From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Nov 18 09:26:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10385 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:26:27 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA28160 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:05:54 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:05:54 -0600 Message-Id: <199911181505.JAA28160@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1419 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 18 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1419 In this digest: IN> Lilim Resonance (Re: Impudite Resonance?) Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re:IN> Dissonant Superiors Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. IN> Tether for Gabriel IN> A Gaming Moment Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: Adventures (was IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host) Re: IN> Tether for Gabriel IN> Shedite/Kyrio question IN> New Impudite Resonance Rules Re: IN> Re: How To Meet Beautiful Women Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host [Pure Fluff] Re: IN> Tether for Gabriel Re: IN> Gabriel, Demon Princess of Wrath RE: IN> Janus' Foil RE: IN> Janus' Foil Re: IN> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com RE: IN> Janus' Foil IN> Bright Bands Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> David Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Tether for Gabriel Re: IN> Shedite/Kyrio question Re: IN> Bright Bands Re: IN> Bright Bands Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:47:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Lilim Resonance (Re: Impudite Resonance?) At 12:07 PM -0800 11/17/99, Jo Hart wrote: >OK, so Lilim don't even have to make a roll to use the second part of their >resonance, and the recipient of the geas resists at a disadvantage. Though, generally, she _does_ have to go through some contortions to _get_ that Geas-hook in the first place. It's not like she just rolls, and then has the hook. She has to go do something first. (And then there are the times that the Lilim sees a Need she can't, or won't, fulfill.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:45:22 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. At 12:38 PM -0700 11/17/99, Tim Groth wrote: >I'd bet Balseraphs test themselves against Seraphs fairly often, Just remember that Seraphim (IM!) get a bonus of Celestial Forces to their Will. If they're a Celestial Forces 4 creature, and haven't gone too hard to Perception, they generally resist. Get a 10-Force Seraph who's got 5 Celestial Forces, and the Balseraph is looking at a much better chance of dissonance... (Check that boosted check digit!) Most of my Seraphim of Judgment tend to be Celestial Forces monsters, due to their Choir Attunement (adding Cel-Forces to their Perception for resonance); it's just gravy that they usually look at Balseraphs and invite, "Go ahead! Lie to me!" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:43:57 -0800 From: "Glenn D. Brown" Subject: Re:IN> Dissonant Superiors This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF310A.2DF79EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I seem to recall some passages in Heaven and Hell that hint that = Laurence is occasionally dissonant. Spending a day meditiating in = Uriel's Castle of Purity will cure one point of dissonance, but only a = few former Servitors of Purity know it. And Laurence occasionally visits = the Castle to 'ponder the responsibilies of command' or something. =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF310A.2DF79EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I seem to recall some passages = in Heaven and=20 Hell that hint that Laurence is occasionally dissonant. Spending a day=20 meditiating in Uriel's Castle of Purity will cure one point of = dissonance, but=20 only a few former Servitors of Purity know it. And Laurence occasionally = visits=20 the Castle to 'ponder the responsibilies of command' or something.  =
- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF310A.2DF79EE0-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:05:32 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. >Most of my Seraphim of Judgment tend to be Celestial Forces monsters, >due to their Choir Attunement (adding Cel-Forces to their Perception for >resonance); it's just gravy that they usually look at Balseraphs and >invite, "Go ahead! Lie to me!" Which is why Balserpahs start with things that are True, then go to what is true, then which the Serpah wishes was true. Always with plenty of evidence. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 17:34:48 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: IN> Tether for Gabriel Here's a good candidate for a 'natural' tether: What fire has burned for 2,000 years? The oldest known continuously burning fire is an underground coal fire in New South Wales, Australia. This fire apparently started over 2,000 years ago when lightning struck a large coal seam at a point where it reached the surface of the earth. Today the fire is more than 500 feet (152 meters) underground, and is still slowly eating away at the coal. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:15:24 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: IN> A Gaming Moment Sorry to those uniterested people, but I had to share last night's gaming moment with the list. The player of our Elohite of Destiny is leaving, and decided to go out with a bang. He has always played the Elohite a little close to the emotional edge (he had a high Emote skill, so he got away with it quite often), and he decided he was going to Fall before the night was through. After much effort, he finally pushed himself over the edge and went outcast, then Fell, going celestial to escape. Our resident Malakite went celestial to chase him (incurring dissonance in the process, he serves Dreams) and managed to score a couple of hits before a Habbalite of Fate who had been watching the group hit the Malakite with Celestial Charm and then Sadness (from his resonance). The Fallen Elohite PC then hit the Malakite with Celestial Light, adding insult to injury for the Malakite, whose favourite Song was Celestial Light until he switched to Blandine's service. The Habbalite told the newly Fallen to follow him to Hell and descended. The PC Habbalite made his rolls and followed. The Malakite shrugged off the resonance and prepared to suicidily follow into Hell rather than allow his former comrade to escape. He went for the Perception roll and got 66 check 1. Big failure! The PC Habbalite escaped, the Malakite ascended to Heaven dissonant, angry and saddened, and the session ended for the evening. As I said, sorry to those not interested, but it was a great gaming moment for our group. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:07:19 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. At 3:05 PM -0700 11/17/99, Tim Groth wrote: >>Most of my Seraphim of Judgment tend to be Celestial Forces monsters, >>due to their Choir Attunement (adding Cel-Forces to their Perception for >>resonance); it's just gravy that they usually look at Balseraphs and >>invite, "Go ahead! Lie to me!" > >Which is why Balserpahs start with things that are True, then go to what is >true, then which the Serpah wishes was true. Always with plenty of >evidence. Won't help against resonance _and_ a Will that are probably both an effective 15. Not unless the Seraph is already psychologically unstable. (And are Dominican Seraphim allowed to wander around like that? Not often...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:32:23 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: Adventures (was IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host) Eeyore wrote: > >There's a famous science fiction novel, "The Demolished Man," by Alfred > >Bester, which tackles a similar problem. In this case, the detective > >is a telepath, and can quickly discern the murderer in the case. However, > >societal constraints on telepaths don't allow him to directly testify > >(if I recall the plot correctly). So he has to go through a lot of work > >to deal with the situation -- yeah, he had the answer, but he was also > >forced to "show his work". The principles Bester used can be translated > >directly over to In Nomine. Unfortunately, many Celestials are in no way constrained by -human- law. Nothing stops a lot of them from dealing out their own justice as long as it isn't Dissonant. Now Judgies may want to do this for their Rite, but I'm sure an equal number of them just punish an offender as they deserve. And then there are the Gabrielites... - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:13:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Tether for Gabriel On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, John Karakash wrote: > Here's a good candidate for a 'natural' tether: > > What fire has burned for 2,000 years? > The oldest known continuously burning fire is an underground > coal fire in New South Wales, Australia. This fire apparently started > over 2,000 years ago when lightning struck a large coal seam at a point > where it reached the surface of the earth. Today the fire is more than > 500 feet (152 meters) underground, and is still slowly eating away at > the coal. I'd think that this is a better one for Belial than for Gabriel. It's just burning, destruction for the sake of destruction. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Unofficial Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:36:28 -0800 From: Steel Angel Subject: IN> Shedite/Kyrio question Quick question...what about the brain dead of those in comas? How do you corrupt that? Do you start where the resident mind left off? How can you harm someone like that easily? Just wondering. While I'm at it, how about other Resonances like Impudites and Malakim? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:38:03 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> New Impudite Resonance Rules OK, the renewed discussion about the weakness of the Impudite resonance has gotten me thinking. The main problem is that the Impudite charming ability isn't that powerful, compared to other diabolical resonances. It's pretty balanced. But there is a fear that if their resonance is not restrained, Impudites can treat any random passer-by as an Essence ATM machine. So, here's a set of changes, which weakens them in some ways, but makes them more effective in others. Basically, it will make it easier for them to charm, and prey on humans, but much more dangerous to try it with Soldiers and celestials and the like (although their resonance will also give them more information in the process). It also makes the mechanics a little smoother and more consistent with similar In Nomine powers. I've included a couple of variants for each change. Please feel free to comment. (All the usual disclaimers; this ain't canon, etc.) 1. Impudites can now charm with a simple resonance roll, with no penalty. The victim may resist with a Will roll. This is not a contest; as with the Balseraph resonance, the victim only has to make his Will roll. * Option: Make it a Contest. Not recommended, since combined with removing the Ethereal + Celestial Forces penalty, it will make their Charming ability *much* more potent than before -- almost a sure thing against mundanes. (Which wouldn't be bad if this was their only power, but since they also have the Essence-draining ability, neither power should be too overwhelming by itself.) 2. Against a charmed victim, the Impudite may attempt to drain Essence. This is a resonance roll with a penalty equal to the amount of Essence the victim is currently holding, and the victim may resist simply by making a Will roll. * This means that "fatter" targets are more difficult to drain (and a fully-loaded celestial virtually impossible), and makes timing more of a factor, especially against a known victim. It also gives Impudites the power to learn just how much Essence an individual is carrying, and he'll know he's run into a non-mundane if he finds himself making a resonance roll at -9.... The GM *could* fix this by making the Impudite's Essence-draining rolls himself, in secret, but most players probably won't like that. * Option 1: Keep the Ethereal Forces + Celestial Forces penalty. Not a bad option if you take away the other drawbacks, as I have, but I just don't like it because it's clunky. * Option 2: Make the penalty equal to the victim's TOTAL Forces. Makes draining much more difficult. * Option 3: Make the Will roll to resist a Contest. Might be an adequate compensating factor if you use Option 2. 3. If the victim is able to control his own Essence -- i.e., *anyone* with Symphonic awareness -- he *first* gets a Perception roll to detect the Essence theft. If he succeeds, then (1) he adds the check digit of his Perception roll to his Will roll to resist the transfer; (2) celestials may use their resonance on the Impudite; (3) if the Will roll succeeds, not only does the victim prevent the transfer, but he's also "uncharmed" as well; (4) even if he fails the resistance roll, the transfer of Essence will make a disturbance (since it's now a forcible theft rather than a seduction), and the victim will still *know* what the Impudite did... (5) If he does make his Will roll AND beats the Impudite's CD with it, then he's not only not drained, uncharmed, and fully aware of the Impudite's act, but he also gets to *reverse* the Essence transfer, taking Essence from the Impudite equal to the CD of his Will roll! The net result of this is that Impudites will be able to charm humans pretty easily, angels and demons only with difficulty. Stealing Essence from humans is not easy (possibly a little more difficult than before), but it's safer. They can't count on being able to suck up a quick few points of Essence when they're in a hurry, but an Impudite who has an hour or two to spend in a crowded place will probably be able to recharge himself. EXCEPT that they'd better be sure they're not accidentally trying to drain a non-mundane. And draining celestials will be extremely difficult to impossible. So your average Impudite might be pretty comfortable gliding through a shopping mall draining his fill of Essence, until the first time he runs into a Saint or a Soldier, or worse, a Malakite... * * * * * Here's an additional option which does NOT work with the rules above; use it only as another "More Sophisticated Use of Resonance" if you stick to the old rules: Impudites may now attempt what some might term the "Slam, bam, thank you ma'am" method of instant seduction, by trying to drain someone of Essence *without* charming them first. This requires the Impudite to touch the victim (and he does *not* get the normal +2 bonus to his check digit for doing so). Basically, he is trying to "seduce" the victim psychically, just for a moment. The victim may resist as usual, but if the resistance is successful, then in addition to the usual consequences, the demon also suffers a point of dissonance as his attempt to insinuate himself into his victim's soul is spurned; essentially, he's been caught engaging in psychic rape. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 13:40:21 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Re: How To Meet Beautiful Women WTF? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 99 13:02:20 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host [Pure Fluff] - ---------- > >And the answer is Rudabaga > > No its 42. > > Timothy, Angel of Rambling No that's the meaning of life Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:18:07 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Tether for Gabriel At 7:13 PM -0400 11/17/99, Richard Gant wrote: >On Wed, 17 Nov 1999, John Karakash wrote: > >> Here's a good candidate for a 'natural' tether: >> >> What fire has burned for 2,000 years? >I'd think that this is a better one for Belial than for Gabriel. It's >just burning, destruction for the sake of destruction. Yeah, but guess who started it? Gee. . . Didn't a Lighting Strike start it?!? Hrmn. . . Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:35:59 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel, Demon Princess of Wrath >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AmadanSJG/Innomine/Gabriel.htm > >(I was doing this redeemed/Fallen thing before it became a fad. ;)) And doing it well. Let me recommend this one. It's a keeno writeup, and it's part of Dave's interesting "Forests of the Night" adventure. Remind me, btw -- who is collecting these things? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:43:08 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Janus' Foil "It was in the IPG, the Prince of Sloth. To counteract Janus being all active and interested in changing things." Thanks. Another book I need to buy. sigh. Trent Ofanite of doubt If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:45:53 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: RE: IN> Janus' Foil >From: "Trent" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > > >"It was in the IPG, the Prince of Sloth. To counteract Janus being all >active and interested in changing things." > I actually wonder whether Corruption wasn't a better opposite. The same theme of change being inevitable and unavoidable, but with Corruption, change always makes things worse. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:48:26 -0800 From: "Tom Swenson" Subject: Re: IN> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: Prodigal To: Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 11:00 AM Subject: Re: IN> To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > From: Elizabeth McCoy > > > > At 2:09 AM -0800 11/16/99, Steel Angel wrote: > > >goldencalf@hushmail.com wrote: > > > > > >> Get HushMail. The world's first free, fully encrypted, ... > > > > > >Okay, this just begs to be responded to by the list itself in general. > Whatcha > > >think, Archangel Beth? > > > > Send _EMAIL_ as much as you want. Me, I'm going to look up their upstreams > > and complain about a spamsite. > > No need to go after the entire site; they killed the account of the person > who sent that. :::) Um, That was an accident honestly. I'm sorry it happened, but don't bother them about. I'm sorry it happened. It wasn't spam, just a screwup. Oh yeah, I had wondered why the account died, oh, well. And once more I apoligise for the irritation I caused. Really. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:00:22 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: RE: IN> Janus' Foil >I actually wonder whether Corruption wasn't a better opposite. The same >theme of change being inevitable and unavoidable, but with Corruption, >change always makes things worse. Corruption is more of a peversion of Janus's Word, while Sloth is a direct counter to it. Also there is no information on when Beelzebub was made prince of corruption. It is possible that it is post origional Fall and therefor Lucifer first put Sloth there as a natural counter, and later Corruption pitched in. Obviously Beelzebub dies somehow, and its possible he was a minor prince holding a major Word. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:06:28 -0500 From: Ehrbar Subject: IN> Bright Bands Okay, this has been bouncing around the ol' noggin . . . how about demons that stay "demonic" after they Redeem? I know it's not Canon, but bear with me. Lilim, who have no angelic counterpart chior stay Lilim when they redeem. And, Hellborn demons aren't broken angels -- they're copies of broken angels or demonlings that have grown into beings that resemble broken angels. That is, they aren't really members of Bands -- they're individuals who have similar personal Symphonies and thus can be classed into Bands with the Fallen (see IPG p.22 for what sparked this). So, what happens if a demon is sufficiently different from his Band-mates that, while he seems to be of that Band in Hell, he doesn't Redeem as the corresponding Chior? Well, maybe, like a Lilim, he stays a member of his Band, and just goes Bright. Bright Balseraphs (The Revealers) The Bright Balseraphs still won't lie to you from their perspective -- only now their perspective is that of the Symphony. They thus gain an additional dissonance condition identical to that of a Seraph. These angels thus use their resonance to make people believe the *truth* -- that the Holocaust did happen, that God is good, that Beth is the greatest line editor in the history of gaming - -- whatever the truth may be. Bright Balseraphs are often partnered with a Seraph. Bright Djinn (The Hunters) The Djinn who go bright now Care, so, much like the Cherubim they now generate dissonance for betraying their Superior, friends, ideals, or selves. However, since they can attune to a target without having to protect