From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Nov 17 10:28:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA31595 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:28:22 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA13532 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:06:04 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:06:04 -0600 Message-Id: <199911171606.KAA13532@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1417 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, November 17 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1417 In this digest: Re: IN> Vorsprung durch Teknik Re: IN> Vorsprung durch Teknik IN> Janus' Foil IN> Re: Adventures Re: IN> Janus' Foil IN> Speaking in Tongues IN> Song of Transfiguration IN> Prophets (WAS: Speaking in Tongues) Re: IN> Janus' Foil Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence IN> Impudite Resonance? IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? IN> MAKE $15,000 & MORE PER MONTH, WITH MONEY MAKING REPORTS!!! Re: IN> Words and Anti-Words Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Janus' Foil Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:52:16 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Vorsprung durch Teknik Jo Hart wrote: > Because female engineers are Good, and Selfless Individuals, who Care Deeply > and have Well-Developed Social Consciences -- whereas male engineers are > either snits with a superiority complex, or utterly bonkers. > Ha. Haha. Hahahahahaaaaa!! *Ahem* I live with one of the former. Shyeah - -right-! Good one. > [Oh, and also because I figure Vapula is the type of personality who never > goes into anything half-heartedly. So if he's going to change, EVERYTHING > must change. Exelsior!] I still never got -why- Vapula was portrayed as a Habbalite. He doesn't seem to act on his emotions as they do, and nothing about the 'Angel delusion' was mentioned in his writeup. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:15:55 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Vorsprung durch Teknik > I still never got -why- Vapula was portrayed as a Habbalite. He >doesn't seem >to act on his emotions as they do, and nothing about the 'Angel delusion' was >mentioned in his writeup. Well he does act on his emotions, he just doesn't show them. Which is Habalahish. I'll give you the Angel delusion being overlooked. Maybe it won't be an expanded write up of him. Or its possible he is aware he is a demon and doesn't give a damn, maybe he's rational enough to realize that since he was created in hell by a demon he is most likel a demonhimself. Its unlikely, but maybe he is the only Habalah understanding this. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:13:09 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: IN> Janus' Foil I was contemplating my favorite Superior (as I'm sure everyone does from time to time) and I began thanking that Lucifer set up DPs to directly oppose AAs after the fall (as mentioned in Kobals FT write-up) a quick glance at the handy opinion chart showed me that Janus' Polar opposite was Valefor. Big surprise. But Valefor wasn't around for the fall, so I began to wonder who Lucifer set up against the Wind. It isn't easy to stop the Wind and certainly none of the living DPs are up to the task of countering Janus (they've got more important things to do ;) Anyway I couldn't decide who Lucy would set against Janus. Any suggestions? Oblivion? Rapine? Suggestions welcome Insults ignored. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:41:27 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Re: Adventures >>>That adventure had plot holes you could drive a truck through. To pick one: how was Michael supposed to cover up his involvement?<<< I feel a need to defend that adventure, since I was the editor for the Liber Reliquarum, in which it appeared. If I was editor now, I'd probably be firmer about saying "No, we can't have Michael being such a bastard," but at that point, early in the line (and I think Elizabeth had just taken over as LE at that point, and was preoccupied with other things), the "tone" of the Archangels was still a lot closer to the borderline-dissonant way they're portrayed in INS/MV (and, in some cases, the basic rulebook). Yes, Michael is sneaky and manipulative in that adventure, but he *doesn't* lie. And as for how he covers his involvement -- simple; he doesn't answer questions. And nobody but another Superior can resonate on an Archangel if the Archangel doesn't want to be resonated, and even that is questionable. Seraphim have to tell the truth, but they don't have to volunteer it, and Michael can get away with responding to questions from anyone (except *maybe* Dominic) with a cold, hard stare. So, does it make sense for Michael to have been involved in such a plot? In retrospect, no, probably not. But is it *possible* (albeit unlikely) for him to have engineered it without being dissonant? Yes. