From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Nov 25 13:52:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA31884 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:52:22 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA30429 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:28:59 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:28:59 -0600 Message-Id: <199911251728.LAA30429@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1429 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1429 In this digest: Re: IN> Beating up Marco (was One Tough Taker) IN> Business Opportunity Re: IN> Beating up Marco (was One Tough Taker) Re: IN> Beating up Marco (was One Tough Taker) IN> Magog and the Millennium Re: IN> Magog and the Millennium Re: IN> Magog and the Millennium Re: IN> Beating up Marco (was One Tough Taker) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:42:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Beating up Marco (was One Tough Taker) (Hmmm... This is getting gory. We should probably take it off-list RSN.) At 8:28 PM -0400 11/22/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >How to take out that tough Taker. Marco's detailed stats are in the Digest at >http://www.sjgames.com/ftp/sjgames/in-nomine/digests/1999/11/1-1422.txt >-- under the post "One Tough Taker". >>>>Song of Thunder is your _friend_! [...] >Well, the Mercurian in the party just fell to the ground screaming. As did >the Servants of Flowers (not that they were much use in a fight anyhow). >And the Flamer is looking a little shaky -- isn't it kinda cruel to let >those innocent humans suffer...? Oh, woo, there's actually a nasty thing... You're right, he is tough. But even if he surrounds himself with humans and Calabim... Seraphim of Flowers and the Corporeal Song of Shields (and enough vessel levels to have decent hits so the Calabim can't take them out quickly via resonance), then Precision-monster snipers to take down the demons from out of range... No, no, that's hardly going to happen the _first_ time. But somewhere around the third or fifth... (Or, at least, the snipers. I don't know about _your_ PCs, but having a "unbeatable" NPC sneering at them would drive the ones I know about to the heights of Rube Goldberg Deathtraps.) >>>>And Ethereal Attraction, [...] >>Use it on the humans (or some of them) and get them to move out of the way. >>(It will at least confuse them, even if they're charmed -- and it lasts >>for a lot longer than the Charm resonance.) > >Sure. But it's not a cure-all in this situation. Nah -- he _is_ tough enough that there's probably no one cure-all. Just a lot of little attrition things which could discommode him. >[Celestial Song of Motion] > >>Just do it yourself with your honking big sword, stab >>the little guy in the back, and (if you're a Malakite) ignore the humans >>beating on your vessel. If you've got a good nasty vessel, chances are >>that you'll have diced the annoying Impudite pretty well before > >The annoying Impudite has 90 body hits! Even a REALLY big sword is going >to take more than one swipe to do much harm... Okay, lemme work this out... Figure that the angel has Precision 10, equal to Marco's Str. Give him Ranged Weapon/6 (Holy Pistol) (parallel Marco's Fighting/6). Song of Motion (Celestial/4) will probably be sufficient, though /5 would be better. Now, Holy Pistol/2, with Acc +1. So: 10 + 6 + 1 = 17, or autosuccess and a CD+5. Minimum CD of 6, max of 11. CD is multiplied by level of Holy Pistol (2), so minimum damage of 12, max of 22. Not shabby, though true, one wouldn't manage to kill him instantly, or, alas, stun him. Sword option... Strength 10, Large Weapon/6 (Sword). Make it a Long Sword, with +4 Power. 10+6+4=20, or auto and CD+8, min 9, max 14. Not so good, though if you can add another +5 for Blade Blessing, you get min of 14 and max of 19. Now, the _really_ nasty options... Strength 10, Fighting/6. NC: Barbs (Liber Canticorum, p. 44; Acc=skill level, Power is half that (round up). Be vicious (Barbs rewards that!) and take it at 5. You'll want either a NC Tail or Tongue, or the Celestial Song of Motion so you can appear with your (barbed) back to Marco. 10+6+5+3. (Accuracy adds to the target number; the target number has been boosted above 12, so it adds to the check digit!) 