From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Oct 30 13:13:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA32117 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:13:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA09658 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:12:29 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:12:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199910301812.NAA09658@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1383 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, October 30 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1383 In this digest: IN> The Final Trumpet and the Balance of Power Re: IN> What Celestial Bring to Earth Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Omniscience Re: IN> Baal's Tethers IN> Polite Address of Princesses Khalid (was IN> Omniscience) IN> Baal's Tethers Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: Khalid (was IN> Omniscience) Re: IN> What Celestial Bring to Earth Re: IN> More Pop Icons Re: IN> What Celestial Bring to Earth Re: Khalid (was IN> Omniscience) Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> The Final Trumpet and the Balance of Power Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Polite Address of Princesses (Re: Wadim) Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Baal's Tethers Re: IN> Jordi and the Critters of Myth IN> adam and co Re: IN> Jordi and the Critters of Myth Re: IN> AI in IN Re: IN> Baal's Tethers Re: IN> Aliens in IN Re: IN> adam and co Re: IN> More Pop Icons Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Polite Address of Princesses (Re: Wadim) Re: IN> Polite Address of Princesses Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:50:47 EDT From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: IN> The Final Trumpet and the Balance of Power I've noticed that there's a tendency on this list to downplay the forces of Hell. Whether to claim that demonic Words are mere illusions to the belief that Vapula's demons get most (if not all) of their technological breakthroughs from humans, there seems to be a definite trend towards making Hell a less than worthy adversary. Going through the superior write-ups of The Final Trumpet, I have to wonder whether or not the canonical balance of power doesn't actually favor Hell or not. Divided Heaven vs. Unified Hell Laurence has resistance to his leadership of Heaven's forces. Michael does his own thing. David feels that he should be leader. Janus wants Michael in his place. Novalis is ignored by him. Blandine and Jordi may or may not have quarrels with him over his role in Uriel's Purity Crusade. Khalid feels that he deserves Laurence's position. Eli is gone. Gabriel's a loon and ignores him. He's relatively (less than 1300 years) new at his status as Archangel, much less Commander of Heaven's Armies. Heaven seems unused to divisions (demonstrated by big events seeming to cause a lot of trouble). Archangels seem to have more problems with the interruption of the status quo, and the relative lack of new blood (only Laurence, Khalid, Christopher, and Zadkiel are recorded as having achieved superior status within relatively recent years, as opposed to Nybbas, Fleurity, Vapula, Haagenti, Alaemon, Valefor, Legion, and Furfur in about the same time period) seems to indicate a reluctance to break the status quo. Compare this with Hell. "Most other Princes respect (Baal), some hate him, but no one would prefer another in his place." (Final Trumpet, page 28) To be sure, politics are volatile in Hell. The Princes fight amongst each other. Malphas schemes to bring everyone in conflict with everyone. Kobal plots to make everyone look stupid. But, this is merely business as usual. Hell is used to internal squabbles. Hell has made a technology race with Heaven (from comments from Hopscotch's history in Fall of the Malakim, page 50). I mean, Jean was given all the secrets of the world by Yves, and Vapula somehow managed to pull ahead of him. Several influential Princes have risen fairly recently (about half of the ones in the previous paragraph), and they (and the rest of Hell) adapted to their positions fairly rapidly. All the Princes seem to defer to Baal when it concerns the War. (As they should, I mean, it's his Word.) Certain Princes may add their own elements to his orders (Belial adds more explosions, Kobal would add a moment where it occurs to those involved what just happened to them before they get put into Trauma, etc.) but I don't see anything that would indicate they wouldn't follow his commands. I mean, if he cowed about half of Hell into supporting Armageddon, then he can probably convince them to do what he wants most of the time. A Prescient Enemy Yves, Kronos, and Gabriel are all considered to have a special connection to the Symphony. However, in Kobal's expanded write-up (specifically paragraphs 2 through 4 on page 33 of The Final Trumpet), it seems to indicate that Lucifer knew that his Rebellion would fail, and he and his followers would be cast out of Heaven. Now, this can be interpreted as anyone who goes against God knows that they're going to lose, but it seems to indicate that Lucifer knew that he'd be set up as the Adversary and there would be a conflict between Heaven and Hell. To me, this indicates that Lucifer has some sort of precognitive ability. Yves and Kronos get possible outcomes, while