From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Nov 2 10:09:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06258 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:09:17 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA05919 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:08:23 -0600 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:08:23 -0600 Message-Id: <199911021608.KAA05919@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1388 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, November 2 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1388 In this digest: Re: IN> Dominic Good/Bad? (Same song, second verse...) Re: IN> adam and co Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb Re: IN> adam and co Re: IN> Candidates for a Fall Re: IN> Gabriel & Dominic IN> lilith and freedom Re: IN> adam and co Re: IN> Candidates for a Fall Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) IN> 7 deadlies Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb Re: IN> Dominic Good/Bad? Re: IN> Re: What Celestials Bring to Earth Re: IN> Dominic Discussion (Re: Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> lilith and freedom IN> Seven Deadlies Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Dominic Discussion (Re: Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Seven Deadlies Re: IN> Falling Archangels (Yves) Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Re: IN> Seven Deadlies Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb Re: IN> Falling Archangels (Yves) Re: IN> Falling Archangels (Yves) Re: IN> Seven Deadlies Re: IN> Falling Archangels (Yves) Re: IN> Seven Deadlies Re: IN> Dominic Good/Bad? Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb IN> Can't Spell S_ccess Without You ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:47:52 EST From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Dominic Good/Bad? (Same song, second verse...) I think part of what makes Dominic such an interesting Archangel is that he can be played both ways. Either he can be played in a very harsh manner, he can be played as a good guy, or (my personal favorite) he can be played as both. It also gives his servitors choices on which way they want to go. IMO, more choices = more interesting = better. The way Lilith is written gives the GM the option of playing her in a variety of ways too. I can't say the same thing about, say, David, Andrealpheus, or Haagenti (as written for the latter two, though Superiors 2 may change my mind). With this in mind, I tend to be more pro-Dominic. Though, his ascention to superior status could all have been a long-ranging plot by Malphas...nah, that's a bit too out there. S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:47:51 EST From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> adam and co << alternately, a few descendents of a&e could have other, special powers. perhaps something like the children of the grigori >> Actually, I see Adam and Eve's descendants as completely normal humans. I take the view that by eating the Fruit caused them to give up whatever special abilities they had or could have developed. Lilith didn't, so she could do celestial things, like get a Word and make lilim. Just my non-canon view, S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 21:18:13 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb >From: Michael Martin >she's too cool to be demonic. That's a contradiction in terms, if you think about it. The Demon Princes seem far more cool than the archangels (IMO). jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:44:13 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> adam and co Prodigal wrote: > The latter would scan more closely with the translations of Genesis I've > read, with God inflicting the ability to get pregnant upon Eve as part of > punishing her and Adam for eating the forbidden fruit. *waits for Archangel Beth to comment on -this- one* - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 20:38:55 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Candidates for a Fall Amo Nympham wrote: > man...I'm not sure if I've ever seen this much nitpicking essence potential > in one post. how about all references to Angelic Superiors becoming > Renegades get changed to Outcasts? Pick, pick, pick. Remind me to possess your accountant sometime. Anyway, easily changed. What did you think of the -content-? