From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Nov 18 21:10:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06596 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:10:28 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA03859 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:15:57 -0600 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:15:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199911162215.QAA03859@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1421 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, November 16 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1421 In this digest: Re: IN> Alternate Ethereals Re: IN> Saints preserve us! Re: IN> Janus' Foil IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1419 Re: IN> Re: fluff and a Superior - was How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host [Pure Fluff] Re: IN> Saints preserve us! Re: Celestial Personality (was Re: IN> Impudite Resonance?) Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. Re: IN> Bright Bands RE: IN> Tether for Gabriel Re: Celestial Personality (was Re: IN> Impudite Resonance?) RE: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? RE: IN> Janus' Foil Re: IN> Shedite/Kyrio question Re: Celestial Personality (was Re: IN> Impudite Resonance?) Re: Adventures (was IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host) IN> Laurence, Outcast Archangel of the Sword Re: Celestial Personality (was Re: IN> Impudite Resonance?) Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. RE: IN> Impudite Resonance? Re: IN> Re: fluff and a Superior - was How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host [Pure Fluff] Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? IN> Michael and his job IN> Sow the Wind... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:17:03 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Ethereals Douglas Muir wrote: > Kewl. I don't use the Marches much, but I could see all of these as > potential plot seeds. > > Heck, I could see all of them as starting new religions. Thank you. Some of them have already started very old religions... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:11:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Saints preserve us! I agree it wouldn't be a common tactic, but it doesn't have to be common to be an adventure idea. And given that the main book says Lucifer even encourages wars in Hell between the Princes, I'm not sure Hell is capable of very tight security. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:05:48 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Janus' Foil >How is it "obvious" that Beelzebub died? The only reference /I/ can find >to him is in the IPG, where it lists him as a Famous Djinn (I ignored this >for purposes of Christopher), and the INcyclopedia lists him among the >living Superiors. Well I assume he predates Legion for several reasons. The first is that after the Legion incident Lucifer might be wary of giving out the Word again (and I am also a fan of the idea that Legion's remains do exist, a celestial conversation piece of Lucifer's and still holds the Word). The second is Legion comes pretty far after the Fall, and so I would assume that a Word like Corruption would be part of Lucifer's game plan from the get go. Something to counter Uriel directly. The third is that he is never mentioned anyware else, and a minor prince with a major Word in this day and age doesn't seem likely. However if he's listed as living its possible he was appointed after Legion, which is a little odd. However if he was Legion's only servitor I can see this, or was an old demon whose been petioning for this Word for some time and Lucifer had been with holding it for a worthy Shedite and when that turned out to be a bad thing he gave Beelzebub the Word. I would think that Beelzebub predates Legion, simply because it makes more sense to have had a Prince of Corruption for sometime and considering the power of the Word it would make sense that they were at one time a major Superior. Then when Uriel (most likely) did him in sometime in the past their was no Prince of Corruption until Legion showed the multipossesion trick and got the Word and then went nuts. Its true that it does mention him being dead in the IPG which would make sense, so maybe he's a very new Prince who we'll be hearing more from. As I look through my copy of the IPG it does indicates whether a famous band member is dead or not (like Demogorgon and Meserach). So I supose Beelzebub is alive, probably recently appointed to his Princedom, perhaps even without a principality (as no where is he mentioned in Heaven and Hell). I guess their is a mystery Prince in canon. One with a very powerful Word, no principality and no mention other than being a famous member of his Band. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:19:46 -0500 From: Ehrbar Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1419 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Bright Bands From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> Bright Bands Here, I'm going to address you both at once... > Maybe that's too far off from the Band definition, but it isn't > much further off than being Habbalah and NOT being deluded. > Earl > Depends on what you mean by 'corruption'. Take > the word propoganda, for example. It's simple a method > of convincing somebody of something, whether it's the > truth or a lie. Perhaps Bright Shedim change people's > worldview. They encourage them to do GOOD things and > make themselves better people. So they would seek out > the real lowlifes (to better extend their time on > Earth) and show them a new path. Of course, most humans > who are corrupt will backslide, but some might not... > +============================================= > + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook Well, that's how I originally was going to write up the Bright Shedim. The problem is that then they aren't really Shedim anymore. A Balseraph can canonically tell the truth without dissonance, a Djinn doesn't take dissonance for caring, Habbalah don't *have* to believe they are angels, Calabim can fight demons, Lilim can give stuff away without calling in a Geas, and Impudites can help people without draining them. It marks them as an atypical member of their Band, but any Bright is by definition an atypical member of the Band. But Shedim are required to make their hosts commit "an act of selfishness that indisputably harms someone," (IN p.51) or they take dissonance. For all the other Bright Bands, their original resonance is in place, although they might be limited in how they are allowed to use them. Their original dissonance conditions are still in force, with a new Heavenly one added. For the Shedim, though, the dissonance condition would have to change -- that is, they would have to cease being Shedim and become (IMHO) something different. No matter how much Novalis or Yves would *love* to have Bright Shedim (The Redeemers) turning the evil toward the light. So that's why I didn't include any Bright Shedim. But, if Beth isn't going to send minions to make you play the original game canonically, I certainly won't send any Bright Habbalah to shame you for using Bright Shedim. (Now to get to work writing up the various Bright Band attunements for the various Superiors...) Steven Ehrbar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:56:05 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Re: fluff and a Superior - was How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host [Pure Fluff] > Laurence, Angel Prince of Conquest I was hacking away at a Fallen Laurence writeup, but Laurence is a Malakite. Mr. Edelstein's notes on Dark Malakim were very useful. I imagined a Laurence whose oaths didn't account for the possibility that he might lose the war, and when it started to happen, those oaths came rolling back as dissonance, and then discord, and then Dark Malakimness. Here's something very important to consider with an Outcast Laurence: it's is *dissonant* for his servants to disobey him. If they do not follow him where he goes, they become *dissonant*. Thus, he'd have a lot of servants from Heaven Fall into Hell with him, or remain angels but still follow him. And what about all those darned Malakim who serve him? You could say it's a mass exodus as the angels of Laurence are taken by other Archangels, but it'd be hard to comprehend of a cadre of his servants *not* following him -- the most fanatic, hidebound, and loyal. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:04:06 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Saints preserve us! >I agree it wouldn't be a common tactic, but it doesn't have to be >common to be an adventure idea. True. >And given that the main book says Lucifer even encourages wars >in Hell between the Princes, I'm not sure Hell is capable of >very tight security. Mm, I'd say that would tend to *increase* security. Frex, I would expect the Infernal end of most tethers to be guarded tolerably well, to prevent a rival Prince from making a back-door attack via Earth. At a minimum, I should think most Princes would have a slap-the-button silent alarm type thingy to summon a rapid response team. Or a Djinn attuned to it, which would be about as good ("Something is threatening my special place! Ghraaargh!"). Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:24:18 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: Celestial Personality (was Re: IN> Impudite Resonance?) >From: Tim Groth >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Basicly it boils down to this. Superiors are practical, their going to >build celestials practicly. So tell me this. What type of demon do you build if you just want one which will be intelligent, competent, and capable of following orders? jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:49:06 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. > Ah, the problem is in the comparison. If I want a Balseraph to be a bruiser, > I can do it on starting stats with no problem (even more so if it's in > service to Baal). It can be decent at its attunement, with Will 7, and still > have 4 Corporeal Forces to fight angels with on Earth. I think, if the Impudite resonance didn't let you get essence, it would be easier to use. You've seen the math. Imagine if the bar were lowered -- how much easier it would be, and how much more abusive high Wills would be in the hands of an Impudite. Plus, it kind of overshadows other demonic resonances. A Balseraph can lie to you and hope his lies manipulate you. If an Impudite could just as easily use his resonance, you wouldn't need to lie to manipulate. You'd have 'em charmed. Likewise for Habbalah -- why bother playing with emotional crap when it's just as easy to charm 'em? And if you want to make an Impudite who can fight, give 'em three Corporeal Forces, two Ethereal Forces, and four Celestial Forces. Or bump him Ethereally instead, and give him big guns. And if you want him to be strong, and smart, and charming, and have access to essence, and be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound... well, he's *only* a nine-force starting character. :> So sure, other demons can just shuck a mediocre Will and hope for the best and still get a 55% chance of resonance success. I would personally prefer to make a character who could actually rely on his resonance as a useful tool, rather than a random loose cannon that sometimes works, but, even if you do just dump the 6 or 7 in Will, your resonance still isn't as useful as the Impudite's, or has other circumstances which make it risky. > jo Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:27:44 -0500 From: Ehrbar Subject: Re: IN> Bright Bands > Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:33:54 -0400 > From: Douglas Muir > Subject: Re: IN> Bright Bands > > Neat. Although some angels who worry about human free will might have a > problem with this (isn't making them believe the Truth dangerously like > forcing them to be good?) Depends on how non-interventionist the angel is. The basic argument comes down to, they don't have to act on the information, just know that it's True. Similarly, the Bright Habbalah give the person raw emotional material; how they use it is up to them. The resonances are somewhat coercive, but so is having a bunch of burly Malakim intimidating you. Compare this with Kyriotates and Bright Lilim. You don't have a choice but to do what the Kyrio posessing you wants you to do (you aren't even there to see what's happening), and you don't have a choice when a Bright Lilim calls in a Geas. > >Bright Impudites (The Charmers of Man) > > Most Impudites readily transform into Mercurians. The few who > >don't immediately have a new dissonance condition imposed -- they take > >dissonance when use their resonance to steal Essence from a human. > >However, they can voluntarily *fail* the roll with an automatic check > >digit of 1 in an attempt to gift the human with Essence, > > Er, actually it's canon that celestials can just give Essence at will. Oops. Hmm. > >and they can still try to siphon Essence from diabolicals. > > Hah. The Impudite resonance is worse than useless against opponents with a > serious Will. True. They still have the Charm to use on humans, though, and they can still suck a human if they need the Essence more than they need to avoid the dissonance. > Needs some rethinking here. Maybe they lose the essence-slurping power > (which is, after all, pretty demonic in nature) and gain... oh, something > else. Not sure what. Eh, I'll make it up to them in the various AA's Band/Chior resonances. I want to leave the basic resonance/dissonance mechanics the same for each Bright Band (which is why I don't have non-corruption Shedim) -- otherwise they're just a Chior that is similar to a Band. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:13:06 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Tether for Gabriel Tafka J wrote: > Yeah, but guess who started it? Gee. . . Didn't a Lighting Strike > start it?!? Hrmn. . . When I first read this, I was thinking that the Tetehr could be forked and shared by Gabriel (it is Fire), Jean (started by Lightning strike), and David (so far underground). It could make a good plot point. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:45:59 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: Celestial Personality (was Re: IN> Impudite Resonance?) At 1:24 PM -0800 11/18/99, Jo Hart wrote: >>From: Tim Groth >>Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >>Basicly it boils down to this. Superiors are practical, their going to >>build celestials practicly. > >So tell me this. What type of demon do you build if you just want >one which will be intelligent, competent, and capable of following >orders? > Djinn. Obsessive about their work but not caring enough to be ambitious. If you don't have specific needs, you go with Djinn. The fallback would be Lilim, if they weren't so expensive. But it seems to me most Superiors *will* have specific purposes anyway. It takes effort to craft a Demon instead of letting one Fledge out of an Imp. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:52:21 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Impudite Resonance? Ben wrote: > but the powers should fit the personality. if you take say a > seraph with a > perception of 4 then you should have that be in some way linked to the > character, the blindest seraph in heaven 5 of 6 eyes closed at all times. > in which case you should be perfectly willing to accept that you > would fail > a lot. > however, keep in mind that each angel or demons type is sort of like their > job in some ways. BY sticking so rigidly to these stereotypes you are (IMO) blinding yourself to one of the major themes of In Nomine: Free Will. If all celestials conform to the personality imposed upon them by a Resonance, then the argument that they have Free Will is given a severe blow. If they are able to step outside the mold and be something different, then the question of Free Will raises its ugly head again. By forcing a player to create a character a certain way (such as Impudites), you take the fun out of playing a character. Honestly, how many players do you have that like to play stereotypical characters? You may have a lot, but the groups I have seen always want their characters to be something a little different. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:35:02 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? At 14:18 -0500 11/18/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Agreed on all points. I'd have no problem with a player saying "we >can't do anything for a bit? I go graze." I might roll d666 just to >see how much essence they get -- the 2d6 would be the reaped Essence >up to their maximum, the check digit would be ignored, but an >Intervention would be considered an Intervention for the whole >process. Off-mechanic? Yup, but workable. Another fairly simple, and probably workable, mechanic is to do something like a single Will resonance roll for each hour of "grazing" in a reasonable area. The check digit would be the base amount of Essence gained, and the amount the roll succeeded or failed by as an additional modifier on the Essence gained (or lost). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:04:45 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Janus' Foil Just stepping in on this thread: > >How is it "obvious" that Beelzebub died? The only reference /I/ can find > >to him is in the IPG, where it lists him as a Famous Djinn (I > ignored this > >for purposes of Christopher), and the INcyclopedia lists him among the > >living Superiors. The GM's Guide timeline lists Beelzebub being slain in AD 455 by Uriel. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:06:36 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Shedite/Kyrio question At 10:01 -0500 11/18/99, John Karakash wrote: >Steel Angel wrote: >> >> Quick question...what about the brain dead of those in comas? How do you >> corrupt that? Do you start where the resident mind left off? How can you >> harm someone like that easily? Just wondering. While I'm at it, how about >> other Resonances like Impudites and Malakim? > > > The truly brain-dead are 'gone' and generate >no essence, can't be resonated (except as a just a >body) for information, etc. As to whether you can >possess one.... I'd say that the situation would >determine it (i.e. GM's call), but that Shedim would >take dissonance for not being able to corrupt the >host. Another possibility is that the human mind is stuck in the Marches, and if possessed by a Shedite (or Kyrio, but not using the Song), the possessor would join the human mind in the Marches, essentially taking over his projection there. (In this case, I'd maybe let Kyrios *join* with the human mind like Shedim do... ick!) Resonances would work, in this case, though if the coma had been long-term, there might not be much result from the Malakite or Mercurian ones. There might also be serious resonance penalties (for the subject being sort of out-of-realm). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:49:48 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Celestial Personality (was Re: IN> Impudite Resonance?) At 16:24 -0500 11/18/99, Jo Hart wrote: >So tell me this. What type of demon do you build if you just want one which >will be intelligent, competent, and capable of following orders? Actually, I'm not sure a DP *wants* someone like that -- in Hell, intelligent + competent = potential threat unless you've got some hold over them. And pretty much any demon can fit the above -- remember that mere human stats average a bit above 3; a 5 is pretty outstanding for a human. But it's not unusual in even a 7-Force demon. I think one problem here is that IN's die roll mechanics make just about everyone seem routinely incompetent, when in fact this shouldn't be the case. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:02:21 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Adventures (was IN> How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host) At 20:32 -0500 11/18/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Eeyore wrote: > >> >There's a famous science fiction novel, "The Demolished Man," by Alfred >> >Bester, which tackles a similar problem. In this case, the detective >> >is a telepath, and can quickly discern the murderer in the case. However, >> >societal constraints on telepaths don't allow him to directly testify >> >(if I recall the plot correctly). So he has to go through a lot of work >> >to deal with the situation -- yeah, he had the answer, but he was also >> >forced to "show his work". The principles Bester used can be translated >> >directly over to In Nomine. > > Unfortunately, many Celestials are in no way constrained by -human- law. >Nothing stops a lot of them from dealing out their own justice as long as it >isn't Dissonant. Now Judgies may want to do this for their Rite, but I'm sure >an equal number of them just punish an offender as they deserve. And then there >are the Gabrielites... And this is when the GM should start whacking the PCs with the corporeal consequences from their actions. Killing random humans is both noisy and attracts far too much attention from human authorities. It's certainly an option, but it's not particularly safe for any celestial with a Role to do this, or one who's likely to hang around town for any time. Beating them up is even worse -- it leaves someone to complain to the cops. Sometimes it works, but it should be preferable to most PCs to simply use *human* institutions to accomplish their goals. (This doesn't have to be the authorities, per se -- it could be the Mafia, the local street gang, or 60 Minutes.) Likewise, they should be concerned that their enemies won't turn human institutions on *them*. Working within the system is a lot closer to the goals of both sides than simple street warfare. Yes, there are loose cannon types on both sides. This is where the more sensible PCs should be restraining the hotheads and idiots. Anyway, if your players simply take the brute force approach to everything, tossing a mystery at them is usually going to be something of a waste. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:13:31 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Laurence, Outcast Archangel of the Sword Here is what I originally wrote up for Laurence's alternate version in Superiors 1, before it was decided that alternate versions should be canned. I'm not sure whether this even appeared in the playtest. - -------------------------- Laurence the Outcast Laurence could never become a Demon Prince, of course -- he is a Malakite. But many of Uriel's most loyal Servitors refused to swear service to Laurence or any other Archangel, and became technical Outcasts instead (p. 00). If Laurence were just a little less incorruptible, if his loyalty to Uriel had edged out his devotion to the greater cause of Heaven, he could have easily been among them. What if Laurence's devotion to Christianity became an obsession, leading him to support the Church over Heaven itself? Then it might have been Khalid who became General of the Host, and Laurence who became a virtual exile, dwelling in the Marches or staying among the faithful on Earth. Here is Laurence as he might have been, Malakite Archangel of the Sword, leader of the Outcast Tsayadim. Laurence, the Outcast Archangel of the Sword The world is balanced on a razor's edge. Make sure you know on which side you stand. Laurence is a Malakite, following his own code of honor to the bitter end. He could not stand to leave Uriel's work unfinished -- old gods still hide in the Far Marches, and ethereal spirits still dare to intrude in the corporeal realm, tempting and corrupting humans as surely as demons do. Moreover, the Church -- the Holy Catholic Church, the only institution that can bring salvation to the world through God's only begotten Son -- is undefended. Heaven occupies itself with other battles as God's Church is corrupted by demons, weakened by pagan-sympathetic attitudes, and forced back by the godless advance of secular humanist philosophies. Someone had to take a stand. Laurence became an Archangel in the turmoil following Uriel's recall to the Higher Heavens, but rather than taking command of the Host, he turned his back on the petty politics of the Seraphim Council, and took the fight directly to the Enemy. He now spends most of his time on Earth, though many of his Servitors prowl the Marches -- the Purification Crusade never ended, as far as Laurence is concerned. His Cathedral in Heaven is all but abandoned, and it's rumored Laurence has set up his own domain somewhere in the Far Marches, an outpost deep in enemy territory. His status as an "Outcast" is questionable -- who can really cast out an Archangel? But he left his sigil behind when he walked out of the Seraphim Council, and he does not follow orders from the General of the Host. He enforces his own laws, and does not recognize the Inquisition's authority . . . though he judges his own Servitors more harshly