From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Nov 29 22:48:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03249 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:48:26 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id WAA11126 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:44:02 -0600 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:44:02 -0600 Message-Id: <199911300444.WAA11126@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1435 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, November 29 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1435 In this digest: Re: IN> Weird Default. Re: IN> Re: mercurian dissonance. Re: IN> Zen Re: IN> (no subject) Re: IN> Malakim and Dissonance (was One Tough Taker) Re: IN> Weird Default. Re: IN> Shedim question (fwd) RE: IN> Character Generation Question Re: IN> Re: mercurian dissonance. Re: IN> She's like the Wind... RE: IN> She's like the Wind... RE: IN> She's like the Wind... RE: IN> She's like the Wind... IN> Language and Intelligence (was Weird Default) IN> Re: mercurian dissonance IN> Re: mercurian dissonance IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances IN> Mercurian resonance Re: IN> Re: mercurian dissonance RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances IN> The good ol' Humanity attunement. RE: IN> Re: mercurian dissonance RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances Re: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances IN> Uh, hey. Re: IN> Language and Intelligence (was Weird Default) Re: IN> Uh, hey. IN> Children and Angels mating question. Re: IN> Uh, hey. Re: IN> Character Generation Question Re: IN> Children and Angels mating question. IN> Malakim Re: IN> Weird Default. Re: IN> She's like the Wind... Re: IN> Shedim question (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:34:05 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Weird Default. > On the other hand, having angels ignore language barriers is > very traditional in drama and literature. In my own variation, I'd like that -- but I've also seen lots of angels, in the books, assigned languages as skills. I only ask because I'm trying to construct a character proficient in many languages, and if you don't need to spend points on the languages to get them (due to the -4 default and a high, high intelligence), that's 6-10 points of skills you can better use elsewhere. Plus, if you buy Ofanite of Yves' attunement (with the 6-8 points you saved), you get to tack your Celestial forces onto the grand total. Assuming 12 intelligence, 3 Celestial Forces, and a -4 default, that's an 11 in every language. Without ever dropping a skill point into it. *mumble* > Earl Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:49:04 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: mercurian dissonance. At 2:16 PM -0600 11/29/99, jonh smith wrote: >>This particular Shed, therefore, was understandably quite reluctant to >>leave his safe hidey-hole... and I ruled that just shoving the Merc to the >>back of the party wasn't going to inoculate him from Dissonance in this >>case, since he was a member of the party and expected to benefit from their >>violence. The Symphony can't be fooled... > >I'm not convinced that the mercurian should have recived dissonance. I wouldn't have given him any dissonance -- they're not Impudites, they don't have to try to _protect_ human lives. (Do what you will in your own campaign, but that's a case where I'd say canon says the Mercurian might feel sad he hadn't been able to find another way, but not dissonant. Unless he was a Mercurian of Novalis. But that'd apply to any Flowers-Servitor.) (Which is the main reason why I _don't_ ever rule that a Mercurian must advocate peace to the bitter end -- Mercurians are Mercurians and Flowers- angels are Flowers-angels. Their dissonance conditions _should not_ overlap!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:51:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Zen At 9:36 AM -0600 11/29/99, Santiago wrote: > If an angel Falls in the forest and no one is around to hear >the Symphonic disturbance, does it still generate echoes? ;) Nope. Falling creates no Symphonic disturbance. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:51:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> (no subject) At 2:00 PM -0500 11/29/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >XLemorisX@aol.com wrote: >> any info you could send me on Lilith? >A copy of the Rosetti poem "Eden Bower," about Lilith, is posted at: For those who hate Geocities' insistance on cookies, there's also a copy at the INC, IIRC. For In Nomine Lilith material, her expanded writeup is in Fall of the Malakim. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:51:36 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakim and Dissonance (was One Tough Taker) At 11:17 PM -0400 11/28/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >[A Malakite has Screwed Up Bigtime, allowing a Cherub's attuned to be >horribly killed through inattention. He didn't violate any of his oaths, >though, so no Dissonance...] >This involved a player who displayed intermittent Munchkinitis. He showed >it when he ran off to chase evil, and then again when he defiantly declared >that he _wouldn't_ take Dissonance. Munchkinitis like that should be squelched by any means possible, whether by dissonance or social pressure. (Good job there, BTW.) >That character ended up crashing and burning a bit later. We re-equipped >the player with an Ofanite, and everyone was much happier. Ofanim, eek. O:> (Still, they're probably easier to play for those who don't _want_ to think first... It's the Thinking Ofanim who get really scary...) >>Why didn't the Cherub get DANGER warnings in Heaven so he could descend >>and locate his attuned, though? [...] > >Song of Shields, babe. The demon's best friend when he wants to whip up to >Earth, do some serious evil, and duck back Downstairs again in a hurry. Ahhhhhhh! Shweet! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:51:40 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Weird Default. At 10:12 AM -0700 11/29/99, Ben Glickler wrote: >Does the -4 default on Languages really mean you can speak every language at >a -4 default? Technically. Or try to puzzle them out. It's up to the GM to keep this from getting out of hand ("No, you weren't _alive_ when Sanskrit was around! Use the Song of Tongues."), but for most humans (and a lot of characters I see), this is _plenty_ bad enough a default to keep them from trying to speak fluent Chinese (or Chinese at all) if they don't have a level of skill. (Yeah, we could put in rules and guidelines for Every Little Rule, but just watch the main book bloat. Use your judgment (stop at the Celestial Tribunal if you don't have any; they have classes) and send it in as a Murphy if you want. Don't forget Linear A.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:51:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedim question (fwd) At 2:24 PM -0500 11/29/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: [...] >corporeal vessel, there is no Essence cost to leave the host..." Does >that mean it just doesn't cost anything to leave, but you still have to >pay for Celestial form? No, it's free. Noisy as heck, and the only fast way for a Shedite to swap hosts (but see oozing, in the IPG), but free. Kyriotates have to pay if they are manifesting one celestial form _and_ keeping hosts. If a Kyrio leaves all hosts at once, it's free. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:54:33 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Character Generation Question Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> So you can go to Heaven, but you can't hide out there indefinitely >> unless you're _really_ clever about it. >Hiding out in Heaven. Now *there's* an adventure hook. "If we can just get to the upper Groves without attracting the attention of the Michaelites everything will be fine." Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:04:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: mercurian dissonance. At 5:02 PM -0400 11/29/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >>I'm not convinced that the mercurian should have recived dissonance. I have >>always thought that mercurians were able to "stand back and let the malakim >>do their work" when no alternatives exist for dealing with a demonicaly >>possessed human. > >This is a delicate point, but IMC Mercs can get dinged with Dissonance for >causing or participating in violence against humans even if they're not >actually the one holding the club. Against canon. >I think we can all agree that if a Mercurian is in charge of a Malakite, >and he says, "Mal, beat up this human for me," then the Merc will take >dissonance... yes? Not in canon. Now, in both cases, a Mercurian of FLOWERS would have those problems, unless there were No Other Choice (and maybe even then, with humans). But so would any other Servitor of Flowers. Direct harm of humans is a no-no for Mercurians. (Direct - the Mercurian knows that he was responsible, directly. His finger on the button, his hand on the baseball bat, etc.) Not Advocating Peace is a no-no for Flowers. The twain do not meet except around the edges. >IMC this makes sure that Merc PCs will go that extra mile to find a >non-violent solution if one is remotely possible. They shouldn't have to -- that's Flowers-nature, not Mercurian nature, and no way in Hades am I going to conflate the two. O:> >Mercs should really *want* to avoid violence against humans, and should >accept it only as a last resort. But only as part of their personalities, not natures -- just as Seraphim should only stand back and accept a lie at last resort. They don't get dissonant when their buddies lie and they remain silent; why should a Mercurian? Now, IMPUDITES... Impudites _have_ to try to protect the little Essence- sources. _They_ can't just stand back and let the Calabite have his fun (unless they serve Saminga, or Kobal-and-it's-funny). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:06:17 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> She's like the Wind... At 6:18 PM -0400 11/29/99, Douglas Muir wrote: >(Or I think she is, anyhow. Questions, comments, thoughts?) Interesting. My only nit is that it'd be better to just make her a Bright Lilim of Wind. (The APG Expanded resonance is amongst those things that will be Hunted Down and Made to Die the Thousand Deaths! Amen.) You can change her Discord (her Need is pretty silly, really; It's like Merciful for any Seraph of Flowers) to Geases. Since technically Lilith still can hold at least _one_ of her Geases left, and you could _technically_ use this as the one instance where the Geas Discord allows one to get character points. Otherwise, I liked it. Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:17:10 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> She's like the Wind... Small nitpick - if she's has a habit of lifting wallets without the swipe attunement you should probably give her some skill in pick-pocket. I can't actually recall if this one is in the books, but it ought to be if it isn't especially for servants of the Wind or Theft who don't buy Swipe (all three 'm). Well done Janusite though. Trent Ofanite of Doubt >Iola, Mercurian of the Wind > > >2 Corporeal Strength 3 Agility 5 >3 Ethereal Intel 7 Precision 5 >4 Celestial Perception 10 Will 6 > > >Role (none) > >Vessel - 2 Charisma - +3 > >Acrobatics - 1 Climbing - 1 >Detect Lies - 2 Emote - 3 >Dodge - 1 Fast Talk - 2 >Lying - 2 Running - 3 >Seduction - 3 Dancing - 2 > >Songs > >Ethereal Form - 4 Corporeal Healing - 2 >Ethereal Attraction - 3 Celestial Attraction - 2 > > >Discord - Need (movement) - 3 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:41:26 -0700 From: EDG Subject: RE: IN> She's like the Wind... At 06:17 PM 11/29/99 -0600, you wrote: > >Small nitpick - if she's has a habit of lifting wallets without the swipe >attunement you should probably give her some skill in pick-pocket. I can't >actually recall if this one is in the books, but it ought to be if it isn't >especially for servants of the Wind or Theft who don't buy Swipe (all three >'m). Well done Janusite though. She's stealing wallets - not necessarily lifting them from someone's pocket while he's wearing the pants. Who's to say they don't disappear from bedside tables, unworn pants, or store countertops? Now, I /would/ make the Need something like Stealing (or, rather, Redistributing The Wealth). A Need for Motion seems rather redundant on a Windy. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:59:11 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> She's like the Wind... > >She's stealing wallets - not necessarily lifting them from someone's pocket >while he's wearing the pants. Who's to say they don't disappear from >bedside tables, unworn pants, or store countertops? > True, but it would be appropriate don't you think? >Now, I /would/ make the Need something like Stealing (or, rather, >Redistributing The Wealth). A Need for Motion seems rather redundant on a >Windy. Not all windy's are hyperactive (just the Ofanim). The Seraphim are particularly levelheaded and calm as they convince you of the Truth that it would be a good idea to quit your job, abandon your family, and by immersing yourself in the trucker community teach people how to live a selfless life by example. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:55:31 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Language and Intelligence (was Weird Default) The -4 language default ties into a problem with high Intelligence that can be solved by looking at high Intelligence as a function of age/experience and very broad knowledge, rather than IQ per se. (Read Neil Gaiman's description of the angel Azariphale in "Good Omens," where he points out that Azariphale wasn't necessarily *smarter* than every human being on Earth, but he had an intellect capable of absorbing and processing *everything* he'd ever learned in his immortal life.) So think of Intelligence as a measure of how much *stuff* is in a being's head, and their ability to retrieve it and use it as needed. Sure, a celestial with a 12 Intelligence has a default of 8 with every human language. Either the celestial has been around long enough that he's *heard* just about every human language, or his Superior jammed that data into his head. Nonetheless, make him roll a d666 *every* *single* *time* he tries to communicate or comprehend something in a language which he knows only by default. This will be aggravating enough (and lead to enough miscommunications) that someone who really wants to function in a language will buy at least a point of fluency. (I have more detailed language rules for In Nomine, which I may get around to posting eventually. Being that my undergraduate degree was linguistics, it's something of a hobby horse of mine.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:57:43 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Re: mercurian dissonance >>>I think we can all agree that if a Mercurian is in charge of a Malakite, and he says, "Mal, beat up this human for me," then the Merc will take dissonance... yes?<<< No. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:04:26 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Re: mercurian dissonance >>>Gotta try diplomacy first. And really _try_ it; you can't just say, "Do what I tell you, 'cause I'm an angel. No? Okay, violence time."