From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Nov 16 08:10:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21244 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:10:42 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id IAA05192 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:07:58 -0600 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:07:58 -0600 Message-Id: <199911161407.IAA05192@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1415 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, November 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1415 In this digest: IN> Vorsprung durch Teknik Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host IN> speaking in tongues Re: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) Re: IN> One Good Demon Re: IN> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:56:53 +1100 Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence Re: IN> Words and Anti-Words IN> AVAILABLE WORLDWIDE 3% HOMELOANS Re: IN> The Fall, Again RE: IN> One Good Demon Re: IN> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Re: IN> Vehicular Vessels. Re: IN> One Good Demon Re: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) IN> [ADMIN] Getting rid of MIME/HTML Re: IN> Azazel: Superior Spirit of Death Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence IN> Lois Bujold IN> Satellite Owners! Must See! Re: IN> speaking in tongues Re: IN> The Fall, Again Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence Re: IN> David Re: IN> David IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host Re: IN> IN Heresy Survey Re: Adventures (was IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host) Re: IN> The Fall, Again Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:50:26 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: IN> Vorsprung durch Teknik [Oh, go on then ;) ] Vapula, Archangel of Technology "The world is changing and evolving. Embrace the future." Nothing is impossible and even Vapula, who thoroughly enjoys Hell, might find the path to redemption -- most probably though a Divine Intervention on a self-resonance roll. Who knows what degree of introspection it might take for the firebrand Prince of Technology to suddenly see the light. But it's certain that he (she?) would never hold back from grasping a brilliant new concept out of fear, just because it was different ... If the Seraphim Council are surprised when she presents herself as a fait accompli and announces that she is joining them, the more pragmatic members have enough sense to go with the flow. (They may regret this later, in private) As the Archangel of Technology, she cuts a gleaming, animated figure in the Seraphim council. She makes no secret of the fact that she believes that her fellow Archangels are a hidebound bunch, who should embrace the future, rather than clutching so closely to the past. The scientific method is her credo, and "vorsprung durch technik" ("progress via technology") is her motto. She has taken on David's old responsibility of teaching humanity to use tools productively, except (she says) the difference is that she doesn't intend to leave the job half-done. Forward-looking, and taking a quiet fascination in humanity's ability to innovate, she sends her angels to aid scientists, engineers and politicians in finding new, ethical uses for established technology. Her private agenda, to introduce new technology into Heaven's methodology where it would be more efficient, leads her to meddle incessantly with other Archangels' affairs. But it is all in a good cause. She demands that her Servitors exercise common sense and learn to think and innovate for themselves. After all, humanity can do it, so what excuse can angels have? Dissonance Condition Vapula is as passionately attached to technology and progress as an Elohite can be (which is to say that she often comments that she believes it to be a good thing). However, it is dissonant for any of her angels to value an item of technology more than the humans they are sworn to serve. Choir Attunements Seraphim These angels may use their resonance on a technological item to determine what function it truly serves -- what the item does, and also what use its current owner intends for it. Cherubim Cherubim may automatically de-attune from inanimate objects, without requiring to make a Will roll. Each one is granted a palmtop to help them keep track of attunements, which allows them to attune to additional inanimate objects, equal to their Celestial Forces. Ofanim Technology's Ofanim are each allocated a palmtop computer which runs a CPS (celestial positioning system). Although the CPS will not help them to get anywhere more quickly, they can check it to know precisely where they are -- right down to the street names and Longitude/ Latitude on Earth, or their equivalents in other realms. Elohim Elohim of Vapula are able to tune into the strange feelings of machines. A Power who makes a successful resonance roll on a device may add the check digit of that roll to any attempts to operate or repair it. Malakim These Virtues are each granted a small reliquary weapon such as a switchblade, or a tiny pistol, which can hold 5 Essence, and is concealed in an otherwise innocuous item, such as a pen or watch. Anyone searching one of Vapula's Malakim for concealed