than Dominic would. Most of Heaven regards him as a dangerous loose cannon, a rebel who would have Fallen long ago if he weren't a Malakite. But his single-minded ferocity makes him a powerful, if dangerous ally, and some of the more militant Archangels occasionally lend him quiet support. Laurence is uncompromisingly Catholic, and all his Servitors must be as well. He "excommunicates" Servitors who fail to defend the Church, or who question the authority of the Pope . . . or Laurence. Laurence tolerates other Christian denominations -- barely -- but regards every other religion as a "pagan cult." Dissonance Angels of the Sword must be good, obedient Catholics. Disobeying the letter or the spirit of Laurence's orders causes dissonance. Anything the Church regards as sinful is also dissonant, though this dissonance disappears if the Servitor confesses, either to a Catholic priest or to a higher-ranking angel of the Sword. Choir Attunements Seraphim Seraphim of the Sword recognize devout Catholics on sight, and in battle, know whether their opponents are ultimately fighting for or against the Church or Heaven (in that order -- a Muslim Soldier of God would register as "against" . . .). Cherubim (Restricted) Cherubim of the Sword know the religious beliefs of anyone to whom they are attuned . . . and do not suffer dissonance for harming pagans or atheists. Ofanim Same as for the normal version of Laurence. Elohim (Restricted) When Elohim of the Sword apply their resonances, they automatically see any religious motivations in their subjects, in addition to other information, and they know what religious "buttons" to push to sway someone for or against a particular cause. Malakim (Restricted) When Laurence's Malakim apply their resonances, they see not only their subject's noble and ignoble deeds relative to his own standards, but relative to those of whatever religion he subscribes to . . . if any. Kyriotates (Restricted) Kyriotates of the Sword excel at tracking ethereals and their mortal followers. They suffer no penalties for operating on the corporeal and ethereal planes simultaneously, and can take a celestial action on each plane during the same turn (Angelic Player's Guide, p. 55). Mercurians (Restricted) Mercurians of the Sword can use their natural resonance to know what religion a mortal was baptized into, and what part religion plays in his life now. Servitor Attunements The Blade Blessing of Laurence Same as for the normal version of Laurence. Hunt Same as for the normal version of Laurence. Distinctions Vassal of the Sword Laurence's Vassals can remain serious under any circumstances, even demonic provocation, and can judge the seriousness of others. Friend of the Church The angel can grant the above ability to other Servitors of the Sword, or to devout Catholics, up to a number of people equal to his Celestial Forces. Master of the Divine Sacraments Laurence's Masters must be both warriors and theologians, steeped in Catholic doctrines. They have the ability to hear confessions from other angels of the Sword, and assign penance -- a punishment or quest that will purge the confessee of a single point of dissonance. (Multiple points of dissonance must be dealt with separately, one at a time.) Relations Laurence is not a part of Heavenly society, but he does have dealings with some Archangels. Heaven's militant faction regards him as a resource, though not exactly an ally, but the more peaceful Archangels (especially Novalis and Blandine) find him abhorrent. Allied: None. Associated: David, Michael Hostile: Everyone else Basic Rites * Slay an evil creature . . . or any ethereal spirit or pagan Soldier * Spend a whole night hunting your prey. * Spend four hours praying in a Catholic church Chance of Invocation: 2 Invocation Modifiers +1 A practice sword +2 The Catholic Bible +3 A high-quality sword +4 A group of Catholics going into battle +5 A fine sword engraved with the Lord's Prayer +6 A sword blessed by the Pope ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:11:30 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: Celestial Personality (was Re: IN> Impudite Resonance?) >So tell me this. What type of demon do you build if you just want one which >will be intelligent, competent, and capable of following orders? You go to Vapula and try out his Uber-Demon design which has every resonance, picks up forces quickly and unlike the beta version doesnt' randomly explode. Seriously though the average demon is smart (even 2 ethereal forces allows for an intelligence higher than human average), competent is subjective. They will build demons with the skills they need. Most demons follow orders, and if your smart you understand said orders and your superiors won't give them orders they can't fufil. So the real answer is you build any demon. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:08:34 -0500 From: Tim Groth (by way of Elizabeth McCoy) Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. [BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type / \ b u n s \ w * b / i at line 2] (B-u-n-s is an admin request that bouces email??) Anyway, forwarding this... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:00:08 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Resonances, and Geasa. >Won't help against resonance _and_ a Will that are probably both an >effective 15. Not unless the Seraph is already psychologically unstable. >(And are Dominican Seraphim allowed to wander around like that? Not often...) I was under the impression that if a Seraph fell victom to a Balseraph's resonance they wouldn't believe their own resonance (IPG p27). However Seraphim are difficult to manipulate, which is why I think Balseraphs would consider it a rite of passage of sorts. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:17:48 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: RE: IN> Impudite Resonance? >BY sticking so rigidly to these stereotypes you are (IMO) blinding yourself >to one of the major themes of In Nomine: Free Will. If all celestials >conform to the personality imposed upon them by a Resonance, then the >argument that they have Free Will is given a severe blow. If they are able >to step outside the mold and be something different, then the question of >Free Will raises its ugly head again. By forcing a player to create a >character a certain way (such as Impudites), you take the fun out of playing >a character. Honestly, how many players do you have that like to play >stereotypical characters? You may have a lot, but the groups I have seen >always want their characters to be something a little different. You don't have to force them to play a sterotypical character, just explain why their Superior built them in a way that doesn't mesh well with their innate tendancies. Beyond this celestials do start out rather sterotypically, they grow into less sterotypical beings. They can be different, but they probably won't deviate too far from the get go. They start with major predispositions towards things. They also have a built in conditioning system. Dissonance is not fun, beyond hindering their innate abilities I would imagine it is unpleasent. It is possibly to ignore it and go against ones nature enough to Fall (keeping the free will argument alive) but most celestials probably shy away from dissonance causing actions. This is why in all of my campeigns the characters who are celestials start as young celestials. More room for growth. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:34:09 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Re: fluff and a Superior - was How and Why Laurence Became the General of the Host [Pure Fluff] At 01:08 PM 11/18/99 -0700, you wrote: >LILIM >The target of a Lilim of Conquest's resonance does /not/ get a Will roll to >resist the favor she asks of him, unless his Will is higher than hers. >Alternately, the Lilim can - when she first makes the Perception roll - >choose to allow the victim a Will roll, but the check digit of a failed >roll adds to the level of the Geas she can inflict! (Numbers over 6 add >/another Geas to the list, of a level equal to the excess, in addition to >the Geas/6. Example: Lily allows Tom a Will roll when she detects that he >needs $40,000 to keep his company solvent - a level 4 Need. Lily talks to >Tom about this, and he agrees to the exchange. She then produces the >$40,000. He attemps to resist - surely she had inside information! He >fails, though, with a check digit of 5. Tom now owes Lily a Geas/6 /and/ a >Geas/3!) This just seems too powerful to me. I think it should be more of a gamble or less of an advantage i.e. if the human succeeds to resist then the successful check digit reduces the level of the geas. Below 0 places a geas on the lilim. you could call it a double edged sword >("He understands my desire to overwhelm everything. Where my tastes run to >religion, his tastes run to chicken. I don't hold that against him.") I am still laughing at this line. >Kronos: "All I know is that he has yet to achieve his Fate - but his >Destiny is unclear as well. He smells of a plant." this really confused me at first. I thought kronos was either implying that Laurence had been rolling arond in the grass or smoking marijuana. It was very confusing. All in all a really fun writeup. good ideas in this one. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 01:48:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Impudite Resonance? One thing that came up in those whole discussion that I've been meaning to say for a while - could people please watch that at least some point in a post where commenting on someone else's interpretation of a concept that that a sentence doesn't boil down to - if you disagree with me you are obviously a munchkin. Really irritating. Thanks. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:21:56 EST From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: IN> Michael and his job In regards to Michael and being Heaven's first general, it was said: >You're free to see it any way you like, of course. But that's not canon. >Canonically, he was granted the position by God. I was not aware of this. However, this raises the question of why he quit. It no longer becomes a thing of just being harassed by Dominic. Instead, Michael chose to abandon the duty given to him by God. By my reading of Michael, this seems completely against what was written of him. Indeed, it has shades of Lilith and Eden. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:03:07 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: IN> Sow the Wind... Janus Demon Prince of the Whirl Wind "The world is ashes. Ashes in the wind." Janus fell. Proving almost conclusively that he isn't Valefor. Not many know why he fell, his most faithful servant the Angel of Change reported to the Seraphim council that the reason for the fall was inner dissonance to himself. No Demon was on hand to trip him, but the fact is that the wind stopped and everyone know that when the wind stops it dies. Now he wants to take out everything as well. Lucifer was happy to see the fastest of wheels fall and embrace pure Entropy; in fact, he had a word waiting for him. As the demon prince of the Whirlwind Janus fell the need to keep everything at a maximum of confusion and chaos. He still tries to keep things actively changing but never for the better. The first thing Janus did after arriving in hell was to carve himself a principality out of hell adjacent to Sheol. Janus' Domain is one of near complete emptiness where demons and infernal souls travel (or exist) on ever changing air currents and the few stations of rock to orient yourself to frequently crumble to dust. Dissonance It is dissonant for an Angel of the Whirlwind to change something for the better. Everything they do must contribute to the ultimate destruction of order. Choir Attunements Balseraphs: Balseraphs get a bonus to the check digit equal to the celestial forces when trying to convince someone to reduce the order in a place/group/thing. Djinn: The stalkers of the whirlwind are sent to take down icons of order. They are therefore free to destroy their attuned if it is a symbol of order. Calabim: Janus' Calabim are true destroyers. Calabim not only get a bonus to their resonance target number equal to their corporeal forces, they also only create 1/2 the disturbance they would normally when using explosives. Habbalah: The Horrors of Janus are frightening creatures. They receive a bonus to their resonance check digit equal to their ethereal forces when they try to inflict an emotion that will result in the victim either destroying themselves or what they care about. Lilim: The Lilim of Janus' geis may not be resisted if the geis will cause chaos and confusion. Shedim: Shedim of Janus are unstable in any plane of existence and require a host body that Janus supplies. This usually takes the form of a demonic familiar or other servant worth five times the celestial forces of the demon. This servant does not have to be corrupted while possessed and may not resist the possession (note that a demonling may be possessed on any plane with this attunement regardless of weather there is an actual body to possess). Impudites: The Impudites of the Whirlwind specialize in destroying relationships and faith. There is no penalty to an Impudites of the Whirlwind's resonance when charming victims. Servitor Attunements: Reap the Whirlwind This attunement allows the user to summon an uncontrollable whirlwind with a force equivalent to the essence spent to power the attunement. No essence spent will produce a dust devil, while if a demon could muster 50 essence he could summon a full blown tornado. The whirlwind lasts a d6 minutes. Fan the Flames This attunement allows the demon to accelerate the inherent entropic collapse of an item a number of years equal to 2*(celestial forces + word forces). Relations The first of the prime elemental angels to fall Janus received a warm welcome (especially on Belial's part) into the hellish fold. He quickly established a working relation ship with Belial and Saminga is fond of him. Most of the Impudite princes annoy him as the Shal-Mari block try's to halt the end of all. Allied: Belial (Belial is allied with Janus) Associated: No One (Saminga is associated with Janus) Neutral: Everyone Else Hostile: Kobal, Nybbas, Valefor Enemy: Andrealphus Rites: * Cause a stable organization to become so confused it cannot act. * Knock down a structure that has stood for 100 years. (+1 essence if done using nothing but the wind) * Drop a concussion grenade in a school playground filled with kids. Chance of Invocation: 0 Invocation Modifiers: Janus is no more easy to get the attention of as a Demon Prince but you can occasionally attract the attention of the Whirlwind if you _really_ want to. +1 a sheet of broken glass +2 deface a public street sign +3 a broken monument +4 blow up a car +5 a tornado in direct unaided line of sight +6 fall through the air for more than 10 seconds ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1421 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.