From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Nov 18 14:18:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17413 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:18:59 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA19701 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:56:29 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:56:29 -0600 Message-Id: <199911181956.NAA19701@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1420 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 18 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1420 In this digest: Re: IN> Bright Bands Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Janus' Foil Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Bright Bands Re: IN> David IN> Saints preserve us! Re: IN> Re:IN > IN Heresy Re: IN> Re:IN > IN Heresy IN> [NPC] Benhanon, Renegade Impudite of Lust Re: IN> Saints preserve us! Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Celestial Personality (was Re: IN> Impudite Resonance?) Re: IN> [NPC] Benhanon, Renegade Impudite of Lust IN> Alternate Ethereals Re: IN> Janus' Foil Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> [NPC] Benhanon, Renegade Impudite of Lust RE: IN> Janus' Foil IN> Character sheets Re: IN> Saints preserve us! Re: IN> [NPC] Benhanon, Renegade Impudite of Lust Re: IN> Alternate Ethereals IN> Re: fluff and a Superior - was How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host [Pure Fluff] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:33:54 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Bright Bands >Okay, this has been bouncing around the ol' noggin . . . how about >demons that stay "demonic" after they Redeem? Interesting twist on an idea that has been kicked around before. A year or two ago, we got to discussing different ways that angels could Fall. It was suggested then that not _all_ Ofanim become Calabites, frex; some might become different, rarer Bands. >Bright Balseraphs (The Revealers) > The Bright Balseraphs still won't lie to you from their >perspective -- only now their perspective is that of the Symphony. >They thus gain an additional dissonance condition identical to that >of a Seraph. These angels thus use their resonance to make people >believe the *truth* -- that the Holocaust did happen, that God is >good, that Beth is the greatest line editor in the history of gaming >-- whatever the truth may be. Neat. Although some angels who worry about human free will might have a problem with this (isn't making them believe the Truth dangerously like forcing them to be good?) >Bright Djinn (The Hunters) > The Djinn who go bright now Care, so, much like the Cherubim >they now generate dissonance for betraying their Superior, friends, >ideals, or selves. However, since they can attune to a target without >having to protect it, they can be used to track the unsavory characters >that Cherubim cannot. Sure. I got no problem with this. IMC there are Djinn who still care... though usually in a *highly* dysfunctional fashion ("I know this hurts, but it's for your own good...") >Bright Calabim (The Enforcers) > Bright Calabim cannot be stripped of their Discord, but in the >process of Redemption it often changes in nature. An especially >common remanifestation is the Burning Touch (APG p.50) discord. >Bright Calabim are often added to strike teams of Malakim and Ofanim >as additional muscle. Like Malakim, they cannot suffer an evil to >live without taking dissonance. Angels of destruction? H'm. >Bright Habbalah (The Strengtheners) > Fortunately, they take the questioning without annoyance. >"Yes, I'm an angel. No, *they* aren't, they're deluded, I serve an >Archangel. No, Vapula's a Demon Prince -- *I* serve Dominic. No, he >isn't secretly a Balseraph." And they better -- like Elohim, they >cannot act subjectively without incurring dissonance. Bright Habbalah >use their resonance to strengthen humans, by inducing courage, or calm, >or other emotions to constructive ends. David and Novalis both find >Bright Habblah useful, although for *very* different reasons. See the note on Balseraphs. Angelic resonances tend to be subtler than demonic ones, and to involve less brute-force messing with free will. (N.B., IMC Elohim can fall in several different ways, of which the Habbalah are just the most common. The weirdest are the Eloi, who Fall by losing subjectivity so badly as to become solipsists... that is, they don't think they SERVE God, they think they ARE God. But I digress...) >Bright Shedim (The Nonexistent) > Shedim either become Kyriotates, die during Redemption, or >quickly yo-yo, because of their Dissonance conditions. If a "bright >Shedim" manifests, they are immediately Force-stripped into a reliever >(or oblivion) by the redeeming Archangel. While a Bright Shedim might >be useful, the corruption they would spread in the name of *Heaven* is >unacceptable. I suppose you could have them pushing humans towards redemption rather than corruption. But, again, the free will issue pops up. Angels are more about persuasion (okay, manipulation), not *making* humans be good. >Bright Impudites (The Charmers of Man) > Most Impudites readily transform into Mercurians. The few who >don't immediately have a new dissonance condition imposed -- they take >dissonance when use their resonance to steal Essence from a human. >However, they can voluntarily *fail* the roll with an automatic check >digit of 1 in an attempt to gift the human with Essence, Er, actually it's canon that celestials can just give Essence at will. >and they can >still try to siphon Essence from diabolicals. Hah. The Impudite resonance is worse than useless against opponents with a serious Will. Needs some rethinking here. Maybe they lose the essence-slurping power (which is, after all, pretty demonic in nature) and gain... oh, something else. Not sure what. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:24:31 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? At 01:22 PM 11/18/99 -0000, you wrote: >From: Ben Glickler >> I assume that it's a rare Impudite who takes a Will below 8. And it's a >> successful Impudite who takes a higher Will. Why hobble your biggest >trick? >> Would you play an angel who could never use his resonance because of a low >> perception? > >yes. i play a character because i like the personality, not because i like >the twinkie powers that come attached with it but the powers should fit the personality. if you take say a seraph with a perception of 4 then you should have that be in some way linked to the character, the blindest seraph in heaven 5 of 6 eyes closed at all times. in which case you should be perfectly willing to accept that you would fail a lot. however, keep in mind that each angel or demons type is sort of like their job in some ways. I mean Dominic confronts one of his Seraphim. Dom."I see you haven't been helping your triad by discovering the truth why is that? Ser."oh yeah that's because I am a moron. But I did beat up that sorceror real good!" Dom."yes, but you had to spend 4 weeks in trauma. that's what malakim are for." Ser."oh sorry, i wasn't paying attention." This seraph with no perception is not going anywhere fast. this limitation can be accepted for the sake of character but it shouldn't be forced. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:43:33 -0000 From: "Liam" Subject: Re: IN> Janus' Foil From: Tim Groth > Obviously Beelzebub dies somehow, and its possible > he was a minor prince holding a major Word. i believe that "somehow" came in the form of uriel finally tracking him down :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:47:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? An imperceptive seraph might be valuable because he is *honest* (and a combat monster or something else valuable), rather than because of his truth-seeing powers. I grant you, that's a special case. (On the other hand, a naive seraph has a certain natural quality to it.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:51:59 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Bright Bands Douglas Muir wrote: > I suppose you could have them pushing humans towards redemption > rather than corruption. But, again, the free will issue pops up. > Angels are more about persuasion (okay, manipulation), not *making* > humans be good. Likewise, a Shedite can't successfully *make* a human go bad. They have to seduce them into doing it, otherwise the rotten deed was just a sort of psychotic episode, very unfortunate, but not really moral corruption. Think of those stereotypical cartoon pictures of the little angel on one shoulder and the little devil on the other, making opposing pitches to the mortal. That's rather what dark and bright Shedim add up to. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:41:45 -0600 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: IN> David >maybe. i'm certainly not defending fascism or anything. my point was that >capitalism seems to produce internally divisive societies, whereas fascism >seems to produce societies that are internally very strong (mainly by >killing all the bits that don't agree with them). This is actually something of a myth. In practice, fascism produces societies that are every bit as divisive as capitalistic ones, if not moreso. The internal politics of Nazi Germany, for instance, were a complete mess. Or take Japan of the same era; there was no body or individual that provided a unified command for the Army and Navy, so they fought two separate wars. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:46:29 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Saints preserve us! "... upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. " -- Matthew 16:18 (Kindly note that the mention of gates implies Hell is on the defensive.) ==== The four figures hurried into the Blue Cat Club -- not through the front door, leading to the scandalously popular night club, but through the back door, for "special members," leading to the rooms that made the place a Tether to Lust. One figure was elegantly clad in the Goth mode, sheathed in black, wearing a nose ring and a Horus pattern tattooed around his eye. Two others were big, scruffy, and dressed in denim and leather. These two held the fourth figure between them, in tee-shirt, jeans, and a quantity of bruises and blood. He divided his struggles between the two toughs and the scrap of red silk tied around one wrist, which kept him chained in his vessel. Once they were through the door, the elegant Goth snapped an order to the two toughs. While they held their victim's arm motionless, the leader pulled off the silk. He turned and faced the senechal, who wore a gymnast vessel clad only in a blue thong. "Take care of this," he said, handing the silk artifact to the senechal. "We're headed down." The three demons and their victim vanished. Out in the front of the club, a woman looked up from her drink and yawned. It was a signal. Eleven other figures rose and filtered out through the dark and noise. Down in hell, in Shal-Mari, the four celestials popped out the other end of the Tether, in a dim-lit room full of velvet cushions and erotic tapestries. Now, they were an Impudite, two ogreish Calabim, and a cherub -- a small golden dolphin winged with elaborate fish fins, struggling between the two demons. "The chain," snapped the Impudite. One of the Calabim picked a length of red chain off the floor and started to bind the dolphin. "So tell us now," said the Calabite. "What's special about fish-baby here? He's just one of Chrissy's child-watchers, isn't he?" "Yes," said the Impudite, "but he was acting as a courier, passing information between two teams of Malakim." He smiled at the dolphin. "Tch. Should have left that kind of thing to Ophanim. They can duck better." "Lucky for him, he has friends in high places," said a new voice. The demons turned. There stood a human soul. Unlike most such in Hell, he didn't look dirty or mangled; he looked as fair as a Mercurian. And he didn't look terrified or downcast; he had the same glad ferocity as a Malakite. He wore snow-white combat gear and carried an epee of blue-white light. And then there was a woman at his side, similarly equipped, similarly smiling. And another man. And another. And another... "The senechal--" one Calabite wondered out loud. "--is a lucky fellow, safe tucked away in Trauma," said the first man. "He had his vessel to protect him. Unlike you." And more white figures were popping into the room. The Impudite started hissing a Song. The Calabim roared. Swords of light danced. Moments later, the demons lay dissolving on the floor. One Calabite might melt down to gremlin-size and live, if not attended to. A human raised her sword. "Reinforcements coming," warned another. The dolphin-cherub swam through the air, trying to shake the chain off its flukes. "We'll get that off in a moment," said one soldier, grabbing a pectoral fin. "Right now, we leave." The Saints gathered together and started to sing. ===== Some Saints aren't content with fighting Hell on Earth. Some, mostly in service to Michael, have banded together into strike teams raiding Hell itself. Others infiltrate, sneaking