From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Nov 17 14:48:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04282 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:48:21 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA03343 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:30:38 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:30:38 -0600 Message-Id: <199911172030.OAA03343@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1418 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, November 17 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1418 In this digest: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Words and Anti-Words Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> GET EXPOSED WITH BULK E-MAIL!!****HOLIDAY SPECIAL*** Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: Adventures (was IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host) IN>Dissonant Superiors Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? IN> Gabriel, Demon Princess of Wrath IN> Impudite Resonance? IN> Free Lilim Geases IN> Balseraph Resonance Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Re: Adventures Re: IN> Dissonant Superiors Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Adventures Re: Adventures (was IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host) Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. IN> [NPC] Monodemos, Knight of Technology ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:01:34 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? > I'd like the option :p What if I want to use lots of Corporeal or Ethereal > Songs? Beef 'em up from all the essence you'll be raking in from your realistically-chosen Will. :) > Shall we say that a reasonable level of Will is 7? (ie. Higher than average, > especially when you bear in mind that most demons have 7 Forces.) No, we shall not. The average demon may have 7 Forces, but the average demon stays cowered in Hell and never runs across this problem. Your average player-character demon has 9 Forces. And when you depend on a certain statistic to carry a character, you'll tend to raise it to a usable level. Thus, your average Impudite would have a higher Will. Eight is probably low-end, and those Impudites go hungry. > Will 10 would let the Impudite roll vs 7 to charm the average human (and > he'd still have to repeat the roll to drain Essence). But I'd consider Will > 10 to be higher than reasonable. YMMV. And it really bites if you did want > to be combat capable. Ok, so you want to be combat-capable and also have the ability to slurp up essence? Pick and choose the character you want, or make sacrifices. Can't have everything, or we'd only have one choir and one band. Sure, a 10 Will is higher than normal, but for demons, who rely upon Will to survive, it's probably closer to normal than 6 is. Especially for exceptional demons who make it to Earth. Pulling one's self out of Hell and struggling to the Corporeal Realm takes grit. > OK, so let's take the average celestial, with a total of 6 Forces in > combined Ethereal + Celestial. > > My high-willed Impudite, with Will 10, needs to roll Will - 6 now, to charm > (and then again to steal Essence). So even with a hugely high Will, he is > still rolling against 4, and the victim gets a Will roll to resist, and some > choirs get to add bonuses to the resistance roll. > > Convinced yet? No. What the heck is your Impudite doing using his resonance on a celestial? Is he asking to be kicked in the teeth? > Or do you assume that the average Impudite has Will 12? I assume that it's a rare Impudite who takes a Will below 8. And it's a successful Impudite who takes a higher Will. Why hobble your biggest trick? Would you play an angel who could never use his resonance because of a low perception? Sure, *average* may hang out in Heaven, but *exceptional* gets to go to Earth. Honestly, why would you even consider playing such a character if you really wanted to be able to slurp essence? Would you play a Malakite with a six in his physical statistics and hope to beat demon bootie? No. You'd raise your Corporeal Forces and take your lumps in your other areas. Would you play a dream-walker with a six in your Ethereal statistics and hope to be decent in people's dreams? No. You'd raise your Ethereal Forces and be weaker in other areas. Average is average, but who, in their right mind, would only be average in their area of expertise? > jo Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:37:22 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Words and Anti-Words On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, Wade Trupke wrote: > Actually, I believe they ended up changing the > name of Coca-Cola in China, because the symbols > that sound like Coca-Cola translated to "Bite the > Wax Tadpole" or something like that. Nope. See http://www.snopes.com for the truth behind this Urban Legend. > Is there a Demon of Translations, who makes sure > that movie subtitles, signs in foreign hotels, > and instuction sheets are laughably worded and > confusing? Of course - working for Kobal. Hmmm... Balseraph? > And was it his idea to market the > Chevy Nova in Spanish-speaking countries without > changing the name? Another false Urban Legend reference there... see the URL above. > Wade (and why does "Bite the Wax Tadpole" sound > like a rock group?) Everything sounds like a rock group if you have enough imagination... