From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Oct 26 00:39:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11310 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 00:39:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id AAA31975 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 00:38:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 00:38:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199910260538.AAA31975@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1377 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, October 26 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1377 In this digest: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? IN> Ethereals (was AI) Re: IN> Re: AI in IN Re: IN> Relationships in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> bright lilim question Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> RE> More on Mercs. Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> I Have Some Questions Sons of Adam, Daughters of Eve (was Re: IN> AI in IN) IN> Discord IN> Azrael (Not Me) Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN IN> Adventure Seed IN> Is God Still Watching?(was AI in IN I think) IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1376 IN> Increase Your Sales Immediately! (16760) Re: IN> AI in IN IN> 2 Minute Eggs Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Relationships in IN IN> Balakim (WAS: RE (Nicole Fluff)) IN> Vapula's Gadgets Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? IN> A.I. & Souls ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:42:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) At 10:30 PM +0100 10/25/99, Liam wrote: >From: The Alien > >> >> It is, of course, a perfect world for MalDom. >> > >maldom? que? Dominic was originally a Cherub. And then a Malakite. Or maybe vice versa. (I've seen drafts which have both Choirs, and am not quite sure which was which.) Since Balseraph Dominic is BalDom, Malakite Dominic is MalDom. (And then there are Balakim of Fate, but we won't talk about those...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:33:51 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 21:13 -0400 10/24/99, Liam wrote: >personally, i agree that there's nothing in theory to stop an AI being as >alive and sentient as a human being. in terms of the IN game, however, God >created us and gave us souls and stuff, Ah, I don't believe there's *anything* in IN canon that says this. As far as I recall, the only humans directly created by God were those in the Eden experiment. (And there were humans before that, who evolved.) Certainly nothing I can remember says God gives a soul to each IN human, personally. One could argue that God created humans indirectly (by setting the universe in motion with a particular path in His omniscient mind) or directly (since humans are part of the Symphony, and the Symphony *is* Him in IN cosmology). But neither of those arguments says that *other* entities with souls can't be created similarly. > and i don't think a computer could, >no matter how clever, be truly "alive". not any more alive than a car or a >calculator could That's a perfectly valid value judgment, and probably consistent with most Christian thinking (and likely many other religions). But as far as I know, it's firmly in the CDaU realm in IN, as far as canon is concerned. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:40:45 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 21:17 -0400 10/24/99, Liam wrote: >> An AI, created through the natural processes of the corporeal Symphony >> (i.e., humans, and not celestial intervention) is not necessarily any >> more unnatural than a human baby. > >of course it is. humans only exist in the first place due to celestial >intervention There's nothing I know of in IN canon to support this, other than the early stuff in angelic history about creating the Earth. Canon definitely supports an evolution model for the appearance of humans on Earth -- they were a bit of a surprise to the angels when they first appeared, as I recall the APG history. In canon, the only humans created directly by celestial forces (apparently God, in this case) are Lilith, Adam, and Eve, and they are definitely *not* the ancestors of all humans since; there were other humans around before them. (This raises the interesting question about whether there are *any* extant human descendents of any of the Eden trio.... The Bible certainly says Adam and Eve's descendants lived on, but canon "reality" often diverges from the Bible.) >> Until someone actually builds an AI in >> the IN universe, the question of whether or not it would have a soul is >> simply speculative (probably CDaU, and certainly a GM call right now). > >actually, i bet yves or jean would be fairly certain about the matter. Yves might actually know. I'm not so certain about Jean -- it's really a little outside his area, which is primarily *corporeal* matters, not celestial ones like what has souls and what doesn't. