From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Oct 25 14:47:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04661 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:47:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA27434 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:47:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:47:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199910251947.OAA27434@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1375 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, October 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1375 In this digest: Re: IN> Relationships in IN IN> Fluff from another planet Re: IN> Fluff from another planet Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: A question. Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Relationships in IN Re: IN> AI in IN IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> bright lilim question Re: IN> Re: AI in IN Re: IN> Re: AI in IN Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> Re: AI in IN Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> Relationships in IN Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> AI in IN IN> This seems apropos . . . Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . Re: IN> Relationships in IN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:55:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN Interestingly enough, John Milton, in "Paradise Lost," mentions physical "relationships" between his angels. His angels have aeriel bodies, essentially masses of animated air that can expand, contract, and shapeshift freely. He imagines for them physical displays of affection in which the two aeriel bodies mingle, like the scents of two perfumes, for a time. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:09:49 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: IN> Fluff from another planet [GROUP] The Drones Club -- Servitors of Stone The Drones are an old, respected fellowship of angels -- their association is dedicated to brotherhood, to keeping the angelic end up, and to having a jolly good time! But the most important thing, to which they all swear solemn oaths on a regular basis, is that ... come Hell or high water, Drones stick together! Members are personally invited through connections, recommendations from other Drones, or being generally regarded as 'sound', or 'a good chap to have around in a pinch.' Initiation rites involve what other celestials might term 'puerile and pointless stunts' such as locating a pair of Gabriel's flame-retardant thigh-high boots and hoisting them on a flagpole by Michael's personal tent. Almost all of the Drones are in service to Stone, and claim that they are doing a bloody good job of keeping the flag flying, and enhancing David's good name in Heaven and on Earth. It's probably just as well that the dour Archangel of Stone takes a long time to notice minor annoyances. Others are loosely associated with Janus, who not only finds the whole thing quite amusing but has actually graced the Drones club with his presence in the past. Sadly, this has not conferred much legitimacy on the proceedings amongst more inflexible-minded archangels. Most of the Drones are ... not over-endowed with Ethereal Forces, but are frightfully well meaning (the phrase 'good intentions pave the road to Hell' was never so well used). The most notorious member, Freddiel, is a cheerful Ofanite who often manages to zip out of sight of the Cherub who is supposed to be keeping him out of trouble when 'the chaps' need a bit of a hand. - -- Plot Seeds Ziggy, a young Mercurian of Stone, has a problem. He's in love! This isn't just a minor crush; it's the Real Thing, a divine pash, a bolt from the wide blue yonder! The object of his affections is a shy Kyriotate of Flowers, called Petal. Unfortunately, the course of true love does not run smooth. Petal is under the protection of Hepzibah, a fearsome Seraph (also in service to Novalis) who has very strong views on the proper associations for a young Flower -- which do not, in her opinion, include half-witted servitors of Stone. Fortunately, his pals in the Drones Club have agreed to come to the rescue. Faint heart never won fair maiden -- and they are determined that Ziggy _will_ prove his purity of purpose, moral integrity, deep interest in all things floral and abhorrance of mindless violence -- the honour of the Drones is at stake! As luck would have it, there is a local flower show in the next month, which the Flower Angels will be attending. Surely it would be impressive if Ziggy were to show his dedication by breeding some prize-winning roses, and naming them after his beloved! But the world of competitive rose growing is fraught with vicious antagonists who might stop at nothing to win the first prize. What's worse, some servitors of Theft are planning to use the flower show as an opportunity to fence some assorted relics which they've collected over the past year. Naturally, they will all be disguised as flower growers, locals, or mysterious gypsy wenches... PCs who are Drones, or friends of Drones, may be drafted in to help the hapless Ziggy shape up. If they are allies of Flowers then Aunt Hepzibah may intimidate them into being Petal's chaperones (as much as anyone can chaperone a Kyrio) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:37:58 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Fluff from another planet At 9:09 AM -0700 10/25/99, Jo Hart wrote: >[GROUP] The Drones Club -- Servitors of Stone > >Most of the Drones are ... not over-endowed with Ethereal Forces, >but are frightfully well meaning (the phrase 'good intentions pave >the road to Hell' was never so well used). The most notorious >member, Freddiel, is a cheerful Ofanite who often manages to zip out >of sight of the Cherub who is supposed to be keeping him out of >trouble when 'the chaps' need a bit of a hand. Would the Cherub be named Jeevel? Or is Jeevel the unflappable Elohite who acts as Freddiel's Man Friday? This is brilliant. Totally brilliant. And, may I add, rather smashing to boot. Rather! - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:19:35 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: A question. Regarding whether a Choir must 'just obey the rules...' In canon, it's an outgrowth of their nature so they tend to go whole-package. On the other hand, some of us really liked the tastes of the game we got years and years ago. That includes me. And the IN product as delivered is completely usable for reflecting a much lower contrast game. There, perhaps the angels are like Nicole. All of them. Or just a decent percentage. One in which angels are better than demons only because they fight them...and find ways to work around God's rules(the nature of reality) without breaking them. One in which all celestial beings are inherently flawed. The reason God has not thrown down smite on the demons...whatever it is...is the reason He has not thrown down smite on the angels. Perhaps He gave up trying to make both sides Understand and is now ignoring them in favor of his current project. Humanity. This would explain why the angels don't know anything about prophets, Jesus, etcetera. They're no longer in the loop. They are obsolete, but flaws in their creation allow them to keep gumming up the works. It's a very dark setting. Someday I might even run a game based on it. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:58:55 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Whistling in the Dark > > We postulated that they had Celestial Forces and therefore went to > Heaven. If that's the case, Jordi would welcome them, IMHO. > > I'm *not* advocating sentient computers, just working with the > postulate and Jordi. > i guess i can't argue with that :) > > As I said, it's Canon he did. Uriel's take was that Jordi shouldn't > be making creatures, and therefore they were fair game. Much like > Blandine's side of the Marches was fair game to go and raze in the > name of Purity. As I recall, it's in the History section of the > Angelic Player's Guide, as well as other places. > i can't find anything in the main book, the Marches or the APG which says jordi made the creatures of myth. surely if he had created them, they wouldn't *be* creatures of myth. they'd just be creatures. plus if uriel had started attacking jordi's actual creations, this would have been tantamount to attacking jordi's servitors. bingo, civil war in heaven. from what i've read, i don't think archangels can create new life (except for angels). they can create facsimiles of living things - vessels - but these are phyisical objects without a soul > > Well, not by these definitions. A rat who learns how to navigate a > maze and receive cheese is reasoning and conceptualizing by the > definitions of most AI research. We're a long long long long long > way from HAL 9000. If we could build an AI capable of the same level > of stimulus/response/learning/behavior modification as, say, a dog -- > well, there'd be a lot of happy scientists out there. > but would a program that could find its way through mazes be self-aware? or just good at getting through mazes? > > I see Jordi as a totally nice guy. The problem he has is, one > species on Earth has overbalanced the others. Now, with all other > species, he was able to go in and take punative measures to ensure > the balance of the whole, the web of life, was preserved. > in the APG it says jordi wanted to wipe all of humanity out, and was only just talked out of it by michael. he's certainly "eccentirc", if not as mad as gabirel in his own way. he's certainly as fanatical as dominic > But when he went in to do this with Humanity, he was told he > couldn't. And he saw the imbalance grow and grow, but he can't do > anything about it. Humanity's 'special.' They're above the rules > that govern all other animals. > i see jordi as dismissing the things that supposedly make humanity special. so what if they can choose between good and evil? too many of them go for evil anyway. i doubt he ever lets anyone forget that all animal souls come to heaven > So Jordi's got a mad on about them. If you gave him control for just > a *few* years, he'd winnow them out and force them into healthy > competition again. And if that meant they had to go away -- well, > c'est la vie. The dinosaurs had to pass on when it was time, and so > does humanity. > > But they won't *let* him. It's *very* simple and it would make > things *ever* so much better but they *won't* *let* *him.