Gabriel gets visions that may not even make sense to her. Lucifer seems to get something that he can fully understand and make clear to others. Maybe this is why Lucifer remains apart from Hell and interferes only rarely, to make sure he doesn't openly reveal this ability. His slight nudges here and there may be all that are needed to keep things on track to fulfill his visions. Certain things could actually be long-ranged plans of his (like the song that allowed Furfur to get Prince status, maybe Lucifer knows that Furfur has an important role to play in the War). Can Heaven stand before a Hell that works a lot better with change than it and an enemy that knows the future? Or have the conclusions I've reached have unbelievably large holes in them? S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 99 11:29:47 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> What Celestial Bring to Earth [Kyriotates say:] > > Why should we take things humans have such neat stuff and we just need to > find them. > > Ben > A marvelous idea. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:42:01 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) From: Azrael > But Gaby's cool, and Dominic's a bastard. no way! dom's the bomb. or something. liam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:40:53 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Omniscience From: Trent > Why don't you go to the Higher Heavens and > ask him? i don't have to. as the guy running the game i get to decide. one of the perks of GMing IN is that you literally ARE God :) o'course, other people running other games may choose to have god act in other ways. that's their choice (free will?). i was just pointing out that there's some support in canon for the idea that god doesn't know the future (at least, doesn't know it for sure). liam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:02:01 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Baal's Tethers At 08:50 PM 10/29/99 EDT, you wrote: >I've been perusing the books, and there's something that I don't get. Baal's >word is "The War." It has to do with the War between Heaven and Hell. >Tethers form when mortals take action pertaining to a superior's Word. So, >how did the published Tethers of the War (both in Liber Castellorum and The >Final Trumpet) come about? In reading the descriptions of them, it doesn't >seem as if they played any event in the War. In wars, sure, but not the War. > I may be missing something here, and I'm hoping that someone can explain it >to me. I have not read these examples but it could be implying that all wars are shades of the War and indeed some could just be aspects of it. For instance, the war of 1812 in America is thought of as simply a war between the british and the U.S. but it is really only a part of the napoleonic wars a war that spanned Europe. This could be similar, say, WWII could simply be a part of a greater period of struggle between heaven and hell and all mortals see is the corporeal part. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:51:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Polite Address of Princesses >>>Well, that holds true for -any- Superior, even Novalis. I can't imagine how Novalis would react is some demon started some really vicious name-calling.<<< She'd make a pouty-face, and the demon would have to make a Will roll at - -50 or apologize immediately. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 23:54:27 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Khalid (was IN> Omniscience) >>>Did you make him any less psychotic? Or do his angels still get essence from killing innocent humans?<<< He's less psychotic, thanks to The Final Trumpet. He's still not particularly *nice*... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 00:04:06 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Baal's Tethers >>>I've been perusing the books, and there's something that I don't get. Baal's word is "The War." It has to do with the War between Heaven and Hell. Tethers form when mortals take action pertaining to a superior's Word. So, how did the published Tethers of the War (both in Liber Castellorum and The Final Trumpet) come about? In reading the descriptions of them, it doesn't seem as if they played any event in the War. In wars, sure, but not the War. I may be missing something here, and I'm hoping that someone can explain it to me.<<< Baal's Word encompasses all the brutal, nasty, violent things humans can be goaded into doing to one another, since that diminishes their divine image, shows them to be more corruptible and less worthy, and supports Baal's worldview (which was the catalyst for his rebelling). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 99 15:18:05 PDT From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) > > But Gaby's cool, and Dominic's a bastard. > > no way! dom's the bomb. or something. > > > liam > That's right Dom is a bomb, a timebomb, he's gonna go off!!! <*BOOM!!!*>. Dominic is a new Uriel waiting to happen, 'cept this time it's gonna be angels not critter o' myth. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 01:58:53 -0500 (CDT) From: paranial@creighton.edu Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) On Sat, 30 Oct 1999, Azrael wrote: > > > > > > But Gaby's cool, and Dominic's a bastard. > > > > no way! dom's the bomb. or something. > > > > > > liam > > > That's right Dom is a bomb, a timebomb, he's gonna go off!!! <*BOOM!!!