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:48:57 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? At 13:46 -0400 10/25/99, Ben Glickler wrote: >Ok, so, like, what the heck is the point of Jordi? Do folks actually run a >game with servitors of this joker? I'd sooner shack up with a Dominican >than one of these maniacs. Seems you'd need some particular loose >flower-girls (sorry, Novalis) to tolerate this nutter, or folks who like to >hate humans just as much (Malakim of Gabby?)... Some of this carries over from INS/MV, I suspect, where it's simply normal for Archangels to be totally crazy and disfunctional. For an example of how Animals servitors can mix with other angels, see Maya's Fiat game logs (I think they're linked off the INC, but I'm not sure). There's a very interesting, and rather bizarre, Kyrio of Animals in that game, who manages quite neatly to keep the flavor of the Word while managing to function (sometimes barely) with others. So it's possible, though a good Animals servitor will be a very different viewpoint than most angelic characters would be, and therefore probably harder to play. I don't think I'd try it, but then I'm generally gadget-happy, which makes my mindset rather far from the Word of Animals.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 08:53:12 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Ethereals (was AI) I prefer to think of ethereals as Terry Pratchett in the Discworld series explains anthropomoprhic personifactions and gods, ideas, concepts and suchlike that already exist, but then belief shapes and strenghtens them into forms created by the belief. For example: Santa Claus, was originally the idea of "Christmas Spirit and Giving" however as people began to believe in him or it, he took on form. Beginning as say a Saint, then progressing through his different forms until Coca-Cola came up with his current appearence and belief for that form grew. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:00:14 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN At 14:49 -0400 10/25/99, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Walter Milliken >> >Nope, main book says, "Jean usually chalks this sort of thing up to >>Lucifer >> >and Vapula" >> >>This has been subtly changed in the GURPS IN draft; its now "often" instead >>of "usually". > >But why? I liked it just fine the way it was. Jean is probably the most >interventionist of archangels. It's his JOB to dole out knowledge, and you >can't do that without intervening. It's also pretty clear that he doesn't >really care if his angels make a lot of disturbance as they go about their >duties. Yeah, there are some inconsistencies in there... it's a matter of which aspects you choose to ignore, I suppose. Certainly his dissonance condition is decidedly non-interventionist. And disturbance isn't intervention in human affairs, per se, though it does mark a warping of the natural progression of the Symphony. >Different views then. In mine he would stomp the invention first (if it was >judged to be dangerous) and then do the investigation. That is the most >efficient way -- if it WAS evil, then you've stopped Hell from advancing >their cause. If the discovery was good then some other mortal will find it >on their own, or your angels can help. I simply can't see an Elohite doing this without being perilously close to dissonance. (Which does seem to be consistent with how Derek portrayed most of the Archangels, originally, and with INS/MV. But that doesn't seem to be the mainstream of IN.) >There I agree. But he is an Elohite, and if the only way to get a mortal to >stop investigating in bad ways is to kill them, then that is what he orders. I think that's inconsistent with the statement that he's willing to accept what humans come up with on their own, without demonic influence, even if he doesn't like it. >>I think there are other ways to do this, without making him Yet Another >>Totally-Crazy Archangel. > >I don't think he is crazy at all. Just quite single-minded about carrying >out his duties the way HE thinks they should be done. He considers himself >to be sufficiently intelligent that he can make those judgments (and maybe >he is right). I agree about his assessment of his intelligence, but I don't think it's at all normal for an Elohite to rush to judgment without collecting enough information to determine the optimal path of the Symphony. >Archangels most into non-interference, IMO, are Blandine (celestials should >remember that they are not native to the corporeal realm), & David (let them >cope on their own). I'd agree with Blandine, except that her servitors mess with human dreams on a regular basis. She *is* a Cherub, and I tend to view them as more likely to intervene (because of their protective natures) than other Choirs. >In our campaign, his "non-interference" stance >>put him in the somewhat uncomfortable position of agreeing with Lilith's >>"hands off humans" viewpoint > >Since when did Lilith have a "hands off humans" viewpoint? :) That's part of the "in our campaign" bit. Though it's logical -- being a guinea pig in a celestial tug-of-war between God and Lucifer wasn't likely to leave her with a fond feeling for celestial meddling.