* > i wonder if any of the more fanatical servitors of jordi have considered trying to set off a nuclear war. another ice age would knock those pesky humans back to the stone age... > That doesn't mean it's the fault of any species who shows up on the > Savannah. They're not human, and AI's who showed up there certainly > wouldn't be overbalancing the web of life. It's Heaven for them too, > after all.... > i guess if you say they turn up in the savannah, then jordi would see it as part of the divine plan and accept them. i guess i don't think they'd turn up in the savannah liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:02:22 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN - ----- Original Message ----- From: Whistling in the Dark > > The whole War is about the Symphony meeting its Destiny or its Fate. > And the demons and angels don't get to decide that, no matter how > much Michael and Baal wish otherwise. Armageddon, in the end, is > written on the hearts of man, not in the annals of a battle roll. If > Selflessness wins, then the Demons will ultimately be proven wrong. > The importance of Man becomes apparent. The Fall was a mistake and > they're on the wrong side. If Selfishness wins, then the Demons were > right, and God's plan was screwed up, and Lucifer was right to deny > it and these fallible creatures. > agree with you 100%. IMC that's why god created humanity, as a sort of "litmus test" for his symphony, to see whether it all works in the end or not. > > I play my game the same way -- God is God, Ethereals are Ethereals.... > > But my *Ethereals* are convinced it's the other way around, and no > one can be quite *sure.* It's faith, not fact. Which is appropriate > for a religious game, I think. > i agree that it does help if you allow ethereals to carry on being arrogant and self-righteous :) makes 'em more fun as NPCs liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:06:56 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Earl Wajenberg > Perhaps AIs would go to *Jean's* Cathedral when they die, rather > than to Jordi's. > i'd go with this. after all, in a sense they're beings of electricity > If AIs achieve sentience/Celestial forces without anyone immediately > noticing, there might be an awkward time-gap in which the only > ones noticing the way they turn up in Heaven might be that seraph > at the Pearly Gates (I forget its name) and, presumably, Yves. > Jean himself would be next, but strikes me as the sort who could > easily get buried in his current project list and not become aware > of new topics unless they are brought to his attention through > standard channels. > i'd assume that yves would be aware of them as soon as the first AI gained sentience. at that point it would gain the ability to have a destiny and a fate (so i guess kronos would know as well). i'd say that if IYC you wanted AIs to have souls, yves and jean (not to mention kronos and vapula) would have already seen the possibility and been making preparations for years. not to say that heaven and hell wouldn't be shaken up when it actually happened, of course liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:14:54 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Earl Wajenberg > > I would put it more strongly: in the IN universe, the Celestial > Forces ARE the sentience, so to develop the one is to develop the other. > i'd pretty much go along with this > > What God does in one case, He can do in another: > > Jean, addressing a consternated Seraphim Council: > the thing i don't like about this is that it takes a scientific, atheistic view of the mind. it's basically saying that humans can act the way they do because their brains are built in a particularly complex way. if you built something in an equally complex way, it will work just like a human brain and therefore be just as sentient. (as i said before, this is a view that i happen to agree with in the real world). but this doesn't really take into account the fact that in IN living things have souls that were given to them by god. in a game based on a supernatural, religious premise i prefer to keep the idea that the soul is something special and unique, not something you can create by sticking the right pieces together > metabolic infrastructure, this simplicity gives it a great deal of > speed--" > > (Janus: "Cool! I get the first AI saint!") > > Jean: "You do NOT. *I*-- Hem. lol :) you don't think david would want first dibs on the first silicon-based lifeforms? one way i could see of maybe working in sentient AIs would be to have those humans who don't achieve their destiny/fate and get reincarnated, being reincaranted into these new patterns of forces liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:20:49 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN From: Chris Bergstresser > Angel's don't "consider" themselves anything. The gender of vessels has > no more import for any of them than a particular set of clothes does for > humans. > i wouldn't go that far. most angels that appear in the game (including archangels) seem to prefer one gender or another. same for demons. this seems to suggest they at least prefer wearing a certain style of "clothes" liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:43:38 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN > the thing i don't like about this is that it takes a scientific, atheistic > view of the mind. it's basically saying that humans can act the way they do > because their brains are built in a particularly complex way. if you built > something in an equally complex way, it will work just like a human brain > and therefore be just as sentient. (as i said before, this is a view that i > happen to agree with in the real world). but this doesn't really take into > account the fact that in IN living things have souls that were given to them > by god. in a game based on a supernatural, religious premise i prefer to > keep the idea that the soul is something special and unique, not something > you can create by sticking the right pieces together Nothing you've said precludes