From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Nov 22 20:18:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29696 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:18:00 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id TAA30815 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:26:17 -0600 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:26:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199911230126.TAA30815@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1427 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, November 22 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1427 In this digest: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess (v 2.0) Re: IN> Shedite Assassins (was: Bright Bands) Re: IN> The Destiny and Fate of all Humanity re: IN> One Tough Taker Re: IN> Dissonance for Stoners IN> IN Heresy Survey Ends IN> Malakim and demonic honor (was One Tough Taker) IN> Malakim and Dissonance (was One Tough Taker) IN> Judgement dissonance ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 00:00:46 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Zadkiel, Demon Princess (v 2.0) Okay, here is the expanded writeup on Fallen Zadkiel. I've added some more descriptive material, attunements, Words, and (at the end) some plot seeds. Anyone can copy and use this freely; just keep the little credit line at the very bottom. Doug M. * * * * Zadkiel, Demon Princess of Codependence "The World is foolish and wicked and weak. We must protect it, from itself if need be." How'd she fall? Heaven knows, but I don't. Did something break that big warm Cherubic heart? Or did she just come to take her Word all too seriously, seeking to protect her charges even when Protection wasn't really what they needed? However it happened, Fall she did, and now she's one of the Djinn. And while she still seems nice enough at first glance, in fact she's scary even by Djinnish standards. Asmodeus is cynical, Beleth is brooding... but Zadkiel *smiles*. She still has a deep understanding of human frailty. But now she wants, not just to protect that frailty, but to preserve it. All the flaws and follies of humanity come under her new Word: where before she would seek to protect the sinner, now she guards the sin. (Is she mad as any Habbalite, or does that too-warm smile hide the bitter and broken heart of a typical Djinn? You go ask her, I don't care to, thanks) Falling hasn't changed her external appearance much. She still manifests as a warm, maternal figure with soft features and bright, understanding eyes. _Very_ understanding eyes. No matter what evil you've done, what horrors you may have committed, Zadkiel wants you to know that she's there for you. Stolen from your business? It's Zadkiel who'll find a way to help you cook the books to get away with it. Got a drug habit? Fleurity gets you hooked, but it's Zadkiel who will find a hundred ways for you to lie and steal to get that next fix. Pedophile, serial killer, member of an ethnic-cleansing death squad? She knows you can't help yourself... it's your so-called victims' fault, really... and she'll help you find a way to escape retribution, human or divine. (Of course, the people Zadkiel "helps" tend to end up in Hell, eventually. But that's okay, too. She has been building a _very special_ Principality on the outskirts of Shal-Mari...) "Codependence" is a new Word, and when Lucifer granted it to the fallen Cherub, many demons thought it might be some sort of odd joke. It isn't. Zadkiel is a new Princess, but her Word is a powerful one; everyone who tolerates human wickedness for some bad reason feeds her. Does a bleeding-heart liberal campaign for the release of an unquestionably guilty killer who has become a poster child against the death penalty? Zadkiel is served. Does a conservative politician oppose much-needed safety and environmental legislation, because corporate sponsors are contributing to his campaign? Why, that serves Zadkiel, too. Zadkiel also seeks to foster codependent relations between humans. As an Archangel, she worked closely with Yves and Novalis to encourage humans to help and protect each other. Now, she works closely with Andrealphus, Fleurity, and the other Princes of self-indulgence to help humans protect each others' weaknesses and sins. More conservative demons may shake their heads -- what kind of Word is this for a Superior? -- but Zadkiel, formerly a rather conservative Archangel, has turned into a thoroughly modern and up-to-date Demon Princess, and her Word is giving her plenty of room to grow. Already she has surpassed several of the minor Princes, and her power is still increasing. This age of the world, with its complications, rationalizations, and excuses, is a good time for her. If nothing intervenes, she'll soon be a major Princess, perhaps even more powerful than she was as an Archangel. Dissonance Demons of Zadkiel are charged with the protection and encouragement of human wickedness and folly. It is