*>. Dominic is a new Uriel waiting to happen, 'cept this time it's gonna be angels not critter o' myth. > > Azrael > > I know what BalDom is but what I don't get is the basis for it. Bradley Paranial, Mercurian Vassal of War ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 01:19:49 PDT From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: Khalid (was IN> Omniscience) >From: David Edelstein > >He's less psychotic, thanks to The Final Trumpet. He's still not >particularly *nice*... > But he's an Elohite! :p jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 04:01:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> What Celestial Bring to Earth Relievers: The Junior Angel's Guide to the Corporeal by I. M. Grigori Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 04:27:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> More Pop Icons I think I'll do Comic Book Superiors Laurence = Captain America (Inspiring, idealistic leader with great tactical and strategic skill and a never say die attitude, known for weilding a special signature weapon) Gabriel = Ghostrider, The Spirit of Vengence (Burning body, punishes those who prey on innocent, can travel really fast) Gabriel = Original Phoenix (The embodiment of the Primal Fire of Creation, dark side can take over if she goes out of control) Jean = Reed Richards (Level headed genius with incredible gadgets) Kobal = Joker (No explanation needed) Valefor = Gambit (Smooth talking, stylish thief with the power to make things go boom) Haagenti = Galactus (Incredibly powerful being with big appetite :-) Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:45:02 +0100 From: Pak Chan Subject: Re: IN> What Celestial Bring to Earth At 11:48 29/10/1999 -0700, you wrote: >What Celestials Take on a Trip to Earth > >Cherubim: A gift for my attuned, mabye a nice steak, or some flowers, or >A trip to earth? What the hell are you talkin' about? I'm always on earth! >Looking after my attuned (Hereafter refered to as Carol) is a full time job. > Why I've always got sooo much to do. There's watching Carol, making sure >everyone who talks to Carol is "OK", making sure no mosquitoes bite Carol >while she's sleeping, making sure there's toilet paper for when Carol need >to go, foolowing Carol in the car on her way to/from work, following Carol >at night etc...You shoulda asked what do I need for a trip to heaven? >CAROL!!!! On NO! a bees about to sting Carol!! (Cherub runs off, like an >Ofanim with rollereblades) Sounds more like a stalker...one step from Djinnhood. - ----- /= R o l e p l a y e r s o f t h e w o r l d . . . C o n q u e r ! =\ == Will roleplay for nothing. == \= Will GM for saki and promises of sushi. =/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:40:53 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: Khalid (was IN> Omniscience) At 1:19 AM -0700 10/30/99, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: David Edelstein >> >>He's less psychotic, thanks to The Final Trumpet. He's still not >>particularly *nice*... >> > > >But he's an Elohite! :p Objectivity means *never* having to say you're sorry. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:07:26 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) From: Azrael > > That's right Dom is a bomb, a timebomb, he's gonna go off!!! <*BOOM!!!*>. Dominic is a new > Uriel waiting to happen, 'cept this time it's gonna be angels not critter o' myth. heheheh, quite right too. them angels have been getting away with way too much. it's time to cleanse, cleanse! CLEANSE! *ahem* you can probably see where my loyalties lie... liam (who thinks eli should be hunted down and strung up) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:08:47 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> The Final Trumpet and the Balance of Power From: > Can Heaven stand before a Hell that works a lot better with change than it > and an enemy that knows the future? Or have the conclusions I've reached > have unbelievably large holes in them? i agree entirely. humanity is sliding towards the pit. kronos is chuckling and rubbing his hands. yves doesn't seem to smile as much as he used to. things are Grim. liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:09:57 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Adam Canning > You forget, Jean had them locked up in a warehouse, with a sign on the door > marked > "In case of Apocalypse, break seal." > :) archangels suddenly make a lot more sense to me if i picture them as Minds... liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:16:01 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Trent > Actually it's CDaU on the point of did god use evolution to make man or did > we pop up randomly. i guess so. i just assumed (perhaps wrongly) that it's pretty obvious humanity isn't random due to the whole shebang being based around them liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:18:19 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN From: Trent > Do we not create a new should every time a woman gives birth (at least)? > Are human clones soulless monsters? that's different though. the point was that you could (presumably) make an exact copy of an AI, presumably then creating an exact copy of its forces. a clone isn't an exact copy of a human. it's genetically the same, sure, but