24, or a CD+12. Min CD of 13, max of 18. If it were Acid, you'd get 1-6 chances with a 10+6+5+5=26, for CD+14: min 15 and max 20. Actually, if you have Acid or Barbs at a decent level, the whole thing might never go to the "surrounded by the wall of humans" stuff. He's getting 10+6+3+1=20, or CD+8... Match him up against a comparable angel with the same combat stats and vessel hits, but Acid/4 or Acid/5 instead of Claws/3, and well... Even if he gets up his Corporeal Form, he's only getting Protection 3 plus however much Essence he spent on boosting his Protection (you can't boost _both_ Protection _and_ skill with a Song with extra Essence; it's one or the other. If he's boostng to a 9 target, that's 4 Essence, of which 1 is going to the Song to boost Protection). So, figure he's spent 5 Essence (he's an Impudite, he can do that, sure) for Protection 4... Damage from Acid goes down to 9-16 (on the second shot, if we're figuring the angel gets first shot), or, at worst if he dodges really well, 3-10. Meanwhile, if we give our angel Corporeal Form as well (which would make sense for a bruiser -- the Stonie Cherub I saw recently went for it, and he was a 10 Strength guy too. With a sledgehammer...), and have him use it for the same Protection (figure he blows Essence too, sure), Marco's doing 9-14, which goes down to 5-9, which goes to 0-3 with a max Dodge. I think this goes to show that Claws are impressive, but serious brawlers take Acid/6 (so they can re-perform it instantly as well, when it runs out). Claws/6 is also good if you're already high Str and maxed out on Fighting -- you lose the +1 Acc, but gain +3 Power, for a total of +6. The other option is, of course, to find a good vantage point, using Ethereal Form, be a Precision Monster, and have a Holy Sniper Rifle at an ungodly level. Or be an Ofanite Precision Monster and have a SUV! O;> (Well, it was a van. And the Balseraph dodged.) >>Nah -- they can hang around or get sniper angles. >In an ethnically homogenous neighborhood where strangers are quickly >noticed, and where almost everyone likes and admires the Impudite. This >could get interesting... Yeah, but by the time the cops show up, the sniper's ascended. Just don't leave prints. O:> (It all depends on if the natives are likely to come out with frying pans, or if they'll hide indoors and call the cops instead.) >Well, actually, I agree with you. Keep in mind that I originally designed >Marco for two reasons: > >1) To invite some comments on whether he was a balanced, interesting, and >Canonical character (since I'm an isolated IN GM, having no contact with >other GMs except through this mailing list); and, Oh, yeah, he looks reasonable that way. >2) To meet the challenge of building a kick-butt "bruiser Impudite". >Marco is a hand-to-hand combat monster. If PCs fight him straight up, on >his terms, he can take any two average angels. Dead average, yes, but he's not dead average, and not all PCs are either. He's a _challenge_, certs. But not to an equal combat-monster. >OTOH, *smart* angels won't fight on his terms; they'll stand off at a >distance, throw Songs at him, use long-range weapons and hit-and-run >tactics. Hey, he's just one 9-Force demon; he's not going to withstand a >determined attack from a clever party. Gods, I know. Angels are so nasty. They attack in packs. Whatever you do, don't go up against a Kyriotate with Will 12 and Barbs at something ungodly, in celestial combat. Technically, Barbs is only on the "back" -- but how the _heck_ does a Kyrio _have_ a back in celestial combat?? >But my point is, he could give a foolish or incautious party a really bad >time... especially if they think, "oh, Impudite, easy out. I hit him with >my flaming sword." Hmmmm.... An overconfident party, maybe. Foolish? Depends on the brand of foolish. (I seem to remember a Kyrio of Lightning possessing a cable, to wrap around the demon while his Ofanite buddy with Generator played long-range ZAP. While the Kyrio spat Acid from the end of the cable. (This was, I believe, before it became a general ruling that you had to have a _mouth_ to use Acid...)) I would not call that group "sensible" by any stretch of the imagination. >>> IMC it's not a terribly common Song, though it's >>>certainly not unheard of. >> >>It's a common Windy Song, at the least, where I come from... (Now, now, >>can't argue "it's not a threat because IMC" -- you can argue "it's not >>a threat IMC" but that's sort of cheating.) > >No, no. I was just trying to get a handle on how common it is in *other* >peoples' campaigns. In ours, pretty common. It's _really_ useful. >Again, note that a well-dug-in Impudite -- especially one with the Paranoid >Discord -- is going to have the equivalent of a neighborhood watch working >for him. "Hey man, I just saw some guy --" "Tell Marco. He always wants >to know about anything strange in the 'hood". Ethereal Song of Form? O:> (Another Song that's Really Useful.) >In a hand-to-hand battle, Marco can kick the snot out of your typical >9-Force angel... it is, after all, what he was designed for. Heck, most of my non-combat characters would have broken and run when he didn't go down after the first shot or two. It's the combat dudes you want to watch out for. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:03:42 +0000 From: Hassan Hazime Subject: IN> Business Opportunity This is a Multipart MIME message. 