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! When you're having a bad day, remember: It takes 42 muscles to frown, but only 4 to pull the trigger of a decent sniper rifle. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:37:47 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? >From: "Ben Glickler" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >What the heck is your Impudite doing using his resonance on a >celestial? Is he asking to be kicked in the teeth? > Probably. But why shouldn't they be charmable? Balseraphs can lie to celestials. Habbalah can affect their emotions. So why not? >Honestly, why would you even consider playing such a character if you >really >wanted to be able to slurp essence? Would you play a Malakite with a six >in >his physical statistics and hope to beat demon bootie? Sure. I suspect the most effective Malakim probably distribute their Forces evenly anyway. You want to be able to detect the evil as well as smack it about. You can just take high combat skills to make up the difference. (And I don't want to slurp essence, I want to be able to CHARM people with a reasonable chance of success. Essence is a nice bonus but won't be as useful for getting me out of tight spots in a hurry.) Would you >play a dream-walker with a six in your Ethereal statistics and hope to be >decent in people's dreams? No. You'd raise your Ethereal Forces and be >weaker in other areas. Bad example. Will is the stat used to shape dreams. > >Average is average, but who, in their right mind, would only be average in >their area of expertise? OK, but what if I want the option of being /average/ with my resonance. That basically means, roll 6 or lower. I'd like a usable resonance, without having to totally concentrate all my stats in one area just to get an average chance of success. If I am anything other than an Impudite, I can do this /and/ still specialise in something else. So I can have a speciality AND have an averagely good chance of using my resonance. With the Impudite, if you don't specialise in Will, your resonance is practically useless. Even Kyrios and Shedim, which also need decent Will, are perfectly playable at Will 7 (I've played a 7-Force Shedite with Will 8 and never found it a problem.) The fix is based on the fact that Charm is probably more versatile than Essence stealing, and every other band gets to use its resonance off a straight Will roll. And from a GMing point of view, I wanted to beef up the NPC Impudites a bit. There's really no reason that it should be more difficult to charm a celestial than a mortal (although they may be better able to resist). jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:53:42 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. At 9:27 AM -0600 11/17/99, Dennis Groome V wrote: >nope. nada, nothing. on the other hand, there are no Superior dissonance >conditions and she can work for and do pretty much whatever she likes. Er, wrong. Free Lilim _are_ bound to one Superior's dissonance conditions. Lilith's. (Okay, you could argue and state that if she doesn't take the Rites, she doesn't get hit with the dissonance conditions. . . But considering the advantages, I'd take both.) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:16:04 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> GET EXPOSED WITH BULK E-MAIL!!****HOLIDAY SPECIAL*** From: Prodigal > Maybe so, but at least then we have let the spamming bastard who wasted our > bandwidth know that we don't like what he or she has done. > Next time, try sending email somewhere that it's wanted. please don't complain about big messages full of spam by repeating the whole thing. it gives me headaches liam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:07:48 PST From: "Micheal Knight" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? >Average is average, but who, in their right mind, would only be average in >their area of expertise? This phrase is where I feel you're utterly, blatantly wrong. I've worked on game systems before. I help run a LARP, I've worked on Fudge conversions. I've made the Amber DRPG play fair. (That's harsh work.) Rules systems MUST be balanced to a common point. A middle ground. Saying that playing a PC with average stats is stupid... that's a sign that something is tragically flawed in the rules system. I'm not the only one who'd say so. I