From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Oct 26 13:15:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07754 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:15:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA31083 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:10:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:10:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199910261810.NAA31083@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1378 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, October 26 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1378 In this digest: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> Re: AI in IN Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> AI in IN IN> emccoy@nh.ultranet.com. . IN> Age of the Universe IN> Re:emccoy@nh.ultranet.com Re: IN> emccoy@nh.ultranet.com. . Re: IN> Free Personality Tests IN> Bright Lilim Question IN> Jean and Progress Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> Re: AI in IN Re: IN> Bright Lilim Question Re: IN> Vapula's Gadgets RE: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? Re: IN> Age of the Universe IN> Humanity and Choirs Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Re: AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Bright Lilim Question Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Bright Lilim Question Re: IN> Age of the Universe Re: IN> Re: AI in IN IN> Critters of Myth (Re: AI in IN) Re: IN> I Have Some Questions Re: IN> Vapula's Gadgets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:45:06 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? >From: Walter Milliken >>So it's possible, though a good Animals servitor will be a very different >viewpoint than most angelic characters would be, and therefore probably >harder to play It's easier for a Kyrio (they make use of animal hosts a lot anyway), but it's quite difficult to justify why any other servitor would have a human vessel, or would use it much even if they did. That makes it a lot more difficult to integrate into a group. A malakite with a wolfish-dog vessel probably wouldn't be so bad -- but a seraph with some deep sea fish? jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:59:18 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN >From: Walter Milliken > >At 14:49 -0400 10/25/99, Jo Hart wrote: > >Jean is probably the most > >interventionist of archangels. It's his JOB to dole out knowledge, and >you > >can't do that without intervening. It's also pretty clear that he doesn't > >really care if his angels make a lot of disturbance as they go about >their > >duties. > >Yeah, there are some inconsistencies in there... it's a matter of which >aspects you choose to ignore, I suppose. Certainly his dissonance >condition >is decidedly non-interventionist. I'd seen it as more jealously protectionist myself. His angels can interfere as much as they want -- as long as no divine tech gets out without his consent. That's his absolute most important guiding rule. Whatever it takes to stop unauthorised tech getting out, that they can do. > > >Different views then. In mine he would stomp the invention first (if it >was > >judged to be dangerous) and then do the investigation. That is the most > >efficient way -- if it WAS evil, then you've stopped Hell from advancing > >their cause. If the discovery was good then some other mortal will find >it > >on their own, or your angels can help. > >I simply can't see an Elohite doing this without being perilously close >to dissonance. I don't see that. Any Elohite is dissonant if it lets emotions come between itself and the most efficient resolution of its goals. In this case, Jean MUST stop humanity acquiring unauthorised tech. I think that if he wasn't sure but thought there was a good chance that demons had been granting ideas to mankind, it would be more dissonant to wait for a long invstigation before acting. His Word is Lightning! When he acts, he doesn't hang around - -- sure, he'll do as much investigation as he considers to be reasonable, but if it comes to the crunch, *zap* first, because that way you can be SURE the tech won't get out. Anything else is taking risks. Which may be unnecessary risks. > > >There I agree. But he is an Elohite, and if the only way to get a mortal >to > >stop investigating in bad ways is to kill them, then that is what he >orders. > >I think that's inconsistent with the statement that he's willing to accept >what humans come up with on their own, without demonic influence, even if >he doesn't like it. That was your statement, which I disagreed with in the first place :) I still think there are some developments which he would simply consider that humanity was not yet ready for (if ever) -- and he would consider it part of his responsibility to quash those by any means necessary. > >I agree about his assessment of his intelligence, but I don't think it's >at all normal for an Elohite to rush to judgment without collecting enough >information to determine the optimal path of the Symphony. It is if time is of the essence, and you know that over-reacting in one way is MUCH less risky than over-reacting in the other (being too lenient). You do the Maths! Elohim are less likely to take the long odds than other angels. And think about how hard it really is to keep a line of research covered up, if you don't act FAST (ie. when only one person knows about it and hasn't put it