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- --XXCEEFCECE-002BCEEFXX-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:19:07 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Beating up Marco (was One Tough Taker) >(Hmmm... This is getting gory. We should probably take it off-list RSN.) Aww, just one more round... Well, just the high points then. >Oh, woo, there's actually a nasty thing... You're right, he is tough. Thankew. >(Or, at least, the snipers. I don't know about _your_ PCs, but having >a "unbeatable" NPC sneering at them would drive the ones I know about to >the heights of Rube Goldberg Deathtraps.) Well, Marco's not a *pure* combat monster. He has a job to do, after all. After the second time that angels show up in force, he's going to pull out; his Role is obviously compromised. I'd expect him to descend, perhaps leaving behind some booby trap, and hope that having sent an angel or two into Trauma would make up for having to abandon his post. Which, IMC, it would... his was a training position, after all. >Nah -- he _is_ tough enough that there's probably no one cure-all. Just a >lot of little attrition things which could discommode him. 'zactly what I was trying for, glad to hear it... [snip detailed combat stuff -- I enjoy this too, but you're right, it's getting gory] I think the conclusion we've reached is that Marco is very tough, tough enough to deal with two or even three ordinary angels, but that a pure-combat angel could probably take him without much difficulty. And I'm cool with that. Marco's a combat monster, but he's not a pure combat monster... I don't think an Impudite ought to be, really. He's got other functions, like spreading misery and evil and dissent (see my little "Re-up" post for details)... in fact, he's useful for a lot of things. A pure combat monster would have vessel-6, STR 12, the Song of Thunder, and some Numinous Corpus at 5 or 6. OTOH, he'd be almost useless for anything *but* combat, whereas Marco can be fit into a whole bunch of different situations. Heck, I made a point of setting him up in a situation where he's _not_ getting involved in combat regularly -- his Strength and Fighting skill are appropriate to his Role, after all... >Yeah, but by the time the cops show up, the sniper's ascended. Just >don't leave prints. O:> Heh. >>Well, actually, I agree with you. Keep in mind that I originally designed >>Marco for two reasons: >> >>1) To invite some comments on whether he was a balanced, interesting, and >>Canonical character (since I'm an isolated IN GM, having no contact with >>other GMs except through this mailing list); and, > >Oh, yeah, he looks reasonable that way. Thankew. Appreciate it. >>2) To meet the challenge of building a kick-butt "bruiser Impudite". > > > >>Marco is a hand-to-hand combat monster. If PCs fight him straight up, on >>his terms, he can take any two average angels. > >Dead average, yes, but he's not dead average, and not all PCs are >either. He's a _challenge_, certs. But not to an equal combat-monster. Well, my idea was that any opponent who can do *one* thing well is usually pretty easy to whip... but an opponent who can do two things well is more than twice as tough. Marco can fight, and he's also dug into that neighborhood like a tick on a dog's belly. He can get humans to fight beside him, run errands for him, and warn him about danger. PCs prepared to fight a combat monster can be surprised by indirect attacks and harassment from Marco's humans; PCs prepared to deal with a sneaky but wimpy Impudite can be surprised when he throws one of them through a wall. But as you say, a *real* combat monster could take him out without working too hard. A Seraph of War with 144 Body Hits, say... "I dodge his attack." "No, you don't." >>OTOH, *smart* angels won't fight on his terms; they'll stand off at a >>distance, throw Songs at him, use long-range weapons and hit-and-run >>tactics. Hey, he's just one 9-Force demon; he's not going to withstand a >>determined attack from a clever party. > >Gods, I know. Angels are so nasty. They attack in packs. Yeah, that's the big angelic advantage. No, their resonances and attunements may not be as obviously handy offensively... but they _work together_, usually really well, whereas demons almost always have to have one eye cocked to the rear. >>Again, note that a well-dug-in Impudite -- especially one with the Paranoid >>Discord -- is going to have the equivalent of a neighborhood watch working >>for him. "Hey man, I just saw some guy --" "Tell Marco. He always wants >>to know about anything strange in the 'hood". > >Ethereal Song of Form? O:> (Another Song that's Really Useful.) Can't go burning it up on every kid on a skateboard who rolls by. But, yeah, that one is handy if you think you might cross paths with an Impudite. "Charm? I got yer charm, right here." >(I seem to remember a Kyrio of Lightning possessing a cable, to >wrap around the demon while his Ofanite buddy with Generator played >long-range ZAP. While the Kyrio spat Acid from the end of the cable. Those are the moments that make you love this game, yeah... Doug M. . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:02:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Beating up Marco (was One Tough Taker) At 6:19 PM -0400 11/23/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >Well, just the high points then. >>Oh, woo, there's actually a nasty thing... You're right, he is tough. >Thankew. A challenge! You gave me a challenge. All your fault. O:> >Well, Marco's not a *pure* combat monster. He has a job to do, after all. >After the second time that angels show up in force, he's going to pull out; [...] Ahhhhhhh. Sensible. >I think the conclusion we've reached is that Marco is very tough, tough >enough to deal with two or even three ordinary angels, but that a >pure-combat angel could probably take him without much difficulty. Or at least it would be an even match. (Or a less-even match with only a few tweaks. Claws/6. My new mantra.) >A pure combat monster would have vessel-6, STR 12, the Song of Thunder, and >some Numinous Corpus at 5 or 6. OTOH, he'd be almost useless for anything >*but* combat, whereas Marco can be fit into a whole bunch of different >situations. What, you daring me to come up with a character who's an evil combat monster _and_ useful for something else? > Heck, I made a point of setting him up in a situation where >he's _not_ getting involved in combat regularly -- his Strength and >Fighting skill are appropriate to his Role, after all... Eeeeeeeeeg.... Dunno about that -- I think they're overkill, just for the Role. Strength 7 would probably do him just fine if all he had to worry about are humans. >Well, my idea was that any opponent who can do *one* thing well is usually >pretty easy to whip... but an opponent who can do two things well is more >than twice as tough. Marco can fight, and he's also dug into that >neighborhood like a tick on a dog's belly. He can get humans to fight >beside him, run errands for him, and warn him about danger. One Kyrio of Destiny could ruin his whole day, you know... O:> That's probably his _major_ vulnerability. If a Kyriotate of Destiny takes over enough of "his" people to get a clue, then it can slip away quietly and gather up a team (or at least plan with the angels it knows of) which will be able to strike at his weaknesses. >But as you say, a *real* combat monster could take him out without working >too hard. A Seraph of War with 144 Body Hits, say... "I dodge his >attack." "No, you don't." AJ! (A Seraph of War from the Liber Servitorum. Mind, half the time his so-called 'allies' are hoping he'll bite the big one... He's only a 9-Forcer, but with Ofanite of War and Seraph of War attunements, he's probably nasty to tangle with.) >>Gods, I know. Angels are so nasty. They attack in packs. > >Yeah, that's the big angelic advantage. No, their resonances and >attunements may not be as obviously handy offensively... but they _work >together_, usually really well, whereas demons almost always have to have >one eye cocked to the rear. And since there are few penalties (at least in celetial combat) for ganging up several angels on one demon... Marco might not fare so well against two medium-combat oriented angels, since they'd both be after him but he'd have to split his attacks. >>Ethereal Song of Form? O:> (Another Song that's Really Useful.) > >Can't go burning it up on every kid on a skateboard who rolls by. But, >yeah, that one is handy if you think you might cross paths with an >Impudite. "Charm? I got yer charm, right here." Hm? Nonononono, you're thinking of Ethereal Shields. Ethereal Form is the Shadowform trick, where you ghost around for several minutes. Since his Perception is the pits, you can probably follow him around till the Song wears off. (Mmmm, dark alleys! Mmmm, trying to hit someone you can't see!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:39:41 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Magog and the Millennium In case anyone has recently emerged from stasis, the Egyptian authorities are planning elaborate ceremonies for the Millennium on 31st Dec this year. The culmination of which will be a golden capstone set on top of the Great Pyramid at the stoke of midnight... And what will the live tv broadcasts reveal when the robot camera peers behind the secret door inside the pyramid itself? A scroll? "Dear Descendants, Don't go meddling with what lies beneath the Sphinx! Yours -- Cheops" It could make for some campaign fun at least! :) - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:58:14 EST From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Magog and the Millennium I had