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:01:59 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN At 15:08 -0400 10/25/99, Tim Groth wrote: >Also Mercurians appear human in their celestial forms, and Elohim are >humanoid. And unless the first Cherubs were created after corporeal >reality with animals they also look like things that came later. Angels >must have been rather surprised when they saw corporeal life resembling >their celestial forms. One could argue that their forms merely reflect certain major themes within the Symphony, themes which resulted in the evolution of corporeal beings with similar shapes. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:11:12 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Wade Trupke > > Wade (is there an opening for Angel of Verbosity?) No, because that would require giving a single angel more than one Word. *g* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 09:21:16 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> bright lilim question Whoops, sorry your right, I had confused a number of ideas from the books, my mistake. Azrael - ---------- > > > --- Azrael wrote: > > I am not so sure that Bright Lilim are even angels. > > After all The Book says that Lilim are not demons, > > thus there analouges could not be angels. > > Like a Lilim who are not quite demons, Bright Lilim > > are not quite angels. > > Although there appearence changes slightly. They do > > not change. > > Lilim Bright or otherwise are still Lilim. > > IMHO it is not possible for a Bright Lilim to fall > > as she has nowhere to fall from. > > > Where does it say the Lilim aren't demons. > Take it from me, ALL Lilim are either demons > or Brights. What the book DOES say, however, > is that LILITH is not a demon. She's definitely > a human, but all of her creations are demons > unless they redeem later. (And, just in case > someone is wondering, Lilith CANNOT create > Bright Lilim, just demonic ones. If she > were to Redeem, however....) > > ===== > +++Author, cook, computer genius, modest as heck > +++ John Karakash > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:07:30 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 17:32 -0400 10/25/99, Liam wrote: >From: Wade Trupke > >> >> Demonic response would be rather simple: Corrupt >> 'em and use 'em! And hey, souls you can corrupt >> just by editing a few lines of code... > >this is why i wouldn't have AIs being truly sentient IMC. anything that >could have it's destiny or fate altered by typing into a keyboard can't >really have a soul, IMHO. the whole point of humanity is their free will There's a good question as to whether changing a few lines of code in something as complex as an AI would change its "free will", any more than randomly slicing a few bits of a human brain would. In both cases, I suspect the outcome would most likely be to kill the entity in question, rather than change it in any predictably-useful way. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 09:30:56 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> RE> More on Mercs. > Yes, MOST blows are pulled. There are still accidents, mistakes, and some > blows which while pulled would still hurt - again see Steve Austin who had his > neck damaged, Bret Hart who landed wrong, and broke several bones, and others. > > >Your example of pulling punches does not make the wrestling match any less > fake, in >fact the fact that every thing is "carefully choreographed" does not > make anything >less fake, merely carefully choreographed and fake. In any > case if you have ever >been punched, punched somebody or seen a real fight you > would realise that those >punches and strikes wouldn't hurt (much) even if > there was force behind it. > > I was using that as an example of Mercurians - a pulled punch is still a > punch, and therefore violent, making wrestling a no-zone for mercs. It's that > (much) which is important. > Violence = no Mercurians. > > Kris, who managed to sort of bring that back on topic. > Ahah, then this is where our ideas truly come into conflict, IMO punches are pulled to such an extent that they are not violent, just a bunch of arm waving. I would allow a Merc. to throw a punch that was pulled as much as I believe they pull them in Pro Wrestling. When you hit like they do in P.W. you do no harm, you just look like a git. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 09:44:00 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? > IMC, Jordi is concerned with the welfare of the animals of the world. > Period. However, far from hating humanity, he feels that humanity is > totally misguided as a whole, with no concern for the environment around > them. Selfishness, ego, and pride - the vices of Hell - are primarily > responsible for this problem in humans. Humans who can rise above this, > and realize that the animals of the world are their equals... their > brothers... deserving of respect and fair treatment... are a precious and > rare find. Jordi views these humans as gifted treasures that have overcome > the Hell-inspired selfishness common to society; they've risen above the > others by realizing that they are not alone on the earth. I just thought that everyone may be interested to know that they belief system expressed in this bit here, are the same as those of Satanism. In Satanism (I'm talking actual Satanism, not the garbage they try to pass as Satanism in the movies (which are in fact Black Satanic Cults)) it is said that all humans and animals are equal each animal being as rare and unique, wonderful as any human. It also say to always do what is best for you, of course depending upon which level you take this this could lead either to Destiny or through Selfishness to Fate. After all it will be much better in the long run to meet your Destiny, than if you are overly selfish in life and meet your Fate and ROT IN HELL FOR THE REST OF ETERNITY (followed by maniacal laughter). Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:48:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 9:50 PM -0400 10/24/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >It's been established in Canon, particularly in the APG/IPG and Fall > >of the Malakim, that Jordi created the creatures of myth that > >populated the Earth. > > Created SOME OF. Can you elaborate on this? Uriel is back in my campaign, and a better understanding of which ethereals were created by Jordi and which were created by humans would help me flesh out Divine politics a little better. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 09:50:46 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> I Have Some Questions How many of my questions actually got through? There were about four. When it bounced back tome there was only this one. Anyone mind if I try to repost? Azrael - ---------- > At 7:58 PM -0700 10/24/99, Azrael wrote: > >1) When is it actually a Malakite's choice (in reference to oaths)? > > A somewhat tricky GM decision, depending on the Malakite in question. > For instance, in a strongly hierarchical organization (such as Judgment > or the Sword), a Seraph's (or commanding officer's) orders may well > trigger the "not my choice" clause. In something looser, such as the > Wind, it's less likely to be an escape clause in that way. > > If one's Superior forbids it, you're definitely in the clear. (If _any_ > Archangel forbids it, you may be in the clear at least while the AA is > around. Allied AAs are probably able to give such orders.) > > If you literally cannot manage to physically take out the evil -- > such as you are bound by chains forged by a Prince's Will -- then you're > in the clear. You should try to take advantage of any openings you get, > but hey, if you _can't_ take out the evil... > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:55:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Sons of Adam, Daughters of Eve (was Re: IN> AI in IN) On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Walter Milliken wrote: > (This raises the interesting question about whether there are *any* > extant human descendents of any of the Eden trio.... The Bible > certainly says Adam and Eve's descendants lived on, but canon "reality" > often diverges from the Bible.) Well, I don't see why there *wouldn't* be descendents of Adam and Eve (or of Adam and Eve Version 1, or of Adam and Lilith) roaming around, as a purely logical thing. Their bloodline (hmmm... sounds depressingly WoDish, doesn't it) would be rather thin from breeding with evolved Homo Sapiens, but they'd be there. Perhaps these descendents represent the majority of the Soldier population of Earth, rather than the Children of the Grigori? Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 09:56:36 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Discord Palladium's Nightbane/Nightspawn has some absolutely nifty Randam Discord available. Be it Corporeal->Stigmata (In NB/NS not IN). Or Ethereal/Celestial-> The various psychosis and addiction etc... Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 09:59:59 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Azrael (Not Me) I would love to hear anyone's ideas for Azrael the Archangel of Death. If it's already been done, please send them to me off list at chiram@tpgi.com.au If it hasn't yet been done, then I'd love to discuss what he'd be like (not the Mechanics, just what choir, combat orientated, his general purpose, who would he get along/clash with etc..) Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:06:55 +0100 From: Pak Chan Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 23:13 24/10/1999 -0700, you wrote: > >>From: Whistling in the Dark >>They are life. > >OK, back that up! (I used to work in a lab next door to the AI/neural net >lab. I always felt it was questionable as to whether the AI /researchers/ >counted as 'life' :) ) Cool! I never knew that some of my friends were zombies, though it does explain the smell ... > >Let's see. They don't sleep or dream (there is no reason to assume AIs would >have dreamscapes -- ethereals don't). They don't die. They are created, not >born. > >And more to the point, what happens if people clone an AI by just copying >and running the code? Have you suddenly (and very easily) gone on to create >new souls? If you destroy the computer that one was running on, have you >'killed' it? Or can you just activate its backup? > >Too many things that make more sense, and are MUCH more easily explained in >IN by just assuming that they are soul-less man-made ethereals. If they can >ever truly exist without demonic intervention in the INverse. > OTOH, if you assume that an AI cannot be "killed" until it has been completely wiped out (including all backups), then that would resolve a lot of objections. Very few AI's would actually make it as far as heaven or hell (no AI researcher would actually let an experiment run for long without backing it up regularly, if only to see if anything interesting has happened in the meantime). You would have to be a pretty determined (or lucky) celestial to destroy all backups, especially if researchers start to wind of the rumour that _someone_ out there is determined to destroy all AI research... There will be times when the AI isn't actually running (AI program stopped, the computer it was running on has been switched off, the AI is a victim of celestial intervention, etc.). I would suggest that during these times, it would be in a coma (and hence in the Marches?). As a (vaguely) interesting adventure seed, you could have Vapula assisting a research lab to create an AI, and Jean trying to stop it. Jean's servitors would have to search the Marches every time they think they've destroyed all copies of the AI, just to see if they've missed a copy. Regarding hacking an AI to push it towards its fate, it would be extremely difficult to do this. Most of the more promising AI projects use simulations of brains, and changing the code in an AI would be the equivalent of radically changing the structure of the brain. You could do this in order to change someone's character, but the results would be extremely unpredictable, and the most likely effect would be severe brain damage. > >jo > Pak. - ----- /= R o l e p l a y e r s o f t h e w o r l d . . . C o n q u e r ! =\ == Will roleplay for nothing. == \= Will GM for saki and promises of sushi. =/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:21:16 -0400 From: Ehrbar Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN Wade Trupke wrote: > Angelic response would be much more varied. The > status of AI souls would be debated. Even in the > face of evidence, the idea that humans can > produce beings with souls would be > nigh-blasphemous. Lilith is Canon-established to be human (still), and Lilith is Canon- established to be the creator of Lilim. Therefore, humans can create things with souls. Now, that might still be blasphemous to a Dominican, but I imagine AI souls should have an easier time of gaining acceptance than Bright Lilim under those circumstances. And we know there are Bright Lilim - -- Laurence even wants a monopoly on them! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 11:51:20 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Adventure Seed I don't wish to offend any Catholics with my seed, but anyway here goes. The Pope has gone ...well...lets just say a bit funny. Some of his latest declarations are a bit off the wall (these are real, he has actually saod these things, NO BS!!), i.e. sex causes cancer, no such place as heaven or hell, they are only states of mind, no life after death, most of the bible being metaphorical etc... Anyhoo, Dominic and Laurence are would not be to pleased. No doubt Andre wouldn't to impressed either. Lucifer however may be impressed. I'll leave the rest up to you. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 11:54:53 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Is God Still Watching?(was AI in IN I think) Sorry but I can't remember who said this but it was to the effect that Angels are now obselete, God was ingnoring them or forgot about them. Due to Divine Intervention I'd have to disagree. After all how could the Holy Traid intervene if one of the three who are one and the same were not facting? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:10:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1376 From: Whistling in the Dark > At 4:59 PM -0400 10/25/99, Douglas Muir wrote: > >This didn't generate much response, which is a shame, but FWIW I think it's > >a nifty idea with a good writeup. If Beth is still putting stuff on the IN > >web page, I'd recommend this. > > > > It didn't generate much response because it *rocked.* I mean, *wow.