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:40:34 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Janus' Foil It was in the IPG, the Prince of Sloth. To counteract Janus being all active and interested in changing things. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:12:37 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Speaking in Tongues >>>In real life, "speaking in tounges" is (at lease sometimes) a documented and established phenomenon. I forget the name of it, off the top of my head,<<< Glossalalia. >>>In game, it may be deluded liars. It may be Possession, demonic or otherwise (by song or resonance).<<< Or it may be an actual divine message... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:16:23 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Transfiguration >>>Is it a valid practice for a Kyriotate to possess another celestial's vessel, go celestial but stay on the corporeal plane, go up about a mile, and then ascend to the celestial plane, thereby causing the vessel to manifest a mile above the surface of the planet? Or would the vessel reappear at the location at which it was last physical?<<< Depends what you mean by "valid," since it would almost certainly be dissonant. But yes, I think the body would rematerialize at the last point where the Kyriotate was on the corporeal plane; anything else introduces all kinds of complexities and paradoxes. >>>Also, what happens if a celestial's vessel is possessed and Transfigured, and they use another vessel? At the end of the Transfiguration, would the original vessel simply vanish from the celestial plane, or would it descend to the corporeal and then dissipate?<<< I'd say it would reappear on the corporeal plane, and be much like an "unoccupied" vessel left out of a Body Bag. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:53:31 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Prophets (WAS: Speaking in Tongues) At 10:12 PM -0600 11/16/99, David Edelstein wrote: >Or it may be an actual divine message... Like those the Prophets (Corporeal Player's Guide p. 68-69) could hear? Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:52:26 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Janus' Foil At 9:13 PM -0600 11/16/99, Trent wrote: >But Valefor wasn't around for the fall, so I began to >wonder who Lucifer set up against the Wind. It isn't easy to stop the Wind >and certainly none of the living DPs are up to the task of countering Janus >(they've got more important things to do ;) Anyway I couldn't decide who >Lucy would set against Janus. Any suggestions? Oblivion? Rapine? Sloth, I should think. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:06:47 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence Thanks to everyone who had kind words about this writeup. Did anyone have any recommendations or suggestions? I viewed this as sort of a first draft, so comments are welcome. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:52:55 PST From: "Micheal Knight" Subject: IN> Impudite Resonance? Okay, just reread the main rule book. (I'm allowing demon PCs in my current campaign, and I wanted to brush up on their resonances again.) How is a blessed Impudite supposed to use its blessed resonance?! "Impudites can roll against their resonance to manipulate a soul in two ways: Charm, and Steal Essence. Both actions require a normal resonance roll, with a penalty equal to the victim's total number of Ethereal and Celestial Forces. Some Princes grant bonuses to their Impudite servants toward using their resonance on different types of souls." (From the In Nomine main book, Demonic Hardbound edition, page 154) Correct me here, If I'm wrong. A purely average, I'm a bland Impudite with no creativity character has a six will. An average human will have between 1-3 Ethereal and 1-3 Celestial forces. This means an average penalty to the Impudite resonance of 2-6. Thus, for the >least< brainy and soul-ly human, our poor ordinary Impudite must roll a 4 or less ot charm or drain him. Not a good chance. Out of the thirteen Superiors in the main book, three give bonuses, equal to the Corporeal Forces of the Impudite. (This is three, for average guy, making him a decidedly non-average Impudite, IMO). That brings his chance up to barely 50%, in his word's most favorable circumstances, on a weak-willed, slow-witted human (one force each). Am I very wrong somehow? Is there a way these poor, benighted demons can use their resonance more effectively? Please help. The poor Impudites in my campaign are feeling a wee bit powerless. Micheal Knight ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:03:02 PST From: "Micheal Knight" Subject: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. *chuckles* Okay, allowing