it may well have an entirely different personality (and destiny and fate) due to its upbringing liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:21:27 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) From: Steel Angel > I still see Dominic as being very sad and very lonely at what he -must- do. i think he feels he has the weight of heaven on his shoulders. he'd rather go too far than too little, and allow lucifer to win. he doesn't expect any more from others than he is willing to do so himself. liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:22:14 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Polite Address of Princesses (Re: Wadim) From: Steel Angel > > Well, that holds true for -any- Superior, even Novalis. I can't imagine > how Novalis would react is some demon started some really vicious > name-calling. ask him nicely to stop, and if he didn't, turn his head into a petunia for an hour or so liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:06:49 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) > I know what BalDom is but what I don't get is the basis for it. People read the Dominic write-up and go, "Eww! What a mean angel! He's not cool like Michael and Laurance, and he's mean, too! And how can anyone be so mean to a cool-looking angel with blood splattered on him! And why do you need some jerk poking his nose into the business of angels!? After all, we're a psuedo-libertarian generation-X crowd, we play these angels, we don't need some jerk telling us how to do our thing!" "Woah... wait... he has a big grey robe on. And look at those EYES. EVIL EYES. RED EYES. BAD." "He's gotta be a BALSERAPH. Or a Republican, at the very least!" > Bradley Paranial, Mercurian Vassal of War Simple-minded, but admittedly leads to a very dark game. Even darker if he's a Balseraph. I don't like the idea, though, and there's a very, very good write-up on the In Nomine Collection Website that explains that he's just a Seraph and he's just trying hard, really hard, to do his job. After all, he WAY screwed up by not even SEEING the First Fall. How could he, the codifier of God's Law and the head of Heavenly Order, NOT see the First Fall? Now he's overcompensating (False Discord?) just a little, but he's still fighting the good fight. I mean, do you WANT Gabriel in Heaven? She's a freaking lunatic. And Michael was suffering from the sin of pride, the exact sin that cast out Lucifer (the 2nd angel) and Baal (the 3rd angel). Dominic had no choice. And Eli just left Heaven and did his own thing. Hell is about individuality, not Heaven, and can you let an individual with the might of an Archangel run loose? That's little short of a Demonic Prince, so once again Dominic has to be the bad guy. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:06:27 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> Baal's Tethers From my campaign, we have defined things like this... War- War has a purpose. The War of this, the War for that. The War- It's the War. (borrowed from French) If the War is a perpetual thing, used by generals to stay in power...or if it's just part of a never-ending sequence of conflicts, it's under Baal's word. Much as The Game is both The Game Against Heaven and also any mind games in general(See extended writeup for Asmodeus) The War is both The War Against Heaven and any war for war's sake. War to benefit the war machine. That kind of thing. I'm not saying it's canon, but that's always been our own interpretation. As a tangent, anyone else find it funny that The Game and The War are both the conflict against Heaven? Some people are fighting it, others are trying to play head games with God...maybe... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:23:21 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and the Critters of Myth From: Steel Angel > That's it! The War isn't -about- Humanity! It's about platypusses! > (platypi?) -That's- the big, cosmic joke that Kobal knows all about! It's > the disposition of the souls of all the duckbills on Earth that will > determine the Destiny or Fate of the Symphony. there's a disturbingly growing australasian theme to this all. we're not going back to kiwis again are we? liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:33:15 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: IN> adam and co the recent talk about lilith and the eden expereiment made me wonder... lil & adam & eve were the only humans created directly by god - maybe this gave a special "slant" to their forces that made them more susceptible to channeling the celestial. this could be why lilith was able to gain a word and become a pseudo-demon-princess with lucifer's help. if you went along with this theory, then that could explain why adam's descendents all lived so long - they were "Human Plus". perhaps the people today who have that innate capability to gain more forces and become soldiers are actually descendents of adam and eve, retaining enough of the "genetic celestial-ness" to control their essence and learn songs. alternately, a few descendents of a&e could have other, special powers. perhaps something like the children of the grigori (or the belief that christ's bloodline has been kept going by the priory of sion). another idea, if lilith is still basically human, could she get pregnant and have kids? would her children be human, or demonic, or something else? liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:25:21 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Jordi and the Critters of Myth From: Elizabeth McCoy > > (Why, yes, the Moon was full recently. Why?) > but surely... you couldn't mean... not the dreaded... Were-Platypus? liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:18:44 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> AI in IN At 4:16 PM +0100 10/30/99, Liam wrote: >From: Trent > > > Actually it's CDaU on the point of did god use evolution to make man or >did > > we pop up randomly. > >i guess so. i just assumed (perhaps wrongly) that it's pretty obvious >humanity isn't random due to the whole shebang being based around them That depends on whether God is planning everything out or running an experiment, I'd think. I have this image of God running SimReality, watching what happens. "Hey -- look at those creatures. They're capable of faith. Actual faith. Hm. Let's see what happens to them. Hey guys -- hands off the humans! No, I mean it. Awwww... Lucifer, don't do *that....*" - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:23:39 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Baal's Tethers At 9:06 AM -0700 10/30/99, The Alien wrote: > >From my campaign, we have defined things like this... > >War- War has a purpose. The War of this, the War for that. > >The War- It's the War. (borrowed from French) If the War is a perpetual >thing, used by generals to stay in power...or if it's just part of a >never-ending sequence of conflicts, it's under Baal's word. > >Much as The Game is both The Game Against Heaven and also any mind games >in general(See extended writeup for Asmodeus) The War is both The War >Against Heaven and any war for war's sake. War to benefit the war >machine. That kind of thing. > >I'm not saying it's canon, but that's always been our own interpretation. > >As a tangent, anyone else find it funny that The Game and The War are both >the conflict against Heaven? Some people are fighting it, others are >trying to play head games with God...maybe... And some are just playing, while for others it's the entire point of existence. I think the central conflict of Hell, perhaps unstated until now, is between the Game and the War -- the rules for their own sake, followed for their own sake, versus the battle for it's own sake, the deadly seriousness of war and death. The War against Heaven. The Game all demons must play. Which is the most important thing. Heaven may be fighting for the souls of Man, but Baal and Asmodeus may be fighting for the perceptions of their fellow demons.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 16:24:16 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Aliens in IN From: Ben Glickler > The simplist solution is to say that Earth is the only planet that matters, > and that aliens don't exist. Any humans who have seen aliens are the > victims of a Balseraphic plot, or folks who, somehow, saw an Elohite in its > celestial form. i couldn't agree more. i think it weakens the iconic power of an IN game if you start turning it into some sort of dodgy sci-fi game liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:40:04 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> adam and co > another idea, if lilith is still basically human, could she get pregnant and > have kids? would her children be human, or demonic, or something else? Ooh. Oooooooooooh. Imagine being the mortal man, stalked by the immortal Lilith, who has epitomized selfishness for so long that she is no longer capable of properly expressing love. Imagine being the angels, hearing the local news in your town, and having the one snippet of information that seems inconsequential and odd... "Ok, so body-count at the morgue is down, the gunshops just got a 50% increase in their sales, the corruption investigation at the police station was canned, get on it boys. Oh. We also tracked a disturbance one of our watchers heard to an e-mail sent to Wally Hensburg, inviting him to lunch at the Rose Garden Cafe. Turns out Wally responded but no-one showed. Kelaziel, I want you to spend a little time in the chatroom Wally frequents. Keep your eyes open for free-Dom@hotmail.com. That's all, boys. Go fight the good fight." > liam Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:11:48 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> More Pop Icons Michael --- Wolverine: He's the best at what he does, but what he does isn't very nice - -- "Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in Hell!" --"Strange Blood" "A Wolfrider's Reflection", various artist ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:07:21 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) On Sat, 30 Oct 1999, Ben Glickler wrote: > "Woah... wait... he has a big grey robe on. And look at those EYES. EVIL > EYES. RED EYES. BAD." > > "He's gotta be a BALSERAPH. Or a Republican, at the very least!" > Let me continue to stress that one reason so many people draw this conclusion is because Dominic was SUPPOSED to generate this response originally. It's doubly easy to still see it in context until you read Dominic's writeup if you happen to have some knowledge of the past. So why is it that Dominic's cloak blocks informational resonances, even beyond the way Superiors normally do? Is it because Judgement cannot be judged? The idea that Dominic believes