on the web yet). Jean's genius is that where other archangels are fretting around and cavilling, he's prepared to lay down the smack. Even to an extent that scares allies. They know that if they ask Jean to act on a problem, something will be done, probably quickly (if it needed to be done quickly) and it may be irrevocable, because he is willing to make those snap judgments when he thinks it is necessary. And he doesn't fret too much about whether they were avoidable afterwards (fretting over past decisions may lead to dissonance). jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:08:38 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? > >It's easier for a Kyrio (they make use of animal hosts a lot anyway), but >it's quite difficult to justify why any other servitor would have a human >vessel, or would use it much even if they did. That makes it a lot more >difficult to integrate into a group. A malakite with a wolfish-dog vessel >probably wouldn't be so bad -- but a seraph with some deep sea fish? > > I can see it now. PUNK KID:so I didn't take the car I swear [fish in jar starts glowing real brightly} CHERUB: the fish says your lying bob Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:00:59 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN ParadoxDruid wrote: > What is humanity (all by itself, so Jean couldn't do anything) created a > device that could alter human memories and beliefs by "typing into a > keyboard"... do humans all suddenly lose their souls? > > > > >this is why i wouldn't have AIs being truly sentient IMC. anything that > >could have it's destiny or fate altered by typing into a keyboard can't > >really have a soul, IMHO. the whole point of humanity is their free will Ever hear of brainwashing? It can accomplish some amazing things. Drugs, deprivation, torture, conditioning. Talk about alterig someone's Destiny...No different than messing with an AI (and I doubt something that -complex- could be so easily altered, try getting a nice neural net to alter its 'behavior'), just a different method. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 18:26:17 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> emccoy@nh.ultranet.com. . A while ago you posted this. I finally found where I had hidden it. Yes I am interested, and am now asking you. I am also interested; on the subject of In Nomine do you truly love the game, its system, Archangeling the list and the Collection or has it become a task or just a job to you? Thanx Azrael - ---------- > At 8:40 PM -0500 9/22/99, Trent wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Jace +ADw-mmc+AEA-cybcon.com+AD4- > >To: +ADw-in+AF8-nomine-l+AEA-lists.io.com+AD4- > >Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 8:24 PM > >Subject: Re: IN+AD4- Questions galore . . . > >+AD4- > >+AD4- I hate to interject reality into this but some religions theorize that > >each > >+AD4- solar system has it's own god. Their are a lot of other interesting > >idea's > >+AD4- from real religions, that could be transposed easily into IN. > > > >Which ones specificaly? Not any of the christian or jewish or islamic > >relegions. Mabe some +ACI-new age+ACI- religions but not any i've heard of. > Though > >i could belive the scientologists saying somthing like that. > > They don't. (If you're really curious, ask me off-list.) > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 18:42:24 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Age of the Universe In IN is the world/universe but 40,000 years old as it is said to be by Christians? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 99 18:47:03 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Re:emccoy@nh.ultranet.com Oops sorry, everyone I cocked up BIG TIME. I just clicked reply and then put the address in the subject box. One thousand Apologies to you all. A very embaressed Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 02:08:31 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> emccoy@nh.ultranet.com. . The real question in my mind (by the way, Az, she wanted to be asked OFF the list.) is whether there is a Demon of Free Personality Tests. And who said demon would work for. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 02:37:59 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Free Personality Tests >From: The Alien >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >The real question in my mind (...)is whether there is a Demon of Free >Personality Tests. And who >said demon would work for. It's tempting to say Fate, but the possibilities in Dark Humour are so much more appealing. (Ditto for Scientologists) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:50:05 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Bright Lilim Question >>>However, you aren't a Demon Princess. She is a human Demon Princess and has the potential to be a human Archangel. Weird, but true.<<< Only if someone in Heaven can figure out how to duplicate Lucifer's trick, though. Remember that no one but Lucifer (and maybe Lilith) knows how he made a human a Demon Princess. If she was to redeem, she might be destroyed, she might become an Archangel, or she might become a normal, non-Demon Princess human again. I'd vote for the latter. (Interesting side question: would a Demon Prince need an Archangel to redeem him? Or a whole bunch of Archangels...?) Regarding Lilith creating a Lilim with Forces from an Archangel, whom the Archangel will then redeem on creation: only if the Lilim really *wants* to redeem. Being made partly of Archangel Forces *might* give it enough selflessness to overcome the selfish Lilith-part, but I'd guess that you'd wind up with quite a number of destroyed failures for every such redemption attempt that succeeds. Which means it would be *really* expensive for an Archangel to contract with Lilith to do this. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:58:43 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Jean and Progress >>>I agree about his assessment of his intelligence, but I don't think it's at all normal for an Elohite to rush to judgment without collecting enough information to determine the optimal path of the Symphony.<<< That I can't agree with. Yes, an Elohite would no doubt prefer to gather as much information as possible, but the above implies an Elohite can never act in haste, and in fact makes them rather dithering and inefficient. If Jean (with millenia of experience and an intellect that's beyond super-genius) deems something harmful, I think he'd act to remove it -- fast -- not delay while his Servitors conduct an investigation and then waste more time weighing the pros and cons. It's not dissonant for Elohim to make snap-judgments; they just have to make their judgments based on objective criteria. (And if they find out they were wrong afterwards...oops. Everyone makes mistakes.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:06:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Wade Trupke Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Wade Trupke wrote: > >> Angelic response would be much more varied. The >> status of AI souls would be debated. Even in the >> face of evidence, the idea that humans can >> produce beings with souls would be >> nigh-blasphemous. > >As I implied in an earlier post, just because >humans manufacture AIs, >it doesn't follow that humans create the souls of >AIs, any more than >humans breeding implies humans create the souls >of their children. Sorry, I mis-phrased that. It wasn't the fact that humans produced souled beings; they do that all the time. In fact, they were designed by God to do just that. It's part of the Divine Specifications, as it were. It's in the blueprints. It was the fact that there were souled beings that were not initially designed by God, but by humans, that I see angels (and, indeed, Earth-bound religious thinkers) having a hard time coping with. It's not just creating life; it's creating a brand new design for life. That's 'God Only' territory. Of course, that's all filtered through my views on the game and the world. Your milage may vary, no purchase necessary, details inside. Wade (I need either sleep or caffine) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:36:14 -0700 (PDT) From: David Barr Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN The shedite in the corner with the long dark hair has it right. Baring divine (or demonic) intervention, it is not that simple. Not in real life, anyway. But then again, Jeans angels are there precisely for the purpose of (among other things) protecting and sheparding humans engaged in complex studies until the have that flash of sudden inspiration, the lightning stroke (tm) of insight, granted by God, where they get to run naked through the street sceaming "Eureka!!" As opposed to Vapula, who finds stuff or steals it, and gives it away (is it plagarism if you find someone elses research notes on your computer, with no idea how they got there?) Vapula (and his minions) are pretty much a non creative bunch. But they are very good at getting technology into the hands of people who are not ready for it. Do they do this by stealing it from people who are ready for it? Who have made the discoveries through time, patience, and hard work? So, to bring this in line with the thread... In research labs across the world, computer scientists and coginitive psychologists are studying the nature of intelligence and all its components (one of these days, they might even come up with a reasonably acceptable definition and measuremnt for the term...). Angels of Jean stand guard over them. Not watching the researchers. per se, but watching the progress of the research itself, for signs of demonic interference. Did that insight come up as the result of an anonymous email? or a random peice of paper that she found on her desk, with notes scriblled on it in a handwriting she does not recognize? And is someone, somewhere, suddenly missing the key research nots that w]are the last step before the breakthrough...? (Vapula probably has a great trade going with despair and theft, yes?) - -Daiv > > What is humanity (all by itself, so Jean couldn't do anything) > created a > > device that could alter human memories and beliefs by "typing > into a > > keyboard"... do humans all suddenly lose their souls? > > > > > > > >this is why i wouldn't have AIs being truly sentient IMC. > anything that > > >could have it's destiny or fate altered by typing into a > keyboard can't > > >really have a soul, IMHO. the whole point of humanity is their > free will > > Ever hear of brainwashing? It can accomplish some amazing > things. Drugs, > deprivation, torture, conditioning. Talk about alterig someone's > Destiny...No > different than messing with an AI (and I doubt something that > -complex- could > be so easily altered, try getting a nice neural net to alter its > 'behavior'), > just a