weapons does so at a penalty of the angel's Ethereal Forces. Kyriotates Vapula's Dominations are also her elite code hackers. They may add their Ethereal Forces to any Computer Operations rolls, and their multitasking nature also gives them the ability to "speak" any computer language fluently, right down to the high-speed bit streams which devices use to communicate amongst themselves. Mercurians In addition to the usual results of a resonance check, when Vapula's Mercurians sense details about a person's friends, they will also pick up how the subject relates to his favorite and least favorite items of technology. On higher check digits this can include details such as passwords for local networks, as appropriate. Servitor Attunements Reverse Engineering An angel with this attunement may spend a number of hours equal to[10 - his Ethereal Forces] in studying any working item of technology or code, without taking it apart, and then be able to deduce how to create another with identical functionality. Invention (As per Vapula's current attunement) Distinctions Vassal of Technology An angel of this rank can immediately determine the best way to operate any device he encounters, giving him a +2 to whatever skill he uses. Friend of Inspectors Angels of this rank can detect any fault in any technological equipment. Master of the Scientific Method An angel of this rank can perceive all the possible uses of any item of technology, whether devised by mortals or celestials. Politics If Jean is also an Archangel in this setting, his relationship with Vapula is a close one. Despite their closely allied words, the two Superiors spend many hours in calmly reasoned debate, still unable to agree on whether humanity are great innovators or pea-brained meddlers. Vapula's relationship with Dominic and Laurence also leaves something to be desired - -- she feels that invention is stimulated by fewer rules, and finds more in common with Janus, and Eli. Surprisingly, she finds common ground with Novalis, who appreciates the work she does in advancing the use of technology in ending wars, and improving the environment. Relations Allied: Jean, Novalis Associated: Janus, Eli, Gabriel Hostile: Dominic, David Enemies: No one Rites * Show a mortal how to use technology in a more beneficial way to humanity. * Spot a technological safety hazard and correct it. * Persuade an angel to use new technology. Chance of Invocation: 3 Summoning Modifiers +1 A box of safety matches +2 A soldering iron, correctly fused +3 A section of submarine telecommunications cable +4 Lecture notes from a professor who truly inspired at least one student +5 A braille-writer which has been used to write a novel +6 A sword which has been turned into a plowshare ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:53:18 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence Oh, very neat :) I think she is actually more interesting as a Demon Princess than as an Archangel. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:51:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host At 4:14 PM +0000 11/14/99, Liam wrote: >From: Azrael >> You've hurt my feelings now. > >good. us habbalites have to do stuff like that, y'know. it's for your own >good. Habbalah. - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:51:52 EST From: "ryanne nicholas" Subject: IN> speaking in tongues > >I know its not perfectly canon, but I like the idea of humans not being >able to stand having pure Symphonic themes dumped into their perception >(that and the fact you can only perceive not sense celestial forms >and >anysound they choose to make would add to the discomfort in my >opinion). > >Timothy, Angel of Ramlbing this isn't strictly related to this, and i don't know if this has been discussed before, but what would celestials do if they encountered people who claim to speak in the tongues of angels? (like in holiness and pentecostal churches) ryanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:23:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) At 5:57 PM +1100 11/15/99, bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au wrote: >Is it always necssecary for a demon when redeeming to go to the opposite choir? In canon, yes, though there is a comment about them turning into a reliever if they lose enough Forces... But without Superior intervention, it would re-fledge as the opposite. I wrote a whole long ramble about this a few months ago, and it ought to still be in the archives. >One of my players is a Calabim Ite. A Calabite. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:12:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> One Good Demon At 7:44 PM -0800 11/15/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Tim Groth wrote: > > >> Comments? Death Threats? Insults to my personal hygene? > > Just one thing. He kills people, he's a cop, he has to kill people and rough >them up sometimes. Role: Cop/6 helps a lot with that. Remember, if you're acting like a cop, the Symphony may overlook the damage you-as-cop do. (Using resonance would cause one note of disturbance for ever 4 hits of damage to the inanimate corpse.