in through Tethers or the Marches or by prior arrangement past the Angels of Final Judgement; once in Hell, they can pass for damned much more easily than an angel can. These hell-raiders know the risks they run. Obviously, they feel the risks are worth the rewards to Heaven. Many believe that, even if they are soul-killed, their Forces simply fly up Jacob's Ladder and they live again in the Upper Heavens. After all, that's a lot like what happened to them when they died on Earth... Spies or strike teams, both have the advantage of the Song of Ascension, which only Saints can perform successfully. At a cost of 3 Essence, 1 Disturbance, it whisks a Saint from Hell to Heaven (but not off Earth or out of the Marches). Chance of success goes up by +1 for each singer joining in, so a smallish group will always succeed barring an Infernal Intervention. Speculation is that the Song is so quiet because it is restoring the natural state of things; Saints don't "belong" in Hell, Symphonically speaking. Speculation also is that the Song is Saints-only because Saints "belong" in Hell even less than angels do -- their natural place being up Jacob's Ladder in the Upper Heavens. In any case, the Song and their humanity give Saints the edge in storming Hell. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:00:36 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re:IN > IN Heresy At 17:52 -0500 11/16/99, Glenn D. Brown wrote: >According to their descriptions in Heaven and Hell, Yves and Kronos are both >manifestations of God. Kronos's origins are CDaU, but what if Kronos and >Yves are the same being, which manifests as Yves when it is feeling >selfless, and as Kronos when it feels selfish? I think they'd be more independent than that, but it's not far off how I've been viewing Kronos -- that he's most likely some sort of fragment of Yves, or shadow copy, or something similar, created at the time of the Fall. Incidentally, Superiors can already have multiple manifestations (sort of like Kyrios) in canon. So it's fairly reasonable there could be a kind of split personality happening with different personalities dominating different manifestations. The main problem I see with the notion is why a split-off "selfish" manifestation would want to merge back with the main entity. (This is one of my speculations on the origin of Kronos -- that he's a rogue manifestation of Yves that's gone independent due to the Fall, somehow.) Hence my comment that the result would be essentially an independent being - -- it's more like reproduction by budding, with the copy being rather imperfect. >The main advantage of adopting this idea is that it would make possible the >appearance in a campaign of any of the Fallen Archangels or Redeemed Demon >Princes which have been described lately, without losing the original, canon >UnFallen Archangels or UnRedeemed Demon Princes. Of course, if enough >Superiors developed complex personalities, it would have a major effect on >the nature of the War. But it might be fun to see the players reactions if >the number of Superiors on both sides suddenly doubled... This raises some problems with timescale, though -- it would be really unlikely that this would happen to multiple Superiors within a short period of time, so you'd have to backwrite history a bit, suffer the implausibility, or only do it with at most one or two Superiors over the course of a campaign. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:00:36 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re:IN > IN Heresy At 17:52 -0500 11/16/99, Glenn D. Brown wrote: >According to their descriptions in Heaven and Hell, Yves and Kronos are both >manifestations of God. Kronos's origins are CDaU, but what if Kronos and >Yves are the same being, which manifests as Yves when it is feeling >selfless, and as Kronos when it feels selfish? I think they'd be more independent than that, but it's not far off how I've been viewing Kronos -- that he's most likely some sort of fragment of Yves, or shadow copy, or something similar, created at the time of the Fall. Incidentally, Superiors can already have multiple manifestations (sort of like Kyrios) in canon. So it's fairly reasonable there could be a kind of split personality happening with different personalities dominating different manifestations. The main problem I see with the notion is why a split-off "selfish" manifestation would want to merge back with the main entity. (This is one of my speculations on the origin of Kronos -- that he's a rogue manifestation of Yves that's gone independent due to the Fall, somehow.) Hence my comment that the result would be essentially an independent being - -- it's more like reproduction by budding, with the copy being rather imperfect. >The main advantage of adopting this idea is that it would make possible the >appearance in a campaign of any of the Fallen Archangels or Redeemed Demon >Princes which have been described lately, without losing the original, canon >UnFallen Archangels or UnRedeemed Demon Princes. Of course, if enough >Superiors developed complex personalities, it would have a major effect on >the nature of the War. But it might be fun to see the players reactions if >the number of Superiors on both sides suddenly doubled... This raises some problems with timescale, though -- it would be really unlikely that this would happen to multiple Superiors within a short period of time, so you'd have to backwrite history a bit, suffer the implausibility, or only do it with at most one or two Superiors over the course of a campaign. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:21:21 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com Subject: IN> [NPC] Benhanon, Renegade Impudite of Lust Benhanan Renegade Impudite of Lust Corporeal Forces 3 -- Strength 6 Agility 6 Ethereal Forces 3 -- Intelligence 7 Precision 5 Celestial Forces 3 -- Will 8 Perception 4 Vessel: Human Male/2, Charisma +2 Role: Role/4, Status/2 (Bookstore clerk) Skills: Fast-talk/4, Emote/3, Lying/3, Savoire-Faire/3 Dodge/4, Fighting/2 Songs: Ethereal Charm/3, Celestial Motion/4 Discord: Obsession/3 (Being cool) Appearance: Benhanon appears on Earth as a handsome white human male in his mid-20s. Story: "So why'd you run out on Andrealphus?" "See, I realized that the fundamental problem was that I realized that no demon of Lust could never be cool." "Come on, sexy devils are always cool." "No, no, it's the difference between John Wayne and Roger Moore. Someone who's cool acts like a bastard but you can tell that deep down really they care. That's John Wayne. But Roger