord that does that, _and_ totally louses up their original resonance so they can't use it!) One thing I'd like to have/see in the expanded Lilith writeup someday is a _RUMOR_ that she can, to a Daughter she's _really_ PO'ed at, reach inside and remove That Which Makes A Lilim, leaving behind a Really Big Demonling. Which will eventually fledge normally. (Is it true? Who knows. It's a rumor. But wouldn't _that_ make some of your Lilim characters just shake in their little green boots, if they thought it could be?) (Would Lilith be above spreading such a rumor herself, through hints and implications if not outright lies? Not in my campaign, she wouldn't.) --Beth, encouraging GMs to fold, spindle, and mutilate canon when it would make _their_ games go smoother. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:48:02 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare From: Whistling in the Dark > > And then you can use the Jar-Jarinizer and convert it into Gungin. > > "Meesa Gab-Gab Riel. Meesa biiiig archangel. Yousa gonna *fry!*" They have a special circle of Hell saved just for Jar Jar Binks-related things, you know... *g* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:57:15 CDT From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> Yet more Mercs >1) If there aren't any humans in the building, yes. >2) Um, I wouldn't think they would get dissonance from this....everyone >has money problems now and then... >3) Actually, telling a human to kill another human causes no dissonance >for a Mercurian..read: A Bright Dream in the main book (if you have it). >4) No, no dissonance if damaged by anyone/thing other than the Mercurian. >One word: ARCHANGELS >5) I wouldn't let him/her do it. Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketers ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:15:20 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: IN> Re: AI in IN At 1:46 -0400 10/23/99, Steel Angel wrote: > Another idea: (I'm just full of 'em, tonight), what does everyone think >Jean and Vapula's stand on Artificial Intelligence is? While I'm sure >Vapula >loves the idea of intelligent kill-bots, what about truly self-aware >machines >or software intelligences? I suspect that true AI would be viewed by Heaven as deeply heretical, or even unholy -- the creation of an intelligence without a soul. (Some might even count them as manmade ethereals, also often believed to be soul-less IMG). It may be one of those cases, like immortality, where scientists who are getting a bit too close to the discovery may just find that their labs get visited by a hit-squad of Jeanite Malakim. People make quite a big deal of Jean doling out information to humanity, but it's also his job to make sure that stuff that mankind isn't ready for is NOT available to them. We may never know how many alchemists in the middle ages had truly happened upon the secret of the elixir of life -- they all died in unfortunate boating accidents... As for Vapula -- I really couldn't say :) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:31:06 -0700 (PDT) From: David Barr Subject: Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance > In angelic, most Balseraph lies come out, "I believe X" instead of > "X!" > Which is perfectly reasonable, and Seraphim prefer such hedging of > bets. Scenario that this brings to mind.... J. Random Seraph standing before a Malakim, Says (in angelic tongue) "I beleive that I am a Seraph." Malakim "You _Believe_? You do not know for sure?" Seraph "well, it is concievable that i may have fallen and not yet realized it. Or I could a deluded Liar... You never Know, right?" {smile} Malakim (winds up with sword)"Right. Good point. Tell you what, I will destroy your vessel; depending on where you wake up, it will settle the question, right?" [Seraph looks suddenly uncomfortable....} "uhm...." tries Really Hard to find an Untruth in this argument. This brings to mind another question. Since Malakim do not suffer from Trauma, would it then make sense if they were notriously unsympathetic to angels who do (i.e. everyone else)? Would it stand to reason that some (newly fledged) Malakim do not even know about trauma? ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com my mother once said that boy is stranger than a three toed barking frog - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:57:07 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Mercs In a message dated 10/22/99 4:31:31 AM Central Daylight Time, chiram@tpgi.com.au writes: << Can A Merc. harm a Soldier of Hell (directly)? Azrael >> No. Rev. B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:02:27 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN In a message dated 10/22/99 10:15:27 AM Central Daylight Time, milliken@io.com writes: << >Technically, In In Nomine terms, you don't have a soul unless you have >Celestial Forces. An AI will not have Celestial Forces unless a Superior >gives it some. Humans get them all the time without Superior intervention -- I don't see anything to forbid an AI "growing" Cel. Forces as it becomes sentient. >> Humans naturally have Celestial forces. They're built that way. If an AI can grow Celestial forces then there's no reason that, say, a Remnant could as well. And we all tend to be in agreement that they can't do that. Rev. Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:25:22 PDT From: "trina mccowan" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN >From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com >Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1371 >Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:29:27 -0500 > >in_nomine-digest Friday, October 22 1999 Volume 01 : Number >1371 > > > > > And what would be the disposition of the "soul" of > >such a being? > >Good question. In theory, if it had true sentience and free will, then it >would presumably be subject to the same choices humans have. If it wasn't >truly free-willed, then it would probably wind up in Heaven, like >animals do. (Can't you just see Jordi's reaction to a computer soul >showing up on the Savanah, though...?) > > >- ---Walter O.K i'm new. i haven't bought anybooks yet but i have kinda kept up on general information. now here's my question: so are you saying that besides having to be nice to your kitty in IN, that it has a soul too? it's off subject i know but i was just wondering. - -----fran ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:26:26 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: IN> A question. On Tue, Oct 19, 1999 at 08:11:40PM -0400, Douglas Muir wrote: > > To give an example from canon... in "Fall of the Malakim" (minor spoiler > alert! minor spoiler alert!), the Mal Maximilian goes berserk and kills > every Celestial in L.A. Except it's not really Max who does it... it's a > construct, a fake Maximilian created as part of an elaborate plot by > Malphas and Kobal. > Of course the problem with that scenario was the use of a gun by the fake Max. Since the real Max wouldn't know how to use a gun, and certainly didn't need to use a gun, the fake Max's use of a gun was a bit suspicious. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Thus the army is established by deceit, moves for advantage and changes through segmenting and reuniting. Thus its speed is like the wind, its slowness like the forest; its invasion and plundering like a fire; unmoving, it is like the mountains. It is as difficult to know as the darkness; in movement it is like thunder." Sun Tzu, The Art of War, Chapter 7. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:49:20 +0100 From: hjalkar@redbrick.dcu.ie (Kevin Walsh) Subject: Re: IN> Another question On Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 12:58:24PM -0400, Walter Milliken wrote: > >The instant a seraph starts twisting the truth (including lying by omission) for no good reason, I'd hit him with dissonance. What's no good reason? If someone is taken in once, will they not be warier in the future? (And yes, I can imagine Windies using that rationalisation.) >But then I always found Seraphs annoying smug and superlicious, so I might be a bit predjudiced. Maybe. > Well, a bit, but not as smug or supercilious as Nicole. > Also, Seraphim of Wind can use Fast-Talk, Or, looked at another way, all Seraphim can use Fast-Talk, and they get a bonus. (OK, they can also tell the truth in a manner such that the > hearer will interpret it differently; I'd say that was also lying by > omission, since the Seraph is deliberately not clarifying.) > I wonder sometimes about certain expressions (alas, I can't think of them at the moment) that are used in conversation to mean the opposite of what they might, on a literal meaning, be thought to mean. I imagine Seraphim tend to avoid these, as they give them headaches. (No, I'm not referring to sarcasm.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Thus the army is established by deceit, moves for advantage and changes through segmenting and reuniting. Thus its speed is like the wind, its slowness like the forest; its invasion and plundering like a fire; unmoving, it is like the mountains. It is as difficult to know as the darkness; in movement it is like thunder." Sun Tzu, The Art of War, Chapter 7. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:41:17 -0500 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: IN> Zadkiel.....? ... anything at all? Redneck Kris Overstreet, too many websites.... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Personal homepage http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - Business webpage http://www.antarctic-press.com/ - Someone else's page ... not enough time ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:00:28 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > Humans naturally have Celestial forces. They're built that way. If an AI can > grow Celestial forces then there's no reason that, say, a Remnant could as > well. And we all tend to be in agreement that they can't do that. > I'm not so sure. The list is definitely not in agreement on when a human develops various Forces. Perhaps the state change from vastly complex system to true intelligence is like the change from "some cells" to "a human". Whether you think this change occurs at conception "sperm+egg=human" or later in development... At some point, newly existing life gains Forces. Dogs. Humans. Whatever. I humbly suggest that if anything develops true sentience, it would develop Forces as well, if you favor a world where a computer system could ever attain true sentience. It's not a bad idea. A Bad Idea is: "How many forces does an amoeba have?" or "If a creature can reproduce asexually, is it a way to turn ingested protein into new Forces?" Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:12:54 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Limits of Balseraph Resonance At 10:31 AM -0700 10/22/99, David Barr wrote: >> In angelic, most Balseraph lies come out, "I believe X" instead of >> "X!" >> Which is perfectly reasonable, and Seraphim prefer such hedging of >> bets. > >Scenario that this brings to mind.... >J. Random Seraph standing before a Malakim, Says (in angelic tongue) >"I beleive that I am a Seraph." One flaw in this scenerio is that, barring the War-Distinction, no one can speak angelic in corporeal form. You have to go celestial first, and then the feathers kind of confirm it. Helltongue, a corrupt form of the original, _can_ be spoken in corporeal form. >This brings to mind another question. Since Malakim do not suffer >from Trauma, would it then make sense if they were notriously >unsympathetic to angels who do (i.e. everyone else)? >Would it stand to reason that some (newly fledged) Malakim do not >even know about trauma? Read, hm... http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/fiction/maya/caliah4.html and http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/fiction/maya/maher.html for some very good depictions of a young Malakite. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:25:27 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Zadkiel.....? In a message dated 10/22/99 6:59:14 PM, redneck@detnet.com writes: > >... anything at all? > >Redneck > Umm, huh? What did you want to know about the Archangel of Protection? Mark (Slightly confused, but game...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:47:30 -0500 From: Kris Overstreet Subject: Re: IN> Zadkiel.....? At 03:25 PM 10/22/99 EDT, you wrote: > >In a message dated 10/22/99 6:59:14 PM, redneck@detnet.com writes: > >> >>... anything at all? >> >>Redneck >> >Umm, huh? What did you want to know about the Archangel of Protection? Something which was meant for Beth, not the general list. Oopsie. Redneck Kris Overstreet, too many websites.... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Personal homepage http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - Business webpage http://www.antarctic-press.com/ - Someone else's page ... not enough time ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:35:20 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 14:02 -0400 10/22/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 10/22/99 10:15:27 AM Central Daylight Time, >milliken@io.com writes: > ><< >Technically, In In Nomine terms, you don't have a soul unless you have > >Celestial Forces. An AI will not have Celestial Forces unless a Superior > >gives it some. > > Humans get them all the time without Superior intervention -- I don't > see anything to forbid an AI "growing" Cel. Forces as it becomes sentient. >> > >Humans naturally have Celestial forces. They're built that way. If an AI can >grow Celestial forces then there's no reason that, say, a Remnant could as >well. And we all tend to be in agreement that they can't do that. You're missing the point. A Remnant is a celestial, and a broken one at that. It's not really a part of the corporeal realm, nor does it belong to the celestial any more. An AI, created through the natural processes of the corporeal Symphony (i.e., humans, and not celestial intervention) is not necessarily any more unnatural than a human baby. Until someone actually builds an AI in the IN universe, the question of whether or not it would have a soul is simply speculative (probably CDaU, and certainly a GM call right now). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:38:23 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 14:25 -0400 10/22/99, trina mccowan wrote: >O.K i'm new. i haven't bought anybooks yet but i have kinda kept up on >general information. now here's my question: so are you saying that besides >having to be nice to your kitty in IN, that it has a soul too? If I recall correctly, the writeup of Jordi's section of Heaven states that animal souls go there after death. There is also a statement that there are no animals in Hell (except demonlings, which are just proto-demons, and not really animals -- they just sort of fill that ecological niche). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:41:35 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Another question At 14:49 -0400 10/22/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> Also, Seraphim of Wind can use Fast-Talk, > >Or, looked at another way, all Seraphim can use Fast-Talk, and they get a >bonus. Correct. I should have said "are encouraged by their Choir attunement to use Fast-Talk". I think other Seraphim tend to avoid using that skill, though they can if they must. >I wonder sometimes about certain expressions (alas, I can't think of them >at the moment) that are used in conversation to mean the opposite of what >they might, on a literal meaning, be thought to mean. I imagine Seraphim >tend to avoid these, as they give them headaches. (No, I'm not referring >to sarcasm.) That seems reasonable. My Seraphim tend to sound rather pedantic. (OK, so *I* sound pedantic -- they tend to be more so....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:56:41 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Zadkiel.....? From: Kris Overstreet > > ... anything at all? I'll second that one- my PC is in service to Protection, and I've been wanting more information on her for awhile now... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:30:34 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV discussion >At 8:05 PM -0500 10/21/99, Ben Chism wrote: > >Speaking of INS/MV... [...] Also, is there an English translation...my > >French is really rusty.... > >The authorized English translation/adaptation _is_ IN/SJG, as I've >been known to call it. If you find a dead-trees copy or a web-page >with _direct_ translations, it's violating the copyright both of the >French company, and will have problems with SJ Games. (Which doesn't mean >you can't try to get a friend to send you email if they happen to have >a copy and wish to make translations. Just don't advertise that you'll >send out such translations on your web-page, or otherwise violate the >spirit of copyright, and there won't be any hard feelings.) > >Summaries are, of course, another matter. (But early on, when Moriah >was still LE, he came down hard on someone who posted the INS/MV version >of Malphus to the list. Copyright violation. Don' do it or I'll have >to come down hard too.) Ick. >Get the rust-remover for your French... O:> >(Or, yes, get Babelfish -- I wish there were a Mac version! It's done >a passable job on some French pages I found when doing an altavista >search on In Nomine.) If you, or anyone, needs some french rust remover, I just received my copy of INS/MV a week or so ago, and my french **isn't** rusty. (The book really is a fun read. If you read french. :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Si vous voulez un peu d'aide a traduire le francais, donnez-moi un coup d'e-mail." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:34:33 PDT From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV discussion >The authorized English translation/adaptation _is_ IN/SJG, as I've >been known to call it. If you find a dead-trees copy or a web-page >with _direct_ translations, it's violating the copyright both of the >French company, and will have problems with SJ Games. (Which doesn't mean >you can't try to get a friend to send you email if they happen to have >a copy and wish to make translations. Just don't advertise that you'll >send out such translations on your web-page, or otherwise violate the >spirit of copyright, and there won't be any hard feelings.) I can give a little help here and there, but I won't be party to large scale copyright violations >Summaries are, of course, another matter. (But early on, when Moriah >was still LE, he came down hard on someone who posted the INS/MV version >of Malphus to the list. Copyright violation. Don' do it or I'll have >to come down hard too.) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Le francais n'est rien sauf un autre code a craquer, comme les mathematiques ou les langues des espions." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:46:50 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 11:27 AM -0400 10/22/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 1:46 -0400 10/23/99, Steel Angel wrote: > >Good question. In theory, if it had true sentience and free will, then it >would presumably be subject to the same choices humans have. If it wasn't >truly free-willed, then it would probably wind up in Heaven, like >animals do. (Can't you just see Jordi's reaction to a computer soul >showing up on the Savanah, though...?) I see Jordi taking it in. After all, he created many creatures of Myth, and mourned their destruction and treated them as other animals. That these Computer Souls were human born originally doesn't change the fact that they're animal souls -- I just don't see Jordi being that sort of hypocrite. Jordi only disliked humanity because they were overbalancing the rest, and they weren't being restrained by the rest, after all. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:08:13 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Zadkiel.....? From: > > Mark (Slightly confused, but game...) Still in Trauma after your last mission from Asmodeus, are you? >:) Prodigal Demon of Calling In To Tech Support Without The Product Nearby ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:52:51 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN At 10:15 AM -0700 10/22/99, Jo Hart wrote: >At 1:46 -0400 10/23/99, Steel Angel wrote: > >People make quite a big deal of Jean doling out information to >humanity, but it's also his job to make sure that stuff that mankind >isn't ready for is NOT available to them. We may never know how many >alchemists in the middle ages had truly happened upon the secret of >the elixir of life -- they all died in unfortunate boating >accidents... Actually, I was under the impression that if a mortal scientist makes a discovery on his own without demonic or angelic help, Jean will yes-and it and support it, regardless of whether humanity is ready for it. He tries to keep their achievements on a very specific track, but when they leapfrog, he's stuck with it. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 99 09:38:19 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Mercurians and psychological warfare > > And then you can use the Jar-Jarinizer and convert it into Gungin. > > "Meesa Gab-Gab Riel. Meesa biiiig archangel. Yousa gonna *fry!*" > > > -- > Eric Alfred Burns | > | now with web site content! > > Very Funny...(Azrael reads again and Laughs out Loud) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:47:14 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Choir/Band Names > > Where do the names of the following choirs and bands come from? What > > are their origins and/or meanings? -- > > > > Mercurians > > Impudites > > Habbalah > > Callabim > > Balseraphs > > > > I know where the others come from, but not these. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Earl > > > > Could Impudite come from the the word Impudence perhaps? > I know for a fact that I have heared of Habbalah outside of IN. > > Azrael My best guess on Mercurians is that this is a reference to the old crystal-spheres cosmology, with angels assigned to each of the Spheres. Hence, Mercurians would be the Angels of the Sphere of Mercury. I think this was a geocentric cosmology from about the time of Dante Allegheiri [sp?]. [see, I did learn something in Eng. Lit. way back when]. Tom Timberlake, Angel of Poingy Goodness - -- "Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in Hell!" --"Strange Blood" "A Wolfrider's Reflection", various artist ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 99 09:55:27 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN > Another idea: (I'm just full of 'em, tonight), what does everyone think >Jean and Vapula's stand on Artificial Intelligence is? While I'm sure Vapula >loves the idea of intelligent kill-bots, what about truly self-aware machines >or software intelligences? Hmm. I reckon that Vapula would love 'em, perhaps these Kill-bots wouldn't be truly sentinent but vessels for the Shedim.... Or perhaps Vapula's sick little mind could devise a way for the AI to take over a celestial (usually a demon) in trauma, from which would then take its soul and personallity...or something. The type of celestial would define whether it was a got 'bot or a bad 'bot, what it was good at (destroying stuff/taking itself apart and looking sheepish - Calabim, Taking stuff/taking over computers or people with its datajack and Fully Automated Mind Control Device- Shedim etc..) > And what would be the disposition of the "soul" of >such a being? I believe they would be the Elohim of the Demon world completely obejective about almost everything....after all they are demonic in orginal, so I think they would be subjective about themselves. Acting for themselves above all else They may be given a demonic boiunty hunter type job (they could be hunting demons for the Game, Angels for most others, for food for Ha'agenti or for halibuts for Kobal etc..) For example: A demon is marked by the game kill-bot Neville-1 (working title) is called in to geek him. Aforementioned demon may be found in Demonic Tether. The K.B. must complete its mission. So it calmly levels the whole building and all the demons inside with its patented Mega-Kill-O-Zap Gun : Better at Killing and Zapping than the H.H.G.T.G. original. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 99 10:05:58 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Yet more Mercs In Responce to question 5). I don't want spoil anyones dreams and aspirations, but isn't Professional Wrestling just an act anyway? With thi in mindI'd let a Merc. do it. But They'd feel really weird even acting like they were be violent towards a human. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:38:09 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN >From: Whistling in the Dark >>At 10:15 AM -0700 10/22/99, Jo Hart wrote: >> >>People make quite a big deal of Jean doling out information to >>humanity, but it's also his job to make sure that stuff that mankind >>isn't ready for is NOT available to them. We may never know how many >>alchemists in the middle ages had truly happened upon the secret of >>the elixir of life -- they all died in unfortunate boating >>accidents... > >Actually, I was under the impression that if a mortal scientist makes >a discovery on his own without demonic or angelic help, Jean will >yes-and it and support it, regardless of whether humanity is ready >for it. Nope, main book says, "Jean usually chalks this sort of thing up to Lucifer and Vapula" -- so he assumes that if they seem to be making dodgy discoveries, it was probably demonically inspired (and presumably, deals with it accordingly). But that doesn't mean he is always right in this assumption ... I'm sure humanity is quite capable of making undesirable scientific discoveries on its own. In fact, if you look at Vapula's write-up, he's much more likely to steal ideas from humanity than to inspire them. jo (Besides, this makes Jean a much more interesting and ambivalent character, which is good IMO) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 11:16:52 +1000 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Re: Fluff - Angelic Fruit (Was Re: IN> Mecurians and psychological warfare) >>So, what is the resonance of kiwis? What are their dissonance conditions? >>What's their opposing band? :-) > >Resonance: greeness and fuzzyness. >Dissonance: being eaten, rotting. >Opposing Band: Rutebagas. Rutebagas of course being a unique band of Kobal - there's just so many jokes and dirty stories, and stuff. Kris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 13:07:56 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN AI can come into being in the In Nomine continuity in several ways. Humanity *created* the ethereal spirits through their dreams. Ethereal spirits have many abilities and tricks that mirror Celestial abilities and tricks. Imagine an ethereal spirit that can duplicate the Kyriotate of Jean attunement. What if a Kyriotate of Jean *falls* while in possession of a computer? Jean would never approve of one of his Kyriotates pretending to be an AI, one suspects, but once the Kyriotate in question is a Shedim, and somehow still in possession of his previous host... Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1372 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.