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:34:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:56:53 +1100 At 5:00 AM -0600 11/15/99, bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au wrote: >Cordelia Naismith, Aral Vorksagion; Shards of Honour The author is Lois McMaster Bujold, and Shards of Honor has been bundled with its much-later-written direct sequel, _Barrayar_, into _Cordelia's Honor_ (IIRC). Cordelia is an Elohite, really, but I think everyone else in there is human. (Lois McMaster Bujold is one of my faaaaavorite authors. But, alas, I must beg everyone to make sure that there is IN content aplenty in any discussion on the list about her books.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 03:21:59 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence >Oh, very neat :) I think she is actually more interesting as a Demon >Princess than as an Archangel. Thank you. I liked yours too! It occurred to me that some of the creepier Princes are the ones who are less stereotypically "demonic". Got me to wondering if you could have a Prince(ss) who was smiling, gentle, supportive, _nurturing_ even... and still scary. You guys tell me if this works. I wasn't sure if "codependence" was really the right Word, but after I played with it for a while it seemed to click. After all, it's such a short step from the righteously protective parent to the *over*protective parent, who spoils her precious darlings by excusing or explaining their every action... If anyone wants to beef up this description, btw, feel free... I choked a bit on Servitor Attunements. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:47:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Words and Anti-Words At 2:30 AM -0800 11/15/99, Steel Angel wrote: >David Edelstein wrote: > >> An angel can call his Word whatever he wants in English (or any other >> language); it's just mortal shorthand. > > But then we come back to that damn Demon of Spam thing. Spam has two meanings, both in English. I don't think a programmer in India is using the word 'spam'. So how do you go from the Celestial 'canned meat' to 'annoying email'? You read the GMG and get Lucifer to do things for you. (No one knows if Lucifer changed his Word to "things called 'spam' in english" or gave him two Words or what.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 99 10:36:10 EST From: 48595650@mail.ch Subject: IN> AVAILABLE WORLDWIDE 3% HOMELOANS $ 3% Homeloans Available Worldwide $ AVAILABLE NOW!! # A loan without extra hidden monthly or annual bank charges? # A property loan without location,zoning or qualfying limitations? # A home loan without application fees, or establishment charges? # A home loan without administration charges or costs of any kind? # A generous income component that will pay off your loans quickly? THIS IS THE REVOLUTIONARY WORLD WIDE NETWORK HOME FNANCE ORGANISATION THAT PROVIDES ACTIVE AGENTS WITH AN UNBEATABLE HOME LOAN AT THE LOWEST HOME LOAN INTEREST RATE IN THE WORLD! http://www.csi-int.co.nz/Equity.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:02:16 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Again > Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:35:09 -0800 > From: Steel Angel > >> Of course taking this seriously relies on Gabriel evaporating anyone who > >> attempted to change this document. Which considering she is a seraph and > >> short on temper would seem reasonable. > > > Nitpick! (my first). Gabriel is an Ofanite. Woo! > > >- - Abracax: Shedite of Riots But IRL, Gabriel is usually viewed as a Seraph, and this is what got quoted/mixed in with IN references, creating the nit you were so eager to pick, overlooking the RL reference in so doing, a reference which, when understood, undoes your use of DP Beth's Infernal Rite. Tom, Cadre Cherub who sometimes works for the AA of Communication. - -- "Strange blood, howl again, for now we know to well Better a friend on paths unknown, than to be alone in Hell!" --"Strange Blood" "A Wolfrider's Reflection", various artist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:33:20 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> One Good Demon " And that discord would be visible in his celestial form, and Baal gave him a vessel and sent him to Earth with selfless discord? Baal would be more likely to disband his forces and put them to better use. If you want to say he just wasn't that evil, that's a possiblity. Perhaps Baal used some free forces that had been stripped from another demon that was starting to go selfless. However, if it showed up as selfless discord in hell, baby calabim would be diced up before he could win a spot on earth. This could work, but it needs a more credible backstory than he was just always a good demon and nobody noticed. " I thought demons didn't care much if other demons had discord. At least that's what the main rule book says. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:30:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com At 2:09 AM -0800 11/16/99, Steel Angel wrote: >goldencalf@hushmail.com wrote: > >> Get HushMail. The world's first free, fully encrypted, ... > >Okay, this just begs to be responded to by the list itself in general. Whatcha >think, Archangel Beth? Send _EMAIL_ as much as you want. Me, I'm going to look up their upstreams and complain about a spamsite. And then I'm going to get my family, in Austin (their physaddress according to internic lookup), to drop in and rail at them, if I get no satisfaction otherwise. (And, yes, I _AM_ looking into the way to have a "permission to post" list; I was told it was going to be set up... last Monday. Haven't got the instructions on how to make it work yet.