demon PCs has started a whole host of new questions. (Teach me not to run the all-Renegade campaign.) One of my players asked to play a Free Lilim. I love this idea, after all, it lets me have nine free plot hooks on the poor thing's soul. Here's the question: Are those 9 Geas/3s on the Free Lilim worth any character points at all? If so, how many? Recall that a Calabite gets points for its starting discord, IIRC. 81 points is quite extreme, but a lesser number of points seems appropriate, and justified. Next question: Balseraphim. Alas, poor Balseraphim, we hardly knew ye. Nobody in my group played one, because their resonance, is negated by a will roll, rather than resisted. We're having some trouble understanding why this might be, as it means they're pretty much ineffective against anything with a decent will, or just a few lucky rolls. You don't even have to match their check digit to resist the lies. How do they avoid the dissonance? It seems that one in six resistance (and that's not hard to rack up, under that rule) would generate dissonance. They'd be Discordant puddles of vestigium, needs, and phobias in weeks! Please help my poor demons. They seem to be quite in over their heads. Micheal ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:44:32 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? >From: "Micheal Knight" > > Am I very wrong somehow? Is there a way these poor, benighted demons >can use their resonance more effectively? Please help. The poor >Impudites in my campaign are feeling a wee bit powerless. Nope, you are absolutely right. (And you forgot the bit about how about 3 of the choirs get a extra bonus to resist -- as if they needed it!) It's the only band where you actually need to twink out on Celestial forces to make the things playable -- if you want to use the resonance with a 50% chance of success on an average mortal, your Impudte needs a Will of at least 10. Compare this to the Lilim one, who actually get bonuses to the Will section of their roll. My fix is to let Impudites make a straight Will roll to charm a victim, but use the book penalty for the Essence draining. Yes, it still means that Impudites are really really crap at draining Essence, no matter what all the fanfic says, but hey. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:47:48 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. > One of my players asked to play a Free Lilim. I love this idea, >after all, it lets me have nine free plot hooks on the poor thing's >soul. Here's the question: > >Are those 9 Geas/3s on the Free Lilim worth any character points at >all? No, absolutely not. (If she didn't want the geases, she didn't have to be a Free.) > Next question: > > Balseraphim. Alas, poor Balseraphim, we hardly knew ye. Nobody in >my group played one, because their resonance, is negated by a will >roll, rather than resisted. Use Songs of Celestial Charm, and target creatures with low Will. Yes, it is unfair that they have so much a harder time than Habbalah (frex) or Shedim. And yes, it never makes sense to try to resonate another demon, because you know they tend to have high Will. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 02:12:54 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. At 11:03 PM -0800 11/16/99, Micheal Knight wrote: >Are those 9 Geas/3s on the Free Lilim worth any character points at >all? No. Though I don't recall where I've seen this answered (I checked the FAQ, and it isn't there. . . But I know it exists somewhere!) I mean, go right ahead and give away the character points if you want. . . *grin* But you'll suffer the consequences if you do so. (FYI: I have used Geases above and beyond the original 9 given to all Free Lilim in exchange for points for three of the pre-genned PC's I've made for my group. However, they can be great means for me the GM to help control said characters somewhat. They are almost akin to the oaths sworn by _all_ Malakim.) > Next question: > > Balseraphim. _Balseraphs_ for the Plural. _Balseraph_ for the Singular. >Alas, poor Balseraphim, we hardly knew ye. >Nobody in my group played one, Shame on them! Though they should be reserved for the GM, seeing as they _are_ the royalty of Hell and all. };;;> >because their resonance, is negated by a will roll, rather than resisted. >We're having some trouble understanding why this might be, as it means >they're pretty much ineffective against anything with a decent will, or >just a few lucky rolls. True, but a Balseraph's ability is pretty damned nasty if it didn't have a serious hinderance to it. Also keep in mind that said Balseraph should buy the Song of Charm (Celestial/6) (which cannot be resisted), and pick up Emote and Fast Talk while they are at it. A Balseraph has more than one means to convince his target into believing what they have to say. (But _never_ forget that Balseraphs do _NOT_ lie. They change the truth to suit the worldview they'd prefer, but like Seraphim they cannot tell an 'untruth'. Which is why Balseraphs cannot take Lying as a skill.) > How do they avoid the dissonance? It seems that one in six >resistance (and that's not hard to rack up, under that rule) would >generate dissonance. As I said above, he has more than one tool at his dispossal. >They'd be Discordant puddles of vestigium, needs, and phobias in weeks! And this is different from the average crazed Balseraph how? };;;> >Please help my poor demons. They seem to be quite in over their >heads. As they should be! Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 03:47:04 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? >Okay, just reread the main rule book. (I'm allowing demon PCs in my >current campaign, and I wanted to brush up on their resonances again.) > >How is a blessed Impudite supposed to use its blessed resonance?! Heh heh. Everyone is surprised when they first discover this. >"Impudites can roll against their resonance to manipulate a soul in >two ways: Charm, and Steal Essence. > Both actions require a normal resonance roll, with a penalty >equal to the victim's total number of Ethereal and Celestial Forces. >Some Princes grant bonuses to their Impudite servants toward using >their resonance on different types of souls." > >(From the In Nomine main book, Demonic Hardbound edition, page 154) > >Correct me here, If I'm wrong. A purely average, I'm a bland >Impudite with no creativity character has a six will. Imps MUST beef up their Will. This is not optional as it is for other demons. Get it up to at least 10 or don't even bother. >An average >human will have between 1-3 Ethereal and 1-3 Celestial forces. This >means an average penalty to the Impudite resonance of 2-6. Thus, for >the >least< brainy and soul-ly human, our poor ordinary Impudite must >roll a 4 or less ot charm or drain him. Not a good chance. Oh, wait, it gets worse. The human gets a Will roll to resist the Charm, remember? And then the Imp must make a *second* resonance roll to steal the Essence. And the human gets a Will roll to resist *that*. And -- this is the kicker -- if the human succeeds on his Will roll, and with a higher check digit than the Imp, then the _human_ sucks essence from the _Imp's_ soul. Yowch! IMO the Impudite resonance was not properly balanced; it seems that the playtesters were so worried about turning Imps into charming essence-mongers that they went too far in the other direction. > Am I very wrong somehow? Is there a way these poor, benighted demons >can use their resonance more effectively? Please help. The poor >Impudites in my campaign are feeling a wee bit powerless. There are ways to help... some canon, some not. 1) Make sure everyone knows that Imps need the extra Will. If you're just starting this campaign, consider letting the players rewrite any low-Will Imps. 2) Allow Imps to suck Essence from people who like and trust them, regardless of whether that like and trust arises out of the Imp's charm power, or not. If the Imp can build this trust by being nice, doing favors, and in general being charming in the conventional sense, fine; he can skip using his charm resonance. This is borderline canon, but anyhow I *highly* recommend this interpretation. I use it and it helps. This way, the Impudite PC is encouraged to invest some time and effort in building real relationships. As a fun side bonus, this also helps role-play ("Okay, you've finally reached the point where Old Mrs. Jones really, really likes you as a friend and looks forward to seeing you every day." "Oh, great, now I can start using her as a spare Essence battery!" Really draws the players into the selfish demon mindset). One question is, how does the GM judge whether an NPC trusts the Imp that much? As a rule of thumb, I say that a relationship has reached this point when the Imp can put his arm around that person's shoulders and keep it there for thrity seconds without causing serious unease ("Mrs. Jones! Aw, gee, ma'am it's GREAT to see you again... well, let me give you a great big hug..."). 3) Let the Imp's charm resonance have a cumulative effect. If someone fails to resist it, subtract 1 from their Will for their next resistance roll. Keep doing this until the victim either succeeds in resisting, which wipes out all minueses, or until the victim's Will goes below 2. When this happens, keep giving him Will rolls to check for interventions, but figure that this person can no longer resist the Imp's charm effectively. This isn't canon, but it's not such a big change either (since the Imp still has to succeed in his resonance roll). Again, this encourages the Impudite to build long-term relationships -- albeit selfish and exploitative ones -- instead of just charming and draining random strangers. 