dissonant for these demons to allow a human to be reformed, redeemed, or even seriously distracted from the path of evil. Band Attunements Balseraphs -- Balseraphs of Zadkiel add their Ethereal Forces to their resonance roll when trying to make someone believe something that will hurt themselves or others. "Of course you don't have a problem. You can quit any time you want to!" Djinn -- The ultimate codependents, Zadkiel's Djinn must always choose one human to whom they are attuned as their Charge. Their check digit is always assumed to be 6 when using their resonance on their Charge. Calabim -- Calabim of Codependence double the check digit of their resonance when attacking any person or thing that seeks to redeem or reform a sinner or correct an evil. They are frequently tasked with sabotaging drug rehab clinics, destroying evidence, and the like. Habbalah -- Zadkiel's Habbalah know those who are in emotional pain, especially those who will hurt themselves or others. They also know how to point out the most destructive possible avenues for releasing these emotions. A successful roll will cause the subject, not only to feel the emotions inflicted by the Habbalite, but to follow the demon's instructions in discharging his emotions for minutes equal to the check digit. (This attunement only works if the subject already felt the emotion, at least a little, before the resonance was applied. The Habbalite could use its resonance to create the emotion, of course, but this would require another roll) Note that "destructive" does not always mean "violent"; making a human fall obsessively in love with just the wrong person can be far more destructive than any act of anger or hatred... Lilim -- Like Lilim of Fate, these demons can see Discord (or those human personality traits that resemble discord) in the eyes of others. They regenerate 1 essence whenever they convince (or Geas) a human to do something that will hurt himself or others. Zadkiel encourages her Lilim to use geases to bind humans to each other in dysfunctional and destructive ways. Shedim -- Shedim of Codependence corrupt their hosts in the usual manner, but generate a point of Essence for every evil act they make their hosts commit. Each day, they can generate Essence equal to their celestial forces in this manner. Impudites -- Impudites of Codependence are the friends you _don't_ need. With a touch and a successful Perception roll, they can tell a subject's moral weaknesses... from minor failings on a 1, to his greatest flaw on a 6. They add their ethereal forces to any Fast-Talk, Lie, or Seduction skill roll that plays on or encourages any such failing (if they don't have those skills, then they default to the number of their ethereal forces when trying this). They also get +2 charisma at all times. Servitor Attunements I'm OK, You're OK -- Grants the target complete moral certainty as to his health, the uprightness of his character, and the righteousness of his cause. Thus an addict would become sure that he was healthy, a criminal would be sure that society made him do it, etc. Can be resisted with a Will roll (though the subject may not always want to resist, of course). Lasts for hours equal to the check digit, and the demon must touch the target. A Note From the Doctor -- With a successful Will roll, the demon can create a highly plausible excuse or explanation for one incident or one action committed by the subject. Treat this like a Balseraph's resonance, except that it "sticks" to the subject and lasts for days equal to the check digit. The excuse will either show that the subject was not at fault for his action or, if this is not possible, will sharply diminish his culpability. With an expenditure of an additional 1 to 3 essence, the demon can also create physical evidence to support the excuse... 1 essence might produce bruises on the subject to show that she poisoned her husband in self defence, while 3 essence would produce a lengthy criminal file on the husband and a bloody cudgel in his briefcase. The evidence will disappear when the resonance expires. (Note that this Attunement is intended for use in protecting humans from the consequences of their actions. Demons who use it to cover up their own mistakes will find that it doesn't work on Zadkiel herself, nor on demons of the Game.) Distinctions Knight of Protection from Interference -- A Knight can sense whenever someone is trying to reform a sinner, redeem a demon, help an addict, or is otherwise seeking to fight evil and moral weakness. Check vs. the demon's perception plus celestial forces. The check digit indicates how many tens of yards the demons can sense, plus how specific the sense will be (from "someone in this room is trying to help fight violence" to "that guy right there is a an experienced church worker running a program to get troubled youth out of gangs and into jobs") Captain of Codependence -- With a successful Perception roll on a subject, a Captain discovers the person or institution in