From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Nov 10 10:00:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11926 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:00:57 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA19711 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:59:37 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:59:37 -0600 Message-Id: <199911101559.JAA19711@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1402 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, November 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1402 In this digest: Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim Re: IN> Fear...for your fear will keep you ready Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Cry Havoc! Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim Re: IN> Cry Havoc! Re: IN> Writeups Re: IN> Destiny? Re: IN> Writeups Re: IN> When Creation goes out of control! Re: IN> Cry Havoc! IN> Writeups ... (sorry) Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim IN> [ADMIN] Getting rid of MIME/HTML IN> Cry Havoc! Re: IN> Cry Havoc! Re: IN> God is Love Re: IN> Vessels Re: IN> Cry Havoc! Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism Re: IN> God is Love Re: IN> God is Love IN> heresy Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim Re: IN> Cry Havoc! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 17:00:49 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim I can't see why not. Of course any really old bruiser should be able to go Trauma? I don't even know themeaning of the word. - ---------- > Here's a cheery thought: I gather that Malakim are immune to > Trauma simply because they've been through it so much, they've > built up a resistance, not because of any resistance built into > their design to start with. In that case, couldn't Baal, say, > develop a battle-hardened cadre of, say, Calabim who are immune > to Trauma for the same reason? > > (A Trauma-immune Mercurian has probably acquired the Masochism > Discord by the time it gets the immunity...) > > Earl > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:59:21 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Fear...for your fear will keep you ready > >>Beleth, Archangel of Fear >> >>The redemption of Beleth started with an argument between the Nightmare > >>Princess and Saminga. > >[snip] >would such a small argument really be enough to get Saminga to raise an army >against Beleth? and what of Beleth's defenses. She had the home ground >advantage, not to mention she could probably gather up some Ethereal help. >I don't think Saminga would have easily crushed her in her own tower, and i >don't think she would have just run. My intention was that the argument started over this but escalated into far more. Beleth and Saminga already don't get along and this was just the camel's back breaking straw. Also I tried to imply that the fact that none of those allied or associated to her came to her aid as part of the reason for running. Also I figured she wasn't so much running away as fleeing to what she thought was familiar enough ground > >> >>DISSONANCE >>Beleth's angels work to promote fear and heal it rather than deny it. It >>is therefore dissonant for any servitor of Beleth to take action to make >>someone no longer have to deal with their fears. > > >this seems rather vague or perhaps i'm not reading it correctly. could you >please explain some more, perhaps with an example? > I think I would actually add in allow through inaction to this condition for more actual limiting. Thus an angel cannot help an acrophobic down from a high place nor can they let them leave the top of the building without at least once looking over the edge. Ben BTW goats rocks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 17:04:37 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? Says they do in the book. Those who achieve their Destiny get a ticket to Heaven. Those who get their fates go to Hell. Those who don't achieve either or achieve both, get reborn to try again. Azrael - ---------- > > Does hne go to heaven? > > Do people who achieve their Fates necessarily go to Hell, and do those who > achieve their Destinies necessarily go to Heaven? If someone has a fairly > lackluster Destiny, or a fairly harmless Fate, they won't be all that > good/evil. > > > Don't ask how he found out, that isn't important. Perhaps he was in a > library during > > a storm, accidentally stumbled across the Book of All Knowledge (which > Yves had put > > down and can't remember where) and read it. > > > > Azrael > > Ben > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 02:00:58 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Cry Havoc! At 8:52 PM -0800 11/10/99, Steel Angel wrote: >The Alien wrote: > > > Oddly, Laurence is on very good terms with Dominic, who is > > unquestionably the angel most aware of how fallible angels are. > > Laurence is also a Malakite...he can't Fall. IIRC, though, Laurence has never been Dissonant. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 17:11:38 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim INpg101: " Second most, Malakim will never surrender in a fight, nor will they allow themselves to be captured by the armies of Lucifer. Surrendering to hell would dishonour Heaven. Death is preferable. Most Malakim are used to corporeal death. They've lived through it hundreseds of times, and are unaffected by its Trauma" So bearing the nature of Traum in mind, Malakim don't get Trauma 'cos they're used to dyin' and thus don't findit Traumatic. So it isn't because of any special thingee in their make up. When other than their vows which are the reasons they die so much. Azrael "RAGE!" - ---------- > >From the FAQ... > > > So I know Malakim don't usually get trauma when their > vessels are destroyed, seeing as how they're so used to it....but > what about brand-new Malakim? > It doesn't say, specifically, in the book that the reason they are > immune to trauma is because they suffered it so many times. It > just says they are innured to death from having suffered it so > often. So, the trauma avoidance is part of their resonance, even > for new Malakim. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 17:17:26 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Cry Havoc! What's the difference? Azrael - ---------- > Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > > > I think it's more likely that Michael thinks that Laurence turns to > > him for help when he really doesn't need it. > > It might well be that. I still think making Laurence the master > strategist and Michael the master tactician is also a good idea. > > Earl > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 99 17:26:56 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Writeups I will. If you still need them. Tell me if you want them @ chiram@tpgi.com.au Azrael - ---------- > > I've been collecting the writeups, but forgot two. Could anyone > forward Haaganti and Novalis to me? Thanks. > > - Abracax: Shedite of Riots > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 02:21:54 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Destiny? At 10:01 PM -0800 11/9/99, Jo Hart wrote: >But it seems very wrong to me that you should have to work hard to >reach Hell. Like, if your Fate is to be a mass murderer but you >'only' manage to kill one person, I don't think you get back on the >reincarnation-roundabout. I treat it like a set of scales. People begin in balance between Selflessness and selfishness, and they begin adding weight to both sides through their life, a milligram at a time. You need to accumulate a kilogram's worth of weight *more* on one side than the other to go to Heaven or Hell. One's Destiny and one's Fate are twenty kilogram weights. If someone achieves their Destiny, it would take reaching their Fate to balance it. Vice versa applies as well, of course. If they're within the Kilogram limit, it's back to the foot of the queue, but the weights on the scale remain the same.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:29:53 +1100 From: "Chris Rose" Subject: Re: IN> Writeups This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BF2BA9.94856220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pretty sure these are the relevant files ... - -^C - ----- Original Message ----- From: Steel Angel To: Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 3:42 PM Subject: IN> Writeups > > I've been collecting the writeups, but forgot two. Could anyone > forward Haaganti and Novalis to me? Thanks. > > - Abracax: Shedite of Riots > > - ------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BF2BA9.94856220 Content-Type: text/plain; name="Re IN Novalis, Demon Princess of Corruption.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Re IN Novalis, Demon Princess of Corruption.txt" From: Tim Groth To: Subject: Re: IN> Novalis, Demon Princess of Corruption Date: Wednesday, 3 November 1999 5:22 PM >INVOCATION MODIFIER >+1 Something shameful hidden in fresh snow >+2 Something rotten >+3 A violated adult >+4 A violated child Um my bad, I had what my poetry teacher would call a braino. It should = be 'an adults violator' and a 'child's violator' respectively. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ =00 - ------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BF2BA9.94856220 Content-Type: text/plain; name="IN Novalis, Demon Princess of Corruption.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="IN Novalis, Demon Princess of Corruption.txt" From: Tim Groth To: Subject: IN> Novalis, Demon Princess of Corruption Date: Wednesday, 3 November 1999 5:12 PM NOVALIS Demon Princess of Corruption "The world is danger hidden by beauty, pain hidden by pleasure, Lucifer hidden by God." She just couldn't take it anymore. So much violence and uglines, even = in Heaven, and god didn't seem to be doing anything about it. She tried to fight it, tried to keep caring, but in the end she realized that it was = all for nothing. Lucifer had been right all along, their was no one guiding everything, God was just a beautiful lie and Lucifer was the truth of = the universe. He was well hidden, but even in the purest thing his touch = was there. She Fell, giving up ideals of peace and harmony and compasion. In Hell Lucifer met her with a knowing smile and granted her a Word and a Principality. Third