4) Let the Imp's draining resonance have the same cumulative effect, making it ever harder for the victim to resist. 5) Say that the victim must win a Contest of Wills, not just make a successful Will roll with a high check digit, in order to make the Imp's draining resonance "backfire". Note that, if an Imp is well dug in and surrounded by friendly humans, he can be pretty tough; the humans will help him, and they'll also be living Essence batteries, allowing him to fling Songs around and influence rolls pretty freely. cheers, Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 05:26:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Micheal Knight wrote: > Correct me here, If I'm wrong. A purely average, I'm a bland > Impudite with no creativity character has a six will. An average > human will have between 1-3 Ethereal and 1-3 Celestial forces. This > means an average penalty to the Impudite resonance of 2-6. Wrong. For example, how on earth can a human have a total of 6 Ethereal + Celestial Forces? That'd be a 7-force human! Figure it this way: A human has 5 forces. They can have between 1-3 Corporeal Forces. That means they'll have 2-4 Ethereal + Celestial Forces. The average penalty for an average human is thus -3. > Thus, for > the >least< brainy and soul-ly human, our poor ordinary Impudite must > roll a 4 or less ot charm or drain him. Not a good chance. I've had very few demons with a Will of 6. And the Impudites in my game tend to beef up their Will even moreso than the average demon. 4 Celestial Forces - Will 10, Perception 6 - is VERY common. With a Will 10 and an average penalty of -3, they'll success more often than failing. Now, that doesn't mean they don't get shafted a BIT, but consider what a gosh darn good resonance it is, and it's only fair that it be a bit harder to jump start... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! GET SOME SLACK, CREATE SOME SLACK, OR DIE THESE ARE YOUR *ONLY* CHOICES -- St. Bubba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 04:02:07 From: moneyworld@excte.com Subject: IN> MAKE $15,000 & MORE PER MONTH, WITH MONEY MAKING REPORTS!!! This is the largest reprint, software, email names list, information package ever put together. It's not for everyone, but for the true Internet Entrepreneur, this is pure gold. Everything can be downloaded from our web-site within 24 to 48 hours of purchase. Here are just some of the items: * Over 3,000 (Not 200 or 300) Camera-Ready Money Making Reports (You receive the reprint rights, each can sell for $10 to $50)! * Over 70,000,000 Email Names (To send your advertisement to, or sell as you like. 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Spam-the-meatlike-product is a >brand name, and therefore >the same all over the world (much like >Coca-Cola). Actually, I believe they ended up changing the name of Coca-Cola in China, because the symbols that sound like Coca-Cola translated to "Bite the Wax Tadpole" or something like that. Oh, ummm... something on-topic... Is there a Demon of Translations, who makes sure that movie subtitles, signs in foreign hotels, and instuction sheets are laughably worded and confusing? And was it his idea to market the Chevy Nova in Spanish-speaking countries without changing the name? Wade (and why does "Bite the Wax Tadpole" sound like a rock group?) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:51:15 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Micheal Knight wrote: > Are those 9 Geas/3s on the Free Lilim worth any character points at > all? If so, how many? Recall that a Calabite gets points for its > starting discord, IIRC. 81 points is quite extreme, but a lesser > number of points seems appropriate, and justified. Nope. That's the price you pay to be a Free. > Next question: > > Balseraphim. Alas, poor Balseraphim, we hardly knew ye. Nobody in > my group played one, because their resonance, is negated by a will > roll, rather than resisted. We're having some trouble understanding > why this might be, as it means they're pretty much ineffective against > anything with a decent will, or just a few lucky rolls. You don't > even have to match their check digit to resist the lies. Balseraphs, he said, beating the servitors of Nitpicking to the punch. ;) The Balseraph resonance is one of the most useful... especially when dealing with humans! Your typical human will have a Will around 3-4. Its outrageous effectiveness is somewhat negated by the difficulty in using it. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:02:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Janus' Foil On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Trent wrote: > I was contemplating my favorite Superior (as I'm sure everyone does from > time to time) and I began thanking that Lucifer set up DPs to directly > oppose AAs after the fall (as mentioned in Kobals FT write-up) a quick > glance at the handy opinion chart showed me that Janus' Polar opposite was > Valefor. Big surprise. But Valefor wasn't around for the fall, so I began to > wonder who Lucifer set up against the Wind. It isn't easy to stop the Wind > and certainly none of the living DPs are up to the task of countering Janus > (they've got more important things to do ;) Anyway I couldn't decide who > Lucy would set against Janus. Any suggestions? Oblivion? Rapine? Sloth. Think about it. Janus represents activity and change (I'll leave it there; a discussion of what "the Wind" means could get *long*). Sloth is the absolute opposite of that: stagnation, inactivity, you name it. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Unofficial Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:27:53 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome V" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. - -----Original Message----- From: Micheal Knight To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 1:30 AM Subject: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. > >Are those 9 Geas/3s on the Free Lilim worth any character points at >all? If so, how many? Recall that a Calabite gets points for its >starting discord, IIRC. 81 points is quite extreme, but a lesser >number of points seems appropriate, and justified. nope. nada, nothing. on the other hand, there are no Superior dissonance conditions and she can work for and do pretty much whatever she likes. > > Balseraphim. Alas, poor Balseraphim, we hardly knew ye. Nobody in Balseraphs. no such creature as Balseraphim. >my group played one, because their resonance, is negated by a will >roll, rather than resisted. We're having some trouble understanding >why this might be, as it means they're pretty much ineffective against >anything with a decent will, or just a few lucky rolls. You don't >even have to match their check digit to resist the lies. sigh...there are bonuses and penalties to resist if the target hear a lie they *really* want to believe. and it's not quite that easy for a mortal to resist, in fact, i've had a Balseraph under me for 3 months now, and he's chosen his targets and his lies incredibly well, and hasn't been resisted yet. just remember the wonderful Celestial Song of Charm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:39:28 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? > Nope, you are absolutely right. (And you forgot the bit about how about 3 of > the choirs get a extra bonus to resist -- as if they needed it!) It's the > only band where you actually need to twink out on Celestial forces to make > the things playable -- if you want to use the resonance with a 50% chance of > success on an average mortal, your Impudte needs a Will of at least 10. Of course, what Impudite worth his salt will *not* have a high Will? What, you're going to make a combat Impudite? Your average human will tend to be 2/2/1, I'd think. This gives your average human a 2 will. This means a reasonably willed Impudite can whack him good with his resonance. > My fix is to let Impudites make a straight Will roll to charm a victim, but > use the book penalty for the Essence draining. Yes, it still means that > Impudites are really really crap at draining Essence, no matter what all the > fanfic says, but hey. No fix necessary. Your average *demon* may have all sixes for their stats, but your average *Impudite* probably picks a higher Will and lower Corporeal abilities. > jo Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:01:21 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? >From: "Ben Glickler" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >It's the > > only band where you actually need to twink out on Celestial forces to >make > > the things playable -- if you want to use the resonance with a 50% >chance >of > > success on an average mortal, your Impudte needs a Will of at least 10. > >Of course, what Impudite worth his salt will *not* have a high Will? What, >you're going to make a combat Impudite? I'd like the option :p What if I want to use lots of Corporeal or Ethereal Songs? > >Your average human will tend to be 2/2/1, I'd think. This gives your >average human a 2 will. This means a reasonably willed Impudite can whack >him good with his resonance. Let's go through this again. Shall we say that a reasonable level of Will is 7? (ie. Higher than average, especially when you bear in mind that most demons have 7 Forces.) An average human will have 5/3 Forces in each of Corporeal/Ethereal/Celestial, which (rounding up) gives them a total average of 3 Forces for Ethereal + Celestial. So in order to charm a mortal, our reasonably willed Impudite must succeed in a roll of Will - 3 (which is 4, in this case). Not a very good chance. And even then, the mortal gets a (admittedly small in this