From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Oct 27 11:53:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16510 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:53:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA02597 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:44:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:44:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199910271644.LAA02597@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1379 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1379 In this digest: Re: IN> Jean and Progress Re: IN> Age of the Universe Re: IN> Bright Lilim Question IN> Scientology demons IN> Jean and Progress IN> Wadim (Re: AI in IN) IN> Falling Superiors : wear a hardhat (Re: Bright Lilim Question) IN> Messing with Fates IN> Critters of Myth Re: IN> AI in IN IN> Jordi and the Critters of Myth Re: IN> Scientology demons Re: IN> Age of the Universe Re: IN> Critters of Myth Re: IN> Messing with Fates Re: IN> Critters of Myth IN> Elohim Re: IN> Critters of Myth Re: IN> Falling Superiors : wear a hardhat (Re: Bright Lilim Question) Re: IN> Scientology demons Re: IN> Falling Superiors : wear a hardhat (Re: Bright Lilim Question) Re: IN> Fluff from another planet Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Humanity and Choirs Re: IN> Falling Superiors : wear a hardhat (Re: Bright Lilim Question) IN> Omniciense IN> Chain of Command IN> Pop Culture Icons Re: IN> Omniciense Re: IN> Omniciense Re: IN> Omniciense Re: IN> Omniscience Re: IN> Chain of Command Re: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! Re: IN> Elohim Re: IN> Omniciense Re: IN> Chain of Command ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:44:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Jean and Progress At 7:58 AM -0500 10/26/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>I agree about his assessment of his intelligence, but I don't think it's at all normal for an Elohite to rush to judgment without collecting enough information to determine the optimal path of the Symphony.<<< > >[...]If Jean (with millenia of experience and an intellect >that's beyond super-genius) deems something harmful, I think he'd act to >remove it -- fast --[...] I've been squinting at you people and wondering why you pick the binary "he does/doesn't investigate first." Surely there are ways to temporarily slow down or squelch something while an investigation goes on, without going to the extremes of "let it happen freely while we investigate" and "kill/kidnap/discredit the inventor, investigate later." Having the Squelch Team move in for a Stage One Delay while the Investigation Team conducts a Level Three (Urgent) Investigation would seem to be _the_ most optimal solution. (If it's demonic, then it's been delayed and the team is in position to squelch as necessary. If it's only human, the Squelch Team moves out and repairs any damage they caused...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:45:13 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Age of the Universe At 6:42 PM -0700 10/26/99, Azrael wrote: >In IN is the world/universe but 40,000 years old as it is said to be by Christians? No. The GMG's earliest date on the timeline is 4.6 billion BC. Formation of the Earth. (There are earlier dates, actually, but they're all "???".) Lilith's creation is around 23,000 BC. Don't tease her about her age. The Fall is listed as 22,625 BC, which I recall has some amusing in-joke related to it, but I forget what it was. (It's not an IN in-joke, either; it's more along the lines of why Uriel's yank-back was chosen when it was.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:45:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Question At 11:50 PM -0500 10/25/99, David Edelstein wrote: >If [Lilith] was to redeem, she might be >destroyed, she might become an Archangel, or she might become a normal, >non-Demon Princess human again. I'd vote for the latter. CDaU -- especially since it's _REALLY_ unlikely to happen in canon in the forseeable future. (Outside of canon, hey, you know the quote...) >(Interesting side question: would a Demon Prince need an Archangel to >redeem him? Or a whole bunch of Archangels...?) Maybe, being a Superior, he would be able to hold his _own_ Forces together during the process, and would only need access to a Heaven Tether, to ascend and start the process... (Seneschal of Notre Dame: "BOSS, THERE'S A PRINCE HERE! AND HE'S... Oh. He just ascended. Uhhhh... Nevermind." >Regarding Lilith creating a Lilim with Forces from an Archangel, whom >the Archangel will then redeem on creation: only if the Lilim really >*wants* to redeem. Well, of course -- however, if one presumes that demons start out selfish in part because they are made by twisted Forces, then a demon whose component Forces _weren't_ twisted (or not very) would be more likely to _want_ to be totally untwisted. Furthermore, lack of memetic contamination from living in Hell (i.e., not learning instantly that the world is a nasty place) could also help encourage "angelic" traits. Further, if we presume memetic inheritance through Forces (which is a kind of fun thing to do), the Lilim in question will probably have a strong affinity for the Word of her AA "father," and _wish_ to move to an environment which better exemplifies (is that the right word?) his Word -- would a Daughter of Flowers _really_ be happy in the Media? Or Lust? Or even as a Free? Mind, we're mostly talking statistical likelihood here, not absolutes. (Well, we could talk absolutes outside of canon, but that kind of turns into "We do X, and get Y plot threads from it, which we find useful.") But there are a fair number of ways to stack the deck, with some plausible assumptions. (And then there's the implausible ones, but those probably tend to be campaign-specific.