holder of the Word of Corruption she embodies it = very well, sublty tainting everything she contacts. Her Corruption is not = the mindless rampaging of Legion, but more the gradual infection of a = disease. DISSONANCE Purifiing something without the promise of greater corruption resaulting later is dissonant, in addition reveiling corruption's presence without permision to do so is also dissonant. BAND ATTUNEMENTS Balseraph - --------- Liars attuned to Corruption get a bonus of their ethereal forces to Resonance rolls involing twisting arounding the meaning of their = target's morals. Djinn - ----- When attuned to someone Djinn of Corruption have a sense how corrupt the individual believes themselves to be and why. Calabim - ------- When using their Resonance subtly they get a bonus to their target = number equal to their corporeal forces. Habbalah - -------- These demons can direct the emotion they create in a victom at any = target the demon wishes. Lilim - ----- When geasing someone into a degrading act they may add their ethereal forces to the target number. Shedim - ------ Their hosts Will is effectively halved for purposes of resisting these = demons. Impudites - --------- An Impudite of Corruption can charm an individual for twice as long as = normal. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS Underlying Decay - ---------------- With this a servitor of Corruption is able to see how Corrupt something = is, not just physically but mentally and spiritually. It costs 1 Essence to activate for Perception minutes. During this time it works on = everything the demon sees. False Note - ---------- The demon can expend as much essence as they wish and generate a disturbance equal to essence spent+celestial forces. Any information = they wish that matches with the amount of essence spent can be put into the disturbance (so a total of 10 is needed to simulate a human dying). DISTINCTION Knight of Rot - ------------- The decay of inanimate objects can be accelerated ten fold by these = demons. They merely touch the item and will it to fall apart faster, as long as they remain in contact and for corporeal forces days after the object = will suffer the effects. Captain of Wasting - ------------------------ This works like the Knight distinction but on living things. It can be devistating to those who are ill. Baron of Concealment - ---------------------- These demons can hide their own corrupt state, able to appeare as their divine analogs in their celestial forms (Lilim seem Bright). This lasts only for celestial forces minutes, after that they must resume their = vessel or else let those around see them as they are. RELATIONS Hell is somewhat nervous, not just because of the Word's previous holder but because she is obviously more compitent and has a powerful Word that overlaps many other ones (if not all). Some resent the fact that she = got such a powerful Word, and others just think she's a little out of her = mind. She prefers to deal with those who understand more subtle responses to situations. Allied: Kronos, Beleth Associated: Malphas, Andrealphus Hostile: Belial Enemy: Baal BASIC RITES * Convince someone that something they held as pure actually harbors corruption. * Cause someone to believe nothing is pure (+2) * Have someone commit themselves to hell while still believing they are = not fully corrupt. CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 2 INVOCATION MODIFIER +1 Something shameful hidden in fresh snow +2 Something rotten +3 A violated adult +4 A violated child +5 An Outcast angel +6 A just Fallen Angel Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ =00 - ------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BF2BA9.94856220 Content-Type: text/plain; name="IN Enjoy it, but don't destroy it..txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="IN Enjoy it, but don't destroy it..txt" From: Michael Martin To: Subject: IN> Enjoy it, but don't destroy it. Date: Monday, 8 November 1999 8:19 PM We haven't been Redeeming enough Princes. To help remedy this... HAAGENTI Archangel of Gusto "The world is full of marvelous things, and you should experience them all." Just don't stand too close, or you might suddenly be dancing with a = wheel. (Whee! Dancing!) Haagenti, even more than Belial, was the quintessential Calabite. = Belial existed only to destroy, but Haagenti embodied destruction and, more importantly, the impulse to destroy. Now he is the quintessential Ofanite, constantly on the move. Nobody really knows why Haagenti Redeemed, or how. It's assumed that Janus was the one who Redeemed him, since it was he who presented the = new Ofanite to the Seraphim Council. Actually getting Haagenti to stay = fairly still for that long was a challenge in itself; from the instant he saw Heaven, he wanted to go everywhere and do everything. This is standard behavior for an Ofanite, but Haagenti just couldn't = stop. He has always wanted everything, and his Redemption appears to have been = a realization that one could "have" everything without having it for himself. That way, everyone could have everything. It was this outlook that prompted the Seraphim Council to grant him the Word of