different method. > > - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com my mother once said that boy is stranger than a three toed barking frog - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:39:51 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? At 1:45 -0400 10/26/99, Jo Hart wrote: >It's easier for a Kyrio (they make use of animal hosts a lot anyway), but >it's quite difficult to justify why any other servitor would have a human >vessel, or would use it much even if they did. Since humans have such a large impact on the ecology, and thus the animal world, I can easily see Jordi encouraging it -- if only to have necessary influence over human actions that impact his Word. There is an issue around the dissonance condition, concerning exactly how "wild" an Animals servitor behaves in human society. This actually came up a bit in the GURPS IN editing process -- it is not the intention that they're incapable of fitting into human society... to a degree. And they should have less problem fitting in with other angels, who don't have human social programming, except as a learned behavior. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:55:01 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN At 1:59 -0400 10/26/99, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Walter Milliken >>Yeah, there are some inconsistencies in there... it's a matter of which >>aspects you choose to ignore, I suppose. Certainly his dissonance >>condition >>is decidedly non-interventionist. > >I'd seen it as more jealously protectionist myself. His angels can interfere >as much as they want -- as long as no divine tech gets out without his >consent. That's his absolute most important guiding rule. Whatever it takes >to stop unauthorised tech getting out, that they can do. That's probably more consistent with INS/MV. I don't think that's entirely appropriate to the SJGames version, though. >>I simply can't see an Elohite doing this without being perilously close >>to dissonance. > >I don't see that. Any Elohite is dissonant if it lets emotions come between >itself and the most efficient resolution of its goals. In this case, Jean >MUST stop humanity acquiring unauthorised tech. I think that if he wasn't >sure but thought there was a good chance that demons had been granting ideas >to mankind, it would be more dissonant to wait for a long invstigation >before acting. His Word is Lightning! When he acts, he doesn't hang around >-- sure, he'll do as much investigation as he considers to be reasonable, >but if it comes to the crunch, *zap* first, because that way you can be SURE >the tech won't get out. Anything else is taking risks. Which may be >unnecessary risks. I was mostly objecting to the notion of "shoot first, then investigate". Yes, he probably doesn't wait in instances where the tech might rapidly become a problem (say, nanotech, or some kinds of bioengineering). On the other hand, many cases can support an investigation before a final decision is made. Generally, a day or two spent investigating isn't going to make much difference. Now, if it took as long as the typical Congressional investigation, that would be different. But I don't think Jean would tolerate servitors who were that inefficient.... >>I think that's inconsistent with the statement that he's willing to accept >>what humans come up with on their own, without demonic influence, even if >>he doesn't like it. > >That was your statement, which I disagreed with in the first place :) I >still think there are some developments which he would simply consider that >humanity was not yet ready for (if ever) -- and he would consider it part of >his responsibility to quash those by any means necessary. Since I only have the GURPS IN text with me, I can't check the exact original wording. But I certainly read it that way. (Unfortunately, there's a lot of minor ambiguities in the original IN book.) >It is if time is of the essence, and you know that over-reacting in one way >is MUCH less risky than over-reacting in the other (being too lenient). You >do the Maths! Elohim are less likely to take the long odds than other >angels. And think about how hard it really is to keep a line of research >covered up, if you don't act FAST (ie. when only one person knows about it >and hasn't put it on the web yet). Yes, but in many cases, where the discoverer isn't already under observation (in which case the question of demonic influence should already be resolved), the first the Lightning servitors hear of it may *be* in some form of publication. Or at least in hallway conversations at a conference. I agree that an Elohite will make a quick decision when the dangers from delay outweigh the risks from misunderstanding the situation. But *only* then. For an Elohite to make a quick decision that *might oppose God's intent* seems to me to be skirting dissonance. Sure, there are circumstances where it's appropriate. But it's not something they should be doing routinely, which seems to be your reading of Jean. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:53:16 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Question At 11:50 PM -0500 10/25/99, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>However, you aren't a Demon Princess. She >is a human Demon Princess and has the potential >to be a human Archangel. Weird, but true.