the subject's life who can best help the subject maintain or expand a particular sin, addiction, or bad habit. The demon should have some idea what the subject's bad habits are before using this attunement, or he may not be able to make sense of the answer he gets. This attunement is handy for matching alcoholics with drinking buddies, abusive spouses with passive or masochistic mates, and the like. But it also works on Celestials. Other demons and even angels are learning not to let Zadkiel's Captains find out too much about them... Baron of Human Frailty -- A Baron can use the Malakim Resonance table, subject to the following restrictions: it costs him one Essence; he always knows the ignoble aspects of a subject, never the noble ones; and a roll of 6 on the check digit must be re-rolled, except on an intervention. Relations Zadkiel has found her legs in Hell with surprising speed, and has established a small Principality and a modest but secure power base. She is now in the process of finding her place in the underworld's pecking order. Zadkiel has quickly forged good relations with those Princes who specialize in self-indulgence; their Words work naturally well together, and so do they. Kronos, too, has shown approval of the new Princess; as she promotes her Word, she gives him new ways to manipulate humans towards their Fates. The more conservative and more aggressive Princes tend to be somewhat suspicious of her. Beleth and Lilith, in particular, have taken a swift dislike to their new sister. Beleth hates her because Zadkiel works to make humans _feel good_, at least in the short run... and perhaps, too, because Beleth can't stand the sight of a fallen Cherub who still seems to be enjoying herself. Lilith's dislike is more abstract, but not much less intense. Andrealphus -- "Oh, yes. Lovely lady, we are going to make *beautiful* music together." Andrealphus heartily approves of the new Princess; their Words work well together without competing, and he also likes the fact that she's another (relatively) well-mannered and gracious Superior. He couldn't have *stood* another Saminga... Andre has even loaned some Word-bound to help her get set up. Asmodeus -- "Not as simple as she seems... Lucifer has given her a new and complex Word, and she is rising to the challenge. She plays her own game well." Asmodeus cautiously approves of this energetic new Superior, though of course he's watching her carefully at all times. Baal -- "It's a lot of nonsense. Wars are won by fighting, not helping each other feel good about ourselves. Frankly, I liked her better on the other side." Beleth -- "Smiling, cooing, simpering fool. They say _that's_ frightening? She'd better stay away from my Marches." Belial -- "Uh... what Baal said." Fleurity -- "Oh. Oh, it's love, my dear. Hit the vein, and push it ALL the way in..." Fleurity likes Zadkiel just fine, but there might be some trouble ahead; a Habbalite, he wants to punish the weak, not protect them. It's not an issue yet, though. Haagenti -- "You hold the plate, babe, and I'll hold the fork!" Kobal -- "Hi, I'm from Hell, I'm here to help you. Heh heh heh." Kobal thinks Zadkiel and her Word are oodles of fun. However, he's annoyed at her right now because she tried to poach the Word of Spoiled Children from him, so he's neutral rather than friendly. Kronos -- "Yes. This is how we help them find their fates... by blinding them to themselves, and to all other possibilities. I approve." Kronos is the only Prince friendly to Zadkiel who isn't part of the Shal-Mari crowd. His approval has gone a long way towards securing her position. Lilith -- "Mmm, she seeks to enslave us, even if only to ourselves. What she does subverts choice and free will. And doesn't Hell have enough Princesses? Get rid of her." It's not completely clear why Lilith dislikes Zadkiel as much as she does, but she does. Malphas -- "I like what she does, but I hate the way she does it. She has them helping each other, even if it's only help down the road to Hell. We each of us fall alone. She doesn't *understand*." Malphas is hostile, which means that Zadkiel should probably be watching her Servitors very closely. Nybbas -- "Ethnic cleansing? No, it's self-determination! Murder? Ha, it's self defense! Rape? Hey, she was begging for it! Child abuse? We call it discipline! This girl has the real creative touch! I see big, big numbers!" Dysfunctional relationships and human weakness are the soul of entertainment; Nybbas is sure that Zadkiel is going to provide plenty of raw material for him. Hell's media has been depicting her in a favorable light since she first arrived, which has helped her get established quickly. Zadkiel owes Nybbas, and she knows it. Saminga -- "Who cares about her? Dead is dead, whether you feel good about it or not." Valefor -- "She protects people from the consequences of their actions. Is that really a good thing? Incompetent thieves _should_ get caught..." Vapula -- "She protects people from the consequences