Gusto. Shortly after this he was elevated to Archangelic = status. The effects of his leaving in Hell were surprisingly small. His demons went to work for the other Shal-Mari princes, or they turned to his old friends Nybbas and Saminga. Furfur also accepted a few of his nastier Servitors. DISSONANCE - ---------- Gusto is the enjoyment of experience, and the seeking of new experiences to enjoy. His Servitors glide through population centers, bolstering = the perception of humanity as they go. It's dissonant for these angels to = go more than three days without introducing a human to an enjoyable new experience, or a new appreciation of a common experience. (In Heaven, they travel amongst the blessed souls.) CHOIR ATTUNEMENTS - ----------------- Seraphim With the harmony of the Symphony behind them, these agents of Truth can remove the Jaded Discord or Disadvantage from their beneficiaries, = lasting for a nomber of days equal to the check digit of the angel's resonance roll. Cherubim Haagenti's Cherubim can spot those who need their help the most from = miles away. Not only do they know the direction to the closest Jaded human, = but their resonance automatically succeeds, with a check digit of 6, toward Jaded subjects! Ofanim Haagenti's Ofanim have a special Rite. They gain 1 Essence if they provoke or participate in a frenetic, exciting event enjoyed by all involved... such as spontaneous breakdancing or a freestyle skateboard competition. Elohim The Powers of Gusto can find pleasurable aspects of nearly any activity. With a successful resonance roll, they can point out some interesting facet of any task that a human is performing. This will cause the human to enjoy his task, and will grant a +1 on the check digit if the roll is successful. Malakim Haagenti's Malakim are incredible trainers. When preparing humans for = an activity that they have never done before, but find exciting, these Malakim can teach that skill as if they had it at level 6. Kyriotates When these Dominations take over a host, the host remembers what has happened. If the Kyriotate did not take dissonance from leaving, the = host will remember the whole thing as tremendously exciting. If the = Kyriotate performed any truly significant acts in the host, that host will gain a character point towards one of the skills the Kyriotate used. Mercurians The Mercurians of Gusto are the ultimate party angels. When they invoke their resonance on a human, they not only know what that human likes to do, if they get a check digit of 5 or 6, they will determine some = activity that the human would enjoy, but has never actually tried. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS - -------------------- Sense of Adventure The angel can convince a human to try out any new exciting activity. However, if this new "adventure" results in the human being seriously hurt, the angel will take a note of dissonance! DISTINCTIONS - ------------ Vassal of Gusto The angel can identify any person that is enjoying what he is doing = within 40 yards times the angel's Celestial Forces. Friend They're not Friends Of anything in particular, they're just Friends. People who are friends with these angels gain a deeper appreciation of = all their other friendships, and become more sensitive (+1 to Perception on all relevant rolls). Master of Excitement The angel can make any activity seem exciting and adventurous for 1d hours, even if it's something like alphabetizing files. RELATIONS - --------- Haagenti is new in Heaven, and because of this, Dominic doesn't trust = him yet. Laurence and David both think that he's too flighty to be a proper Archangel (though he's not as bad as Novalis) but David respects how he makes people enjoy being around each other. Eli loves him -- he = embodies that which humanity has and which he thinks the angels have lost. Haagenti returns this affection, but not quite as strongly. He also = gets along very well with the other Ofanim -- he embodies action, which is inherent in all of their natures. Novalis and Blandine both kind of = like him, since his Word reflects aspects of theirs. He's still young, and = his Redemption has left him sufficiently "innocent" that he is hostile to no one. Allied: Janus, Gabriel (Janus and Eli are Allied with him) Associated: Novalis, David, Eli (Novalis, Bladine and Gabriel are Associated with him) Hostile: none (Dominic and Laurence are hostile to him) BASIC RITES - ----------- * Be involved in an experience that lets you gain a character point. * Spend an hour having others enjoy your company. * Introduce a human to a new experience. CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 1 INVOCATION MODIFIERS +1 A travelogue +2 A recreational resort +3 A human enjoying an exciting activity +4 Ten humans enjoying an exciting activity +5 Ten humans enjoying an ordinarily dull activity +6 Some completely new experience -- Michael Martin Be kind of random and beautifully senseless. =00 - ------=_NextPart_000_013E_01BF2BA9.94856220-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:34:35 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> When Creation goes out of control! On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Steel