<<< > >Only if someone in Heaven can figure out how to duplicate Lucifer's >trick, though. Remember that no one but Lucifer (and maybe Lilith) knows >how he made a human a Demon Princess. If she was to redeem, she might be >destroyed, she might become an Archangel, or she might become a normal, >non-Demon Princess human again. I'd vote for the latter. Depends on the redemption. I'd say that if anyone but Yves redeemed her, you'd be right. But Yves would smile enigmatically when asked how he made Lilith the Archangel of Liberation and not answer. Dominic would immediately launch an investigation of Michael, because hey -- go with what you know in new situations. >(Interesting side question: would a Demon Prince need an Archangel to >redeem him? Or a whole bunch of Archangels...?) I'd say one -- Redemption comes from within more than without. The Archangel is the catalyst for the actual change, but no matter how many Forces the Demon Prince had, even a minor Archangel could initiate and watch over it. It might take *months,* however. >Regarding Lilith creating a Lilim with Forces from an Archangel, whom >the Archangel will then redeem on creation: only if the Lilim really >*wants* to redeem. Being made partly of Archangel Forces *might* give it >enough selflessness to overcome the selfish Lilith-part, but I'd guess >that you'd wind up with quite a number of destroyed failures for every >such redemption attempt that succeeds. Which means it would be *really* >expensive for an Archangel to contract with Lilith to do this. I'd think eight positive Corporeal, Ethereal and Celestial forces, all from an Archangel, would make an instant redemption candidate even when tied with one Lilith-tainted Ethereal Force. Especially since the first thing that the new Lilim would sense was the redemption all around them, the sound of the Symphony in their head. They literally wouldn't have time to relish their selfish lifestyle. I'd say one out of four might be destroyed, but that's it. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:01:27 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Vapula's Gadgets At 13:06 -0400 10/26/99, Azrael wrote: >Could Jean and his merry bunch alter the Way Cool Shades that Impudites are provided with? >So that they work for Angels. I don't think there's any reason why they wouldn't just work. (In fact, GURPS IN clarifies it exactly this way.) That may be one reason why Vapulans have to keep track of their toys -- lest they be used against them. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:04:07 +0100 From: Meehan Anthony Subject: RE: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? >-----Original Message----- >From: Walter Milliken [mailto:milliken@io.com] >Sent: 26 October 1999 16:40 >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Ain't Jordi dumb? > > >At 1:45 -0400 10/26/99, Jo Hart wrote: >>It's easier for a Kyrio (they make use of animal hosts a lot >anyway), but >>it's quite difficult to justify why any other servitor would >have a human >>vessel, or would use it much even if they did. > >Since humans have such a large impact on the ecology, and thus >the animal >world, I can easily see Jordi encouraging it -- if only to >have necessary >influence over human actions that impact his Word. > >There is an issue around the dissonance condition, concerning exactly >how "wild" an Animals servitor behaves in human society. This actually >came up a bit in the GURPS IN editing process -- it is not the >intention >that they're incapable of fitting into human society... to a >degree. And >they should have less problem fitting in with other angels, who don't >have human social programming, except as a learned behavior. > In my Campaign I had a player who's character was an Ofanim of Animals. He had three vessels, A paraquete (sp?), a human, and a big dog. In his dog vessel he ended up being the combat monster of the party (although it was a low combat, high social game). He always had the urge to talk to pigeons to get information though - I think he took "Stool pigeon" litterally. Starsurfer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:07:17 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Age of the Universe At 21:42 -0400 10/26/99, Azrael wrote: >In IN is the world/universe but 40,000 years old as it is said to be by Christians? No. Not according to the APG history (or the GMG timeline, as I recall). The IN universe seems pretty consistent, for the most part, with modern scientific theories on the origins of the universe, man, etc., *except* that the Big Bang seems to have been God's work. (Which isn't really inconsistent with modern cosmological theory, as far as I understand it -- it doesn't usually try to explain what *caused* the Big Bang.