of their actions, and that's a good thing. Technology shouldn't have to worry about consequences. Also, I like the way she's moving with the times." Allied: Andrealphus, Fleurity, Nybbas Associated: Haagenti, Kronos Hostile: Baal, Belial, Malphas Enemy: Lilith, Beleth Words: As a late arrival in Hell, Zadkiel found that a lot of the obvious Words that might have come under hers were already claimed by Servitors of other Princes (Spouse Abuse, Bartenders, Coverups, and Therapists, to name a few). But she has shown herself quite creative at coming up with new ones, from Self-Help Manuals to Tolerance. And she has also shown a distinct tendency to pursue existing Words by one means or another. Her greatest coup to date has been the acquisition of the venerable word of Excuses. The previous holder (an ancient Servitor of Sloth who had transferred his allegiance to Malphas) expired recently under sudden and mysterious circumstances; Zadkiel entered her claim simply by announcing a Hell-wide contest. Over Malphas' loud protest, Lucifer has allowed this to proceed. Since this is a major Word with a number of sub-words already under it (including the subtle and powerful Balseraph of Alibis and the limping little demon of Lame Excuses), the competition is expected to be fierce. Because her Word is a complex one that overlaps with many others, Zadkiel will probably be trying to poach Words and Word-Bound from other Princes for some time to come. Hell being Hell, this is sure to lead to trouble before long. Meanwhile, she's getting a steady stream of new applicants, ambitious demons who are willing to take a chance. Servitors: Zadkiel is one of the less obviously horrible Superiors, but that doesn't mean she's still an angel. She runs a tight ship, regularly checking up on her Servitors "for their own good". Dissonance and Discord will be noticed quickly and dealt with mercilessly... and few demons care to go through Zadkiel's "therapy" more than once. Zadkiel also expects her Servitors to have a smile on their faces. They are, after all, *helping* people. Some demons find this difficult. In terms of organization, she's still in the shakedown period; a surprising number of Servitors report directly to her without any intermediary. She has several Word-bound who fell with her and were given new Words, but she has wisely mixed these with new recruits from Hell. So far, Zadkiel hasn't had any Renegades, so security around her demons' Hearts is quite light. This may change, as Zadkiel is probably not going to tolerate Renegades very well. There's nothing a codependent hates worse than rejection... Tethers: Zadkiel has only a few Tethers so far, mostly in places like quack feel-good therapy centers and the sorts of expensive "resorts" where wealthy families sent members with addictions and bad habits to cool their heels for a while. Basic rites Spend two hours convincing a human that he should feel good about his flaws or vices no matter what people may say (1 essence). Place a human in a dysfunctional relationship with another human (1 essence, +1 more essence if the relationship encourages a vice or character flaw in either human, +1 more essence if the relationship lasts more than a month). Remove a human from a situation where that human would undergo help or treatment for a moral flaw or addiction (1 essence). Invocation modifiers +1 A self-help book that really doesn't +2 A person (other than a Balseraph) denying that he has a problem, when he does +3 Someone who has taken back an abusive spouse +4 Someone explaining to an audience why an atrocity was necessary, or the burned-out ruins of a drug rehab center +5 A criminal or drug addict, previously reformed, who has relapsed within the last six hours +6 The successful coverup of a major political scandal "for the good of the country" Plot seeds -- One of Zadkiel's Servitors believes that it should be possible to spark the creation of a major Tether of Codependence by creating an appropriate internation situation! The Servitor wants to arrange for international forces to intervene in a small country to improve things there, perhaps by saving an ethnic minority or stopping a famine. Then, the intervention should make things *worse*... and finally, the small country should become dependent on further interventions... codependence on a truly massive scale. This is a long shot, but if it works, the Servitor and anyone who helps him will be massively rewarded. -- An important mortal politician is wrestling with an addiction -- to sex, to alchohol, whatever. A direct attack on the politician would certainly attract Heaven's attention. But Zadkiel's particular strength is indirection... and the politician's spouse has long been a codependent enabler to the addictive behavior. Zadkiel is mounting a campaign to get at the politician through the spouse. Demon PCs might become involved helping this; Angels would be trying to detect and thwart it. If Zadkiel succeeds, Nybbas will make sure she gets