God from making certain rules for his Symphony. What if one of those rules is that if something reaches a certain sophistication, it begins generating Celestial Forces? That would keep God very aloof from Humanity -- he doesn't even bother sending souls anymore, he just rigged the Symphony so that when people are born, they automatically get one, because they meet criteria A, B and C... ...and there's nothing preventing a group of clever humans from creating something that also meets criteria A, B and C... which would qualify it, by God's Law, to generate Celestial Forces. Naturally, if God were interested, he'd give it a soul himself. But he runs the Universe on auto-pilot these days. If you disagree, then we have a few problems. If only God gives out souls and he does so ACTIVELY rather than PASSIVELY, then how the heck does Lucifer make demons? Does God pop down into hell and *poof* give the demon a soul? I imagine that'd destroy heavenly morale. And if God is popping around Earth a few thousand times a minute giving out souls, wouldn't that confirm his existence and make the whole war (or at least 1/3 of it) moot? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:46:35 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Ok, so, like, what the heck is the point of Jordi? Do folks actually run a game with servitors of this joker? I'd sooner shack up with a Dominican than one of these maniacs. Seems you'd need some particular loose flower-girls (sorry, Novalis) to tolerate this nutter, or folks who like to hate humans just as much (Malakim of Gabby?)... Was he just added as filler to explain what happens to animals? Or has this question already been done to death? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:38:28 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) From: The Alien > > This would explain why the angels don't know anything about prophets, > Jesus, etcetera. They're no longer in the loop. They are obsolete, but > flaws in their creation allow them to keep gumming up the works. > > It's a very dark setting. Someday I might even run a game based on it. > have you seen "The Prophecy"? liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:46:45 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 5:58 PM +0100 10/25/99, Liam wrote: >From: Whistling in the Dark > >i guess if you say they turn up in the savannah, then jordi would see it as >part of the divine plan and accept them. i guess i don't think they'd turn >up in the savannah There, I agree 100%. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:59:48 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) I'm sure pretty much everyone on the list has. However, my world doesn't postulate a second war in Heaven or any kind of 'good' side. Essentially, the Fall and the reaction of the angels that remained to it showed Celestials to not be worth further use of. Imagine the implications. The Archangels haven't heard from God since shortly after the Fall. But they probably haven't exactly TOLD anyone that... It is, of course, a perfect world for MalDom. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:12:34 -0700 (PDT) From: john karakash Subject: Re: IN> bright lilim question - --- Azrael wrote: > I am not so sure that Bright Lilim are even angels. > After all The Book says that Lilim are not demons, > thus there analouges could not be angels. > Like a Lilim who are not quite demons, Bright Lilim > are not quite angels. > Although there appearence changes slightly. They do > not change. > Lilim Bright or otherwise are still Lilim. > IMHO it is not possible for a Bright Lilim to fall > as she has nowhere to fall from. Where does it say the Lilim aren't demons. Take it from me, ALL Lilim are either demons or Brights. What the book DOES say, however, is that LILITH is not a demon. She's definitely a human, but all of her creations are demons unless they redeem later. (And, just in case someone is wondering, Lilith CANNOT create Bright Lilim, just demonic ones. If she were to Redeem, however....) ===== +++Author, cook, computer genius, modest as heck +++ John Karakash __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:17:06 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN At 18:52 -0400 10/22/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 10:15 AM -0700 10/22/99, Jo Hart wrote: >>At 1:46 -0400 10/23/99, Steel Angel wrote: >> >>People make quite a big deal of Jean doling out information to >>humanity, but it's also his job to make sure that stuff that mankind >>isn't ready for is NOT available to them. We may never know how many >>alchemists in the middle ages had truly happened upon the secret of >>the elixir of life -- they all died in unfortunate boating >>accidents... > >Actually, I was under the impression that if a mortal scientist makes >a discovery on his own without demonic or angelic help, Jean will >yes-and it and support it, regardless of whether humanity is ready >for it. He tries to keep their achievements on a very specific >track, but when they leapfrog, he's stuck with it. That has certainly been my take on it. I see Jean as one of the main "non-interference" Archangels (along with Yves). Whatever the Symphony produces on its own, he'll accept. He limits his interference to support and guidance of human directions he thinks are beneficial to the Symphony, and to the opposition of demonic interference (primarily Vapula). He might view humans producing an AI as woefully ignorant of the dangers inherent in their actions, but not necessarily attempt to get rid of it. He hight, however, try to subtly discourage further development, on the theory that humans really aren't ready to deal with another race of their own creation. *One* AI probably isn't a threat to humanity's course, mass-production of them might easily be a disaster. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:34:08 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN At 2:38 -0400 10/23/99, Jo Hart wrote: >Nope, main book says, "Jean usually chalks this sort of thing up to Lucifer >and Vapula" This has been subtly changed in the GURPS IN draft; its now "often" instead of "usually". > -- so he assumes that if they seem to be making dodgy >discoveries, it was probably demonically inspired (and presumably, deals >with it accordingly). But that doesn't mean he is always right in this >assumption ... My interpretation of this is that he's likely to assume demonic interference as a working hypothesis, but not that his actions are dicated by that assumption. That would be a substantial bias -- *bad* news for an Elohite. In my games, this means he sends his Servitors off hunting for demonic interference a lot, not that he sends them off to stomp the discovery itself (unless the investigation turns up evidence of actual demonic interference). He also has a lot of people hanging around areas of high innovation, both to be on the lookout for demonic tampering and to influence human research directions (both toward things he considers beneficial, and away from things he thinks humans shouldn't play with yet). >I'm sure humanity is quite capable of making undesirable scientific >discoveries on its own. In fact, if you look at Vapula's write-up, he's much >more likely to steal ideas from humanity than to inspire them. Agreed. >jo >(Besides, this makes Jean a much more interesting and ambivalent character, >which is good IMO) I think there are other ways to do this, without making him Yet Another Totally-Crazy Archangel. In our campaign, his "non-interference" stance put him in the somewhat uncomfortable position of agreeing with Lilith's "hands off humans" viewpoint (though he certainly thinks carrying it to the point of "evolution in action" isn't right). This sometimes puts him in opposition to the more militant Archangels, who tend to think he's holding back on the *really* good tech -- stuff that might win the War -- just to keep it out of human hands. (As opposed to doing this out of pacifistic leanings.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:54:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Ben Glickler wrote: > Ok, so, like, what the heck is the point of Jordi? He's the Archangel of the animals, concerned with all non-human animal life. He doesn't like mankind - as someone on the list has said, he believes they shouldn't be treated any more 'special' than the other animals of the world, and detests God's 'hands-off' policy regarding them; but he does obey it. He's concerned with the lives and environment of all the animals in the world, from ensuring balanced predator/prey ratios in the Australian outback to preventing cruelty to stray cats at the local pound. And no, I don't think he's particularly 'dumb'. Very prejudiced, against humankind, but he'd hardly be the first singleminded Wordbound. > Do folks actually run a game with servitors of this joker? Right now our first angelic game is in the works, and all we've got is a few Dominicans and a Sword-Swinger, with three spots of potentiality left to go. But I can't see any reason why a Servitor of Jordi would be a problem.... > Was he just added as filler to explain what happens to animals? Ask Siroc Games or Derek, but I doubt that very much. > Or has this question already been done to death? First time I've ever seen it, actually - at least, in this form. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "Human germ!" -- Shrapnel (Decepticon), _Transformers: The Movie_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:49:27 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN >From: Walter Milliken >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >At 2:38 -0400 10/23/99, Jo Hart wrote: > >Nope, main book says, "Jean usually chalks this sort of thing up to >Lucifer > >and Vapula" > >This has been subtly changed in the GURPS IN draft; its now "often" instead >of "usually". But why? I liked it just fine the way it was. Jean is probably the most interventionist of archangels. It's his JOB to dole out knowledge, and you can't do that without intervening. It's also pretty clear that he doesn't really care if his angels make a lot of disturbance as they go about their duties. > >My interpretation of this is that he's likely to assume demonic >interference as a working hypothesis, but not that his actions are >dicated by that assumption. That would be a substantial bias -- *bad* >news for an Elohite. In my games, this means he sends his Servitors off >hunting for demonic interference a lot, not that he sends them off to >stomp the discovery itself (unless the investigation turns up evidence of >actual demonic interference). Different views then. In mine he would stomp the invention first (if it was judged to be dangerous) and then do the investigation. That is the most efficient way -- if it WAS evil, then you've stopped Hell from advancing their cause. If the discovery was good then some other mortal will find it on their own, or your angels can help. He also has a lot of people hanging around >areas of high innovation, both to be on the lookout for demonic tampering >and to influence human