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:09:21 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: IN> Humanity and Choirs this goes with the whole discussion of whether the Choirs were made before Humanity. simply put, as far as I can tell from references, the Choirs (including animal cherubs and the Mercurians) were created before mankind. some people complain that this doesn't make sense, but you're forgetting one very important thing...God is ineffable. we weren't meant to understand that, so we never will. - - Dennis H, Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, "ACF" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:14:13 -0600 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN [snip] >Vapula (and his minions) >are pretty much a non creative bunch. [snip] Woaaa there, I'm not sure if that true. As I understand it Jean knows all the laws of the corporeal universe, that info was handed over to him when he took over some of Rapheal's work load. Thus to invent some new gizmo he merely flips through his copy of the Coproreal Reality User's Manual (tm) and looks up the info he needs for his current project. On the other hand Vapula needs to be creative, as he doesn't have a Coproreal Reality User's Manual. So he does experements, like humans have to. He is capable of discovering things on his own and creating new technologies (as all of his celestial gizmos show, he couldn't just steal these from humanity). Does this mean he's above stealing stuff from human researchers? Nope. He probably slips out technology and info not just to cause problems with humanity but to get more collaborators (albeit unknowning ones) on his projects. When he comes to collect the resaults in these cases its not really stealing or plagerism, its reaping what he's sowed. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:15:55 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN >From: Walter Milliken >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >That's probably more consistent with INS/MV. I don't think that's >entirely appropriate to the SJGames version, though. Enh. I don't really understand why you are so keen to change something which isn't broken. (IMO) On >the other hand, many cases can support an investigation before a final >decision is made. Generally, a day or two spent investigating isn't going >to make much difference. Well, now you have to ask "is a day or two going to be long enough?" What if the demon was operating through dreamscapes, or was someone the researcher slept with a few weeks ago, or who has been corresponding with them by post? How long might it take to exhaust every possible opportunity (bearing in mind that detecting demons is not automatic)? By all means, make a decision on how long is appropriate to wait, and continue to gather data up until the end-point -- but sometimes "how long can we wait" is just a judgment call. The risks of waiting might just be too great. And in that case you do act first and then clean up. >I agree that an Elohite will make a quick decision when the dangers >from delay outweigh the risks from misunderstanding the situation. But >*only* then. For an Elohite to make a quick decision that *might oppose >God's intent* seems to me to be skirting dissonance. If you are capable of weighing up the pros and cons quickly, then you decide quickly, surely. Deciding to wait a week is still making a quick decision. So I'd put it the other way. If you are sure that you have sufficient time for a full in-depth investigation, then you do that before making any decisions. Otherwise, you make a calm and considered value judgment on the time available, and how much extra data any additional time is likely to add, and what the risks of waiting will be. When you reach your personal 'risk' threshold then you act. I think Jean would tend to act quickly. >Sure, there are >circumstances where it's appropriate. But it's not something they should >be doing routinely, which seems to be your reading of Jean. I'm reading Jean as the Archangel of /Lightning/, who is blessed with millenia of experience, godlike intellect, and low tolerance for mortals -- not 'an average Elohite' jo ;) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:23:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Wade Trupke Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN Ehrbar wrote: >Wade Trupke wrote: >> Angelic response would be much more varied. The >> status of AI souls would be debated. Even in the >> face of evidence, the idea that humans can >> produce beings with souls would be >> nigh-blasphemous. >Lilith is Canon-established to be human (still), >and Lilith is Canon- >established to be the creator of Lilim. >Therefore, humans can create >things with souls. Lilith can create Lilim because she made a deal with Lucifer, who made her a Demon Princess. I think that qualifies her as a "special case". Wade (unless I can create 'Wadim'...) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:27:01 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Question At 11:50 PM 10/25/99 -0500, you wrote: >>>>However, you aren't a Demon Princess. She >is a human Demon Princess and has the potential >to be a human Archangel. Weird, but true.<<< how do you know I'm not a demon princess huh? kidding aside would an archangel fall and bcome a demon prince or just a demon with a wordor just a demon. i.e. would Jordi become just another shedite? Ben, demon princess of something or other ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:32:21 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN > >Wade (unless I can create 'Wadim'...) > have you tried? just gather some spare forces and make one. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:32:53 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN >From: Tim Groth >He probably slips out technology and info not just to >cause problems with humanity but to get more collaborators (albeit >unknowning ones) on his projects. When he comes to collect the resaults in >these cases its not really stealing or plagerism, its reaping what he's >sowed. > *g* I am CERTAIN that this is absolutely how he sees things. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:57:21 PDT From: "Micheal Knight" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN >this is why i wouldn't have AIs being truly sentient IMC. anything that >could have it's destiny or fate altered by typing into a keyboard can't >really have a soul, IMHO. the whole point of humanity is their free will Excuse me? Can't I quite thoroughly alter your fate by hiring, firing, killing, maiming, or otherwise disrupting your life? I think this arguement is a poor arguement against free will of the AI itself. If this sort of arguement is true (In the IN universe or the REAL one) then there isn't any free will at all, even for humanity. Micheal, Ofanite of Eli in service to Jean, the angel of Caffiene (or Kaffeeeene) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:32:05 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Question From: Ben Aldred > > how do you know I'm not a demon princess huh? Wrong color hair. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:34:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Age of the Universe Azrael wrote: > In IN is the world/universe but 40,000 years old as it is said to be > by Christians? As John K. (I think) already said, the IN universe has pretty much the same chronology as the standard scientific one. However, it is not true that "Christians" generically believe the universe to be 40,000 years old. Most Christian denominations do not make an issue out of the age of the universe, and have no trouble taking the first chapter of Genesis non-literally enough to waive the chronology. The literalists who insist on a universe created in six days usually set its age at something like 6000 years, not 40,000, and are a (loud) minority. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:56:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: AI in IN At 7:00 PM -0400 10/25/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >At 14:49 -0400 10/25/99, Jo Hart wrote: [...] >>Since when did Lilith have a "hands off humans" viewpoint? :) > >That's part of the "in our campaign" bit. Though it's logical -- being >a guinea pig in a celestial tug-of-war between God and Lucifer wasn't >likely to leave her with a fond feeling for celestial meddling.... (Whereas her _own_ meddling is perfectly fine. She is, after all, a human herself, right? (Ancient and possessed of supernatural powers, of course, but hush.)) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:56:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Critters of Myth (Re: AI in IN) At 7:48 PM -0400 10/25/99, Richard Gant wrote: >On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 9:50 PM -0400 10/24/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >> >It's been established in Canon, particularly in the APG/IPG and Fall >> >of the Malakim, that Jordi created the creatures of myth that >> >populated the Earth. >> >> Created SOME OF. > >Can you elaborate on this? Uriel is back in my campaign, and a better >understanding of which ethereals were created by Jordi and which were >created by humans would help me flesh out Divine politics a little better. Ah-hah, that's intersting... It's not in the copies of the books I have, and must therefore be a leaked bit of pre-canon... Basically, IIRC my secret Illuminati notes, Jordi had tried his hand at the art of supernatural evolution or some such, with some of the more corporeal Marches-style beasties. (I'd be interested to know the page numbers in the APG, IPG, and FotM (??) where it says Jordi made the Earthly creatures of myth -- I can't find any reference to it there. Or in _The Marches_.) Jordi's beasties wouldn't be true ethereals, however, if he did a little divine gengineering -- they'd be corporeal beings. Perhaps equivalent in moral standing to the Children of the Grigori and the Nephal(l)im... From the Liber Servitorum, it's certain (if the GM doesn't decide otherwise, of course) that ifrits/genies, Baba Yaga, the fay, and a Grecian Sphynx (the one with riddles, not the big stone Egyptian guy) are ethereal creatures, presumably created by humanity. (Basically, celestials don't go around creating _ethereals_, though they might be able to make a corporeal creature that mimicked the appearance of an ethereal being's manifestation.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:57:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> I Have Some Questions At 9:50 AM -0700 10/26/99, Azrael wrote: >How many of my questions actually got through? >There were about four. >When it bounced back tome there was only this one. >Anyone mind if I try to repost? Only one got posted in that message, unless you had the rest in MIME or HTML. (If you had the others in something other than plain text, then DON'T do that again!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:15:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Vapula's Gadgets At 10:06 AM -0700 10/26/99, Azrael wrote: >Could Jean and his merry bunch alter the Way Cool Shades that Impudites are provided with? >So that they work for Angels. Wouldn't need to. According to the Liber Reliquarum, they're just artifacts. Of course, some of the owners pay for the "me only" Features as insurance. (I'm pretty sure there's no "only works for X Band" default listed for them in the Liber Reliquarum.) Of course, _duplicating_ them might well be more trouble than it's worth, in Jean's opinion. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1378 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.