plenty of publicity, and her power will grow accordingly. -- Heaven is holding a job search for Zadkiel's replacement; the Word of Protection is up for grabs. This is a very powerful Word -- any angel that takes it will probably achieve Superior status soon thereafter -- but PCs could get involved in the competition in a variety of ways. Zadkiel, too, may try to interfere. She's Fallen, and she's pretty busy these days, but that doesn't mean she takes no interest anymore... -- Zadkiel wants to acquire a fairly important Word that is held by a Servitor of another Prince. If the Prince is friendly, this could involve negotiation. Otherwise... well, if the Word-holder is no more, the Word goes up for grabs. This sort of thing can easily lead to open conflict, of course. And while Zadkiel is still building her power, she really can't afford a major conflict with another Prince. So subtlety is called for here... Douglas Muir 1999 douglas.muir@yale.edu . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 00:02:10 -0600 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> Shedite Assassins (was: Bright Bands) > Now there's an atypical character concept. A Shedite 'Terror Trooper' >or something. Get the Will up -fairly- high, pump up Corp Forces and take >some Vessel levels (I -think- they correspond to extra HP, least that's >how I've seen it run) and you have the -ultimate- sneak-attack assassin. >Bodyjump someone, slave them down, and attack your target, then leave >when things are done. Hard for anyone to track and terrifying enough to >engender -major- paranoia in anyone who knows 'something's not right, >here.' I'd figure a Shedite is about the worst thing to have chasing you. Sure, a Malakite may be big and mean, but at least you can recognize him (unless he's been using the Song of Form or has extra vessels you've never met), and while he may be Trauma-proof, he still has to round up a new vessel before he can come after you again, giving him a turnaround time of at least a few hours. A Shedite on your trail, on the other hand, means you can trust no one. Even if he can't possess you directly, he can be anyone you trust, and even if he's not strong-willed enough to overcome aversions towards hurting you, he could get the host to "accidentally" do all sorts of minor things that have much nastier consequences. Plus, killing him is almost futile. Even if you do it quickly enough, all he gets is a point of dissonance, and he'll be back with a new host before the old one is done bleeding. Kyriotates are almost as bad, except that they actually need to care for the host, rather than being able to run it into the ground. - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 00:11:03 -0600 From: Santiago Subject: Re: IN> The Destiny and Fate of all Humanity >>What if its Humanity's >>Destiny to create machine Intelligence and then help it develop until it can >>spread throughout the Galaxy? And what if its our Fate to try to enslave >>machine intelligence so that it serves Humans, in the way that demons want >>humans to serve them? > > Gee, I feel sorry for the AIs. Poor humanity, never achieve -that- >Destiny. Humans can't even get along with -each other-, let alone a >new form of sapient life. The only flaw I can see with the idea is, >if that -is- humanity's Destiny, then the War is over before the >trumpet blows. No wonder Yves is maudlin all the time. Don't be so sure about that one. There's some of us who are working towards that destiny in real life. We humans just aren't well suited for long-distance space travel at any reasonable speed, and we're fairly fragile to boot. I for one don't intend for us (or at least our descendants, biological or otherwise) to be stuck on one little planet until Something Bad (TM) happens, whether it be us killing ourselves, aliens doing it for us, or the sun simply dying out. I myself feel that creating something so much better than humanity that it makes obsolete is a truly noble goal. - -- Santiago ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:39:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: re: IN> One Tough Taker At 7:12 PM -0400 11/19/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >>>1) if Marco has a lick of sense, he'll make the Mal promise to fight >>>"fair"... viz, to the corporeal death. I'd give him a "very easy" IQ roll, >>>perhaps with his Paranoid discord _added_ to the target number (when >>>dealing with the Malakim, paranoia is a survival characteristic for >>>demons...) >> >>What Malakite is going to swear an oath to fight "fair" against a demon? > >Well, there's the Mal of Michael in _Final Trumpet_ who has the oath >"Always offer a fair fight to an honorable opponent". I don't just mean "has already done it" but "has just now done it when confronted by a demon." >IMO this would include any demon (other than a Balseraph) that was behaving >honorably, up to the point where it stopped doing so. I'd read it as: "Does this person read as honorable to my