Moore as James Bond has immunity to women; no matter how many he screws you know that none of 'em can ever touch him. Therefore he can never be truly cool, because he can never be truly hurt." "First incubi aren't cool, and now James Bond isn't either? What are you smoking?" "Bond isn't cool, not compared to John Wayne. See, in _Rio Bravo_, right at the beginning there's this scene where Dean Martin is playing a broke drunk in a saloon. So Dean Martin goes up to this dude, and begs him for some money to buy a drink. Unfortunately, this guy is just mean, and he says to Dean Martin, sure I'll give you some money. So then he takes out a silver dollar and he throws it in a spitoon full of spit. And he says, if you want it, go get it." "John Wayne did that? Whoa." "Nah, that's just this extra being bad. What happens next is that Dean Martin bends down to get the money, he needs a drink so bad, when John Wayne shows up. Now John Wayne is Dean Martin's friend, and he can't let him humiliate himself like that. "If he were just good, then he'd pull Dean Martin away from the spitoon. If he were just a badass, then he'd let Dean Martin do it and then plug the extra. But instead he just kicks the spitoon out of Dean Martin's grasp. This is cool because John Wayne is so hard he doesn't even bend his head down to look at Dean Martin, but you can tell that the hard is just style and he cares enough to look after his buddy." "Benhanon, you're not John Wayne. You're not Roger Moore. You're not even Dean Martin. How does any of this relate to abandoning your Prince, getting the Game after you? Are you trying to get dead or redeem or something?" "Nah, I'm not trying to be good. I'm trying to be cool. Andrealphus wouldn't let me care without dissonance, so it was goodbye to him. But the halos wouldn't let me be hard, so nuts to them too." "You're the one who's nuts. Just remember that when you get caught, I barely knew you and didn't like what little I did see." "Hey, I'm cool -- I'd never rat on my friends." "Yeah, whatever." - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:30:44 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Saints preserve us! Interesting but I think Lucifer would notice them (and their song) and would most likely beef up security in numerous ways, and set up his own demons to pick out infiltrating saints. There are already Habalah lining the entrance to Hell, if they are trained to use their resonance like the Elohim resonance as mentioned in the IPG then they can help pick out saints. Add in some Basleraphs of Fate and their is very little way a Saint is getting in un-noticed. And so the Saints enter, believing themselves unnoticed, and then they get ambushed by a bunch of angry Calabim. I think it would work once or twice, but once Hell beefed up security it would be just as risky as sending angels in. I like the song of acension, I can see some saints using it, grabing some damned souls and liberating them from Hell. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:57:31 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? At 14:48 -0500 11/17/99, David Edelstein wrote: >Nonetheless, I probably would either drop the Ethereal + Celestial >Forces penalty, or else say if the resonance roll succeeds, it can't be >resisted. In GURPS In Nomine, we took the former course. This was partly a fix, partly due to the de-emphasis of Forces in the GURPS conversion (humans, in particular, tend to lack anything resembling a Forces attribute), and partly due to the change in centerpoint of attributes. The resonance is much easier to use, but humans are also more likely to resist it. It does make it more effective on celestials, though, at least for the charm ability. (Using the Essence drain on a celestial is very iffy, unless the Impudite happens to know the target has a low Will. Otherwise, it's a crap-shoot as to whether he'll gain or lose Essence on the deal.) Frankly, the Impudite resonance doesn't bother me all that much, since they can always blow Essence to help charm someone -- they can always get more, later. Someone else already pointed out the "working the crowd" trick. The subtle part of the Impudite resonance mechanics is that they simply don't need to conserve Essence all that much -- just about anywhere, they can go find a crowd of mundanes and spend a little time to "top off". The main problem with this, from a gaming point of view, is that it's boring. I don't have any Impudite PCs, so I don't have this problem, but if I did, I'd handle it much like I handle Rites. "OK, you go off for an hour or two, and when you come back, you're full of Essence." This does ignore some things, like the probability of Interventions happening when so many die rolls are made; as a matter of fact, I think that's a feature. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:52:14 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Celestial Personality (was Re: IN> Impudite Resonance?) As I understand it a Celestial's base personality is the intersection of their Choir or Band and their Superior's Word. So Calabite of Andre aren't into random destruction as much as they are into rough sex. Impudites of Baal like violence, and probably lead other like minded individuals. While a Celestial can develop a more complicated personality they start out with only minor deviation from the natural intersections of what type of celestial they are and the Word they serve. It mentions in the PGs that new celestials err on the side of card board cut out. They simply don't have the depth of personality that humans do, hell if they violate core aspects of their celestial natures they suffer for it. In addition to this they are built for certain duties based around their resonances. Seraphs detect the Truth, that's their purpose. They can develop hobbies,likes and dislikes over time but they start out with the job of finding the Truth as their Superior manifests it. If a Superior wants someone who will be a combat monster they'll probably make a Malakite. Remember that Superiors dont' have to teach skills, they can transcribe them onto a new celestial. Training is mostly in things that aren't reflected in skills, just letting a new celestial get used to existing. During this time the focus is on their nature, thus its only when they get put on earth for active duty do their personalities start to deviate. What this all means is that no prince in their right mind is going to create a low Will impudite, it isn't practical. Their going to make them celestial forces heavy and tip them towards Will. If they don't want someone