himself above his own word is kind of scary. Does he especially need to hide his feelings, relationships of code of honor for some reason? Even in extended writings, it is mentioned that Dominic isn't the way he used to be. He was deceived, betrayed...and he felt disloyalty in his own Heart for a few moments when Lucifer made hin the Offer. This is I think a lightened version of how many issue he has from the original concept. So don't just assume it's a problem with authority. Myself, I don't trust anyone who looks like Ningauble, but that's another matter entirely. If you're going to go picking Archangels who might Fall, it's nice to pick about half of them. It keeps the players wondering. And as David Edelstein noted, you do get the impression that many of these celestials are crazy or otherwise dysfunctional for a reason. It's just not the right reason, if you follow the later course of the game. The only reason, I think, that the Dominic Falling discussion has been done to death is that people argue over it. Someone posts "What if Gabriel fell..." or "What if Novalis fell..." and there's some discussion. But immediately, people start flaming (as you did!) the motivations of both sides when it's Dominic. Myself, I sometimes wonder if we need in_nomine_dark-l just to keep this kind of thing from happening... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:02:08 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) At 10:06 AM -0600 10/30/99, Ben Glickler wrote: > > I know what BalDom is but what I don't get is the basis for it. > >People read the Dominic write-up and go, "Eww! What a mean angel! He's not >cool like Michael and Laurance, and he's mean, too! And how can anyone be >so mean to a cool-looking angel with blood splattered on him! And why do >you need some jerk poking his nose into the business of angels!? After all, >we're a psuedo-libertarian generation-X crowd, we play these angels, we >don't need some jerk telling us how to do our thing!" Speaking as a player, I've never felt a description in a book told me anything. That's crazy talk. > > >"Woah... wait... he has a big grey robe on. And look at those EYES. EVIL >EYES. RED EYES. BAD." > >"He's gotta be a BALSERAPH. Or a Republican, at the very least!" Um. This is really uncalled for. For the first, Dominic and his Inquisition's been designed from day one to be 'hot ticket.' He's the symbol of Heaven's Secret Police. The symbol that Heaven Ain't What You Expect. His angels have abilities that put them in conflict with their own choirs -- Cherubim who hurt their attuned. Mercurians who can kill humans. And while I agree he's far more likely perfectly angelic and simply desperate to rectify an error he has seen in himself, he does it in a way that inflames most other Superiors. In Judgement, he has cast judgement on his fellows. Gabriel's persecution led to her insanity, with good help of Beliel. Dominic has been wrong before (despite being a Seraph) and has refused to learn from his mistakes. This is suspicious, and therefore people have speculated. That's no reason for you to insult the players and speculators. Or, for that matter, make assumptions about their and our political alignments. You want to disagree with the speculation, go for it. But if you want to be insulting about it, do it somewhere else. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:30:00 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) From: The Alien > So why is it that Dominic's cloak blocks informational resonances, > even beyond the way Superiors normally do? Is it because Judgement > cannot be judged? The idea that Dominic believes himself above his own > word is kind of scary i don't see why. gabriel isn't going to get set on fire anytime soon liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:37:14 -0500 (CDT) From: paranial@creighton.edu Subject: Re: IN> Polite Address of Princesses (Re: Wadim) On Sat, 30 Oct 1999, Liam wrote: > From: Steel Angel > > > > Well, that holds true for -any- Superior, even Novalis. I can't > imagine > > how Novalis would react is some demon started some really vicious > > name-calling. > > ask him nicely to stop, and if he didn't, turn his head into a petunia for > an hour or so > > > liam > > And if that doesn't work. Do what Michael does scatter his forces to the Four Winds with a thought. Bradley Paranial Mercurian Vassal of War ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:40:55 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Polite Address of Princesses From: > And if that doesn't work. Do what Michael does scatter his forces > to the Four Winds with a thought. nah, novy would never do that. maybe turn 'em into a tree for a few centuries so they can ponder on their rudeness, though liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:45:20 -0400 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) At 6:30 PM +0100 10/30/99, Liam wrote: >From: The Alien > > > So why is it that Dominic's cloak blocks informational resonances, > > even beyond the way Superiors normally do? Is it because Judgement > > cannot be judged? The idea that Dominic believes himself above his own > > word is kind of scary > >i don't see why. gabriel isn't going to get set on fire anytime soon Actually, she often appears in a "fire" Numinous Corpus, so really yes she is.