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 00:52:36 -0500 From: Ehrbar Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel & Dominic > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:39:58 -0400 > From: Elizabeth McCoy > Subject: IN> Gabriel & Dominic (Re: Nicole Fluff) > > Also note that there are a few more tweaks, which are in the forthcoming... > O:> (Mostly that Gabriel apparently jumped the gun, and that there > were _discrepencies_ in the Koran Yves had, and the one that the > humans had, and no one was saying where they crept in or why. And > when invited (well, ordered) to explain, Gabriel picked up his marbles > in a huff and left.) And to put this in RL persepctive -- early copies of the Koran recently discovered by a German researcher have discrepancies from the current accepted text. This is now the center of significant controversy, since it creates the possibility that the Koran of today has changed since its original formulation. Not that the IN version of the genesis of Islam matches the orthodox Muslim view anyway... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 00:09:16 CST From: "jonh smith" Subject: IN> lilith and freedom I think that liliths word more embodies existentialist freedom. If it was just freedom from gods plan, she would probobly destroy any of her daughters that choose to redeem. also, her word, as it has been pointed out before, isn't inherently demonic. Liberty has limits, but freedom is always total and complete. No one can stop it or take it away. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 21:53:23 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> adam and co >From: Steel Angel >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Prodigal wrote: > > > The latter would scan more closely with the translations of Genesis I've > > read, with God inflicting the ability to get pregnant upon Eve as part >of > > punishing her and Adam for eating the forbidden fruit. > > *waits for Archangel Beth to comment on -this- one* I think it's usually supposed to refer to labour pains. But that'd be quite interesting. If Adam, Eve & Lilith had originally all been designed not to have children (maybe that would have messed up the experiment). No wonder Lilith hates human brats. She cannot ever have any, even with the Song of Fruition -- God's Law prevents it. And that's what Lucifer tempted her with in the end; he promised her that she could have daughters of her own... jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:00:01 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Candidates for a Fall Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 3:10 AM -0800 11/2/99, Steel Angel wrote: > > >Jean: Extremely unlikely.[...] Subject would also experience near total > >loss of research facility and data. > > But can't you just see the fire-works inherent in the concept of a > hostile takeover of Tartarus! ("Wordless stick-in-the-mud!" "Feckless > upstart!" *ZAP*BLAM*BOOM*RAT-TAT-TAT-TAT*ZAP*ZAP*ZAP*) Very Battlestar Galactica. *Chromed-up Djinn comes marching in* Synth-voices "Commander, the rebel forces have breached the perimeter." Vapula/Imperious Leader: "Send out three squadrons to deal with the interlopers." Djinn: "By your command." > > (I never have been able to figure out if Lucifer would offer a Fallen > Jean the Word of Electricity, or Storms... I think perhaps the latter, > which might actually be more scary.) Vapula might dislike electricity, he's too dependant on it. Does this mean...ooo...Primal nastiness for the new Habbalite. Raining down the power of God upon the wicked, cleansing them in a flood of power and violence...it has possibilities. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 20:37:13 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Pride is what lets a man withstand unimaginable torment and not yield > to his Fate. Note that this is not a political endorsement, but > let's use the example of John McCain's POW experience. This is a man > whose limbs were broken for *years.* Who was hung for hours from > these broken limbs. All because he refused to be released by his > captors -- the easiest thing in the world. But it would have > demoralized others (McCain was the son of an Admiral -- the Viet Cong > wanted to release him to make it seem like privileged children of the > elite got special treatment) and would have served the purposes of > his enemy. McCain was too proud, in himself, his family and his > country, to let them succeed. And he won that private war. Okay, let's say this is a semantics issue. What the Sin should be is - -Hubris-. Does that take the inconsistancies out of it? We're just looking at an example of translation problems. Like Jonah and the Whal. In the original, it was more like "big fish" and a whale was the largest "fish" the early translators could think of. So I -still- stand by my 'No redeeming qualities in the & Deadlies' line. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 01:25:24 -0500 From: Ehrbar Subject: Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:16:20 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb >>This brings up something else I've wondered about. Lilith, while an >>interesting and intriguing character, has never struck me as particularly >>"cool". She tends to get white washed alot on the list. Her word sounds nice >>but its application isn't. Its always struck me as something closer to >>anarchy than freedom. >That's heavinly propaganda. Really? Remember Invocation Modifier +6: Overthrowing a government -- any government. That includes destroying a constitutional minarchist libertarian democractic republic... And remember Invocation modifier +5 -- A human prisioner set free. Not a "political prisoner", not an unfairly imprisoned man -- any prisoner, for any reason. Freeing Pol Pot or Rudolf Hess would have given the invoker a +5. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 16:41:33 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) This brings the question does Novalis do anything wrong? She dresses funny, she is informal, and she wants to help demons to redeem. But are these things actually wrong? I wish to enquire in exactly what manner are hawwiian shirts blasphemous? Azrael > I still think Gabriel was this --><-- close to snapping. An Archangel > ought > to have a bit more mental strength than that, and more -faith-. I mean, > Michael > got pardoned, he stood there and took it like an Archangel and he came through > allright. Gabriel wasn't willing to let the investigation run, she snapped and > fled. I'll bet if Dominic investigated Novalis she'd act more properly. > Despite > really liking Dominic, I find it easy to -respect- Novalis (the other really > overtly female Archangel) in a way Gabriel doesn't lend herself to. However, I > still say Laurence isn't quite up to snuff for the War. Ah well... > > Oncemore, Daniel Metzger: Malakite of Judgement > (don't worry, Abracax should be back soon ;) ) > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 01:43:02 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> 7 deadlies > Okay, let's say this is a semantics issue. What the Sin should be is >-Hubris-. Does that take the inconsistancies out of it? We're just looking >at an example of translation problems. Like Jonah and the Whal. In the >original, it was more like "big fish" and a whale was the largest "fish" the >early translators could think of. So I -still- stand by my 'No redeeming >qualities in the & Deadlies' line. Naw. See, problem is, in traditional Christian theology the deadly sins are all perversions of virtues or other positive characteristics. So they all *do* have positive characteristics. Frex, pride is good when it's pride in serving God well; wrath is good when directed against evil; even gluttony is just a perversion of joy (viz., taking physical joy in God's world). Traditional Christianity would say that it _must_ be this way, because evil is a perversion of good... not a postive force in itself. So, it's possible to have things that are purely good, but nothing can be "all" evil... if nothing else, it must have some positive characteristics in order to accomplish anything. Or, as Burke put it: "The wickedest man is not the man of many vices, but rather the man of one vice and many virtues, with the virtues in service to the vice." Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 17:03:33 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) > You're kidding. I've found the Judgement Attunements to be -stunningly- > useful for the -job- of Judgement. The Cherub, Ofanite, Elohite, and Malakite > Resonances are fonts of information, and the local laws help > with one of his Rites. And 7 points of damage...a round...until caller or > target is dead. Average badass Calabite will go down in 7-8 rounds. > well I never made the connection to his rites...oops. In my experience average badass Calabite will take you down, as they can hurt you better. > > Dom took his own intrests above the word of God, who told Gaby to begin the > Islamic faith, > > Dom goes: "Not Christanity, Not Catholic, I DONT LIKE IT!! What to do... I > Know! Abuse my position of Power and persectute/prosectue her for it. Good > PLan!! > > Real short. Gabriel is -still- nuts. I thought Gabriel went nuts because of the inquisition. > > Which also > > gives rise to the question are the Seven Deadly Sins even relevent to the IN > world? After all selfishness, > > not sins lead to Fate. Many of the Sins are not really bad. Many can be > good things, however they can go bad, which are the aspects that the Princes > concerntrate upon. Dom's prosecution of Michael could have > > been without true purpose, coming only from his Pre-occupation with > Catholicism, God himself said that Michael's Pride was good. > > The Seven Deadlies not