resonance? Yes? I fight fair. No? I pound him no matter what." An honorable demon (there are undoubtedly some who qualify) is fine. Is Marco honorable? Dunno. Didn't have time to read his writeup. O:> >>Remember, Malakim can lie, cheat, and steal if they haven't made an oath >>against it -- and few Malakim consider demons _worthy_ of honor. > >IMC Mals don't like to break their given word; it's not *automatically* >dissonant, but it can be, and in any case it's just not something most Mals >are comfortable doing. To a demon? Main book's pretty clear on that -- they don't keep promises to demons that involve suffering evil to live. >Both the main book and the APG fuzz this point, BTW... that is, they don't >tell us whether Mals should get dinged for breaking promises, lying, >cheating, and what have you, other than for breaking their permanent oaths. They don't. The only dissonance is breaking an oath, or Superior's dissonance conditions. >Both books note that Malakim have individual concepts of honor, and then >they move on. But if Cherubim can get dissonance from breaking a promise >(and they can -- APG page 31), then IMO Malakim certainly can, though the >details are highly sensitive to context. Canon ruling here -- Cherubim dissonance condition is for loyalty. They specifically get dissonance for _betrayal_. The APG doesn't change that, and I'll see that it's rewritten more clearly in the future. O:> Malakim, on the other hand, are pretty well depicted as doing whatever the heck they feel like doing to demons, provide their Superior hasn't ordered them otherwise. This is pretty explicit in the main book... >>A Swordie _might_ already have an oath of fighting fair. Or might not. > >Again, I note that Swordies are the "most honorable" even among the Mals. >So if a demon *offers* a fair fight to the corporeal death, and the Mal >accepts... and then the demon sticks to his side of the offer, but is >winning the fair fight... That's about the only way I could see it. And even a Swordie might not have an oath about fair fights, in which case they'd fight honorably, but if, say, they disarm the demon, they're not going to toss the weapon back. >I agree that it's something of a judgment call, but given that this is a >Swordie, I'm inclined to think he's stuck. Teach him not to underestimate >an Impudite again. If he's got the oaths to make it a fair fight... >>>2) if the Mal does go Celestial, it's going to take a while to gather >>>friends and get back... during which time I'd expect Marco to be making >>>some serious preparations. C[...] >>>>[...] he Mal comes back with friends to find that Marco is surrounded >>>by innocent humans who'll fight to protect him, plus those 10-Force Cals >>>mentioned earlier. >> >>Song of Thunder is your _friend_! > >The high-will demons are probably still standing. The humans are mostly on >the ground, but still in the way... So step on them a little. A few bruises can be cured by the Song of Healing. >>And Ethereal Attraction, > >Resisted with Will, so the demons are probably fine. Use it on the humans (or some of them) and get them to move out of the way. (It will at least confuse them, even if they're charmed -- and it lasts for a lot longer than the Charm resonance.) Alternatively, blow a bunch of Essence on it. (Though it's the Vapulan Impudites who excel at that. "Word-bound Malakite wants to pound me? AIE! Use 15 Essence!") >>and Song of >>Motion... (Being surrounded by innocents is nuttin' -- just bamf in, whap >>the little blighter over the head, bamf out again.) > >Bit expensive in Essence, ennit? Nope. 2 Essence. Just do it yourself with your honking big sword, stab the little guy in the back, and (if you're a Malakite) ignore the humans beating on your vessel. If you've got a good nasty vessel, chances are that you'll have diced the annoying Impudite pretty well before >And all your friends have to have it to come in with you. Nah -- they can hang around or get sniper angles. Which is, really, the very _best_ solution. Have a few angels distract the main crowd, while the Precision monster gets on a nearby rooftop. > IMC it's not a terribly common Song, though it's >certainly not unheard of. It's a common Windy Song, at the least, where I come from... (Now, now, can't argue "it's not a threat because IMC" -- you can argue "it's not a threat IMC" but that's sort of cheating.) >And you need a high check digit, otherwise you're "bamfing" in from the >next room, or just down the block. Sure -- find the demon, find he's surrounded, bamf in behind him. Down the block or shorter. >And a demon with 90 Body hits is going to take more than one whack on the >head. Okay, two. And use Numinous Corpus: Barbs. Or maybe Acid. But Barbs is Really Really Scary. ( ) >And, you know, the demons will have Songs too. Song of Thunder right back >atcha, babe... Cals in particular tend to love this one, since their high >Wills make them immune, and there's nothing more fun than inflicting damage >on stunned and