* > > So what can we say? Well, we can hash out which Archangel has the most comedic potential for a band of Kobalites to start a write-in campaign for. To me, it's a toss up between Dominic and Laurence. Dominic because he's Asmodeus's angelic counterpart and Laurence because he's the head of everyone out to get demons. I could see "He'll clean things up" and "Vote For A Real Difference" as rallying slogans. Though I doubt either would accept the office if they won. Now if Jean won the election, he'd have to consider all the possibilities and compare options objectively, so maybe... Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:46:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "merchant@mailcity.com" Subject: IN> Increase Your Sales Immediately! 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TO REMOVE CLICK ON mailto:remove1@stones.com?subject=remove ********************** 14847 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:06:32 -0600 From: "ParadoxDruid" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN What is humanity (all by itself, so Jean couldn't do anything) created a device that could alter human memories and beliefs by "typing into a keyboard"... do humans all suddenly lose their souls? > >this is why i wouldn't have AIs being truly sentient IMC. anything that >could have it's destiny or fate altered by typing into a keyboard can't >really have a soul, IMHO. the whole point of humanity is their free will > > >liam > > Just wondering... Andrew J Bonham ParadoxPhilosopher@worldnet.att.net The Druid's Circle: http://home.att.net/~paradoxphilosopher/ "Imagination is more powerful than knowledge" -Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 13:18:51 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> 2 Minute Eggs I know the concept of this post is not very original but I looooooove lists like this (PLEASE, MORE LISTS, MORE LISTS!!!!!). How Choir/Bands React to a Two-Minute Egg or Its Preparation. Seraphim: 2-Minute Egg? Lies, all Lies!!! It is a 2 minute 32 second 17 Split seconds prescisely egg. Cherubim: ??? Ofanim: 2 minutes!! 2 Minutes!!! I don't have 2 minutes. So many places to, things to see, etc... I'm sure there's a faster way....Ahah turn the stove up, use a magnifying glass to focus sunlight and turn the thermostat right up. I've done it!!! It's only a 1 1/2 minute egg now!!! But it still could be faster...etc.. And eating it that's hardly very efficient, there's gottat be a faster way to absorb the nutrients from the egg... Ad Infinitum Malakim: Not only do Malakim find no redeeming qualities in carbonated beverages, they also find no redeeming qualities in the act of either act of consuming or preparing eggs. Elohim: It makes no difference how the egg is prepared there will be no change in the benifits of consuming the egg. It would be more efficient to swallow the egg whole, however as the average throat size would no acomatadte an egg-sized object while leaving its owner alive, it is reccomended that the egg is masticated before swallowing. Kyriotates: Hmmm...how many eggs can I cook at once? Mercurians: Mercurians don't cook 2 minute eggs, Over easy is sooo much cooler, 2 minute eggs are soo last century. Balseraphim: I am the best at cooking 2 minute eggs ever? (hmm...any suggestions) Djinn: What's that you want me to cook you a 2 minute egg? OK then I'll just turn the gas on.....OOPS silly me I just lit a matc-BOOOOM! Calabim: Stuff the egg, I don't care about the egg. Hey look I can take this off the stove, WOW! I wonder what this is, I never knew this came out. Hallabah: Eggs are weak, their shells crack with no pressure at all, hell they can't even defend themselves. These eggs aren't worth my time. {Tosses eggs over shoulder, and goes off to find someone weak to "HELP") Lilim: Sure I'd loove to cook you a 2 minute egg, but first, you gotta do a leetle tiny thing for l'il old me. Shedim: Heheh heh, why bother cookin' some stupid egg. Hell I could get this idiot to combine the gel with gasoline (which makes a napalm-like substance) and throw over some little punk pre-schooler and set 'em alight. Heheheh that'd be cool. Impudites: ??? Please don't hate me. I had to do it. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:21:00 -0500 (CDT) From: paranial@creighton.edu Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 10:30 PM +0100 10/25/99, Liam wrote: > >From: The Alien > > > >> > >> It is, of course, a perfect world for MalDom. > >> > > > >maldom? que? > > Dominic was originally a Cherub. And then a Malakite. Or maybe > vice versa. (I've seen drafts which have both Choirs, and am not > quite sure which was which.) > > Since Balseraph Dominic is BalDom, Malakite Dominic is MalDom. > > (And then there are Balakim of Fate, but we won't talk about those...) > > Balakim? Bradley Paranial Mercurian Vassal of War ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 13:24:38 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Relationships in IN > Angel's don't "consider" themselves anything. The gender of vessels has > no more import for any of them than a particular set of clothes does for > humans. > > -- Chris > I dare you to call David a girl. How could you even Imagine Novalis as anything other than female it just wouldn't be *CUTE*. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:46:34 -0500 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Balakim (WAS: RE (Nicole Fluff)) At 10:21 PM -0500 10/25/99, paranial@creighton.edu wrote: > Balakim? What you call Balseraphs of Fate that take on the Malakite resonance. However, they also get the associated Dissonance conditions as well (this includes having to swear at least four oaths; however the first two can be reworded slghtly, since they specifically name Lucifer and/or Evil). When I describe what they look like celestially, their normally leather wings take on the appearance of black feathers (or as I've coined, Black Fleathery Wings). Their obsidian scales have a slight purplish sheen to them when viewed in the light. Otherwise they look like your standard Balseraph. This description probably is no where _near_ canon, but it sure looks cool! "Balakite?!? But I'm a Bals. . . Er Malakite of Fate, dammit!" Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 10:06:04 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Vapula's Gadgets Could Jean and his merry bunch alter the Way Cool Shades that Impudites are provided with? So that they work for Angels. Or would it be way to hard, like trying to dissect a ball of lava with a scalpal made of Ice? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 00:18:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Azrael wrote: > > IMC, Jordi is concerned with the welfare of the animals of the world. > > Period. However, far from hating humanity, he feels that humanity is > > totally misguided as a whole, with no concern for the environment around > > them. Selfishness, ego, and pride - the vices of Hell - are primarily > > responsible for this problem in humans. Humans who can rise above this, > > and realize that the animals of the world are their equals... their > > brothers... deserving of respect and fair treatment... are a precious and > > rare find. Jordi views these humans as gifted treasures that have overcome > > the Hell-inspired selfishness common to society; they've risen above the > > others by realizing that they are not alone on the earth. > > > > I just thought that everyone may be interested to know that they belief system expressed in this bit here, are the same as those of Satanism. In Satanism (I'm talking actual Satanism, not the garbage they try to pass as Satanism in the movies (which are in fact Black Satanic Cults)) it is said that all humans and animals are equal each animal being as rare and unique, wonderful as any human. It also say to always do what is best for you, of course depending upon which level you take this this could lead either to Destiny or through Selfishness to Fate. > Hey, someone else knows their Satanism... I'm amazed. I ended up deleting a paragraph from my post there for one sole reason: I'm used to any mention of 'Satanism' starting up a big flamewar from people who are ignorant of what it is. (For the record, I'm not a Satanist, though several of my friends are, and it's one of the few religions I can truly respect.) What I originally was going to say is that, IMC, certain Servitors of Jordi are promoting Anton-LaVey-style Satanism, focusing on its beliefs that human are animals (LaVey even delves into lycanthropic rituals in one of his books), that natural laws prevail and civilization is a sham, and that it's really an every-man-for-himself world out there. They are doing this SECRETLY, however, because Satanism is NOT exactly the kind of religion Heaven wants promoted! For good reason - it's against God (Satanists are basically either atheists or gnostics, depending on the person... and NO, they don't believe in Lucifer, Satan, or The Devil as an actual being), and promotes selfishness. These Angels, however, are trying to 'rework' Satanism to include a belief in the Christian cosmology, if nothing else... possibly even to reform it into something that promotes Heaven's values as well as Jordi's values. LaVey was 'removed' for this to happen. Unfortunately, these Servitors aren't just barking up the wrong tree, they're in a different forest. This 'reform' is VERY unlikely to happen, the Angels have accumulated some Dissonance (and even some Discord) along the way, and they'd better pray Jordi discovers what's going on before someone else does... say, Dominic or Laurence..... Just another thread in the game... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "People love to be told what to do. They love not doing what they've been told even more. They love it the most when they are made to do it anyway." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:11:23 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/25/99 10:02:30 PM, esp.horsepie@btinternet.com writes: > > >maldom? que? > > He means BalDom (Balseraphic Dominic...), an old contraction for an even > older idea. Actually, I mean MalDom. A contraction from an old idea, though I believe the contraction was made up much later...after BalDom. MalDom: Malakite Dominic. In the original playtest files I read oh-so-long ago, it said of Dominic: "Dominic is a Malakim." ... "The Archangel of Judgement has a rehabilitation center on Earth, in southern Italy, where straying angels are taken to be reminded of their duties. He's been running it for more than two centuries, but no one has actually come out . . . Michael has asked to visit it several times, but Dominic has always had a rock-solid excuse. If the Archangel of Judgement can't explain what's going on soon, Michael may ask some of his favored servants to drop by just to see what's going on." If you consider a Dominic who became a Malakite and can no longer sense the Truth, it's a fairly scary idea. Perfect for a more depressing world. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 14:53:59 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? > Hey, someone else knows their Satanism... I'm amazed. I ended up deleting > a paragraph from my post there for one sole reason: I'm used to any > mention of 'Satanism' starting up a big flamewar from people who are > ignorant of what it is. (For the record, I'm not a Satanist, though > several of my friends are, and it's one of the few religions I can truly > respect.) 'Course I know what Satanism is. The Perverse is one of my main intrests. At school I'm known as that tall guy with the pentagrams. I wear pentagrams because of their asociation with the devil, I find that their shock value is priceless. And I also am not a Satanist (I do however applaud their stance on animals) nor do I believe in any religion. Shock is what I thrive on, I love to suprise people who judge me upon my appearence by turning out to be quite intelligent (always comes as quite a suprise to Scripture Teachers who use me as an example of someone who will repent or BURN!!!!). I must get to the point. In Nomine was almost banned at school!!!! Because of the Satanic connotations and suchlike. How 'bout that. By the way that was a cool plot thingee. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:37:44 -0700 From: "Robb" Subject: IN> A.I. & Souls I have found all of the debate over Artificial Intelligence and the possibility of souls very interesting. From the amount of time spent on the subject, I think everyone has an intrest in it. I like the discussion, but that plot won't come up in my game. Mostly because my players wouldn't be interested in it. I personally think that AIs, no matter how advanced, could ever have souls. Before I state my ideas on the subject, you need to know that my game is fashioned after the 'Prophecy' movies to a degree. There are three sides to the war: the angels who work for god, the angels who work against humans (and the other angels), and the demon (who work for themselves and against almost everything). God doesn't meddle to often, but satan does. The idea that only humans have souls in central to my game. Utimately, humans will determine the coruse of the Symphony. Most of my plots are set up using real world events. I'll drop some plot seed I have used in another email if anyone shows interest. A lot of my ideas stray from IN canon in order to keep with the movie theme or with real world religion. As far as souls are concerned, the movies and religion agree. Only Humans Have Souls! Not angels, not animals, not ethereals, not AA, not DP! Nope. According to christianity, humans are higher in the eyes of god because they are the only thing with souls. The definition of humans is anything with a soul. Only god creates souls. No one else. IN has set it up as if almost everyone and everything has a soul: Agels, Demons, Animals, etc. This works within the rules of the game. If not everything else, why not AI? I personally like the idea within the game, but its better used in a sci-fi game in my oppinion (something like the movie 'The Matrix', 'Dune', or '2001'). If I were a player and not a game master, I would enjoy playing the senario, with a game master with any of the oppinions expressed. Have any of you thought about make a senario with the answer to this problem being discovered (and answered) by the players? It might make for some great games as the players represented what they thought the answer was, and how it should me handled. Let them express thier ideas through the game. Just a thought, but if anyone does, I would love to hear about it. What about the idea of a Shedim posing as an AI just to get the AA at each others throats over the debate in heaven? From what I have read, most of you seem to think this would cause some problems between the AAs. What demon or DP wouldn't like to cause a little anarchy in heaven? Usel, the Demon of Lost Faith (in his first appearance) (bit of trivia: someone mentioned 'HAL 9000' a bit ago. Did you notice that if you roll each letter up one you get 'IBM'. ;) By the way, Election Day is the best seed I have seen on this list yet. Give us another one! I especially like the format you used to present it. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1377 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.