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:51:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Vehicular Vessels. At 3:30 PM +0000 11/14/99, Liam wrote: >From: Elizabeth McCoy >> >> Normal vessels can wear clothes, right? Same thing. > >tires, maybe, but what about over bits and pieces that get regularly >replaced and swapped in cars? What about 'em? Think of it this way -- if your human vessel gets into a nasty car wreck, and the doctors stick all these prosthetics on it... Figure it's roughly the same thing. >> >how do the pieces of "normal" human >> >interact with the weirdy metabolism of the vessel they're attached to? >> >> Any way the GM wants them to. > >just wondering if there was any canon on it There's no canon on non-biological vessels at all, except the maybe-canon- if-compelling-arguements-later-don't-change-my-mind stuff I've written in this thread. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:19:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> One Good Demon At 9:53 PM -0800 11/15/99, Steel Angel wrote: > Again, who -gave- him the Role? One can establish one's own Role. See the Liber Servitorum, which has a very nice 5 or so pages on Roles. (Roles do not get established, *poof*, by Superiors, though the network of Servitors already on Earth can certainly aid in generating Roles.) > Is that -possible-? To have a Calabite with Selfless? As his Band-Discord? Maybe, maybe not... I recall a slightly silly conversation I had with some friends, regarding Baal's Selfless Calabim Bodyguard. "Here, Lord General Sir, let me throw myself in front of this bullet for you!" Certainly the Game would look askance at this, but hey, if someone could assure them that he was under control, it _miiiiiiight_ pass. If the GM is being merciful and likes the story ideas it generates. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:04:24 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Changing choirs (Re: One Good Demon) > > Is it always necssecary for a demon when redeeming to go to the opposite > > choir? > > Canonically, yes. Feel free to break canon > in your campaign, though! > For those who want more details: Think of > every demonic band as a 'broken' version of an > opposing angelic choir (let's leave Lilim out of That got me thinking. An interesting way to run an alternative game is to remove demonic bands entirely. A demon is just a discordant angel, correct? If Heaven is suitably unforgiving where discord is concerned, you could define a demon as any angel who has sufficient discord to have fled Heaven. This could be a very low-contrast game (Heaven didn't want them, they were thrown out.) or a very high-contrast game (They're obviously evil. Look at all that discord.) After all, the angelic tricks aren't necessarily "good". And demons would, by definition of their discord, be weaker than angels. And Malakim could, unless destroyed quickly by Heaven, attain sufficient discord to be Fallen Angels. I suppose the mechanics would work the same, with Falling and all, but you'd not change choirs. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:46:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] Getting rid of MIME/HTML Since I see that we have some HTML sent to the list recently, I will post this YET AGAIN (even though it's in the s u b s cription-to-the-list long message that everybody gets when they s u b s c r i b e) so that people will, hopefully, _READ_ it and not cause me to u n s u b s c r i b e them from the list. (Geeze, do I have to have monthly postings of that message that everyone should have gotten when they s u b s c r i b e d?) - --Beth, Djinn Princess of List Admin >From: "Prodigal" >Subject: IN> Getting rid of MIME/HTML >Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:05:57 -0500 > >From: Elizabeth McCoy >> >>Microsoft emailers and browser/emailers are particularly prone to sending >>stuff in MIME or HTML. There are at least _two_ preference toggles you >>have to turn off to get plain text. > >It's actually a little easier than that, with Outlook Express at least. > >In the Options window, there's an option to reply to messages in the format >that they were sent in, which takes care of it, IF you are replying to a >plain text message. > >If you're replying to a message in HTML or posting one that is not a reply, >just click Format, and choose Plain Text. It's what I do, to make sure I >don't violate the spirit of the list (or since this is about IN, would that >be "the celestial ofthe list" instead?) > >> However, that is a small price to pay to >> avoid having the Djinn Princess of List Admin feed your toes to her >Shedim.) > >Not to mention good sense. ;) > >Azzur, Malakim of the Sword >In Service to Protection >Whose Oaths include "I will not post HTML messages to the list." > - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:53:44 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Azazel: Superior Spirit of Death Tim Groth wrote: > So is she still a demon? Structurally, yes. She's of the Free Lilim, and has paid off all her geases to Lilith, so Hell has very little hold on her by way of formal ties and obligations, so