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:58:16 -0600 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) > Let me continue to stress that one reason so many people draw this > conclusion is because Dominic was SUPPOSED to generate this response > originally. It's doubly easy to still see it in context until you read > Dominic's writeup if you happen to have some knowledge of the past. I really like the little things the game mentions, the things that add insight into the overall image. Dominic's Mercuriens can harm humans, for example, but the punishment *must* fit the crime. That's interesting. It tells you their boss approves of their passing judgement, but he's also fair, and doesn't want them to go overboard. Ever. The little thing I always note that boggles me is Baal's Mercuriens, who can kill humans if the fight is fair. I like it a lot -- even though it makes Baal a "good" guy who's fighting for a "bad" cause, the stereotypical general who felt betrayed and knows he's doing the wrong thing for all the right reason. Little things like that. (I'd say Baal is the Demon Prince most likely to Redeem. Can anyone else see Baal and Michael, the armies of God and Hell arrayed behind them, striding out to the center of the battlefield to fight... and then embracing. Baal turns around, raises his sword, and his armies under his commands suddenly switch sides. Yves would approve.) > So why is it that Dominic's cloak blocks informational resonances, > even beyond the way Superiors normally do? Is it because Judgement > cannot be judged? The idea that Dominic believes himself above his own > word is kind of scary. Does he especially need to hide his feelings, > relationships of code of honor for some reason? Nice cloak. Very Old-Testamenty. That flavour of Judgement is harsh and decisive, and you can't comprehend or question it -- maybe that's what it represents. Who knows? Maybe the doubt he felt in his heart scares him, because he knows he'd frap an angel in an instant for doubting so, so he hides it so no-one can ever, ever see it. Poor guy. On a lighter note, when I mentioned the Balseraph theory to one of my players who was dragooned into working for Dominic (punishment for stepping out of line), he half-jokingly said he was gonna rip the cloak off the next time we played. > Edelstein noted, you do get the impression that many of these celestials > are crazy or otherwise dysfunctional for a reason. They move in mysterious ways that we, humans, see as nutso, but they, celestials, see as a natural course of events? A concept will always be crazy when made flesh. It is a little disturbing that the Demon Princes seem far more sane than the Archangels. Perhaps that's because their concepts tend to be far less all-encompassing, so they are more human. Maybe that's why they appear to be winning the war. Heaven, for its part, has Seraphs and Malakim guiding the war, so is deeply and darkly out of touch. They even openly persecute the best of their Mercuriens (Eli). > discussion. But immediately, people start flaming (as you did!) the > motivations of both sides when it's Dominic. Whupsie. My apologies. No flaming intended. I'll suppress my inner Kobal in the future. > Sean Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:59:50 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) From: Whistling in the Dark > Actually, she often appears in a "fire" Numinous Corpus, so really > yes she is.... i meant she wasn't going to get _burnt_ anytime soon liam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:06:25 +0100 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) From: Ben Glickler > The little thing I always note that boggles me is Baal's Mercuriens i know baal's mercurians would certainly boggle *me* :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:13:07 -0400 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) At 11:58 AM 10/30/99 -0600, you wrote: >> Let me continue to stress that one reason so many people draw this >> conclusion is because Dominic was SUPPOSED to generate this response >> originally. It's doubly easy to still see it in context until you read >> Dominic's writeup if you happen to have some knowledge of the past. > >I really like the little things the game mentions, the things that add >insight into the overall image. Dominic's Mercuriens can harm humans, for >example, but the punishment *must* fit the crime. That's interesting. It >tells you their boss approves of their passing judgement, but he's also >fair, and doesn't want them to go overboard. Ever. > >The little thing I always note that boggles me is Baal's Mercuriens, who can >kill humans if the fight is fair. I like it a lot -- even though it makes >Baal a "good" guy who's fighting for a "bad" cause, the stereotypical >general who felt betrayed and knows he's doing the wrong thing for all the >right reason. Little things like that. (I'd say Baal is the Demon Prince >most likely to Redeem. Can anyone else see Baal and Michael, the armies of >God and Hell arrayed behind them, striding out to the center of the >battlefield to fight... and then embracing. Baal turns around, raises his >sword, and his armies under his commands suddenly switch sides. Yves would >approve.) I can't quite see that. I can see baal turn around and stand by michael and then see michael trun around and face Baal though. Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1383 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.