who is capable of charming and stealing essence they won't make an Impudite. Players have leeway in that their characters aren't usually fresh to earth, but the marks of what direction their Superior put them in is going to remain for some time. Some character types don't make sense to start as, but would be cool to become. For instance plenty of Impudites (especially of the War) probably think that James Bond is a perfect rolemodel. Plenty of contact to steal essence, totally charming, sophisticated and able to kick ass. No starting character is up to par with that, it takes time. So older Impudites (and other celestials) can be farther away from their sterotypical personalities, having time to develop. But younger ones (such as player characters) are usually better examples of their Choir or Band nature. They'll have quirks and hobbies and such from being on earth, but they won't have had the time to develop the stat reflected differences. Basicly it boils down to this. Superiors are practical, their going to build celestials practicly. The resonance/dissonance settings of Choirs/Band lend themselves to specific duties, not just in their inclined abilities but in what they will avoid doing because it inflicts dissonace (which I imagine must be an unpleasent sensation). Now I'm going to go blow the essene I just gained. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:56:31 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Benhanon, Renegade Impudite of Lust I like the Obsession and his definition of it. Good work, that Discord is definetly appearing in an NPC IMC sometime soon. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:01:33 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Alternate Ethereals Personally, I've never cared much for the fantasy cliche of "our belief creates the gods." I've seen how this idea causes lots of confusion in dealing with the Marches, and I know there's at least one other list member who has written the idea out of his games. I hereby propose alternate ways to populate the Marches. Animals: We are told there are no animals in Hell (except for those that are really degenerated human souls). We know that *some* animals go to Heaven, particularly Jordi's cathedral. But do *all* of them? The write-up on Jordi in the main book implies only those animals that achieve some flicker of spiritual consciousness go to Heaven. How about the others? They might reincarnate, or disband ... or they could go to the Marches. Animal souls might be the basis for a lot of fabulous beasts. Dragons could be the ghosts of dinosaurs, for instance. Almost any fabulous beast might be an animal soul that had learned to express a different Ethereal form. Between Engagements: We know that some human souls reincarnate. But how *long* does it take to reincarnate? According to some forms of Buddhism, you can linger for many years on the "Bardo plane" between turns on the Wheel. Suppose reincarnatees hang out in the Marches for long periods, maybe for centuries. Reincarnatees might be able to delay their next incarnation by deliberate effort. That could cost Essence. They might get extra Essence channeled to them, if they have worshippers on Earth. Thus, pagan gods could be the divinitized souls of old heroes (which is exactly what a lot of them are said to be in the original myths), maintained (or not) in Olympus or Valhalla by their faithful. Soldiers and sorcerors might be very old souls who have built up their extra Forces during their stay between incarnations, out in the Marches. Cross that idea with the previous one and you could, say, have a Soldier of Janus who used to be the god Mercury. Staving Off the End: We know that some human souls disband at death. But what if you were dreaming when you died, so you became a Dreamshade. You might postpone your dissolution by staying in the Marches. Unlike other Dreamshades, you have no pull toward Heaven or Hell, so you might remain indefinitely. Or maybe you need a supply of Essence to avoid disbandment. Then we have another motive for getting Essence from mortals, as above. What if you don't KNOW whether you'll reincarnate or dissolve on leaving the Ethereal Plane?... Skipping Sinners: Neel (at http://www.sff.net/people/neelk/in_nomine/setting/marches.html) stocks his Marches with escapees from Hell, along with angels who sided neither with God nor with Lucifer in the Fall. This latter is a traditional origin story for fays, and both these groups would make good bases for fays. Slumming Saints: Saints are less powerful than angels, but also less constrained. Some Saints (especially of Blandine) might wander the Marches, doing good freelance, or of course on missions from Archangels. Pre-Adamites: According to the official In Nomine timeline in the GM's Guide (Any idea when my copy will show up, David?), not only were there humans before Adam and Eve, there were whole races and species of humans, not to mention hominids, before Adam and Eve. What if going to the Celestial Plane after death is standard only for descendants of Adam and Eve? There could be whole nations and races of prehistoric peoples out in the Marches. They'd make another good basis for fays. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:20:26 -0700 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Janus' Foil At 03:43 PM 11/18/99 -0000, you wrote: >> Obviously Beelzebub dies somehow, and its possible >> he was a minor prince holding a major Word. >i believe that "somehow" came in the form of uriel finally tracking him down How is it "obvious" that Beelzebub died? The only reference /I/ can find to him is in the IPG, where it lists him as a Famous Djinn (I ignored this for purposes of Christopher), and the INcyclopedia lists him among the living Superiors. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:18:11 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? At 1:57 PM -0500 11/18/99, Walter Milliken wrote: > >Frankly, the Impudite resonance doesn't bother me all that much, since >they can always blow Essence to help charm someone -- they can always >get more, later. Someone else already pointed out the "working the crowd" >trick. The subtle part of the Impudite resonance mechanics is that >they simply don't need to conserve Essence all that much -- just about >anywhere, they can go find a crowd of mundanes and spend a little time to >"top off". Precisely. Impudites can be *nasty* Songmongers, as they usually have quite a bit of Essence. That's usually where my Impudites put their strengths -- Songs, and perhaps an appropriate Attunement or two for the rare times they're out of Essence. The Kings of this are Vapula's Impudites. Not only do they get to store up to double their Essence, they can see how much Essence people are carrying with their funky specs. As a result, they can see where the pickings are good, use a bit of Essence to cast Celestial Charm, and if needed bolster their Resonance Rolls with a bit of essence, then slurp down the goodies. >The main problem with this, from a gaming point of view, is that it's boring. >I don't have any Impudite PCs, so I don't have this problem, but if I did, >I'd handle it much like I handle Rites. "OK, you go off for an hour or two, >and when you come back, you're full of Essence." This does ignore some >things, like the probability of Interventions happening when so many die >rolls are made; as a matter of fact, I think that's a feature. Agreed on all points. I'd have no problem with a player saying "we can't do anything for a bit? I go graze." I might roll d666 just to see how much essence they get -- the 2d6 would be the reaped Essence up to their maximum, the check digit would be ignored, but an Intervention would be considered an Intervention for the whole process. Off-mechanic? Yup, but workable. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:13:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Benhanon, Renegade Impudite of Lust Definitely ... cool. Of course, I notice Benhanon's idea of "cool" entails genuine caring. He thinks "the halos wouldn't let me be hard," but it sounds like all he needs to do is meet up with the right servitors of David, Michael, or maybe Laurence, and Heaven has one more Mercurian. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:25:48 -0800 From: Steven Feldon Subject: RE: IN> Janus' Foil Hee. Glad to see the INcyclopedia used. . . . But Beelzebub is only listed as "living" because nowhere does it say he's dead. I don't list a being as "dead" unless a) there's TextEv that says "they're dead" or b) they're mortal and there's TextEv or real life data that says they were born more than a hundred years ago. Thus, Legion is marked as dead for reason a), and Michaelangelo for reason b). I've always assumed that Beelzebub had to be the _first_ Prince of Corruption, and thus dead, simply because what would inspire Lucifer to appoint _no_ DP's of Corruption from the Fall until the 1400's, and then two in six hundred years? steve - -----Original Message----- From: EDG [mailto:edg@sjgames.com] Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 11:20 AM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Janus' Foil At 03:43 PM 11/18/99 -0000, you wrote: >> Obviously Beelzebub dies somehow, and its possible >> he was a minor prince holding a major Word. >i believe that "somehow" came in the form of uriel finally tracking him down How is it "obvious" that Beelzebub died? The only reference /I/ can find to him is in the IPG, where it lists him as a Famous Djinn (I ignored this for purposes of Christopher), and the INcyclopedia lists him among the living Superiors. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:27:57 -0700 From: EDG Subject: IN> Character sheets In other news, Tafka J.'s neat-o keen character sheets have their very own shiny new page on the In Nomine website: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/charsheets/index.html Check 'em out! - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:00:26 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Saints preserve us! [snippage] Good fic. You should write more. I agree, though, with Tim -- this tactic would only work if it's not used too often, as there are various ways Hell could defend against it. Even if Hell is on the defensive, the demons aren't going to sit still and allow humans -- humans! -- to make frequent, strategically significant raids. I could see Laurence or David keeping this as an ace up their sleeves, perhaps, to be played in certain rare and special situations. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:05:27 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Benhanon, Renegade Impudite of Lust >Benhanan >Renegade Impudite of Lust I like it! This would be a great NPC character for almost anyone's campaign, I think. Minor change: I'd give him one or two levels of the "selfless" discord... though he wouldn't recognize it as such; he'd just think that caring was a difficult but necessary part of being cool. Definitely a target for recruitment by Heaven. Mmm, redemption through coolness... now there's a really IN concept. OTOH, if the Game catches him, they'll show him "cool". As in "demon fudgsicle in the Lower Hells". And if Andre gets to him first... well, what's the most uncool job a demon could have? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:06:33 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Ethereals [much snippage] Kewl. I don't use the Marches much, but I could see all of these as potential plot seeds. Heck, I could see all of them as starting new religions. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:08:33 -0700 From: EDG Subject: IN> Re: fluff and a Superior - was How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host [Pure Fluff] At 01:02 PM 11/18/99 PST, you wrote: >> >And the answer is Rudabaga >> No its 42. >No that's the meaning of life No, it's fluff. I advise cutting it out, before Beth drops you into the Firepits. ObIN: Laurence, Angel Prince of Conquest "Heaven chose to be evil when it unjustly banished me; at least Hell understands my goals. Who could be evil who supports my quest?" Heaven claims that Laurence finally cracked under the pressure. Laurence claims that Heaven banished him unjustly. Hell is just happy that one of its Princes is a Malakite; with Laurence by Baal's side, the Horde now has a damned good chance of winning the War. Laurence was yearning for days of yore in Heaven - the days of the Crusades, when good Christians took up their swords in the name of God - and decided that the world needed a jumpstart. What with the media muddling issues, new faiths and cults springing up every day, and the belief of the faithful fading by the day in the face of adversity, Laurence felt that humanity needed a cause, a champion. So he called together his most trusted angels, and told them of his plan. The Sword was going to lead a modern crusade, one that spanned the world and every Christian soul. The aim: to retake Jerusalem for Christianity, once and for all. Laurence's orders amounted to "Do what thou wilt, an it harm not Jerusalem", and his angels left with a sense of urgency. Unfortunately for Laurence, one