she's been able to drift slowly upward without it attracting much attention. > And she would still be unpopular for several reasons (that entire > second death thing being top on the list). The second death thing is not all that revolutionary. Saminga plucked souls apart, force by force, until there was nothing left; that's where he got forces to graft into undead. I'd be very surprised if Vapula didn't dissect souls routinely. Baal is described as slaying anyone who won't fight in his eternal war zone; that presumably means soul-death. Haagenti eats human and demonic souls fairly regularly, one gathers. Soul-killing, I always thought, was a fairly common occurence in Hell. > Not to mention if Lucifer doesn't like her all the Princes might > find they have a strange and sudden dislike for her. Lucifer *doesn't* like her. Her position is risky, and she knows it. On her side, for the moment, are (1) the fact that Lucifer is keeping quiet about her while he figures out what to make of her, (2) her secret alliance with Azrael, and (3) the fact that God is the one she's on a secret mission for. But, yes, she's certainly in for quite an adventure, as is anyone standing too close to her. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 02:46:25 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence At 2:45 AM -0400 11/16/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >Habbalim Habbalah >-- Zadkiel's Habbalim know those who are in emotional pain, Remember, the In Nomine Styleguide is your friend: http://www.sjgames.com/general/guidelines/writers/in-nomine-style-sheet.html Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 03:39:42 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Lois Bujold >The author is Lois McMaster Bujold, and Shards of Honor has been bundled >with its much-later-written direct sequel, _Barrayar_, into _Cordelia's >Honor_ (IIRC). Highly recommended, yes. Bujold has won several awards. If you like good SF, not too hard and not too soft and with really interesting, fully realized human characters... try these books. >Cordelia is an Elohite, really, but I think everyone else in there is >human. Mmm, yeah, bit of that. She does show some emotion in _Barrayar_, but you do have a case. Ekaterin, mind you... now *there's* an Elohite. Miles is an Ofanite, of course. Aral... um. A Mal with the Angry Discord, who almost dies of dissonance from breaking an oath, then ends up taking a BIG oath ("Serve as Gregor's Regent until he's ready to take over") to make up for it? Naah. Ges Vorrutyer, a Djinn who can't shake his resonance-lock on Aral. Baron Fell, a Habbalite. And Cavilo, a Balseraph, no question there. But yeah, most of them are too complicated to be angels or demons. >(Lois McMaster Bujold is one of my faaaaavorite authors. But, alas, >I must beg everyone to make sure that there is IN content aplenty in >any discussion on the list about her books.) Right. For non-IN discussion, you would want to either go to the Bujold website www.dendarii.com - -- or join her very busy mailing list; you send the message s*bscr*b* lois-bujold my name to listproc@herald.co.uk - -- and it should just go from there. Lotta nifty people on that list. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 99 5:23:17 PM From: 6LObGYY44@yahoo.com Subject: IN> Satellite Owners! Must See! ACCESS ANY AND ALL CHANNELS ON YOUR SATELLITE SYSTEM Your Satellite receiver came with a little credit card size card called a "smartcard". This card controls which channels you do and do not receive. We can take your card (can not give you a new one - just take your existing one) and program it to receive any and all channels offered by your satellite company. We mean ANY and ALL. Now, let's get the legal jargon into play......We program these cards for testing purposes only. The use of the cards in your area may or may not bel illegal. The card should be used for testing purposes only. Now - Let's make sure we CAN program YOUR card. Take your card out of the receiver and let's look at it. If it says "DSS ACCESS CARD" and is blue and has a picture of a satellite on the front then we are on the right track. Now, flip the card over. There should be a serial number in the bottom right hand corner. Does the serial number begin with H? If so , we are in business. We CAN only program these cards. We can NOT program the cards with a picture of a football player on the front or the Dish Network cards. Remember, we can NOT program Dish Network or the new cards with the football player on the front. Simply send us your card, we program it, we send it back. It is as simple as that. We recommend you send the card FEDEX, UPS or AIRBORNE. These shipping methods are quick, efficient and trackable. If you send your order postal service, you send it at your own risk!!. The postal service is NOT dependable or accurate. If you are a postal employee reading this - please do not go bolistic on me. Now the fees and payment methods: We accept money orders made payable to CASH or the "to" field left blank We accept cash We accept Mastercard, American Express, Visa, Discover WE DO NOT ACCEPT CHECKS MONEY ORDERS MUST BE MADE PAYABLE TO CASH One card = $299 programming fee 2 cards = $249/each programming fee 3 or more cards = $199/each programming fee * Add $20 to each order (not each card) for shipping * Add $10 if you use your credit card MENTION OFFER CODE 1115MP FOR AT $10 DISCOUNT Send your card and correct fee (s) to: Test Cards C\O Get Paged 4817 - D Highway 53 East P.O. Box 529 Tate, GA 30177 Have more questions? We knew you might. For personal service, you may call 1-770-621-5852 When calling, leave us your email address and we will email you an order form MENTION OFFER CODE 1115MP TO RECEIVE A $10 DISCOUNT OTHER INFO BELOW * Program your own cards. We can sell you a programmer where you could program your own DSS cards. Programmer come with the hardware, software and limited tech support to get you started. All this for $1999.00. If you would like a programmer of your own, call the number above and ask for programmer information. * Remember - to be used for testing purposes only ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:03:57 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> speaking in tongues ryanne nicholas wrote: > what would celestials do if they encountered people > who claim to speak in the tongues of angels? (like in holiness and > pentecostal churches) Well, I'm sure the reply of the average Seraph might involve the words 'deluded liars' or something similar. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:05:55 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Again Uncle Wolf wrote: > But IRL, Gabriel is usually viewed as a Seraph, and this is what got > quoted/mixed in with IN references, creating the nit you were so eager > to pick, overlooking the RL reference in so doing, a reference which, > when understood, undoes your use of DP Beth's Infernal Rite. Actually, isn't Gabriel seen as an Archangel, IRL? Which is a different order of being than a Seraph. Rebound! ball's in your court. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:11:37 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence Douglas Muir wrote: > I wasn't sure if "codependence" was really the right Word, but after I > played with it for a while it seemed to click. After all, it's such a > short step from the righteously protective parent to the *over*protective > parent, who spoils her precious darlings by excusing or explaining their > every action... I did enjoy yhe writeup very much. But as for a Word, try 'Weakness' or 'Frailty'? As in 'Supporting Same'. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:37:18 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Re: IN> David >> Is it just me, or does David seem a social Darwinist to anyone else? > >erm, i dunno, from what sociology i vaguely recall it doesn't seem to click >for me. i don't think david is entirely a "survival of the fittest" guy, >except on the largest scale. social darwinism would seem to me to suggest >societies where the strong prey on the weak, where the "cream" rises to the >top on the bodies of those below them. a society like that is pretty much >inherently selfish and internally divided. Why does everyone always pick on poor old Darwin? Survival of the fittest has nothing at all to do with survivial of the strongest, or the biggest, or the toughest. Survival of the fittest means that those organisms which have useful adaptions, making them fitter to survive within a given environment. It might be that one bird has a slightly stronger beak, and so can crack hard seeds open, or that a rodent has slightly webbed toes meaning that it can swim faster, or that a moth blends with a tree better. Over time, these small changes will lead to the development of unrecogniseable organisms which eventually can't even mate together - Great Danes are becoming a seperate speices to chihuahua for example, and given another couple of million years, might not be able to cross fertilise. >david wants to build strong communities with close ties among members. And those communities that prosper will pass on their "genes" in their laws, their constitutions, their customs etc. And when a community can no longer fight with others it will die. > i can see him encouraging a little conflict between nations, because it leads to >patriotism and the like. but encouraging communities to fight each other all the time >and prey on the weak is what led magog to falling. Magog forgot the reason that they gave hardship to humans - to make them stronger, and instead focused on teh hardship. And Magog wasn't a malakite. I can see David setting up conflicts, maybe even wars, within nations, or trying to crossbreed them and see if the resulting nation is in any way stronger. If a nation is weak, then it's inhabitants aren't getting teh same chances as those in a stronger one (probably). I have heard people in all seriousness talk of how 3rd world countries should be annexed to give their inhabitants a better chance at life. >hmmm, can't remember if i mentioned this before, but one thing that has >crossed my mind is, what do people think david's opinion on fascism is? i >could see him going for it And Facism doesn't have "societies where the strong prey on the weak, where the "cream" rises to the top on the bodies of those below them. a society like that is pretty much inherently selfish and internally divided." I'd say that is Facism. facism is often disguised as something else, eg: Napoleon's republic could be argued to be a facist state. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 03:06:58 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> David >From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au eg: Napoleon's republic could be argued to be a facist state. > That's interesting, because I'd always been under the impression that it was quite a lot fairer than the governments which had preceded it. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:33:47 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host >>>The difference I see is that when Michael originally had the position, he wasn't granted it by God.<<< You're free to see it any way you like, of course. But that's not canon. Canonically, he was granted the position by God. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:46:55 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> IN Heresy Survey At 1:47 AM -0600 11/16/99, Shadowstar wrote: >At 2:08 AM -0500 11/16/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >But nothing in IN Heresy will be "CANON." Not one word. The > >Michael, Prince of Wrath writeup that might appear there would be no > >more Canon than a Michael, Prince of Bunnies writeup posted here. > > It will be 'canon' in the essence that it would be an official product >of SJGames. Perhaps more appropriately I should have used the words: >PUBLISHED. };;;> Heh! > As do I. I just want to hold in my hands a nice sourcebook with the >words 'In Nomine: Heresy' in angry red lettering. . . };;;> Red? I'd think yellow. But that's me! (I bow to other peoples' majority opinion, but I once again put in a vote it be named IN Apocrypha. ) - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:56:56 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com Subject: Re: Adventures (was IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host) Samovar3@aol.com wrote: > > As for Michael never doing something this petty, he decides to > shelter an outcast (or was it already a demon, I don't remember and > don't have the book handy) and use it to destroy Yves' artifact > saint, and then plans to destroy his tool to cover up the evidence > in the Liber Reliquarium adventure. From my reading of that > adventure's backstory, I interpret his motives as his dislike of > Yves. I believe there's some claim that it's to place the artifact > collection under his control, but IMO it seems to be more the > dislike for Yves. Gah! That's the second-worst adventure written for IN: and this is a line that has not been notable for its luck with pre-written adventures. Only Fall of the Malakim was more incoherent. That adventure had plot holes you could drive a truck through. To pick one: how was Michael supposed to cover up his involvement? One, he's a Seraph and can't lie. Two, everyone in Heaven speaks the angelic tongue, in which no one can lie. Three, Heaven is chock-full of Malakim and Seraphim and Mercurians, all of whom basically have the ability to detect plot, which -- big surprise here -- makes lying close to impossible. Even if you claim that archangels and demon princes are immune, what about all the random NPCs involved in the adventure? It's just not credible that this would be overlooked. One of the persistent problems in the adventures written for IN is that the writers keep forgetting how *easy* it is for angelic characters to discover hidden secrets and underlying motivations. This makes driving an adventure through control of information an implausible mechanism. Even if you can manipulate the PCs, you have to explain how it's possible for the entire angelic society to be fooled. This should be in the writer's guidelines: don't try to write mysteries for IN; they Just Don't Work. Action-adventure, moral quandries, comedy, and interpersonal stuff are what do work well. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:56:47 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Fall, Again At 1:05 AM -0800 11/17/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Uncle Wolf wrote: > > > But IRL, Gabriel is usually viewed as a Seraph, and this is what got > > quoted/mixed in with IN references, creating the nit you were so eager > > to pick, overlooking the RL reference in so doing, a reference which, > > when understood, undoes your use of DP Beth's Infernal Rite. > > Actually, isn't Gabriel seen as an Archangel, IRL? Which is a >different order >of being than a Seraph. Rebound! ball's in your court. Actually, if you look into Angelology (not, thankfully, my word for the subject -- my Angelological studies are confined to IN fodder), you see a lot of Angels are listed as being members of lots of different Choirs of Angels. Gabriel being one of the so-called "Seven Archangels" means she ends up on a lot of lists. In the IN universe, it just happens her *proper* Choir is Ofanim. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:08:14 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com Subject: Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence Douglas Muir wrote: >"The World is foolish and wicked and weak. We must protect it, > from itself if need be." [...] This is BRILLIANT! I don't like the word -- it sounds too modern to my ears -- but the whole concept is just lovely. If I run another campaign, fallen Zadkiel is going to be in it. I like Vapula's quote, too. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1415 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.