case) chance to resist. OK, so he's charmed the mortal. Good start. But now, if he actually wants to grab some Essence, he has to go through the whole thing again. And even then, he might find that the mortal had no Essence to grab. Will 10 would let the Impudite roll vs 7 to charm the average human (and he'd still have to repeat the roll to drain Essence). But I'd consider Will 10 to be higher than reasonable. YMMV. And it really bites if you did want to be combat capable. And that was an average human. Slightly harder to affect Soldiers, and very very hard to affect celestials, unless they are heavily corporeal-based. What's worse, because it's based on number of Forces, you can't even use Celestial Song of Charm to make it easier. > > > My fix is to let Impudites make a straight Will roll to charm a victim, >but > > use the book penalty for the Essence draining. > >No fix necessary. Your average *demon* may have all sixes for their stats, >but your average *Impudite* probably picks a higher Will and lower >Corporeal >abilities. > OK, so let's take the average celestial, with a total of 6 Forces in combined Ethereal + Celestial. My high-willed Impudite, with Will 10, needs to roll Will - 6 now, to charm (and then again to steal Essence). So even with a hugely high Will, he is still rolling against 4, and the victim gets a Will roll to resist, and some choirs get to add bonuses to the resistance roll. Convinced yet? Or do you assume that the average Impudite has Will 12? jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:06:17 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. > > Balseraphim. Alas, poor Balseraphim, we hardly knew ye. Nobody in > > my group played one, because their resonance, is negated by a will > > roll, rather than resisted. We're having some trouble understanding > > why this might be, as it means they're pretty much ineffective against > > anything with a decent will, or just a few lucky rolls. You don't > > even have to match their check digit to resist the lies. A Balseraph, typically not a combat creature (with a few noteworthy exceptions), will have a high Will. Let's assume you're a *crappy* Balseraph, and have only an 8 Will. Let's assume you are trying to use your resonance on a human. (Don't even bother with Angels. What, you're trying to inflict your personal Symphony on someone who is in tune with the real Symphony? Bonehead demon. Learn the Celestial Song of Charm or die.) Let's say the human has a 3 will. He has an 8.34% chance of succeeding a Will Roll. This means out of every twelve humans you meet, only one of them will be able to make his Will Roll. You, on the other hand, with your 8 will, have a 72.22% chance of succeeding your roll. Statistically, one out of three humans will beat your resonance. Let's say you have a *decent* Balseraph Will (no girly Wills here) of, say, 10. By raising your Will success rate to 91.66%, you double the chances, and only one out of six humans will beat your resonance. That's not bad. Not bad at all for being able to make them believe anything you want, and if you blow it, you can try again to undo the damage -- meaning only one out of THIRTY SIX tries will you fail, try again, and blow it big time, thus sucking dissonance. Just Say No to dumb allocation of ability scores. As a site note, the Impudite with a 10 Will ends up one out of three chance of slurping essence from any human he meets. Since only one out of three humans has essence at any given time, this gives the Impudite a one out of nine chance of scoring when he finds a meatsack to suck on. Considering how many humans there are available to him... ...and if he happens to serve a boss who gives him the bonus to his try, his chances raise from 33% to over 50% (with a +2 bonus) or 82% (with a +3 bonus). If said Impudite has a 12 (!) Will, with a +2 bonus (not hard for a starting character to do), you have a 95% chance of successfully invoking both your Charm ability and your Slurp Essence ability on most humans you meet. Now, imagine how terrifying those statistics would be if you worked your house rule bonuses into them. If you use your house rules, may I recommend you incorporate bonuses for warrior-types who pick average Strengths? ;) After all, they only succeed half the time with an average strength, and *gasp* the average enemy can dodge them half the time... so what's the point? :) So pick statistics wisely with your character in mind. No-one in their right mind would make a bruiser with mediocre Strength and Agility. You depend on your physical statistics, so they'll tend to be high. No-one in their right mind should make an essence vampire or a liar with a mediocre Will. You depend on your Will, so you'd better damned well make it high. Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1417 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.