it, they can be used to track the unsavory characters that Cherubim cannot. Bright Calabim (The Enforcers) Bright Calabim cannot be stripped of their Discord, but in the process of Redemption it often changes in nature. An especially common remanifestation is the Burning Touch (APG p.50) discord. Bright Calabim are often added to strike teams of Malakim and Ofanim as additional muscle. Like Malakim, they cannot suffer an evil to live without taking dissonance. Bright Habbalah (The Strengtheners) Fortunately, they take the questioning without annoyance. "Yes, I'm an angel. No, *they* aren't, they're deluded, I serve an Archangel. No, Vapula's a Demon Prince -- *I* serve Dominic. No, he isn't secretly a Balseraph." And they better -- like Elohim, they cannot act subjectively without incurring dissonance. Bright Habbalah use their resonance to strengthen humans, by inducing courage, or calm, or other emotions to constructive ends. David and Novalis both find Bright Habblah useful, although for *very* different reasons. Bright Shedim (The Nonexistent) Shedim either become Kyriotates, die during Redemption, or quickly yo-yo, because of their Dissonance conditions. If a "bright Shedim" manifests, they are immediately Force-stripped into a reliever (or oblivion) by the redeeming Archangel. While a Bright Shedim might be useful, the corruption they would spread in the name of *Heaven* is unacceptable. Bright Impudites (The Charmers of Man) Most Impudites readily transform into Mercurians. The few who don't immediately have a new dissonance condition imposed -- they take dissonance when use their resonance to steal Essence from a human. However, they can voluntarily *fail* the roll with an automatic check digit of 1 in an attempt to gift the human with Essence, and they can still try to siphon Essence from diabolicals. A trusted Bright Impudite will often work with a group of Soldiers of God, his Charm helping him lead them and his Essence helping them succeed. Steven Ehrbar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:22:50 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? From: Ben Glickler > I assume that it's a rare Impudite who takes a Will below 8. And it's a > successful Impudite who takes a higher Will. Why hobble your biggest trick? > Would you play an angel who could never use his resonance because of a low > perception? yes. i play a character because i like the personality, not because i like the twinkie powers that come attached with it liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:53:30 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> David From: > > Why does everyone always pick on poor old Darwin? Survival of the fittest has nothing at all to do with survivial of the > strongest, or the biggest, or the toughest. it does, in a way, in that it all comes down to you being better than everyone else. evolution is based on those who don't make the grade dying. it works in nature, but it's kind of harsh in human society > And those communities that prosper will pass on their "genes" in their laws, their constitutions, their customs etc. And when a > community can no longer fight with others it will die. yes, but this is creating small, antagonistic groups. strong groups, sure, but groups that get better and better at killing other groups. that's not creating communities, that's creating Factions. > Magog forgot the reason that they gave hardship to humans - to make them stronger, and instead focused on teh hardship. > And Magog wasn't a malakite. so you're saying david would have fallen by now if he wasn't a malk? > I can see David setting up conflicts, maybe even wars, within nations, or trying to crossbreed them and see if the resulting > nation is in any way stronger. i don't think david has this kind of control over human society. he could maybe get a war going, but it would rapidly spiral out of any control. i think he's too much of a control freak to let that much randomness come into his plans > And Facism doesn't have "societies where the strong prey on the weak, where the "cream" rises to the top on the bodies of > those below them. a society like that is pretty much inherently selfish and internally divided." I'd say that is Facism. maybe. i'm certainly not defending fascism or anything. my point was that capitalism seems to produce internally divisive societies, whereas fascism seems to produce societies that are internally very strong (mainly by killing all the bits that don't agree with them). if you believe david's quite happy to go around starting wars, i don't see why he'd have any problem with fascism > facism is often disguised as something else, eg: Napoleon's republic could be argued to be a facist state. i'll have to take your word for it :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:20:53 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. From: Ben Glickler > So pick statistics wisely with your character in mind. No-one in their > right mind would make a bruiser with mediocre Strength and Agility. You > depend on your physical statistics, so they'll tend to be high. No-one in > their right mind should make an essence vampire or a liar with a mediocre > Will. You depend on your Will, so you'd better