bad? Lust (lust, not love, lust. Pure need just > because you want). -Gluttony-, there's no redeeming values there. Wrath - > senseless, undirected rage. -Sloth-. Sheer laziness because you > don't wanna work. No redeeming values there, either. Envy...you want -just- > because someone else has, and you hate them for it. Greed, same as lust...you > just want to hoard and lord it over others. And Pride...see > above. > Frankly, I can't see anything good in -any- of the Seven Deadly Sins. And > as for Michael, it was -Gabriel- with the Islam thing...and God -didn't- say > Michael's Pride was good. Nowhere is that stated. What -is- > stated is that Michael was a useful weapon in the War...that's it. It also says that without pride and glory the war would have been lost, that seems pretty alright to me. Lust. Will add to a relationship of love, it can be good, but only in moderation and in conjunction with love. Wrath is not senseless and undirected by definition; the wrath of God, swift and just. Sloth. Well yeah it isn't good, but it wont nescessarily cause a fall or reach a fate. Glutt. See above. Covet. See above Envy.See above. Greed. Too much greed is a bad thing, however a little bit may produce enough drive to make some goo things happen. Pride. Too much pride is veeeerryy bad, not enough can be very bad also. I was trying to say that Dom, may have prosecuted Michael due to the fact that Pride is a Sin in Christian Religion, using my above reasoning it is noit necessarily a sin in other religions, and if Dom wasn't so big on Catholicism he may not have prosectuted Michael. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:00:57 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb >Asmodeus: I'd have said "no way," but then I read "Election Day." > and I got to thinking... The Game stands, in a sense, opposed >to Freedom. Nobody has a word opposed to Freedom in Heaven, while Dom >likes following rules, as a Seraph, he doesn't want to play with them. A >Cherub would play with the rules, though, to help someone out. Asmodeus, >if he went Cherub, might thus become the Archangel of Facilitation. (I >don't like the Word, but what constitutes play with boundaries, Bright?) The Angel of Rules? Not as part of a game, but real rules, God's rule's. Or perhaps the word of Law. >Baal: If his valor overcomes his pride, maybe. Probably not till >Armageddon, though, if ever. Long shot IMO. >Beleth: Going back to Blandine's arms? Afraid of Lucifer? Well, maybe. 'nother long shot. Insecure + self-hating + really powerful = just plain mean. >Belial: Right. What forces that were left after Redemption would >probably be blasted by Gabriel. Well, maybe not. The cruel ones would be >burned away. He'd probably lose Superior status, though. The Angel of Ashes? >Haagenti: Kobal would laugh. From Gremlin to Archangel! Cool! He'd >go Ofanite. Ofanite of Temperance? Seems unlikely. Temperance would be a redeemed Fleurity, I should think. >Instead of *getting* >more and more, he might start *doing* more and more... Ofanite of Frenzy, >perhaps. Heh heh. Of some sort of Activity, I would guess. Think of anyone who's ever gone on a successful fitness program. The former fatty transformed into a carrot-snacking, triathlon-running, buff apostle of the healthy lifestyle. Heck, maybe of Sports. Or Health, even, though that doesn't seem an Ofie Word. Fitness, perhaps. >Kobal: Everyone's favorite Demon Prince. Next to Lilith, this is the one >most people *want* to redeem. Alas, Laughter isn't that angelic much >anymore... but he may be a plant by God. After all, there is the matter >of that special task God set him... Time to reread Moore and Bolland's "Killing Joke". Yeah, I'd agree that he seems a somewhat more plausible candidate than most. >Kronos: About as likely as Yves Falling. I leave the mechanics of this >to the one who did the brilliant Fallen Yves writeup. Kinda whacks game balance; he's sort of Hell's big gun, after all. >Lilith: Everyone wants Lilith to Redeem... she's too cool to be demonic. >Well, maybe not, but it's been done to death. Even in-game. Yep. We like her 'cause she's human, and her daughters are cute and stuff. >Malphas: Unlikely at best. I agree. Literally have to turn him inside out. >Nybbas: Mercurian of Communications, like in Dark Victory. Works for me. Yeah, plausible. Bit manic, hangs with Ofanites a lot. IMO he's a kinda shallow prince and would be a kinda shallow AA. But maybe that's just me. >Saminga: If Azrael doesn't waste him, Gabriel will. Yeah, prolly. >Valefor: Assuming he isn't actually Janus, Valefor is ripe for Redemption >as it is. He's less interested in the moral effects of his thefts, and >more intereseted in performing more and more difficult thefts. Moving >from place