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:47:24 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Scientology demons >>>The real question in my mind (by the way, Az, she wanted to be asked OFFthe list.) is whether there is a Demon of Free Personality Tests. And who said demon would work for.<<< In my campaign, the headquarters of the Church of Scientology in Los Angeles is a Tether to Greed. But I can see Kobal being behind them too. Maybe even Vapula, if he got into "the technology of the mind." - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:54:28 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Jean and Progress >>>I agree that an Elohite will make a quick decision when the dangers from delay outweigh the risks from misunderstanding the situation. But *only* then. For an Elohite to make a quick decision that *might oppose God's intent* seems to me to be skirting dissonance. Sure, there are circumstances where it's appropriate. But it's not something they should be doing routinely, which seems to be your reading of Jean.<<< OK, wait a minute. Do Elohim have to stop and consider whether every single decision they make *might* oppose God's intent? Considering how ineffable the IN God is, that seems a bit absurd. More likely they have fairly fixed guidelines (based largely on their Word) as to what is likely to be opposing God's intent. If Jean decided long ago that God intends mankind to not get hold of technology they're not ready for, then I think he could follow that principle consistently without having to investigate every individual new development. ("Does God favor or oppose internal combustion? How about nuclear power? How about the Internet? How about Viagra?") If Jean has already concluded that it's objectively good to keep dangerous things out of humanity's hands, then he'll use his own judgment and experience to determine what's dangerous. I think turning Jean into a dithering scientist rather than a super-genius who's quite confident enough to decide for himself what's best for humanity is a mistake, and will make the Archangel of Lightning b-o-r-i-n-g. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:58:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Wadim (Re: AI in IN) At 9:23 AM -0700 10/26/99, Wade Trupke wrote: >Lilith can create Lilim because she made a deal >with Lucifer, who made her a Demon Princess. I >think that qualifies her as a "special case". > >Wade (unless I can create 'Wadim'...) (Only if you can get Lucifer to make you into a "Demon" Prince, and survive Lilith getting annoyed because her uniqueness is endangered. (Since you'd be a really new Prince, and she's, ah, experienced. (It not being wise to make comments about a lady's age.) And you wouldn't have any Tethers and not many Servitors and stuff.) And providing that Lilith's genesis (created by God) wasn't the key thing that allowed Lucifer to do that in the first place.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:03:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Falling Superiors : wear a hardhat (Re: Bright Lilim Question) At 11:27 AM -0400 10/26/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >>kidding aside would an archangel fall and bcome a demon prince or just a >demon with a wordor just a demon. i.e. would Jordi become just another >shedite? In the GMG, greatly paraphrased from memory. A Fallen (and presumably redeemed) Superior retains the state change that gives him the abilities of a Superior. He loses his Word. (It is a discussion among some angels as to how _long_ he would retain his Superior powers without a Word to fuel them; but it's never happened, and no angel cares to find out. Few Princes, either, actually -- who wants a PO'ed Superior running around like a loose cannon?) Of course, the matter isn't likey to come up -- Lucifer would either grant the new demon a Word and Princely coronet, or find some way to get the new demon trashed quickly. (Lucifer: "Michael Fell? Hahahahaha! That's funny. Kill him.") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:58:15 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Messing with Fates >>>Excuse me? Can't I quite thoroughly alter your fate by hiring, firing, killing, maiming, or otherwise disrupting your life?<<< No. You might influence the decisions I make that take me toward or away from my fate, but you can't alter my fate. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:00:04 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Critters of Myth >>>(I'd be interested to know the page numbers in the APG, IPG, and FotM (??) where it says Jordi made the Earthly creatures of myth -- I can't find any reference to it there. Or in _The Marches_.)<<< The vignette at the beginning of The Marches. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:08:11 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 12:14 -0400 10/26/99, Tim Groth wrote: >[snip] >>Vapula (and his minions) >>are pretty much a non creative bunch. >[snip] >Woaaa there, I'm not sure if that true. As I understand it Jean knows all >the laws of the corporeal universe, that info was handed over to him when >he took over some of Rapheal's work load. Thus to invent some new gizmo he >merely flips through his copy of the Coproreal Reality User's Manual (tm) >and looks up the info he needs for his current project. Actually, while Jean may have all the mathematical formulae for reality, this doesn't necessarily imply he has all *applications* of that knowledge. Yes, he could probably understand how any particular thing worked, but it doesn't mean that he (or his Servitors) would think of creating such a thing. (Or that they wouldn't, either.) There are big differences between science, engineering, and invention. Jean's Word appears to encompass all of these, but his Big Book of Symphonic Mechanics may only cover the first. That's a *big* advantage in inventing things, but it doesn't mean he has the detailed plans for all possible inventions. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:14:16 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: IN> Jordi and the Critters of Myth From: Elizabeth McCoy > > Jordi's beasties wouldn't be true ethereals, however, if he did a > little divine gengineering -- they'd be corporeal beings. Perhaps > equivalent in moral standing to the Children of the Grigori and the > Nephal(l)im... > (Basically, celestials don't go around creating _ethereals_, though > they might be able to make a corporeal creature that mimicked the > appearance of an ethereal being's manifestation.) This would explain another part of why Jordi got so mad at Uriel- with all the etherial beasties being hunted to extinction, A: He was losing the templates for the creatures he was creating corporeal versions of, and B: A lot of his corporeal creations were getting slaughtered in the crusade against the Etherials. Destroying and invalidating the work of an Archangel is not the most politically smart of all possible moves, after all. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:26:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Scientology demons At 1:47 PM -0500 10/26/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>The real question in my mind (by the way, Az, she wanted to be asked OFFthe list.) is whether there is a Demon of Free Personality Tests. And who said demon would work for.<<< > >In my campaign, the headquarters of the Church of Scientology in Los >Angeles is a Tether to Greed. But I can see Kobal being behind them too. >Maybe even Vapula, if he got into "the technology of the mind." Mind, the canon viewpoint is that they're as full of Just Plain Humans as any other religion. (I could hardly condone anything else, considering the family I was born into...) [And when I say ask off-list, I mean it.] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:19:03 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Age of the Universe the official timeline (from the GMG) has the first actual numbered event as 4.6 billion years ago (The Earth is formed). is has a few events before that with a ??? listed as the date, those other events include creation of several angels. - - Dennis H, Groome V "Amo Nympham" ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -Stabbing Westward, "ACF" - -----Original Message----- From: Azrael To: IN Date: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 3:45 AM Subject: IN> Age of the Universe >In IN is the world/universe but 40,000 years old as it is said to be by Christians? > >Azrael > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:33:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Critters of Myth At 2:00 PM -0500 10/26/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>(I'd be interested to know the page numbers in the APG, IPG, and FotM (??) where it says Jordi made the Earthly creatures of myth -- I can't find any reference to it there. Or in _The Marches_.)<<< > >The vignette at the beginning of The Marches. "And Archangel Jordi said 'I do [speak against Uriel]," with a great roar, for his voice was the voice of a thousand lions, and the scream of a thousand eagles, and the hissing of a thousand serpents, and he said, 'Thou hast slain the unicorn and the dragon and the gryphon, and they were all creatures precious to me, and thou has slain them to the last!' "And Uriel said, 'Thou has forgotten that God gave Man dominion over the animals, even the wisest of animals. He made the dragons, verily, they and their ilk, and He made them mortal that they might die when their time was over. They consorted with Evil and were slain to the last, and thou shouldst rejoice in that cleaning.'" p. 4, _The Marches_, the only paragraphs regarding Jordi here. A bit further down, we get Blandine, which is actually closer... " 'You invaded my Marches, and slew all the creatures of myth,' she said to Uriel. 'In Your name, your Malakim stormed the dreaming and killed my creations. [...]'" So, as I say, where doth is say Jordi made the Earthly creatures of myth, _in print_? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:33:03 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Messing with Fates At 01:58 PM 10/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >>>>Excuse me? Can't I quite thoroughly alter your fate by hiring, firing, killing, maiming, or otherwise disrupting your life?<<< > >No. You might influence the decisions I make that take me toward or away >from my fate, but you can't alter my fate. > But he can make it impossible to achieve your destiny. i.e. your destiny is to save ghana from nuclear war and he just waltzes in one day and blows up ghana then you are screwed in that sense. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:48:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Critters of Myth Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >The vignette at the beginning of The Marches. > > "And Archangel Jordi said 'I do [speak against Uriel]," [...] > 'Thou hast slain the unicorn and the dragon and the gryphon, and > they were all creatures precious to me, and thou has slain them to the > last!' > > "And Uriel said, 'Thou has forgotten that God gave Man dominion over > the animals, even the wisest of animals. He made the dragons, verily, > they and their ilk, and He made them mortal that they might die when > their time was over. They consorted with Evil and were slain to the > last, and thou shouldst rejoice in that cleaning.'" Hm. This is fairly clearly saying that dragons are not mythical, but were real animals, and strongly suggests they were, like humans, capable of choosing between good and evil. It also suggests that gryphons and unicorns were real, physical animals, too. Are Bigfoot and Nessie and the sundry other cryptozoa so shy because they doesn't want to be spotted by any leftover Tsayadim? Are they perhaps being hidden by Jordi's servitors? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:01:35 -0700 (PDT) From: john karakash Subject: IN> Elohim DAVID SPEAKETH: That I can't agree with. Yes, an Elohite would no doubt prefer to gather as much information as possible, but the above implies an Elohite can never act in haste, and in fact makes them rather dithering and inefficient. If Jean (with millenia of experience and an intellect that's beyond super-genius) deems something harmful, I think he'd act to remove it -- fast -- not delay while his Servitors conduct an investigation and then waste more time weighing the pros and cons. It's not dissonant for Elohim to make snap-judgments; they just have to make their judgments based on objective criteria. (And if they find out they were wrong afterwards...oops. Everyone makes mistakes.) ============== David is 100% correct. Elohim are _always_ going on incomplete information. While they would like to get as much as possible, that isn't a luxury they have. As long as they are using their best judgement at the time (unclouded by emotion), on the information they have at the time, then they don't get dissonant. ===== +++Author, cook, computer genius, modest as heck +++ John Karakash __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:35:39 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Critters of Myth From: Earl Wajenberg > > Are Bigfoot and Nessie and the sundry other cryptozoa so shy because > they doesn't want to be spotted by any leftover Tsayadim? Are they > perhaps being hidden by Jordi's servitors? That would Explain why the Media are so hot to get proof of their existence... *g* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:19:05 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Falling Superiors : wear a hardhat (Re: Bright Lilim Question) Am I right that, in canon, no Superior has ever Fallen or Redeemed, excepting The Fall(tm)? Magog fell and was made a Superior...but he was merely a powerful Wordbound previously. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:23:40 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Scientology demons On a related note, pretty much every religion of note is Mostly Humans if not All Humans. And each likewise has some demon, angel or both behind it. Not necessarily as the cause, or as a major leader, but any major issue of faith is likely to have at least one party from either side interested. And I'm sure Operation Clambake isn't a plot by Litheroy. Really. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 18:00:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Falling Superiors : wear a hardhat (Re: Bright Lilim Question) At 2:19 PM -0700 10/26/99, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Am I right that, in canon, no Superior has ever Fallen or Redeemed, >excepting The Fall(tm)? Magog fell and was made a Superior...but he was >merely a powerful Wordbound previously. Correct, yup. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:34:11 +0100 From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Fluff from another planet In article <3814D34F.B2E75919@thehub.com.au>, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > Well, _someone's_ obviously been reading Wodehouse over the > weekend... > Any Drones fans should take a look at the Drones RPG, available free > online at: > http://www.granta.demon.co.uk/drones/index.html > It's rather fun. I should say so old chap! Though having played a game at Baroquon, I have to say that we didn't actually test the system very much, in that we may have rolled dice once. Then again, there were some exceptional roleplayers in that bunch. Leaping smartly back on topic: Jolly good show, Jo! - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:09:59 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN Steel Angel wrote: > > ParadoxDruid wrote: > > > What is humanity (all by itself, so Jean couldn't do anything) created a > > device that could alter human memories and beliefs by "typing into a > > keyboard"... do humans all suddenly lose their souls? > > > > > > > >this is why i wouldn't have AIs being truly sentient IMC. anything that > > >could have it's destiny or fate altered by typing into a keyboard can't > > >really have a soul, IMHO. the whole point of humanity is their free will > > Ever hear of brainwashing? It can accomplish some amazing things. Drugs, > deprivation, torture, conditioning. Talk about alterig someone's Destiny...No > different than messing with an AI (and I doubt something