want it made clear that I love this game dearly, and wouldn't trade, sell, or give it up. On the other hand, when you have to do workarounds to make a type of PC playable, there's a clear problem. At any rate, my questions, the initial ones, were not meant to be "Are there workarounds for this bug?" They were meant to be "How can this bug be completely repaired?" Micheal ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:10:24 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? > Probably. But why shouldn't they be charmable? Balseraphs can lie to The implications in being able to routinely charm an angel are very, very scary. > evenly anyway. You want to be able to detect the evil as well as smack it > about. You can just take high combat skills to make up the difference. 4/2/3. Presto. :-) All you really need is to raise your Celestial Forces to 4 as an Impudite, run with a 10 Will, and you're cooking with oil. Go 3/2/4 if you want to hit things. > Bad example. Will is the stat used to shape dreams. Oops. Guess I should've given m'self higher Ethereal Forces. ;) But the other examples stand. > With the Impudite, if you don't specialise in Will, your resonance is > practically useless. True. But it's such a cool resonance. And Demonic resonances are just so cool to begin with, I'd feel hobbled with a low Will on any demon. I know we always roll our eyes and make rude comments whenever the angels in our group with just a 6 or 7 perception try to make a resonance check. "Wow! I made it!" And other demonic resonances are also difficult without high Wills on the part of the demons. An average Balseraph (if you assume, which I do not, that they have a Will of 6) will only succeed in lying to a mortal 40% of the time. They'll only succeed in lying to a Celestial 16% of the time. (Yet another compelling argument as to why demons have higher Wills....) > NPC Impudites a bit. There's really no reason that it should be more > difficult to charm a celestial than a mortal (although they may be better > able to resist). The makeup of mortality is more complex than celestials. It's easier to find a hook. (The makeup of mortality is more complex than celestials. It's harder to control them. Gah.) > jo I see your rational -- other bands can just chuck a six in their Will and use their resonance sometimes if they wanna. Impudites, to have a similar chance of success, need a higher Will. On the other hand, the rewards of success for the Impudite are much greater. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:08:09 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Two more points about the Impudite Resonance. 1) Take a look at the DPG, which allows Imps to gradually lower their victims' resistance over time ("More Sophisticated Uses of Resonance", in the Imp section). 2) Keep in mind that even average-Will Imps can grab some Essence by resonating a bunch of humans in a hurry one after another (IMC we call this "Jerry works the crowd"). Imagine an Imp with Will 7. Since most humans have 3 E/C forces, he needs a 4 to charm and another 4 to drain essence. That's one chance in 36... actually a bit less, since the humans, with an average Will of 3 or so, might resist with a successful Will roll. So say 1 chance in 40. But if the Imp can work a crowd, meeting and briefly speaking with a new human every minute or so, he'll luck out and get 1d-4 Essence in well under an hour, on average. Since most Rites require a lot longer, and only give 1 Essence, this is nontrivial. It gets better fast if you crank the Imp's Will higher, btw. Here's a very rough chart of how many tries it will take an Imp to slurp Essence from a random crowd of humans. Impudite's Will Number of tries 7 about 40 8 about 15 9 about 8 10 about 4 11 about 3 12 1 or 2 So, an Imp's will makes a BIG difference... and a high-Will Imp can burn up a lot of Essence in a fight, then just dive into a crowd, chat up some strangers, and come back a few minutes later recharged and ready for another round. Obviously, having a Role that lets the Imp talk to random strangers is a *huge* help in this strategy. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:28:12 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. From: Micheal Knight > > Are those 9 Geas/3s on the Free Lilim worth any character points at > all? No, because that was the price she paid to stay free. Each of her Forces represents an investment that was put into her creation, and that investment *WILL* be returned. Mom doesn't let it happen any other way. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:43:09 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Adventures (was IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host) At 8:56 -0500 11/16/99, neel@cswv.com wrote: >One of the persistent problems in the adventures written for IN >is that the writers keep forgetting how *easy* it is for angelic >characters to discover hidden secrets and underlying motivations. It's sometimes hard to think of every nuance -- it's not just the resonances, but Songs and attunements that can uncover things the GM doesn't want dug up too soon. >This makes driving an adventure through control of information >an implausible mechanism. Actually, the problem is more trying to enforce *scarcity* of information. You can turn the problem on its head and drive the adventure through information you *expect* the PCs to dig out of the Symphony. In my experience, many players will happily chase off after the most random bits of information I give them. Of course, as soon as you depend on them to dig up some bit of information from a PC you throw into their path, they'll promptly ignore him.... And that's the other way to handle things -- if the PCs can't get access to the people with the knowledge, they can't use it prematurely. >This should be in the writer's guidelines: don't try to write >mysteries for IN; they Just Don't Work. As a matter of fact, it's quite possible, but you have to handle it carefully. If the entire plot resolution occurs when the PCs put the puzzle together, then you're right. But just looking in the back of the book to get the answer doesn't necessary solve the larger problems the mystery is a part of. There's a famous science fiction novel, "The Demolished Man," by Alfred Bester, which tackles a similar problem. In this case, the detective is a telepath, and can quickly discern the murderer in the case. However, societal constraints on telepaths don't allow him to directly testify (if I recall the plot correctly). So he has to go through a lot of work to deal with the situation -- yeah, he had the answer, but he was also forced to "show his work". The principles Bester used can be translated directly over to In Nomine. So the Seraph knows that Joe Canonfodder killed the victim. But he was paid to do it by someone he's never seen before or since, someone who never gave a name. Or he did it, but doesn't know *why* he did it. (Just try playing "Chase the Shedite" a week later....) Or he did it, and needs to be brought to justice, but the Malakite can't just whack him and be done with it -- it has to be *human* justice. And the Seraph can hardly testify in court. There are a lot of ways to control mysteries in IN. But it's true that you have to do it *very* carefully, and it's really hard to handle that in a written adventure, since a) the writer may not think of every weird trick the PCs might try, and b) he probably can't cover all the possibilities, anyway. Speaking from my experience in writing adventures, I'd say that IN isn't really any harder to write good adventures for than most other genres -- the main problem is that plotlines rarely survive contact with the players. The only variations are in the mechanisms by which the PCs go off on some wild tangent, or short-circuit the entire plotline. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:02:17 -0800 (PST) From: David Barr Subject: IN>Dissonant Superiors Here is a question. It is my understanding, that, in theory at least, a Superior can aquire dissonance; by violating their band conditions if no other way. How then would a superior loss notes of dissonance? The two things that leap to mind are working in a Tether (though I am not sure it would work) and asking another superior to remove it. In the latter case, if Lilith knows how to do this, it may well be how she got a hook on some superiors. (a fluffy ish campaign could be built around the idea that she has these hooks, and trades one o them to PCs ("Hey Dominic! Guess who you owe a favor to now?" (for the record, I have as much trouble as anyone seeing how dominic could possibly get hooked by Lilith...but its fluff, it need not withstand a lot of scrutiny)) Any other thoughts? - -Daiv ===== reply to my home address -> daiv@cruzio.com my mother once said that boy is stranger than a three toed barking frog - -Daiv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:44:40 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? > >Average is average, but who, in their right mind, would only be average in > >their area of expertise? > > This phrase is where I feel you're utterly, blatantly wrong. Utterly AND blatantly? :( [ snip credits ] > Rules systems MUST be balanced to a common point. A middle ground. Saying > that playing a PC with > average stats is stupid... Quite right. And I never said it. What I *am* saying, is that if you pick a character concept and then allocate stats to make him ineffective at it, you get what you ask for. If you play a warrior and want to beat people up, make him fast and strong. Expecting to whup bootie on an average physical frame isn't wise. If you play a scientist and want him to think up smart theorums, make him smart. Expecting to pass Chemistry 101 on an average intellect isn't wise. If you play a