helpless victims. Hee. And then there was the Balseraph who tried to Song of Thunder us, and what happened? The Seraph in the side-seat and the Renegade got stunned. The annoying characters didn't. Actually, that's a point -- Kyriotates tend to have high Wills. Patently one needs to keep _them_ around for Demon Posses. "Hey, Guys, this demon just toasted/almost toasted my vessel! Let's go _take_ him!" KyrioChorus: YEAH!) >>Assuming he _can_ gather that number. > >Already established in the character writeup; he's got a bunch of humans >who've been under his influence for months, and can gather a dozen or so in >about an hour. Don't think this is unreasonable for an Impudite with an >established Role who's been living in one place for a year. Okay, mayhap _he_ can. Get that sniper... >>>3) Alternately, Marco goes Celestial too. He's not nearly as tough on >>>this plane as on the Corporeal, but with 3 Celestial Forces, a 9 Will, and >>>Fighting-6, he's no slouch here either. >> >>So he gets to hit once -- unless your angel is a Will-wimp, the angel's >>not going to lose a Force before he ascends to his Heart. > >Not so sure about that. Your normal plain vanilla 9-Force angel has a 6 >Will, which means he has less than an even chance of Ascending (5 chances >in 12). Ah, right, Will+CelForces to go celestial, Will to ascend. Still, if you've got high Perception, you can still dodge or run till it's managed. (Checks stats.) Oh, man, Perception 3? He's got a 6 to even _notice_ you till he goes celestial himself. And once you're in celestial form... Let's see. His celestial move is 3 x 6 yards per second (18), while a dead-average angel has 6 x 6 yps (36). If you have buildings to zip through, that means the maximum range he can see the angel at is 18 yards (two times Per+CelForces). Unless my math is horribly, horribly wrong, an angel who wants to vamoose here can be out of range in 2 seconds? Then he can either ascend and seek buddies, or go corporeal again (preferably in a new vessel, if he has one) and use a mundane telephone to call for a sniper. >>Malakim aren't _stupid_, after all. Losing means letting the enemy live, >>which is dissonant, if they ignore a way where they can stave off losing. > >True. OTOH a novice Mal may have to get dinged a few times before this >particular lesson is well learned. Oh, sure. Throw in _novice_ celestials, and there's no end to the stupidity they can come up with! (Throw in novice _PC_ celestials, and that goes double!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:42:21 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Dissonance for Stoners At 1:43 AM -0400 11/20/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >My impression is that David's people can act once the attack is underway, >but it must already have begun... that is, the knife has been drawn, the >finger is starting to tighten on the trigger, the first syllable of a >hostile Song has been sung, what have you. Pre-emptive strikes are >dissonant, though. I'd say the knife needs to be drawn and in mid-swing. A knife held defensively isn't an _attack_ -- it's a threat of attack if someone else moves first. (Stand-off! Stand-off!) Using a demonic resonance, if you figure out that's what it is, counts though. O:> Balseraph: "You don't want to hurt me!" Stonie: "Wrong!" - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:55:40 -0700 From: EDG Subject: IN> IN Heresy Survey Ends Okay, folks, I'm ending the survey; I haven't received anything in several days, and I think I have a representative vote. Thanks for voting! - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:28:19 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Malakim and demonic honor (was One Tough Taker) >>Well, there's the Mal of Michael in _Final Trumpet_ who has the oath >>"Always offer a fair fight to an honorable opponent". >>IMO this would include any demon (other than a Balseraph) that was behaving >>honorably, up to the point where it stopped doing so. > >I'd read it as: "Does this person read as honorable to my resonance? Yes? >I fight fair. No? I pound him no matter what." An honorable demon (there >are undoubtedly some who qualify) is fine. Is Marco honorable? Dunno. Mm. He's a fairly typical Impudite of factions. Nasty, selfish, arrogant, paranoid and deceitful. OTOH I'd say he *would* have some twisted concept of honor, probably of the "fair fight" variety... the kind that you'd expect an arrogant bruiser character to have. Let's say for argument that he does... a duelist's code of honor, viz., if you agree to rules for a fight beforehand, you stick with them even if you're losing. Would this resonate as honorable to a Mal? IMC it'd depend on the check digit, and the Mal. "You rolled a 6. He's nasty, selfish, arrogant, paranoid and deceitful. On the other hand, he'll fight fair if you do. What do you do?" I think a typical Mal would say, "So, he has some sense of honor, however twisted. Alas, his wickedness far outweighs it. I will seek to destroy him by any means, fair or foul." BUT -- I do think it's possible that _some_ Mals might say "How can I be less honorable than a demon? I will use deceit and treachery against him unless he agrees to fight me fairly and openly. But if he does, I will bind myself to fight in the same way." And I could see the "most honorable" Sword-Mals being well represented in this latter group. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:38:12 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Malakim and Dissonance (was One Tough Taker) >>IMC Mals don't like to break their given word; it's not *automatically* >>dissonant, but it can be, and in any case it's just not something most Mals >>are comfortable doing. > >To a demon? Main book's pretty clear on that -- they don't keep promises >to demons that involve suffering evil to live. Main book's clear on _that_ point, but not on the more general question of word-breaking and treachery. IMO this is pretty similar to the Mercurian dissonance of violence against humans. A Merc can do a lot of things to a human -- say, things that make the human uncomfortable but aren't violent -- without getting dissonance. But he won't *like* it. Imagine, frex, a Mal who is friends (as much as a Mal can be friends) with a Cherub. The Cherub *trusts* the honorable Mal... so much so that, when the Cherub is called to Heaven for an urgent errand, she asks the Mal to take over watching her human ward. The Mal agrees, saying "I promise that I'll watch over your charge, and keep her as safe as I possibly can." But Malakim aren't really cut out for the kind of intense, loving attention that is the Cherubic norm; after a little while the Mal's attention wanders, and he takes a few hours off to hunt evil, figuring that the risk is minimal. Whoops, demons have been waiting for just this opportunity; they break in whil the Mal is gone, torture and kill the human, then disappear back down to Hell, laughing madly all the while. Now, what happens to the Mal? Aside from losing his friendship with the heartbroken Cherub, that is. The rules say this wouldn't cause dissonance, and I'm inclined to agree. OTOH, "Gosh, I feel just awful" doesn't seem nearly strong enough. It seems to me that this Mal has violated his inner nature in a fairly significant fashion. (This actually happened IMC. Tell you how I handled it, but first I'd like to hear how you would have). >>Both the main book and the APG fuzz this point, BTW... that is, they don't >>tell us whether Mals should get dinged for breaking promises, lying, >>cheating, and what have you, other than for breaking their permanent oaths. > >They don't. The only dissonance is breaking an oath, or Superior's >dissonance conditions. Eh, waitasec. It's canon that Mals have codes of honor, "a framework of integrity more sacred to them even than their own lives". Now, are you telling us that the ONLY honor a Mal has is in his oaths? Because that would lead to the conclusion that Mals with more oaths are more honorable. And that way madness lies. I view the oaths as the core of a Mal's honor-code, showing the things that are most important to him... but I don't see them as completely exclusive of all other forms of honor. A Mal who gets in the habit of lying and betraying demons can easily slide into the same behavior towards humans and then fellow angels... and that's *gotta* be stopped somehow, otherwise the idea of "angels of honor" becomes a complete mockery. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:54:43 -0800 (PST) From: The Alien Subject: IN> Judgement dissonance An idea I just had...this isn't meant to restart the Dominic flamewar. It's just another idea. It's not canon and I believe it's COMPLETELY incompatible with canon. So don't Judge it (haha) on that basis. You notice that some of Dominic's angels have their Choir dissoanance muffled to some degree. In pretty major ways in some cases. The end justifies the means? Seems awfully unanglic ... for a Seraph. So here is the idea: Dominic takes the dissonance of his Servitors on himself in such situations. Of course, it's painful. And he would probably Fall rather quickly or use vast amounts of essence...if he wasn't a Malakite. Imagine the reason why Dominic wears the Big Cloak is to conceal the fact that, rather than having Fallen, he has become a Malakite. Maybe God made an exception for him. Perhaps it happened when he became a Superior. I don't know the timeline on the cloak. Of course, we wouldn't want to unduly alarm the inhabitants of Heaven by making them think Judgement is somehow lessened by a lack of Truth. So we just won't tell anyone. After all, a little deception is acceptable now that one is no longer a Seraph... This gives all kinds of opportunity for "What's going on with Dominic?" questions, while still leaving the answer "He is on our side." ultimately. What do you think? Sean ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1427 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.