that -complex- could > be so easily altered, try getting a nice neural net to alter its 'behavior'), > just a different method. > > - Abracax: Shedite of Riots But, IMC, everyone nearby the system/network it is on would know when you started altering the program -- you're a Celestial doing body/soul hits to an ensouled being, thus, for every 4 characters/bytes/lines of code you change, there will be one point of disturbance audible to any Celestial at a terminal, or within range of a terminal or connecting line hooked up to the computer or network holding the AI. Nasty idea: calabim are being put down left and right. The only connecting factor is that they are all using the same brand of Infernal Bank Card to draw on Hell's resources over ATM's. Shortly after making a withdrawal, the Calab gets smacked by Malakim of Marc and Jean wielding nasty swords and Jean's Generator Attunement. WTF is going on? Why are so many Calabim getting laid low, put into trauma left, right, and center? Answer: the ATM system has a AI soggie hosted on it. Whenever a Calab's entropy field starts doing damage to the AI's mind, Jean's angels go looking for the Calab. Sooner or later, the Calab will use an ATM with the angels in range to hear the Disturbance as he does mind/body/soul hits, as applicable, to the ensouled AI. This can be sped up if they are teamed to a Cherub of Lightning with Jean's Friend of the Divine Spark Distinction. But how long do the Angels have before the wounds to the AI become mortal and Jean or Marc loses one of His most inconspicuous servants? Will the Angels find the Calab and put him in Trauma in time to save the AI? This could obviously be played from the point of view of an Infernal investigation into unauthorized rest/Trauma by several Calabim in service to a number of DPs, or from the Angelic side, as a save-the-mortal-agent adventure. A mixed group may have both threads running concurrently. With a Truly Evil GM [TM], the mixed group will receive orders that pit one half of the group against the other half, without either side realizing the string-pullers that are complicating their mission are none other than their own team-mates until near the end of the game. Just my .02 dollars worth, Tom Timberlake, Angel of Poingy Goodness - -- "Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in Hell!" --"Strange Blood" "A Wolfrider's Reflection", various artist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:37:44 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Humanity and Choirs Amo Nympham wrote: > this goes with the whole discussion of whether the Choirs were made before > Humanity. simply put, as far as I can tell from references, the Choirs > (including animal cherubs and the Mercurians) were created before mankind. > some people complain that this doesn't make sense, but you're forgetting one > very important thing...God is ineffable. we weren't meant to understand > that, so we never will. Also, remember the perceptual differences between humans and Celestials. It may be that no, a Seraph has no real, physical form that a human can comprehend, but the six-eyed, winged serpent is a sort of representation of the Seraph to the poor Corporeals. This representation is more-or-less universal, so humans - -perceive- a Seraph as the snake. Which could explain Shedim and Kyriotates. Their fundamental nature is so very alien, that even "filtered" humans have a real problem perceiving them properly. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:52:05 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Falling Superiors : wear a hardhat (Re: Bright Lilim Question) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > In the GMG, greatly paraphrased from memory. > > A Fallen (and presumably redeemed) Superior retains the state change > that gives him the abilities of a Superior. > -- who > wants a PO'ed Superior running around like a loose cannon?) Of course, > the matter isn't likey to come up -- Lucifer would either grant the > new demon a Word and Princely coronet, or find some way to get the > new demon trashed quickly. > > (Lucifer: "Michael Fell? Hahahahaha! That's funny. Kill him.") Now the question becomes, how much havok could Michael wreak in Hell while gunning for Lucifer's throne? If Michael fell, I'd say it'd be from Pride, Vainglory, or something like what Dominic (rightly) accused him of (yes, I'm a Judgement-booster). So, since Michael did kick Lucifer's ass, he might feel the need to go do it again, or try, anyway. Now -there's' a bizarre campaign seed. Michael Falls, kills Lucifer before anyone can stop him (just tears straight towards Lucifer, ignoring Baal or kills Baal -first- and takes his Forces) and decides to absorb the Lightbringer's Forces and his position. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 18:56:49 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Omniciense God is omnicient, correct? God is ineffable, correct? Thus does God know every single possibility or does he know exactly what will happen? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 18:58:16 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Chain of Command At which point does an angel of another choir outrank a seraph?And which Superiors Servitors outrank other Superiors Servitiors? i.e. Does a starting level 9 force Seraph of Sword outrank a 12 force Ofanite of Eli or Blandine? Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 99 19:12:52 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: IN> Pop Culture Icons Which Pop icons would you asociate the various Choirs/Superiors/Specific Servitors with? I for example, when I think * I then think: *Malakim: Terminator (asin the first one, y'know Anrie) cept in a good way. *Ofanim: Brad Pitt in Twelve Monkeys. *Shedim: A less lustful, more malevolent version of Beavis and Butthead. *Lilim: Rose McGowan. Servitors of Haagenti: Homer Simpson (mmm...) What do you think of? In reference to my earlier post on 2 minute eggs, I have written lists on many other things (includings "Things that Celestial Just Have To Take on a Trip to Earth", "Superiors Reactions to Two Minute Eggs" and "What the Various Superiors Think Koba;'s Big Joke Is"). Is anyone out there interested? Or are my writing too lame and uninspired? If you don't want me to post them, tell me, I don't want to waste Bandwidth/your time. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 02:27:42 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> Omniciense On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Azrael wrote: > God is ineffable, correct? Yes. And that's why your question cannot be answered for certain. Which you pick GREATLY alters your theology and is very wrapped up in Free Will. I prefer not to decide that one. It leaves people wondering what God's motivations are. He is, after all, ineffable. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 02:38:50 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Omniciense >On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Azrael wrote: > > > God is ineffable, correct? > We don't know. ;) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:43:14 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Omniciense At 06:56 PM 10/27/99 PDT, you wrote: >God is omnicient, correct? >God is ineffable, correct? >Thus does God know every single possibility or does he know exactly what will happen? > ineffability is crazy. It could be thentire point of the univers is just to get you to eat a piece of tofu and say mmm....not bad. everything leading up to now is a set up for that. that is the nature of ineffabillity. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:40:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Omniscience Azrael wrote: > God is omnicient, correct? > God is ineffable, correct? > Thus does God know every single possibility or does he know exactly > what will happen? I don't know that God's ineffability enters directly into the last question, but my own answer is "Both." God knows both the actuality and all the possibilities. Thus, in relation to the past, God knows what did happen and what could have, while in relation to the future, He knows what could happen and what actually will. And, for the Being that created space and time, the distinction between future and past is not absolute, the way it is for us. Of course, people have gone round and round on just this topic, in various forms, for centuries, going back at least to the theological speculations about God and Time by St. Augustine (d. 430). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:53:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Chain of Command Azrael wrote: > At which point does an angel of another choir outrank a seraph? > And which Superiors Servitors outrank other Superiors Servitiors? > i.e. Does a starting level 9 force Seraph of Sword outrank a 12 > force Ofanite of Eli or Blandine? I think one of the things that makes Heavenly politics so ... exciting in IN is the UNclear chain of command. Seraphim, my impression is, have a sort of social superiority analogous to a favored race or class in a human society, but no formal chain-of-command superiority. Thus, "all things being equal," other angels will tend to defer to a seraph, who will tend to expect such deference. As for rank between Archangels -- it doesn't exist. Some angels aren't even civil to the angels of hostile Superiors, and never mind choirs. Thus I can see a century-old 9-force Mercurian of Michael's telling an 18-force Seraph of Judgement, "Blow off, hyena-snake." (And, being a natural diplomat, while the seraph is the very reverse, the Mercurian is not likely to do that unless it has already figured out that it can safely get away with it -- even at a mere century old.) *Theoretically*, angels should defer to other angels working in their Word's domain. Thus, any other angel in the Marches should give a certain amount of deference to one of Blandine's angels, partly because this is their home turf and it's just polite, partly because you'd expect the Dream angel to know the territory better so it's only sensible, and partly because being rude and obstructive *here* is likelier to incur the wrath of Blandine herself. But then, Words don't have neat jurisdictional boundaries. Judgement, for instance, is notorious for horning in everywhere. Blandine's is one of the more neatly-bounded jurisdictions. So it's all very messy (and clearly designed to be so, I think, to multiply role-playing opportunities). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:38:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [Campaign Seed] Election Day! I forwarded the Election Day post to my father, with whom I sometimes chat about In Nomine. This is his reply: "While reading this, I was constatntly reminded of the New Hampshire legislature and the Republican National Committee. I do think, however, that campaign finance reform should be a major issue, that everyone publicly supports and secretly opposes." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:43:06 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Elohim At 16:01 -0400 10/26/99, john karakash wrote: > David is 100% correct. Elohim are _always_ >going on incomplete information. While they >would like to get as much as possible, that >isn't a luxury they have. As long as they >are using their best judgement at the time >(unclouded by emotion), on the information >they have at the time, then they don't get >dissonant. I never said otherwise. But if they act in haste *when haste isn't clearly required*, that's equally subjective, in my opinion. In a group with an Elohite and an Ofanite, the Power should be restraining the Wheel from hasty action a lot of the time, not going along with it. All I was trying to say was that it would be close to dissonant for an Elohite to make a "best guess" based on prejudice (in Jean's case, the assumption that all human advances were due to demonic influence), without looking for more data, *if* there was no need for hasty action. Or, as Elizabeth pointed out, if there's a way to delay things to give time for an investigation. Acting simply from a prejudice seems very far from the Elohite nature. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:00:53 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Omniciense At 21:56 -0400 10/27/99, Azrael wrote: >God is omnicient, correct? I'm not sure that His omniscience is actually part of canon, though the nature of Interventions suggests that God *and Lucifer* are at least near-omniscient. >God is ineffable, correct? That is certainly true in canon. >Thus does God know every single possibility or does he know exactly what will happen? There are a couple questions that come up for me in this: - does omniscience apply to all of space-time, or is it possible to limit it to the past and present, and still be unknowing of the future? - does knowing the state of the present give the ability to accurately predict the future? If omniscience is defined as knowing the entire state of the universe over its entire existance, then the answer to your question is that God knows exactly what will happen -- it's all static. (Then you can ask the usual question about where free will fits into this model....) If omniscience is limited to the present, and the future can be computed from the present without error, you get essentially the same result, if you assume that God has infinite computing capacity. (In this model, you could also postulate that the Symphony is, in fact, just the mind of God computing the Symphony's course....) Otherwise, he may know only a set of probable future states, or be as much in the dark as anyone else. In my own campaign, I've postulated a sort of Heisenberg relationship between knowledge of the future, and the ability to change it. Perfect knowledge of the future renders it immutable, while total ignorance of the actual course of the Symphony results in perfect freedom to change it. In this model, God *could* know the future, but then would be powerless to change it. So in my campaign, He doesn't peek very much; this gives free will a chance to operate. This neatly explains a lot about the Symphony, including why Yves tends to avoid taking a lot of direct action -- he can't change things he knows about the future. But others, operating in greater ignorance, might be able to affect them. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:42:44 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Chain of Command At 21:58 -0400 10/27/99, Azrael wrote: >At which point does an angel of another choir outrank a seraph?And which Superiors Servitors outrank other Superiors Servitiors? >i.e. Does a starting level 9 force Seraph of Sword outrank a 12 force Ofanite of Eli or Blandine? Things aren't that clear-cut, but there are some general guidelines I use in my game: - a Superior outranks everyone else except other Superiors; few angels will refuse an order from *any* Superior, unless their own has given them direct orders to the contrary (or it's *very* clear that the Superior's orders are contrary to the angel's own Superior's interests). - generally, an angel with a distinction outranks an angel without one; except are where there is hostility between the Superiors - an angel with a higher distinction outranks a lower *within* his own Word; outside his own hierarchy, relative rankings are also influenced by the relationship between the Archangels, and have to be looked at in the context of that relationship, and the situation at hand. - angels with Words generally outrank angels without Words; the relative rankings between Words and distinctions, where only one or the other exists, are murky -- probably best handled case-by-case, even depending on the situation. - other things being equal, a Seraph outranks other angels. Forces play a minor role in this -- a high-Force angel is also likely to have a distinction or Word; one who doesn't may be in disfavor with his own Superior, and therefore doesn't necessarily have a lot of influence. Angels with more experience generally wield some influence, but experience also tends to be reflected in Forces, distinctions, and Words. A really old angel with no Word or distinctions could easily be a ne'er-do-well. Minor differences in Forces or experience don't generally amount to any sort of real authority over others. Of course, if an angel with authority designates a particular angel as being in command for a particular mission, then that will tend to override the above guidelines. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1379 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.