detective and want him to figure out clues, make him percpetive. Expecting to be a police investigator on a middling sense of what's going on isn't wise. Likewise, if you want to play a charming Impudite, make his Will high. I ain't saying average PCs are dumb. I love 'em. I *am* saying it makes little sense, from an effectiveness point of view, to expect a character to do well in an area of expertise when you don't give him much to work with. > At any rate, my questions, the initial ones, were not meant to be "Are there > workarounds for this bug?" > They were meant to be "How can this bug be completely repaired?" My question is, "Is this a bug?" > Micheal Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:29:04 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Gabriel, Demon Princess of Wrath http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AmadanSJG/Innomine/Gabriel.htm (I was doing this redeemed/Fallen thing before it became a fad. ;)) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:48:55 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Impudite Resonance? >>>Am I very wrong somehow? Is there a way these poor, benighted demons can use their resonance more effectively? Please help. The poor Impudites in my campaign are feeling a wee bit powerless.<<< It is a little underpowered, and I actually suggested changing it a bit in In Nomine 2e (or maybe even errataing the current one). I can't remember the specific proposal though. However, it's not quite as bad as it looks at first glance. Yes, running pure averages, Impudites don't have much chance of making their resonance work. But most Impudites will probably have an above-average Will (as indeed most demons do, just as most angels have an above-average Perception), and they will select victims for their likely vulnerability. I.e., they probably go looking for big, dumb, gullible types. Nonetheless, I probably would either drop the Ethereal + Celestial Forces penalty, or else say if the resonance roll succeeds, it can't be resisted. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:53:53 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Free Lilim Geases >>>Are those 9 Geas/3s on the Free Lilim worth any character points at all? If so, how many? Recall that a Calabite gets points for its starting discord, IIRC. 81 points is quite extreme, but a lesser number of points seems appropriate, and justified.<<< Hell no. Those Geases are plot hooks, pure and simple. And look at the benefits Free Lilim get in return for them: * No dissonance conditions! (But an option to accept Lilith's, in return for her Rites) * No Prince to answer to! (Except her current employer, whom she can change almost at will) * More freedom than any other non-Renegade demon can get away with * The ability to work for any Prince, and garner Rites and Attunements from anyone (granted, a Free Lilim will have to work harder to earn such rewards than a Servitor would, but who else has a realistic chance of earning, say, Andrealphus' *and* Saminga's Attunements?) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:55:59 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Balseraph Resonance >>>Balseraphim. Alas, poor Balseraphim, we hardly knew ye. Nobody in my group played one, because their resonance, is negated by a will roll, rather than resisted. We're having some trouble understanding why this might be, as it means they're pretty much ineffective against anything with a decent will, or just a few lucky rolls. You don't even have to match their check digit to resist the lies.<<< Four words: Celestial Song of Charm. Every demon's friend. Balseraphs don't have a great chance of affecting another celestial, true. That's as it should be; look how badly you can screw with someone with a Balseraph resonance. But most humans will have a Will in the 1-4 range, which means most humans are easy prey. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:39:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? At 11:44 PM -0800 11/16/99, Jo Hart wrote: >the things playable -- if you want to use the resonance with a 50% chance of >success on an average mortal, your Impudte needs a Will of at least 10. (And something that I keep squinting at...) >Compare this to the Lilim one, who actually get bonuses to the Will section >of their roll. IIRC, only a few Lilim get bonuses to their Will -- mostly, their victims get penalties. Because, you see, Lilim don't _make_ Will rolls... Vapulan ones get a bonus to Perception, though, IIRC. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:41:16 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. At 11:03 PM -0800 11/16/99, Micheal Knight wrote: >Are those 9 Geas/3s on the Free Lilim worth any character points at >all? No. I believe this is in the FAQ... > Balseraphim. Alas, poor Balseraphim, we hardly knew ye. Nobody in >my group played one, because their resonance, is negated by a will >roll, rather than resisted. [...] Because humans generally have crappy Wills. Further, anyone with a Will-resisted resonance wants to invest in the Song of Celestial Charm, for those times when you absolutely, positively, really don't want to fail. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:37:19 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Adventures At 9:41 PM -0600 11/16/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>That adventure had plot holes you could drive a truck through. >To pick one: how was Michael supposed to cover up his involvement?<<< > [...] >probably be firmer about saying "No, we can't have Michael being such a >bastard," but at that point, early in the line (and I think Elizabeth >had just taken over as LE at that point, and was preoccupied with other >things), (Worse -- I don't recall that I ever _saw_ the whole of that adventure until it was in print! Last-minute thingy, IIRC. I remember going round and about on what to call the Living Artifact Saint, though, so I saw the first chunk. Could have been major distraction during the "takeover," though. Or could be that only the Managing Editor saw it and rubberstamped it...) These days, I'd have been much more of a Djinn b**** and insisted on seeing every file before it went to print. O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:06:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dissonant Superiors At 11:02 AM -0800 11/17/99, David Barr wrote: >Here is a question. It is my understanding, that, in theory at least, >a Superior can aquire dissonance; by violating their band conditions >if no other way. How then would a superior loss notes of dissonance? If Superiors acquire dissonance, which is really up to the GM, they can certainly remove it via the Wash Away In Essence trick. (p. 59 in the main book. Main text, second column.) And they have _plenty_ of Essence. For more information on such things, do check out the Game Master's Guide, which should be showing up in stores any day now. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:02:47 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. At 9:27 AM -0600 11/17/99, Dennis Groome V wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Micheal Knight >>Are those 9 Geas/3s on the Free Lilim worth any character points at >>all? > >nope. nada, nothing. on the other hand, there are no Superior dissonance >conditions and she can work for and do pretty much whatever she likes. (Basically, the Geases are the Plot Hooks by which a GM can order the character around, just as a Superior is the Plot Hook by which other characters get ordered around.) However, Lilim _can_ take Lilith's Rites and Dissonance Conditions. (So they can have dissonance conditions. If they want. They don't _have_ to.) As a note, if you've not got the IPG (Infernal Player's Guide) yet, you probably want it. At 11:53 AM -0600 11/17/99, Shadowstar wrote: >At 9:27 AM -0600 11/17/99, Dennis Groome V wrote: >>on the other hand, there are no Superior dissonance conditions > > Er, wrong. Free Lilim _are_ bound to one Superior's dissonance conditions. > > Lilith's. But not automatically. They choose it. (At character creation, or afterwards if they get a chance to talk to Mother.) So he's not wrong. Entirely. Oh, and as a note, it's Impudite, not Imp. Imps are these little demonlings that may fledge into Impudites when they grow up. And they're lowercase... (Both nitpicking and attempting to reduce confusion... Imps have no resonance, y'see.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:38:12 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. >> Are those 9 Geas/3s on the Free Lilim worth any character points at >> all? Nope, and in fact Lilith is being generous. A Geas/3 would give 9 character points, and a Force costs 10 character points. Lilith spots her daughters 9 character points (an entire other Geas/3). She's obviously a wonderfully loving mother. And about the resonance of Balserpahs (may favorite Band), its obscenely powerful. Look at the IPG and their sophisticated uses: Self-Deception, Artifice and Lies upon Lies. Start the ball rolling with something the individual is inclined to believe. Move it a step up and show 'evidence' that it links to something else. Now keep building and building and you have a celestially powered version of the Foot in the Door Effect (the social psych phenominium that is often mistaken for Brain Washing). You do this with angels and you can twist an angel around so much that by the time they realize that they were duped by a Balseraph, the demon is long gone and their in the middle of bombing a rival archangel's tether. I'd bet Balseraphs test themselves against Seraphs fairly often, once a Liar gets the ball rolling their victom can be stuck under their power for a long long time. Most Balseraphs worht their salt probably have a box filled with 'evidence' somewhere, useful things that prove their world view (and help convince others of it). Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:05:25 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? David Edelstein wrote: > However, it's not quite as bad as it looks at first glance. Yes, running > pure averages, Impudites don't have much chance of making their > resonance work. But most Impudites will probably have an above-average > Will (as indeed most demons do, just as most angels have an > above-average Perception), and they will select victims for their likely > vulnerability. I.e., they probably go looking for big, dumb, gullible > types. > > Nonetheless, I probably would either drop the Ethereal + Celestial > Forces penalty, or else say if the resonance roll succeeds, it can't be > resisted. This is a reasonable suggestion even though it is not (yet) canon. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:07:52 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >IIRC, only a few Lilim get bonuses to their Will -- mostly, their victims >get penalties. Because, you see, Lilim don't _make_ Will rolls... > Ah, right. Sorry. OK, so Lilim don't even have to make a roll to use the second part of their resonance, and the recipient of the geas resists at a disadvantage. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:18:46 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com Subject: Re: IN> Adventures David Edelstein wrote: > >>>>That adventure had plot holes you could drive a truck through. >To pick one: how was Michael supposed to cover up his involvement?<<< > >Yes, Michael is sneaky and manipulative in that adventure, but he >*doesn't* lie. And as for how he covers his involvement -- simple; he >doesn't answer questions. Unfortunately, this is insufficient. Mercurians can detect relationships, and this means that a Mercurian who investigates and gets a high check digit on someone (other than Michael) connected to the plot will be able to figure out that Michael is responsible. This is a very substantial risk for a very modest benefit, and it just seems that the benefit/risk ratio of the scheme is very low. Anyone Machivellian enough to attempt such a scheme should also be rational enough not to use such an ill-conceived plan. And if a nonrational disgust with Yves's equivocation is Michael's main motivation, then simply showing up in person and taking whatever he wanted would be a) more likely to succeed, b) avoid all the awkward refusals to answer that could sap political support from the other militant archangels, and c) more emotionally satisfying than a secret plan that requires absolute silence forever. IMO, of course. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:34:12 -0600 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: Adventures (was IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host) >There's a famous science fiction novel, "The Demolished Man," by Alfred >Bester, which tackles a similar problem. In this case, the detective >is a telepath, and can quickly discern the murderer in the case. However, >societal constraints on telepaths don't allow him to directly testify >(if I recall the plot correctly). So he has to go through a lot of work >to deal with the situation -- yeah, he had the answer, but he was also >forced to "show his work". The principles Bester used can be translated >directly over to In Nomine. For a slightly less esoteric reference, watch a Columbo mystery sometime. He is obviuosly a Seraph (with the Disheveled discord at a high level) with a high perception as he always knows who the murderer is after asking him one question. It just takes him the rest of the show to find enough evidence to make it stick. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:21:43 -0600 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. >>nope. nada, nothing. on the other hand, there are no Superior dissonance >>conditions and she can work for and do pretty much whatever she likes. > > Er, wrong. Free Lilim _are_ bound to one Superior's dissonance conditions. > > Lilith's. > > (Okay, you could argue and state that if she doesn't take the Rites, she >doesn't get hit with the dissonance conditions. . . But considering the >advantages, I'd take both.) And, of course, they also don't get any Attunements or have a Heart. Whether it all balances out in the wash is something I'm unsure of, but there are some limitations. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:45:31 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com Subject: IN> [NPC] Monodemos, Knight of Technology Monodemos Shedite of Technology Knight of Combustion Demon of Groupminds Corporeal Forces 2 -- Strength 5 Agility 3 Ethereal Forces 6 -- Intelligence 12 Precision 12 Celestial Forces 5 -- Will 12 Perception 8 Vessel: n/a Skills: Knowledge(Computer Science)/6, Knowledge(Neuroscience)/6, Medicine/6, Electronics/6, Detect Lies/3, Lying/5, Dodge/2, Fighting/1 Songs: Celestial Charm/6, Ethereal Attraction/6, Corporeal Dreams/3, Ethereal Dreams/3, Celestial Dreams/4, Celestial Tongues/3 Attunements: Invention, Shedite of Technology Distinctions: Knight of Combustion Appearance - ---------- Monodemos's celestial appearance is that of several dozen lidless human eyes floating in the air. Each of its eyes are connected to one another by strands of nervous fibers and silver wires. Its speech is high and fluting, generated by the vibrations of the wires that connect its eyes together. Humans who have seen its celestial form typically have nightmares about the unblinking regard of all its eyes, pure bright eyes that see them with an intense and unnerving intellect. Story - ----- Until just a few decades ago Monodemos was just another demonic graduate student being exploited in Vapula's Institute of Applied Metaphysics. However, it was that rarest of creatures -- instead of stealing ideas it invented them. And it had ideas in such prodigious quantities that it was able to generate innovations solely to throw others off its real research interests. Once it had completed the basic feasibility studies, it waited until Vapula appeared at the Institute for an awards banquet. It sneaked past his guards and made its pitch directly to the Demon Prince of Technology. Humanity, Monodemos argued, was basically a flawed design. Each individual human had a very limited intellect, and then used most of it thwarting its fellow creatures. This was wasteful and inefficient, but if the human personality could be suppressed, then human minds could be networked. This network could then be directed by a single controlling demonic intellect, and thus vastly multiply Infernal capabilities. Vapula listened, considered briefly, and then broke out into a brilliant smile. It was obvious, said the Prince, that Monodemos had discovered what God had /really/ meant when he commanded mankind to selfless behavior. It was clear that the Institute had served its function, and in an instant Vapula destroyed the entire research lab and all its inhabitants -- leaving only Monodemos alive. And with the word of Groupminds. This is not a very powerful word, as yet. Only a few science fiction fans are even aware it exists as a concept, and it has yielded Monodemos no Rites or Attunements. But Monodemos is very pleased nonetheless, for it believes that it has the Word that is the shape of damnation yet to come. But first, there are a number of inventions that must be made before it can reach its ascendancy, and it has made an extensive network of alliances throughout Hell to make sure this happens. To discover reliable means of suppressing human volition, it has made alliances with forward-looking demons of the Media and Theft, exchanging its expertise about the human cognitive system for their help in learning how to crush and steal the human spirit. Demons of Factions have been consulted for their understanding of society, and of course other demons of Technology have been tapped for their expertise with cybernetics and network design. There is a great deal to be done before mankind's flaws are repaired and they become truly useful, but Monodemos is sure that it will one day succeed. Personality & Behavior - ---------------------- Monodemos is brilliant, tireless, and utterly devoted to the future it is building. It has possessed neurologists and market researchers and computer scientists, and brainwashed them all to work on the needed technologies. It has possessed venture capitalists in order to funnel money to these scientists, and possessed lawyers and judges and government officials to overcome any legal obstacles. The only time that it relaxes is to talk to others about its vision, and it will spend hours demonstrating its impressive knowledge and enthusiasm for its chosen task. Monodemos does not even corrupt its victims in the usual sense of leading them into committing heinous crimes. The day-to-day business of evil is of little interest to it -- money and sex and fame and power are all tools it must use to yoke lesser demons to its harness, but are of no intrinsic interest to its own pure intellect. Instead, Monodemos wears away its victim's sense of self, so that they are receptive to control messages from external sources. This does tend to have the side-effect of turning the victim into a sociopath -- without a strong sense of self its victims tend to lose the ability to empathize with others -- but Monodemos does not directly incite antisocial behavior. If confronted about its corruption, Monodemos will acknowledge that this as an unfortunate defect in its current methods. But it will be steadfastly claim that only continued human experimentation can resolve it. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1418 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.