something like this happen IMC, some stupid Fox special was used as the cover for the Diabolicals to try and get Magog out. Well he comes pouring out, and its captured on live TV (the cameras were supposed to cut out but didn't). What happened was Magog was still in touch wtih the world through his Word, but didn't use the full possibilities of the cracks in his Prison to avoid having the Host fix it up. He doesn't like subtle war so he showed his reemergence to the cameras. Of course since it was Fox no one believed it, and he got one heck of a yelling at by the Game. Anyway its always fun to have Renegade Princes with utterly twisted Words running around, especially when their really pissed about being couped up for a long time. Timothy, Angel of Rambling ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:38:08 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Magog and the Millennium At 11:58 AM 11/24/99 EST, you wrote: > Of course since it was Fox no one believed it, and he got one heck of >a yelling at by the Game. new fox special sponsored by Nybbas "When Angels Attack" Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:27:26 -0500 (EST) From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Beating up Marco (was One Tough Taker) > >Well, Marco's not a *pure* combat monster. He has a job to do, after all. > >After the second time that angels show up in force, he's going to pull out; > [...] > > Ahhhhhhh. Sensible. I hate highly specialized characters. Won't play 'em, don't like my players playing 'em, only occasionally have 'em appear even as NPCs. (yeah, yeah, I'll allow my players to play the super-combat-monster or the more-Songs-than-Paul-Simon character. I won't even beat up on them... I don't usually have to, actually. But it's an exercise in restraint on my part. Not sure if this is Dissonant in a GM or not...) > >A pure combat monster would have vessel-6, STR 12, the Song of Thunder, and > >some Numinous Corpus at 5 or 6. OTOH, he'd be almost useless for anything > >*but* combat, whereas Marco can be fit into a whole bunch of different > >situations. > > What, you daring me to come up with a character who's an evil combat > monster _and_ useful for something else? [pause] Well... I *know* you're very busy... [pause] And I'd sure hate to see you taking time away from line editing or other vital tasks. Still... mmm... it *would* be interesting to see what an Archangel would come up with.. > > Heck, I made a point of setting him up in a situation where > >he's _not_ getting involved in combat regularly -- his Strength and > >Fighting skill are appropriate to his Role, after all... > > Eeeeeeeeeg.... Dunno about that -- I think they're overkill, just > for the Role. Strength 7 would probably do him just fine if all > he had to worry about are humans. Well, see the little "re-up" fic. Once in a while it's nice to just throw a human across the room; Charm is well and good, but as Machiavelli said, fear is _even better_... > >Well, my idea was that any opponent who can do *one* thing well is usually > >pretty easy to whip... but an opponent who can do two things well is more > >than twice as tough. Marco can fight, and he's also dug into that > >neighborhood like a tick on a dog's belly. He can get humans to fight > >beside him, run errands for him, and warn him about danger. > > One Kyrio of Destiny could ruin his whole day, you know... O:> That's > probably his _major_ vulnerability. If a Kyriotate of Destiny takes over > enough of "his" people to get a clue, then it can slip away quietly and > gather up a team (or at least plan with the angels it knows of) which > will be able to strike at his weaknesses. Yep. Kyrios in general would be annoying for him (or any other Impudite in a similar situation). You're minding your own business, spreading hate and ruining lives, when suddenly a pigeon flies up behind you... > >But as you say, a *real* combat monster could take him out without working > >too hard. A Seraph of War with 144 Body Hits, say... "I dodge his > >attack." "No, you don't." > > AJ! (A Seraph of War from the Liber Servitorum. Mind, half the > time his so-called 'allies' are hoping he'll bite the big one... He's > only a 9-Forcer, but with Ofanite of War and Seraph of War attunements, > he's probably nasty to tangle with.) Department of Odd Coincidences: I just picked up the LS yesterday. Watch for a review here next week. AJ... heh. He's *exactly* the sort of character Marco was designed to deal with. [reviewing AJ's stats] Yep, nasty, but Marco could take him in a fair fight... *and* use his humans to annoy, distract, and embarrass him. Which might well be a good thing for all concerned. "Ajaxias, you were sent into Trauma by a _what_?" Doug M. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1429 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.