Angel wrote: > > Michael Martin wrote: > > > ELI > > > DISSONANCE > > ---------- > > > > Servitors of Cancer receive one point of dissonance every two weeks as > > their personal symphonies change and twist under their Prince's Word. > > Okay, I got a problem with this, here. How do -any- of them survive? > > - Abracax: Shedite of Riots > Well, Eli doesn't have many Servitors still... It's a great flip to his old Dissonance Condition (with justification)... If they hire themselves out as Mercenary Tether-tenders, they can survive... Or they can rack up the Discords. Eli will probably be pretty cool about getting rid of it (he probably doesn't like it much) or Azzie might get rid of in exchange for spy information. -- Michael Martin Be kind of random and beautifully senseless. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 01:35:51 -0600 (EST) From: edg@pyramid.sjgames.com Subject: Re: IN> Cry Havoc! On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Azrael wrote: > > It might well be that. I still think making Laurence the master > > strategist and Michael the master tactician is also a good idea. > What's the difference? I think Earl might mean that Laurence is superior at orchestrating grand warfare and large-scale battles, while Michael is superior at leading small groups of people. Given their Words, I myself would switch it around, but hey. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:55:28 +1100 From: "Chris Rose" Subject: IN> Writeups ... (sorry) oops Sorry all ... (stoopid reply button ...) ^C ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 02:12:40 -0600 (EST) From: edg@pyramid.sjgames.com Subject: Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Azrael wrote: > Death is preferable. Most Malakim are used to corporeal death. They've lived through it hundreseds > of times, and are unaffected by its Trauma" > So bearing the nature of Traum in mind, Malakim don't get Trauma 'cos they're used to dyin' > and thus don't findit Traumatic. So it isn't because of any special thingee in their make up. > When other than their vows which are the reasons they die so much. Nope. Although this might make the quote a bit more readable: "Most Malakim are unfazed by corporeal death. Not only have they lived through it hundreds of times, they're also unaffected by its Trauma." I do find it odd, however, that I can't seem to find "Malakim" and "Trauma" within ten words of each other without there being a mention of how many times they've died. Hm, a thought. Shared Trauma - ------------- Malakim are the only celestials, angelic or demonic, who make ripples in the Symphony as part of their very nature. The Virtues are based upon honor, upon virtue and trust and brotherhood. They share a bond greater than any Choir or Band, and certainly greater than the bond that all angels share: they share the bond of Trauma. Every time a Malakite dies corporeally, he is not sent into Trauma because the Trauma spreads instead in ripples across the Symphony, equally affecting all other Malakim (those, that is, who aren't in Limbo). No one Malakite bears the full brunt of Trauma because his fellow Virtues can help him deal with the burden. This helps also to explain why even new Malakim seem relatively unaffected by corporeal death; they feel the pain of their fellows dying without actually having to experience it firsthand. Malakim are also generally relatively sober, solemn individuals because of this bond. This is not to say that they can't have fun - simply that because of the sharing of Trauma, they feel the sting of death more often than other celestials. Contrary to popular belief, this is not limited entirely to Malakim! Any Malakite Superior can grant this bond, similar to a servitor attunement, to any servitor, although it's a rarely-granted ability; the angel must know and understand the depth of the commitment that he's undertaking, and generally is one of the Archangel's most trusted and battle-tested servitors. There is one additional drawback - due to the constant Symphonic and Traumatic input that the angel is receiving, all resonance rolls are at a - -1 target number. Cost: 10 CP Granted abilities: Immunity to Trauma, Malakite Bond Drawbacks: Must experience a piece of the Trauma of each other member of the Bond, -1 to all resonance rolls Available: Stone, The Sword, Purity (before 745 AD) Thoughts? - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:53:33 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> [ADMIN] Getting rid of MIME/HTML >>>(Geeze, do I have to have monthly postings of that message that everyone should have gotten when they s u b s c r i b e d?)<<< Probably. A certain percentage of people joining any list will be semi-literate morons. Welcome to list administration. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:56:33 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Cry Havoc! >>>Minor nitpick God didn't appoint Laurence the Seraphim Council did. And who leads the Seraphim Council? The Hyena.<<< Bzzzt! Wrong on both counts. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:05:54 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Cry Havoc! At 7:56 AM -0600 11/10/99, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Minor nitpick God didn't appoint Laurence the Seraphim Council >did. And who leads the Seraphim Council? The Hyena.<<< > >Bzzzt! Wrong on both counts. Do I recall correctly that no one has actually led the Seraphim Council since its last Leader went Balseraph and fomented a Rebellion against God? - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:55:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> God is Love On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Tim Groth wrote: > >While working on the Beleth thing it struck me that it might have been > >interesting to have a what if everyone else fell writeup. Written as if > >Dominic fell but Asmodeus didn;t Blandine fell but Beleth didn't Michael > >Fell but Ba'al didn't and so forth. > I've actually been working on this kind of setting (in it Michael is the > one who led the Fall). I'm stuck on Eli's Word however (I've considered > Stagnation, Banality, Emptiness or something to that effect but I haven't > been able to decide). How about "Eli, Demon Prince of the World". His Demonic Word is a combination of Lust and Gluttony. Unable to create any more, he wallows in the various pleasures and temptations that the World has to offer. His message to humanity is that there is nothing beyond mortal life, and so they may as well embrace everything the World has to offer. It would probably be dissonant for Servitors of the World to refuse to indulge their whims or desires. Hmmm... I may write this up in more detail now. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:08:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Vessels Azrael wrote: > If they don't require oxygen then why must they breath? For the same symbolic reasons that angels and demons get Essence at dawn and dusk respectively. Breath is spirit. (Also, if they're going to sweat and produce skin oil, they have to metabolize a *little* bit.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:15:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Cry Havoc! Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > I think it's more likely that Michael thinks that Laurence turns to > him for help when he really doesn't need it. I wrote: > It might well be that. I still think making Laurence the master > strategist and Michael the master tactician is also a good idea. Azrael wrote: > What's the difference? I meant that, in the nature of things, people doing tactics (immediate, concrete and practical problem solving) almost always feel they are saving the bacon of the people doing strategy (more abstract, generalized problem solving that will be realized only by a lot of tactical work). A great strategist who is not such a great tactician will tend to create more problems for his tactical workers than he would if he was a better tactician and could fine-tune his strategy to suit. I tend to see Michael as the tactician because his realm of combat is the lone champion or the little band of buddies, all very individualistic. Laurence is painted as more managerial, which feels more strategic than tactical to me. It is an entirely separate issue, whether or not Laurence calls on Michael's aid more often than he needs to. Both problems could exist at once. Laurence might know he's not as good at tactics, but over-compensate my calling Michael in for tactical advice and help too often, rather than developing his own skills. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:26:17 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Marc and Capitalism/Communism David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Marc promotes Trade in the form of mutually > beneficial exchange. Any governmental system that helps > that goal is of interest to him. So while socialism/ > communism is better than feudal lords owning everything > and mongol warriors, they are inferior to capitalism.<<< > > They've proven inferior in their implementation on Earth; that doesn't > mean they are intrinsically inferior. (Now, I personally believe that > capitalism will always beat communism or socialism in terms of providing > the greatest good to the greatest number of people, but I think that's > for complex socio-political-economic reasons, not because there's some > universal law or provable theorum that makes one inherently superior.) Provable, how? Scientific proof (as opposed to mathematical proof) is strongly on the side of Capitalism. Every economic model of human behavior that is expansive enough to include both communism and capitalism (and has accurately matched real-world data) shows capitalism coming out ahead. One of the prime tenets of communism is central planning whereas the 'will of the market', driven by capitalist self interest (not necessarily SELFISHness), has proven much, much smarter. The word of Trade isn't about some bureaucrat (even a well-meaning one) dictating that factory-X produce 10,000 baby shoes. It's about 10,000 people individually deciding they want their babies to have shoes and going out and buying them. About a factory owner making more baby shoes and hiring people who voluntarily decide that making baby shoes in exchange for a