of his angels - Elishel, the Kyriotate Angel of Military Intelligence - decided that taking Jerusalem in the name of Christianity /would/ harm the Holy City, and he flew quickly to Michael to relay the news of Laurence's plot. War was furious, and stormed into Laurence's War Room not long after, questions flying. Laurence responded by drawing his glorious sword, and battle ensued. The fight raged for days upon days, leveled sections of the Eternal City, and was constantly monitored by both Dominic and Yves - the former stern and impassive, the latter saddened. After the seventh day of fighting, Michael finally gained a definitive upper hand, and with a sweep of his mighty axe he loosed Laurence's sword from the fighter's grip and sent it flying. "Do you yield?" asked War in his thundering voice. "You still believe that the Holy City was meant for people other than those who have accepted Christ?" Laurence asked. "Then I shall never yield to you." Michael nodded sadly and moved to strike at the other Archangel when Dominic stepped in. "Michael," said Judgment, "stay your hand. Laurence will be detained. I have spread the order to cease all activities concerning the New Crusade; the Sword must be questioned before judgment is passed." Dominic smiled slightly under his hood. "I have... learned some things from hasty trials in the past." Laurence stood then, feathers falling like rain from his black wings. "I will be damned," he said, "if I will stand for this! If even Dominic is against me, then Heaven has become too rank a place for me. And I'll see you in Hell before I let you lead me into dissonance!" The Sword dropped his prize relic - the Key to the Eternal City - to the ground, and his form shimmered, flashed with the brilliance of a thousand suns, and vanished. Dominic turned to Michael. "He is gone." Michael nodded. "He is." And both knew that it was Truth. "Who will lead the armies of Heaven?" Dominic sighed quietly. "It will be you." Laurence fled meanwhile to Earth, where he sat pondering. He stayed thus until a bemused Lucifer came upon him, and asked the once-glorious Archangel what was wrong. "I have been betrayed by Heaven," said Laurence, "banished by those who care not for the good of humanity." And the Lightbringer smiled, and spoke but three words to Laurence; and then Laurence the once-Archangel smiled darkly, for he knew that Lucifer spoke the truth. Laurence was granted the demonic Word of Conquest that day by the Prince of Darkness, and has striven to fulfill it since. He knows that the dissonance he gets is from failing to take any more of Hell than his dread Castle, but as Lucifer himself shows up every few days to banish the dissonance, he feels that his current quest - to unite humankind under the banner of Christianiry and to purify Heaven of the obvious evils that it holds - is vastly more important. Once Heaven is once again the shining beacon of hope, love, and Christian ideals that it once was, Laurence will use his Castle in Hell as a front-line base of operations. In the meantime, he utilizes infernal servitors - at least with demons, he can plan around their shortcomings and disloyalties. DISSONANCE It is dissonant for a demon of Laurence to prevent a conquest, and also to fail to perform at least one act per day which leads to a takeover. BAND ATTUNEMENTS BALSERAPHS Laurence's Balseraphs may add their Celestial Forces to any resonance roll aimed at making it easier for a conquest to occur. ("Don't worry, Bill's a great guy. I know he'll make a good dictator.") DJINN Djinn of Conquest may only attune themselves to one person at a time, and that person may attempt a Will roll (minus the check digit of the demon's successful resonance roll) to resist; however, if the attunement is successful, the victim becomes the Djinn's virtual slave. The target /must/ do anything the Djinn tells him to, unless it would cause the target /or the Djinn/ physical harm. ("Walk off a cliff" will not be followed unless the victim wants to; "shoot him" will be followed, because killing someone does not cause the victim direct physical harm.) CALABIM Destroyers of Laurence can use a modified form of their resonance in addition to their standard resonance. By choosing a target and rolling Perception, the Calabite may create bonds of control between that target and a number of people equal to the check digit, but in doing so he destroys any emotional bonds that may already have been there. (With a check digit of 1, the Calabite gives control of one person to his target; with a check digit of 2, he gives control of two people to his target, and so forth.) Calabim of Laurence all have the Greedy Discord. HABBALAH Laurence's Punishers can, with a touch, cause their victims to desire control over those people and things around them for a number of hours equal to the Habbalite's Celestial Forces. LILIM The target of a Lilim of Conquest's resonance does /not/ get a Will roll to resist the favor she asks of him, unless his Will is higher than hers. Alternately, the Lilim can - when she first makes the Perception roll - choose to allow the victim a Will roll, but the check digit of a failed roll adds to the level of the Geas she can inflict! (Numbers over 6 add /another Geas to the list, of a level equal to the excess, in addition to the Geas/6. Example: Lily allows Tom a Will roll when she detects that he needs $40,000 to keep his company solvent - a level 4 Need. Lily talks to Tom about this, and he agrees to the exchange. She then produces the $40,000. He attemps to resist - surely she had inside information! He fails, though, with a check digit of 5. Tom now owes Lily a Geas/6 /and/ a Geas/3!) SHEDIM Laurence's Shedim can pass effortlessly between leaders; the Shedite can ooze into someone who is the leader, perceived or official, of a group of five or more people without making a Will roll, and the oozing only takes one round. IMPUDITES An Impudite of Laurence can use Charm on a number of people equal to his Celestial Forces to convince the group that he is their leader, for a number of minutes equal to the successful check digit. He may also use Steal Essence on any group of which he is considered the leader with a single resonance roll, taking Essence from /each member/ of the group equal to the successful check digit. If the Impudite cannot hold that much Essence, he takes an equal amount from everybody up to the amount he can carry; if one of his targets doesn't have enough Essence to donate, the balance is taken equally from the rest. SERVITOR ATTUNEMENTS In addition to Blade Blessing, which