to place, unusual sense of style for a Calabite, *doesn't* like >destroying things, thrives on being more and more Agile and Precise... >he's Ofanim material all right. I could see him becoming Archangel of >Daring, the Ofanite that is the patron of outrageous capers. Ooh, good one. Heaven's James Bond or Indy Jones. Limited life expectancy but fun while he lasted. >Vapula: He's theoretically a Habbalite, but do you see him inflicting >emotions? Do you see him *experiencing* them? Not really. Is he >punishing the weak? No! He wants *objective* knowledge that he can turn >into shiny toys. He could go Elohite and nobody would even notice. He'd have to start caring (remember, the Es do _care_, they just don't show it). What about Alaemon, Mammon, Furfur and Fleurity? Honesty, Generosity, Moderation and Temperance? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 17:15:29 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic Good/Bad? He accused Gabriel of Heresy and tried to have her exiled from heaven for her involvement in the conception of Islam. > why hasn't he got a CD of 6 (or whatever)? i don't see why seeing the > "truth" while in conversation with michael and gabriel would change his > opinion in any way. he's never accused them of lying. he's accused michael > of being proud (which is true) and gabriel of being mad (which is also > true). another point would be that choir resonances don't work that well on > superiors, presumably even if it's a superior trying to use it > > > liam > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 16:32:09 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Re: What Celestials Bring to Earth Thanx I shall > Casca wrote a great description of the Djinn mindset, which all IN GMs > should read! I have a copy at: > http://www.btinternet.com/~jhart/IN_djinn.html > > > jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 17:18:25 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic Discussion (Re: Nicole Fluff) [Mechanics of Dominic's Sword thing] > > I don't call that one useless. I call that one Demon Hamburger. I didn't know the exact mechanics I thjought you had to stand around, and the hits could be dodged etc... > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 01:53:19 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) > Like Jonah and the Whal. In the >original, it was more like "big fish" and a whale was the largest "fish" the >early translators could think of. So I -still- stand by my 'No redeeming >qualities in the & Deadlies' line. Actually, the term in the belly of a whale was actually idiomatic for in a heap of trouble. It's kind of like the term losing my religion. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 22:50:07 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> lilith and freedom jonh smith wrote: > I think that liliths word more embodies existentialist freedom. If it was > just freedom from gods plan, she would probobly destroy any of her daughters > that choose to redeem. also, her word, as it has been pointed out before, > isn't inherently demonic. Liberty has limits, but freedom is always total > and complete. No one can stop it or take it away. Yep, that's why she works for Lucifer. Yep...totally free, just like her daughters. True Freedom has no strings like a Geas-hook or a 'favour' you -must- repay. That sounds more like a -bargain- than a favour. I always thought Lil's Word ran more like 'Freedom as long as you're the biggest'. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:20:24 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Seven Deadlies >> Frankly, I can't see anything good in -any- of the Seven Deadly >>Sins. And >> as for Michael, it was -Gabriel- with the Islam thing...and God -didn't- say >> Michael's Pride was good. Nowhere is that stated. What -is- >> stated is that Michael was a useful weapon in the War...that's it. > >It also says that without pride and glory the war would have been lost, >that seems pretty alright to me. Point. >Lust. Will add to a relationship of love, it can be good, but only in >>moderation and in conjunction with love. Also an important motivator, one that can lead humans to good as well as evil. If there were no pretty girls in the world, I doubt I'd comb my hair nearly as much. >Sloth. Well yeah it isn't good, but it wont nescessarily cause a fall or >reach a fate. Perversion of the virtues of rest and thoughtfulness, and like all perversions it overlaps with the original sometimes. "Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits." Keep in mind that sloth is one of the great mothers of invention. It's not just the remote control for the TV. I'm sure it was a lazy guy who figured out that flint chopped things better if you tied it to a stick first. A world without sloth would probably be a world without vacuum cleaners, blenders, or self-cleaning cat litter boxes. >Glutt. See above. Another powerful motivator. Gotta get the complete run of Neil Gaiman Sandmans. If it means working extra hours at the comics store, hey, whatever it takes. Also the parent of a lot of beautiful human inventions. A world without gluttony is a world without cremes brulees, green onion flavored potato chips, and Haagen-Dasz. >Envy.See above. Very huge motivating factor. A world without envy is a world with no BMWs, breast implants, or 21-inch monitors. Etcetera and so forth. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 23:53:19 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) Azrael wrote: > This brings the question does Novalis do anything wrong? > She dresses funny, she is informal, and she wants to help demons to redeem. > But are these things actually wrong? > I wish to enquire in exactly what manner are hawwiian shirts blasphemous? It's her soft-line approach. She'll consort with the Enemy. She'd talk to Lucifer before trying to smite him or calling the cavalry in. Sometimes, for the War's sake, it's best to just knock the count of your enemies down. Some demons will - -never- redeem, and Novalis wastes time on them, even when it's clear. That and her informal nature (too informal for her rank) might encourage her Servitors to be lax about matters. That, to me, is Judgement's view on her. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 23:57:09 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Dominic Discussion (Re: Nicole Fluff) Azrael wrote: > [Mechanics of Dominic's Sword thing] > > > > I don't call that one useless. I call that one Demon Hamburger. > > I didn't know the exact mechanics I thjought you had to stand around, and the hits could be dodged etc... Nope, I'd say the younger Judgies would call it the Terrible Swift Sword . Look at the essence cost, it's expensive to use, but it just flies to the fore and hews the murdering sucker down. Now -that's- Judgement. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 99 18:00:33 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Seven Deadlies > > >Lust. Will add to a relationship of love, it can be good, but only in > >>moderation and in conjunction with love. > > Also an important motivator, one that can lead humans to good as well as > evil. If there were no pretty girls in the world, I doubt I'd comb my hair > nearly as much. > Or wear deoderant or shave or shower or express any romantic seniment or ever go to see some dodgy chick flik. Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 01:06:20 -0800 (PST) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> Falling Archangels (Yves) On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > Now *that* makes sense to me. > > [Alaemon] Mmm... library.... > Wait, doesn't that imply Alaemon is Haagenti? Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 01:07:56 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Douglas Muir wrote: [Asmodeus as a Cherub -- the Bright Game] > The Angel of Rules? Not as part of a game, but real rules, God's rule's. > Or perhaps the word of Law. Maybe... but those don't seem too Cherubic. I sort of wanted him to stop obsessing about the Rules of the Game and start caring about the Players, *maybe* bending them a little so that the Players have a better time of it. I can see him working closely with Marc, and being on pretty good terms with Dom (still -- but those "mere philosophical differences" should still remain). It strikes me now that "the Game" isn't all that dark a word. The word of Play has been taken by a servitor of Christopher IIRC, and is targeting Child's Play. Bright Asmodeus could take on the more adult functions of the word -- and be the Archangel of the Infinite Game. > Temperance would be a redeemed Fleurity, I should think. I'd give it to Furfur (see below) > Heck, maybe of Sports. Or Health, even, though that doesn't seem an Ofie > Word. Fitness, perhaps. I like Fitness. It's brighter than Frenzy. If he didn't make AA, he'd end up under David, I'd think. > IMO he's a kinda shallow prince and would be a kinda shallow AA. But maybe > that's just me. He'd get along with both David *and* Novalis, though... how many angels can say *that*? > >Vapula: He's theoretically a Habbalite, but do you see him inflicting > >emotions? Do you see him *experiencing* them? Not really. Is he > >punishing the weak? No! He wants *objective* knowledge that he can turn > >into shiny toys. He could go Elohite and nobody would even notice. > > He'd have to start caring (remember, the Es do _care_, they just don't show > it). > > What about Alaemon, Mammon, Furfur and Fleurity? Honesty, Generosity, > Moderation and Temperance? "Temperance" and "Moderation" are basically synonymous -- I'd give it to Furfur, as the reverse of Hardcoredom. On the other hand, maybe he'd be better as the Angel of Passion. Honesty and Generosity for Alaemon and Mammon I'll buy (though maybe "Charity" instead, make it an "official" virtue). Drugs can have its own Bright nature, though -- Medicine? -- Michael Martin Be kind of random and beautifully senseless. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 01:07:21 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> (Nicole Fluff) >From: Steel Angel >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Azrael wrote: > > > This brings the question does Novalis do anything wrong? > > She dresses funny, she is informal, and she wants to help demons to >redeem. > > But are these things actually wrong? > > I wish to enquire in exactly what manner are hawwiian shirts >blasphemous? > > It's her soft-line approach I think it's partly personal. "Not behaving in a manner fitting to a Leader of the Host" seems to be one of Dominic's heresy-buttons -- after all, he's suspicious of Eli and Janus too. After all, does the bible say anything about God wearing Hawaiian shirts? No! It talks a lot about smiting the unbeliever and that people should love each other. Not a smidgeon about dressing like a zany. Case proved. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 02:29:05 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Seven Deadlies Douglas Muir wrote: > >Glutt. See above. > > Another powerful motivator. Gotta get the complete run of Neil Gaiman > Sandmans. If it means working extra hours at the comics store, hey, > whatever it takes. > > Also the parent of a lot of beautiful human inventions. A world without > gluttony is a world without cremes brulees, green onion flavored potato > chips, and Haagen-Dasz. Oh...my... Look at that name. Haagen-Dasz...it's all -so- clear now... Haagenti!!! Makes you think... - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 12:43:56 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb From: Michael Martin > Beleth: Going back to Blandine's arms? Afraid of Lucifer? Well, maybe. > Other than locking Hell out of the Marches, no effect on the war. We > humans sleep a *lot* better. i'd say that in itself would have a major impact on the war liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:03:56 -0500 From: "Chris Bergstresser" Subject: Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb - ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Martin > It strikes me now that "the Game" isn't all that dark a word. It's about as dark as "Judgement" is bright -- they're both kind of gray. After all, they are the only two Superiors to fight the opposing side by policing their own ranks. > > Temperance would be a redeemed Fleurity, I should think. > > I'd give it to Furfur (see below) No -- as has been stated before, your fallen word isn't the opposite of your angelic word, it's a perversion of it. Thus, Fleurity fits "Temperance" better than Furfur. I like the word of "Zeal" for Bright Furfur, personally, but that's just me. - -- Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:42:36 -0500 From: NKrishnaswami@cswv.com Subject: Re: IN> Falling Archangels (Yves) Ben Glickler wrote: > >Yves >Demon Prince of Secrets > >"The world has secrets, and I know them all." > >Yves is as he was -- calm, quiet, assured, and always polite. His secure >demeanor, an island in a Hell of insecurities and hatefulness, is as >unnerving as anything Asmodeus or Kronos could conjure up. And he still >knows. The thing is, he isn't telling. This is Officially Cool(tm). So why did your Yves fall? Dark Yves IMC was the Demon Prince of Chance. When he Fell he decided that anyone whose Fate or Destiny hung on a tiny little thing really didn't deserve Heaven. He and Kronos got along very well -- Kronos created situations that with an inevitable logic that led people their Fates, and Yves whipped up the tiny and absurd little coincidences that prevented people from realizing their true spiritual position. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 05:54:08 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Falling Archangels (Yves) >Ben Glickler wrote: > > >His secure > >demeanor, an island in a Hell of insecurities and hatefulness, is as > >unnerving as anything Asmodeus or Kronos could conjure up This is pretty much how Kronos is described. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:12:20 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Seven Deadlies From: Douglas Muir > Very huge motivating factor. A world without envy is a world with no BMWs, > breast implants, or 21-inch monitors. i can see all three of those being demonic inventions, though liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:01:55 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Falling Archangels (Yves) At 1:06 AM -0800 11/2/99, The Alien wrote: >On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > > > > Now *that* makes sense to me. > > > > [Alaemon] Mmm... library.... > > > > > Wait, doesn't that imply Alaemon is Haagenti? [Haagenti] Mmm... secrets... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:43:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Seven Deadlies > Lust. Will add to a relationship of love, it can be good, but only in > moderation and in conjunction with love. I think this confuses the sin of lust with the feeling of sexual desire. Sexual desire is a good thing in itself, as any servitor of Eli will tell you; lust is when one allows sexual desire to override more important things, like consideration for the object of desire, e.g.: > If there were no pretty girls in the world, I doubt I'd comb my hair > nearly as much. Do you comb your hair just to better your chances of getting accepted by the pretty girl, or in order to make the encounter pleasanter for her, too? The one motive is just pragmatic self- interest; the other has elements of selflessness in it. > A world without sloth would probably be a world without vacuum > cleaners, blenders, or self-cleaning cat litter boxes. Once again, it's not the desire for rest that's bad; it's letting that desire get out of check. A world without the desire to rest would die of exhaustion. A world without *sloth* would be one where everyone willingly did any job they saw they ought to do. I once made up a chart of virtues and vices in quartets. Each virtue had a vice that OPPOSED it and another vice that was its CORRPUTION. Each virtue also had a companion virtue that was its complement. Sloth was a member of the following quartet: Zeal Sloth Peace Wrath Zeal is the virtue opposed to Sloth. Sloth is the corruption of Peace. Peace is the virtue opposed to Wrath. Wrath is the corruption of Zeal. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:15:29 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic Good/Bad? From: Azrael > He accused Gabriel of Heresy and tried to have her exiled from heaven > for her involvement in the conception of Islam. that was his excuse. i think he was basically trying to put her on trial for her worthiness to be a superior. same way as he used michael's vainglory to attack his role. presumably dominic was quite satisfied with that one - god acquitted him. i haven't seen any mention of dominic holding any grudges (unlike mike), i expect as far as he's concerned the matter's over with. plus michael stepped down as the leader of heaven's armies, allowing the much more relaible uriel to take his place liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:53:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Candidates for a Climb Michael Martin wrote: > Asmodeus: (I don't like the Word, but what constitutes play with > boundaries, Bright?) How about Mysterious Ways (as in "The Lord works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform")? Here are some more Word suggestions: Baal: Archangel of Valor Beleth: Archangel of Omens (She is still the angel of fear, but now she sends warnings in dreams, and cautionary premonitions.) Belial: Angel of Purging, servitor of Gabriel (yeah, right) Or, just possibly, Archangel of Zeal. Haagenti: Archangel of Plenty Malphas: Angel of the Loyal Opposition, peculiar servitor of David Saminga: Angel of Compost, servitor of Novalis Valefor: Archangel of Mischief ("Confusion to the Enemy!") Though Daring was good, too; that way, Valefor and Baal could devide the concept of courage between them. As someone else said, Vapula could keep Technology, if Jean was willing to renegotiate Word boundaries. Bright Lilith would, I think, be Archangel of Liberty, a suggestion I've seen elsewhere. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 06:08:41 From: Subject: IN> Can't Spell S_ccess Without You I DISCOVERED A BUSINESS THAT PROVIDES A 5 FIGURE INCOME WITHIN THE VERY 1ST MONTH. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO NET $1000 YOUR 1ST WEEK, AND OVER $10,000 YOUR 1ST MONTH? MAKING MONEY FROM YOUR HOME WILL NEVER BE EASIER THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO SELLING YOU WILL NEVER TOUCH THE TELEPHONE THERE IS NO LARGE INVESTMENT JUST A CONSISTENT WEEKLY PAY CHECK ANYONE CAN DO THIS BUSINESS & I MEAN ANYONE. BUT DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT CALL TOLL FREE 1-800-811-2141 ID #55373 ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1388 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.