paycheck is a Good Thing. Communism isn't about Trade, it's about control. > So I can see some angels (like David) insisting that Heaven shouldn't > lower its standards, and shouldn't allow the weak to be thrown to the > wolves just so a gifted few can become wealthy and comfortable. Whereas > Marc is more pragmatic, and perhaps quotes Jesus' words: "The poor will > always be among us." I can't disagree more. David is the one MOST likely to say, "Let the law of the jungle rule and the strong will survive." Marc, on the other hand, sees beyond one wolf eating one rabbit and follows enlightened self-interest: poor people cannot buy things, so let's give them opportunities to become productive citizens. Marc doesn't give things away... he makes investments. Poor is always relative to the surrounding society, so Jesus isn't wrong. But I have an inherent distrust of systems that eliminate 'poverty' by eliminating the wealthy. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for Data General + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:46:01 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> God is Love At 09:55 AM 11/10/99 -0400, you wrote: > >How about "Eli, Demon Prince of the World". > >His Demonic Word is a combination of Lust and Gluttony. Unable to create >any more, he wallows in the various pleasures and temptations that the >World has to offer. His message to humanity is that there is nothing >beyond mortal life, and so they may as well embrace everything the World >has to offer. > >It would probably be dissonant for Servitors of the World to refuse to >indulge their whims or desires. > >Hmmm... I may write this up in more detail now. > I think the proper term for this would be the Demon Prince of Hedonism. in my opinion this represents the mindset you are portraying. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:32:37 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> God is Love At 9:55 AM -0400 11/10/99, Richard Gant wrote: >On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Tim Groth wrote: > > > >While working on the Beleth thing it struck me that it might have been > > >interesting to have a what if everyone else fell writeup. Written as if > > >Dominic fell but Asmodeus didn;t Blandine fell but Beleth didn't Michael > > >Fell but Ba'al didn't and so forth. > > I've actually been working on this kind of setting (in it Michael is the > > one who led the Fall). I'm stuck on Eli's Word however (I've considered > > Stagnation, Banality, Emptiness or something to that effect but I haven't > > been able to decide). > > >How about "Eli, Demon Prince of the World". I actually like the concept of the "Prince of Cancer" writeup that was done -- the idea of creation going amuck and *all* responsibility going by the wayside seems very Eli.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:51:30 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: IN> heresy additional question with this whole everyone else fell thing. Which of the other archangels do people feel would be malakim? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:50:31 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Ruggedized Calabim At 20:11 -0500 11/10/99, Azrael wrote: >INpg101: " Second most, Malakim will never surrender in a fight, nor will they allow >themselves to be captured by the armies of Lucifer. Surrendering to hell would dishonour Heaven. >Death is preferable. Most Malakim are used to corporeal death. They've lived through it hundreseds >of times, and are unaffected by its Trauma" > >So bearing the nature of Traum in mind, Malakim don't get Trauma 'cos they're used to dyin' >and thus don't findit Traumatic. So it isn't because of any special thingee in their make up. Sorry, no. Yes, the original book's wording can be read that way, but it's unclear -- it doesn't say "and are *therefore* unaffected by its Trauma". It can also be read as "they're used to death; they die a lot; they don't get Trauma." Chalk it up as another triumph of color over clarity and consistency. The canon ruling is that new Malakim who've experienced no deaths still don't get Trauma on their first death. The alternative raises too many messy problems, and makes Malakim less special (and scary). This probably should be in the FAQ, if not the errata for the main book. It may be covered in the APG, though I don't recall seeing it there. It's certainly how it's handled in GURPS In Nomine. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:55:40 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Cry Havoc! At 9:05 -0500 11/10/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Do I recall correctly that no one has actually led the Seraphim >Council since its last Leader went Balseraph and fomented a Rebellion >against God? I seem to recall the Council was formed *after* the Fall, to fill the power vacuum left by God's semi-retirement. I'd have to check the GMG timeline to be sure, though. I don't think there is an official leader of the Council in canon -- I tend to have Dominic and/or Yves handle that function in my games. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1402 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.