he still grants, Laurence has one other servitor attunement. HAIL THE CONQUERING HERO A demon with this attunement is a natural leader. He can convince five people for every Essence spent that he is the new leader of an organization or group, for a number of hours equal to his Will. Using this on the /real/ leader of an organization can have some interesting results... DISTINCTIONS Laurence's distinctions are not /of/ anything; they stand on their own, and build upon each other. KNIGHT Laurence's Knights can, with a look, determine the person who has the most direct control over anyone their gaze falls upon. (A direct superior or a parent would be appropriate. Note that this can change with circumstances; a child in class would yield a teacher.) CAPTAIN A Captain of Conquest can shift the balance of power from one person to another, once he has determined the current balance using his powers as a Knight, for a number of hours equal to his total Forces. (In other words, if person A has power over person B, the 12-Force Captain can grant person B control over person A for 12 hours.) BARON One of Laurence's Barons can determine who has the most /absolute/ control over someone, simply by looking at them. (A mail clerk might yield the president of the company, for instance; a child in class might indicate a parent.) He can then switch the polarity of the control, as a Captain can. RELATIONS Mammon is distressed by Laurence's Word; after all, it impinges even more on his own. Lilith, likewise, considers the new Prince a threat, and Asmodeus and Kronos are suspicious of him. Baal, however, appreciates Laurence's determination and military expertise (not to mention his knowledge of the tactics of the army of Heaven), Valefor admires his ability to take control of things, and Kobal thinks he's the funniest thing since banana peels. ALLIED: Baal (Baal, Kobal, and Valefor are Allied to Laurence) ASSOCIATED: Valefor, Haagenti, Malphas (Haagenti and Malphas are Associated to Laurence) NEUTRAL: Everyone else, except... HOSTILE: Lilith (Lilith is Hostile to Laurence) ENEMY: No one (Mammon is an Enemy to Laurence) QUOTES Andrealphus: "With that body, Laurence can conquer me /any/ time! Just name the place!" ("Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.") Asmodeus: "Laurence is a dangerous wild-card. Lucifer may have him here simply to help him in defecting back to the Host later." ("He knows too much. Military intelligence is all well and good, but Asmodeus doesn't share with his allies.") Baal: "He knows enough about the angels to be useful in fighting against them. I do regret being unable to challenge him head-on, though." ("He holds the position in Hell which I held in Heaven. I envy him that.") Beleth: ("Fear conquers the people as well as physical might does.") Belial: "Burn the fields, burn the villages, burn the infidels - I like this guy!" ("He destroys what he could assimilate. Foolish.") Haagenti: "Heh. I conquered a pile of hamburgers as tall as I was the other day." ("He understands my desire to overwhelm everything. Where my tastes run to religion, his tastes run to chicken. I don't hold that against him.") Kobal: ("Once a laughing fool, always a laughing fool. At least he'll die laughing.") Kronos: "All I know is that he has yet to achieve his Fate - but his Destiny is unclear as well. He smells of a plant." ("Fate and Destiny are irrelevant.") Lilith: "He wants to enslave everything. I want to free everything. See the problem?" ("She wants everything to be free. I want everything to be under my control. See the problem?") Malphas: "Laurence and I have been working together since he arrived here. I create the faction, he puts it into power. What could be better?" ("Malphas is a useful tool at the moment.") Nybbas: "Oh, come on! The Borg are /so/ five years ago." ("His methods could be useful in conquest. I must make a note to visit him sometime.") Saminga: "Who cares what people believe in? They all die in the end." ("His means are messy, his ends are ignorant. I want nothing to do with this wretch.") Valefor: "Acquisition, conquest... there really isn't that much of a difference." ("He knows how to get what he wants - and it's rumored that he can get into Heaven without setting off alarms. He might be useful.") Vapula: "Excelsior! My gadgets keep him going!" ("If only he paid attention to quality control, I might be able to use what he offers.") BASIC RITES * Gain control of someone * Gain control of a large organization, and maintain control for one week (3 Essence) * Lead a major nation into invasive war (5 Essence) CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 2 INVOCATION MODIFIERS +1: Someone gaining control over someone else +2: A hostile takeover +3: A government exercising eminent domain +4: A newly annexed territory +5: A nation engaging in invasive war +6: The seat of power of an empire, or the outpost farthest from it Laurence will /always/ personally answer any invocation in which the invoker claims to have the Key to the Eternal City - regardless of who the invoker serves, unless the invoker is an Archangel. However, Laurence will also /know/ whether the invoker actually has the Key, and unless you have a very good reason, lying about having the Key is a good way to get yourself vessel-killed - at the least. - ----- Unique Relic: The Key to the Eternal City The Key is a powerful artifact; it acts as a skeleton key to the Eternal City in Heaven. It is normally held by Laurence, and if the General deigns to lend it to anyone, it is a sign of extreme trust in that individual. However, unbeknownst to most, the key also has a second function; Laurence is permanently attuned to it, and always knows in whose possession the Key resides. Laurence left the Key to the Eternal City behind when he left Heaven, under the assumption that it would return to him when the time was right for him to return to Heaven. Anyone invoking Laurence and claiming to have the Key will immediately find Laurence standing before them, but unless they actually /do/ have the key they will usually be subjected to the death of a Vessel - if not worse fates. (Laurence has been known to take angels to Hell with him and publicly strip their Forces away as punishment for this offense.) He will never, however, answer the call of an Archangel. The Key to the Eternal City has no character-point cost. It is a story element only, and should not be left in the hands of players for any longer than is necessary. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1420 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.