damned well make it high. i don't know, it smacks of min-maxing to me. a bruiser character is a personality, an impudite is (kind-of) a race. why should it be a choice between impudite and bruiser? surely they're different things entirely. you should be able to have a bruiser impudite, or a comedian impudite, or a ninja impudite, or whatever. it seems strange to me that all impudites should have very strong will. liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:51:31 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Liam wrote: > i don't know, it smacks of min-maxing to me. a bruiser character is a > personality, an impudite is (kind-of) a race. why should it be a choice > between impudite and bruiser? surely they're different things entirely. you > should be able to have a bruiser impudite, or a comedian impudite, or a > ninja impudite, or whatever. it seems strange to me that all impudites > should have very strong will. Actually, it isn't since Hell runs on a 'survival of the fittest' paradigm. Low-Will impudites get less use out of their resonance than other impudites and are therefore somewhat less likely to survive. If I was a prince with a low-Will impudite, I would strongly _encourage_ them to beef it up before considering a field position on Earth. Note that this is NOT to say that it is a hard and fast rule. Some impudites might be so talented at non-impudite things, that they can succeed. But why have a fighting impudite when a calabite does it so much better? Why does a prince look twice at a conniving impudite when a balseraph is MUCH more likely to do the same schemes with less effort? - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:51:51 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Liam wrote: > i don't know, it smacks of min-maxing to me. a bruiser character is a > personality, an impudite is (kind-of) a race. why should it be a > choice between impudite and bruiser? But the Bands and Choirs were set up to be personality types. Since they are also spirits, personality and race are sort of the same thing. Not that you couldn't have an impudite bruiser. He'd charm people by posing as a loveable big lunk or two-fisted, heroic scrapper, or whatever. His being an impudite means he ought to be seductive, but there are many ways of doing that. (Cf. my repeated assertion that Malakim don't have to be humorless to be valiant; they could be valiant in a muskateering or James-Bondish mode.) As to the mechanics, one thing to keep in mind is development. Say you start with your bruiser impudite with high Corporeal and low Celestial, so he bruises better than he sucks essences. If you don't like that, work on building up his Celestial forces. Impudites are designed to be seductively vampiric. If you want one to be a bruiser as well, you are asking for the character to have two main schticks, not one. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not unreasonable to say it's something you work toward, not something you start with. Alternately, talk the GM into letting everyone start with more points to build their characters, so you can afford two or more schticks. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:54:52 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Tether for Gabriel Richard Gant wrote: > I'd think that this is a better one for Belial than for Gabriel. It's > just burning, destruction for the sake of destruction. I think it pre-dates Belial (I don't have my timeline... foo). Plus your argument is specious in that Gabriel has _volcano_ tethers. ;) - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:01:32 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Shedite/Kyrio question Steel Angel wrote: > > Quick question...what about the brain dead of those in comas? How do you > corrupt that? Do you start where the resident mind left off? How can you > harm someone like that easily? Just wondering. While I'm at it, how about > other Resonances like Impudites and Malakim? The truly brain-dead are 'gone' and generate no essence, can't be resonated (except as a just a body) for information, etc. As to whether you can possess one.... I'd say that the situation would determine it (i.e. GM's call), but that Shedim would take dissonance for not being able to corrupt the host. Basically, the resonances (and the spell) of possession are designed to take over _functional_ hosts. Ones so badly damaged that the mortal occupants are gone are like ones that are damaged so much that the heart stops working. If you get an odd situation where the body is fine (for example the soul is trapped elsewhere), then they would probably work. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:09:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Bright Bands My favorites are the Bright Balseraphs, who are both truthful and convincing. Ehrbar wrote: > Bright Shedim (The Nonexistent) > Shedim either become Kyriotates, die during Redemption, or > quickly yo-yo, because of their Dissonance conditions. If a "bright > Shedim" manifests, they are immediately Force-stripped into a reliever > (or oblivion) by the redeeming Archangel. While a Bright Shedim might > be useful, the corruption they would spread in the name of *Heaven* is > unacceptable. Might Bright Shedim be like Bright Impudites working on the inside? They'd then work to urge the host a little further on the upward road every day. ("Every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better." Slogan of an early self-improvement program dating to the '30s or so.) Maybe that's too far off from the Band definition, but it isn't much further off than being Habbalah and NOT being deluded. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:10:43 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Bright Bands Ehrbar wrote: > Bright Shedim (The Nonexistent) > Shedim either become Kyriotates, die during Redemption, or > quickly yo-yo, because of their Dissonance conditions. If a "bright > Shedim" manifests, they are immediately Force-stripped into a reliever > (or oblivion) by the redeeming Archangel. While a Bright Shedim might > be useful, the corruption they would spread in the name of *Heaven* is > unacceptable. Depends on what you mean by 'corruption'. Take the word propoganda, for example. It's simple a method of convincing somebody of something, whether it's the truth or a lie. Perhaps Bright Shedim change people's worldview. They encourage them to do GOOD things and make themselves better people. So they would seek out the real lowlifes (to better extend their time on Earth) and show them a new path. Of course, most humans who are corrupt will backslide, but some might not... If you think about it, this sort of possession most resembles the 'holy force' people claim to have experienced. Mothers lifting cars off of kids, warriors lasting through a entire battle with mortal wounds, hardened criminals risking their lives to save complete strangers... the list goes on and on. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:12:39 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. >From: John Karakash >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Actually, it isn't since Hell runs on a 'survival of the >fittest' paradigm. Low-Will impudites get less use out of their >resonance than other impudites and are therefore somewhat less >likely to survive. Oh the other hand, surely it would encourage them to get sneakier and less dependent on it. I'd take a wild guess that high Int will get you out of more jams than high Will. In any case, this argument works for all demons. It's just that for any other band, you can get a decent use out of the resonance with Will 7 or greater. That's what needs to be fixed IMO. > But why have a fighting impudite when a >calabite does it so much better? OK, why have a fighting anything if a Calabite can do it better? >Why does a prince look twice >at a conniving impudite when a balseraph is MUCH more likely to >do the same schemes with less effort? Except that Balseraphs are paranoid, inherently untrustworthy, and don't always play well with other demons. Besides which, you might have a job which requires the operative to get in with a mortal crowd. I'd still say that native cunning (ie. Int) and some skill at tactics and fast talk will make any character an effective manipulator. If you want a charming character of any type, all you have to do is give it /average/ Will, plenty of Charisma, and probably some skill at Seduction. However, all other things being equal, I'd guess that the Impudite will still get on better with mortals, even if it never uses the resonance -- it's in their nature to have a 'feel' for mortals. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:19:35 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. >From: Earl Wajenberg >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Not that you couldn't have an impudite bruiser. He'd charm people >by posing as a loveable big lunk or two-fisted, heroic scrapper, or >whatever. His being an impudite means he ought to be seductive, >but there are many ways of doing that. Sure. At the very least, Impudites of Baal pretty much need to be combat capable, I'd assume. Otherwise, what's the point of Baals' Impudite attunement. > >(Cf. my repeated assertion that Malakim don't have to be humorless >to be valiant; they could be valiant in a muskateering or James-Bondish >mode.) > >As to the mechanics, one thing to keep in mind is development. >Say you start with your bruiser impudite with high Corporeal and >low Celestial, so he bruises better than he sucks essences. >If you don't like that, work on building up his Celestial forces. > >Impudites are designed to be seductively vampiric. If you want one >to be a bruiser as well, you are asking for the character to have >two main schticks, not one. Ah, the problem is in the comparison. If I want a Balseraph to be a bruiser, I can do it on starting stats with no problem (even more so if it's in service to Baal). It can be decent at its attunement, with Will 7, and still have 4 Corporeal Forces to fight angels with on Earth. I can create a Habbalite who is a bruiser. I can even create a Shedite who is a bruiser, or a Lilim. So why can't I create an Impudite that can fight (and as you say, there's no shortage of dashingly charismatic combat-capable role-models). Mercurians can. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1419 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.