research directions (both toward things he considers >beneficial, and away from things he thinks humans shouldn't play with yet). There I agree. But he is an Elohite, and if the only way to get a mortal to stop investigating in bad ways is to kill them, then that is what he orders. >I think there are other ways to do this, without making him Yet Another >Totally-Crazy Archangel. I don't think he is crazy at all. Just quite single-minded about carrying out his duties the way HE thinks they should be done. He considers himself to be sufficiently intelligent that he can make those judgments (and maybe he is right). Archangels most into non-interference, IMO, are Blandine (celestials should remember that they are not native to the corporeal realm), & David (let them cope on their own). In our campaign, his "non-interference" stance >put him in the somewhat uncomfortable position of agreeing with Lilith's >"hands off humans" viewpoint Since when did Lilith have a "hands off humans" viewpoint? :) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:00:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? I imagine Jordi was originally invented for satirical purposes. For any other game flavor, yes, he's very awkward to work in except as an obstruction. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:08:00 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN >From: Chris Bergstresser > >> Angel's don't "consider" themselves anything. The gender of vessels >has >> no more import for any of them than a particular set of clothes does for >> humans. >> > >i wouldn't go that far. most angels that appear in the game (including >archangels) seem to prefer one gender or another. same for demons. this >seems to suggest they at least prefer wearing a certain style of "clothes" LOOK AT YVES!!!!!!!!!!!! *****HE***** has always manifested as a HUMAN MAlE in his celestial form. He was the first soul, thus much older than corporeal reality. So its not inconcievable for gender to be part of a celestial being's self image (with Michael being the most obvious example of the male archtype and Novalis on the other end being the most obvious example of the female archtype). Also Mercurians appear human in their celestial forms, and Elohim are humanoid. And unless the first Cherubs were created after corporeal reality with animals they also look like things that came later. Angels must have been rather surprised when they saw corporeal life resembling their celestial forms. This however may be something the ethereals use as part of their arguments for God having one been one of them. His servants reflect corporeal things, so they were created in those images. Since humanity is the center of ethereal's existance they'd point to Yves and Kronos as indications of God trying to pretend to be something greater than He is. Their still probably wrong, but it gives them a better place to argue from. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:17:06 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? > > Ok, so, like, what the heck is the point of Jordi? > > He's the Archangel of the animals, concerned with all non-human animal > life. He doesn't like mankind - as someone on the list has said, he > believes they shouldn't be treated any more 'special' than the other > animals of the world, and detests God's 'hands-off' policy regarding them; > but he does obey it. He's concerned with the lives and environment of all > the animals in the world, from ensuring balanced predator/prey ratios in > the Australian outback to preventing cruelty to stray cats at the local > pound. > And no, I don't think he's particularly 'dumb'. Very prejudiced, against > humankind, but he'd hardly be the first singleminded Wordbound. Ok, I should clarify -- by "dumb", I mean "virtually unplayable in any game that includes characters following bosses who approve of humanity and even encourage humanity, unless you want to play a servitor who always goes solo from his friends because he detests the humans they work with but feels some burning need to play a Green Party angel serving some half-looney boss but still work with other angels in cities and stuff like that" I just don't see how servitors of Jordi are viable character concepts. You'd have to be way mellow about working with humans (bet your boss would love that), only hang out with other Jord-heads, or have some straw-grasping excuse to hang out with your buds ("I wanna make sure they don't inadventantly hit a stray cat at the local pound when the fighting starts.")... On the other hand (and here's where the Libra in me changes his mind), there was the bird-brain in the books who was watching over a human destined to fall in love with birds, I *guess* you could do that and hate all the *other* humans... > First time I've ever seen it, actually - at least, in this form. I get that a lot. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:22:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Wade Trupke Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN Is there a way that celestials can 'see' that something has Celestial forces? If not, then I'd think they would think of an AI the same way we think of current state-of-the-art AI-programs: "Wow, that's an amazing replication of human-like thought patterns!" The idea of something not designed by God possessing a soul just wouldn't occur to most of them. That is, until one showed up in Jean's Cathedral (or Jordi's Savannah, if you prefer). Or a Yvesie/Kronosite asks, "Why does that computer have a Destiny/Fate?" (Assuming that an AI does become self-aware and develops a soul. I don't believe such a thing is possible in the real world, but what you do in your game world is your business.) Demonic response would be rather simple: Corrupt 'em and use 'em! And hey, souls you can corrupt just by editing a few lines of code... Angelic response would be much more varied. The status of AI souls would be debated. Even in the face of evidence, the idea that humans can produce beings with souls would be nigh-blasphemous. I can even see a few Elohim falling, not being able to believe the evidence before their eyes. (Now, these would have to be Elohim with poor views of humanity in the first place, so their position in the War would be a bit questionable in the first place.) Once they decide that yes, these strange streams of 1s and 0s do have souls, there's the matter of what to do with them. Most angels would treat them as any other souls; protect them, and encourage them toward their Destinies. But there would be some who believe that these beings are either blasphemous, or are too easily corruptible. Who would work to actively discourage the creation of such 'souls'. Just tossing out some thoughts. More thoughts than I had originally intended... Wade (is there an opening for Angel of Verbosity?) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:46:49 -0400 From: "Chris Bergstresser" Subject: IN> This seems apropos . . . http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/stories/1509.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:32:05 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN Wade Trupke wrote: > Angelic response would be much more varied. The > status of AI souls would be debated. Even in the > face of evidence, the idea that humans can > produce beings with souls would be > nigh-blasphemous. As I implied in an earlier post, just because humans manufacture AIs, it doesn't follow that humans create the souls of AIs, any more than humans breeding implies humans create the souls of their children. Actually, there are roughly three schools of thought on the origin of human souls, within Judeo-Christian theology. 1) Creation: The idea that God individually creates each soul when the body is created (pick a time between conception and birth). This is probably the most common. 2) Pre-existence: The idea that God created all the souls He'll ever need at the beginning of time, but they wait in Heaven until their numbers come up and they can incarnate. 3) "Traduction": The idea that the souls of the parents generate the souls of their babies, in parallel as their bodies generate the babies' bodies. Oddly, this one was favored by Luther. Any of these could be adapted to the existence of ensouled AIs, though the last implies some rather odd things happening to the souls of AI software developers. #3 is also probably the one most compatible with the IN universe generally, since, as was pointed out in an earlier post, the other two make God complicit in creating the souls of demons. (This problem doesn't come up in standard theology, where all angels and demons were supposed to be created, initially unfallen, at the beginning of time.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:34:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> This seems apropos . . . How about that? An In-Nomine/Lensman/Illuminati crossover. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:02:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Tim Groth wrote: > >i wouldn't go that far. most angels that appear in the game (including > >archangels) seem to prefer one gender or another. same for demons. this > >seems to suggest they at least prefer wearing a certain style of "clothes" > LOOK AT YVES!!!!!!!!!!!! > *****HE***** has always manifested as a HUMAN MAlE in his celestial form. Whoa, there Tim... relax, man. S'no big deal. :) > He was the first soul, thus much older than corporeal reality. So its not > inconcievable for gender to be part of a celestial being's self image (with > Michael being the most obvious example of the male archtype and Novalis on > the other end being the most obvious example of the female archtype). > Also Mercurians appear human in their celestial forms, and Elohim are > humanoid. And unless the first Cherubs were created after corporeal > reality with animals they also look like things that came later. Angels > must have been rather surprised when they saw corporeal life resembling > their celestial forms. The way I've always figured it, originally, Heaven was much more varied. There weren't as many distinctions... perhaps originally, there were no choirs - just Angels. Over time, things started to solidify more and more, and the choirs formed... angels that bonded with the humans became Mercurians, angels that felt a bond with the fires of the stars became Ofanim, and so on. That's the only explanation that makes sense... I mean, it would make no sense at all to have Mercurians in existence before humans had evolved! So the whole concept of 'Mercurian' solidified in Heaven after humans had been around for a century or so... (Note: Don't know if this is canon or not, but it's the only way I can see to have things make sense.) - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "There he goes - one of God's own prototypes. A high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production... too weird to live, too rare to die." -- Hunter Thompson, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1375 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.