<<< This is your own extrapolation, which is fine if you want Mercurians to be near-pacifists, or at least extremely anti-violence in your campaign. But canonically, this isn't the case, because Mercurians are not all Servitors of Flowers. Diplomats are NOT pacifists, or opposed to using violence to achieve their aims. They just don't engage in violence themselves. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:06:52 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances >>>Shrug. It's in there now. It's canon. We GMs have to deal with it. It's not really an option to pick one thing out of the book and say, "Oh, they didn't really mean _that_."<<< Uh, yes...it is. We GMs are free to ignore ANYTHING we don't like. And in fact are encouraged to do so. I would especially encourage GMs to ignore canon that everyone from the Line Editor to the person who through an ironic quirk of fate ended up *writing* expanded Choir resonances he didn't like (yes, that would be me, re: the Cherub tricks) says is broken and should be revised in the 2nd edition. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:10:24 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Mercurian resonance >>>And, FWIW, let me say that I *like* the expanded resonance for Mercs, and wouldn't see it grossly changed. Yeah, it makes them more powerful. They were getting a little wussy; they needed an upgrade. Having a neat, flexible resonance *and* tricky dissonance conditions makes for interesting characters IMO. YMMV.<<< Say what? "Wussy"? In the sense that they can't use their resonance to squish someone, I guess so. But as far as being neat and flexible, a Mercurian who makes frequent use of his resonance can gather data on everyone in sight and pretty quickly know everything about everyone. If you don't make a house rule to prevent it, they can even be instant celestial detectors and Role-ruiners. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:21:13 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Re: mercurian dissonance >>>>I think we can all agree that if a Mercurian is in charge of a >>>>Malakite, and he says, "Mal, beat up this human for me," then the Merc >>>>will take dissonance... yes?<<< > >No. ?! I don't even see this as being outside canon. More of an obvious gloss on canon. Can Cherubs order someone else to harm their attuned? Can a Seraph order someone else to lie for them? Can a Mal order someone else to break one of his oaths? - -- I don't mean *allow* someone else to do it; I agree that's much fuzzier. I'm talking "order" here. Let's say a Merc orders a Servant (who *must* obey unless he can beat a Will roll), or a Mal of Laurence bound to follow orders from him, to kill a human. No dissonance? This seems to me to be _mis_reading canon. Way too narrowly. What am I missing here? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:32:32 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances David wrote: > Uh, yes...it is. We GMs are free to ignore ANYTHING we don't like. And > in fact are encouraged to do so. I would especially encourage GMs to > ignore canon that everyone from the Line Editor to the person who > through an ironic quirk of fate ended up *writing* expanded Choir > resonances he didn't like (yes, that would be me, re: the Cherub tricks) > says is broken and should be revised in the 2nd edition. On the subject of expanded resonances for angels, could we have a bit of a voice of opinion from people around the list about what they think would make a good expanded resonance for each Choir? I'm not happy with quite a few of the angelic expanded resonances, but I'm also suffering from a lack of inspiration as to what good alternatives are. Any suggestions would be happily read. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:35:40 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: IN> The good ol' Humanity attunement. Okay, I'm thinking about the Humanity attunement again, and I know that it's supposed to be subtle and powerful (heck, it can even fool the Resonance of the Malakim), but I'm undecided as to whether it's effective against Impudites of Technology. The glasses they wear can tell them how much Essence a thing has. Now for demons using the Humanity attunement, can this 'fuzz' the glasses, causing them to register as 5 or 6 Essence if they are actually greater, or do the glasses serve as a great Game-detector? (That person over there causes no disturbance *and* they have 12 Essence? Guess the Game's in town). Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:38:43 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Re: mercurian dissonance Douglas wrote: > This seems to me to be _mis_reading canon. Way too narrowly. What am I > missing here? You're missing that line in the main rulebook that says (paraphrasing) "Even Mercurians know when to step aside and wave in the sharp knives of the Malakim." In effect, they *can* say "I can't get anywhere here, your turn" to a Malakite, even knowing full-well what a Malakite will do. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:52:39 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances >On the subject of expanded resonances for angels, could we have a bit of a >voice of opinion from people around the list about what they think would >make a good expanded resonance for each Choir? I'm not happy with quite a >few of the angelic expanded resonances, but I'm also suffering from a lack >of inspiration as to what good alternatives are. > >Any suggestions would be happily read. I could never figure out why we need expanded resonances anyway. Toss 'm for more fluff. That's what I like in a source book. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:08:00 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Using Canon, Especially Bad Expanded Choir Resonances >>>>Shrug. It's in there now. It's canon. We GMs have to deal with it. >>>>It's not really an option to pick one thing out of the book and say, >>>>"Oh, they didn't really mean _that_."<<< > > >Uh, yes...it is. We GMs are free to ignore ANYTHING we don't like. Yeah, except that the players get all hissy when they think you're picking stuff out because YOU don't like it (as opposed to "house rules", which hardly anyone minds... go figure). And, as noted, I'm not sure that one is as "broken" as everyone seems to think. >Say what? "Wussy"? In the sense that they can't use their resonance to >squish someone, I guess so. No, no. Most angels have nonviolent resonances. But the Merc resonance, without the APG expansion, was no better than the Elohite or Malakite resonances, and maybe not quite as good. After all, "What is he feeling, and why?" and "Is he a good guy or a bad guy?" are often handier than "How do people see him?". And their dissonance conditions are tougher than the Elohim's. Not as tough as the Mals, no, but then they don't get anywhere near the fear and respect that the Malakim do. Nor do they have particularly nifty attunements to compensate... some decent ones (Dominic, Michael), but several lame ones (Jordi, Janus). None that make the average player say, "Whoa! I wanna play _that_!" So, if you're a minimaxer (and most players have at least a streak of this), you'll think, why should I play an angel that 1) has a so-so resonance, 2) has tough dissonance conditions, and 3) doesn't get all that much respect from other Celestials? They needed some beefing up. Maybe not as much as the APG gave them, okay. But some. >But as far as being neat and flexible, a >Mercurian who makes frequent use of his resonance can gather data on >everyone in sight and pretty quickly know everything about everyone. If >you don't make a house rule to prevent it, they can even be instant >celestial detectors and Role-ruiners. Naw. 1) The APG tables use a -2 or -4 on the roll. This means the Merc has to bulk his Perception up to 9 or higher to have a decent shot at using them. This, in turn, means that either he has to take a fourth Celestial Force -- weakening him in Ethereal or Corporeal -- or be a total Will-Wimp. 2) He's stuck with the check digit that he has rolled. Even on the APG tables, a 1 or a 2 isn't going to tell him much. 3) The APG isn't clear on this point, but I force my Merc PCs to choose *one* table for their resonance roll. Perhaps this is a "house rule"; I suppose so. But I make them tell me if they're going after "relationships", "desires", or "trust". And then they can't roll again on a different table for (check digit x hours). BTW, IMO Mals are just as bad when it comes to celestial detection. Yeah, they only automatically detect Balseraphs, and that on a 6. But when you use your resonance on the nice little old lady, roll a measly 2, and find that the most noble thing she has done this week (according to her own standards) was to pull a reliever's wings off and feed them to a gremlin instead of eating them herself... good chance you've found yourself a demon. Elohites can do this too. "What's the old lady feeling now?" (makes resonance roll, with a check digit of 4) "Umm... top two emotions... well, hatred mixed with a dark, unholy glee." "Really? Hey, don't I get her motivations, too?" "Umm..." "Guys! Over here! I found the demon!" Having said that, I have to agree on one point: the higher levels of the APG tables are potentially unbalancing. Instantly knowing deepest desires, or how to gain a person's trust permanently, is pretty powerful. Too powerful? Not sure about that -- it's consistent with what Mercs _are_, after all. But, yes,these powers should at least come at a higher price than staring at someone and concentrating for a moment. And if you allow a Merc to use all three tables freely -- walk up to someone and make three rolls, bang bang bang, for relationships *and* needs *and* trust... okay, yeah, that would be unbalancing. So, my $0.02 worth would be... leave the tables, but make them a little less powerful, and perhaps give some penalties for using them. Maybe say that any failed roll shuts down your resonance for 6-check digit hours. Or some such. BTW, David, how did you end up editing rules you opposed? Now I'm curious... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:21:11 -0500 From: Dan Weaver Subject: IN> Uh, hey. I got the main In Nomine book today and eagerly read through it and so now I want to play this really nifty game. Unfortunately I'm the only person I know who likes RPGs. From reading through pretty much the entire contents of the IN Collection and some online campaigns like Holy War and Fiat Justitium Ruat Something-Or-Other I know there's a lot of online IN play. Are there any online games that accept new characters played by new players, or are they all closed off? Oh yeah, one (well, two) other things. I decided I liked a Malakim of Stone best as a character, mostly for the solidarity, love & unity street-punk thing thing they have going. So... a) is it a complete rip-off to have a punk Malakim of Stone? b) are Malakim supposed to be totally bereft of humor and the ability to have a good time when not in the presence of evil, or can they enjoy themselves when they aren't hip-deep in demon guts? I badly want to have the following conversation before I mash something. Demon: Who ARE you? Me: I'm BATMAN! Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:38:56 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Language and Intelligence (was Weird Default) In a message dated 11/29/99 6:03:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: > So think of Intelligence as a measure of how much *stuff* is in a > being's head, and their ability to retrieve it and use it as needed. > Sure, a celestial with a 12 Intelligence has a default of 8 with every > human language. Either the celestial has been around long enough that > he's *heard* just about every human language, or his Superior jammed > that data into his head. Nonetheless, make him roll a d666 *every* > *single* *time* he tries to communicate or comprehend something in a > language which he knows only by default. This will be aggravating enough > (and lead to enough miscommunications) that someone who really wants to > function in a language will buy at least a point of fluency. This reminds me of a short story by Zenna Henderson, where angels are talking to a (modern) human. It goes something like this: "Fear not!" "Fear not? What are you talking about? "Umm... English. *Twentieth* Century. Right. Calm Down!" Conversation ensues, followed by: "Now look here... or is that Behold? No, Behold goes with Fear Not." One of the sources that my wife, who played a Mercurian of Archives, used as an inspiration for her character. Imagine a University librarian named Hypatia who occasionally accidently slips into Elizabethan English. Or Latin. Or Coptic. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:41:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Uh, hey. On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, Dan Weaver wrote: > Oh yeah, one (well, two) other things. I decided I liked a Malakim of > Stone best as a character, mostly for the solidarity, love & unity > street-punk thing thing they have going. So... > a) is it a complete rip-off to have a punk Malakim of Stone? Nope. It's a fairly common image (I think), but it's not a rip-off. > b) are Malakim supposed to be totally bereft of humor and the ability to > have a good time when not in the presence of evil, or can they enjoy > themselves when they aren't hip-deep in demon guts? I badly want to > have the following conversation before I mash something. > > Demon: Who ARE you? > Me: I'm BATMAN! Unless the Malakite has an oath to avoid humor and frivolity, they're free to enjoy themselves to the fullest. Have fun. (I have a swashbuckler Malakite of the Sword that I'd still love to play sometime...) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:44:10 -0800 From: Ryan Subject: IN> Children and Angels mating question. >> >> Would the "percentage" of angel in each successive generation be higher? >> That is, after 5 generations, would the resulting child be 98.4% angelic? >> >> If so, what are the results of this? >> >> Thanks, >> EDG This is an interesting question. I currently play a Child character who is pregnant with twins by an angel (Tomas, Angel of Catchy Tunes, "Night Music") I was going by the assumption that her daughters would be 75% angelic Grim88 rbeall@fdldotnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:48:09 +1100 From: Chris Rose Subject: Re: IN> Uh, hey. At 10:41 PM 29/11/99 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, Dan Weaver wrote: > > Oh yeah, one (well, two) other things. I decided I liked a Malakim of > > Stone best as a character, mostly for the solidarity, love & unity > > street-punk thing thing they have going. So... > > a) is it a complete rip-off to have a punk Malakim of Stone? >Nope. It's a fairly common image (I think), but it's not a rip-off. > > b) are Malakim supposed to be totally bereft of humor and the ability to > > have a good time when not in the presence of evil, or can they enjoy > > themselves when they aren't hip-deep in demon guts? I badly want to > > have the following conversation before I mash something. > > Demon: Who ARE you? > > Me: I'm BATMAN! >Unless the Malakite has an oath to avoid humor and frivolity, they're free >to enjoy themselves to the fullest. Have fun. (I have a swashbuckler >Malakite of the Sword that I'd still love to play sometime...) >Richard Gant Character I've always wanted to play is a Malakim of Flowers .. "I -=REALLY=- don't want to hurt you, but ........" Chris Ofanim of Lightning Angel of Phone Tech Support "Do What Thou Wilt, but Be Cool" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:04:25 EST From: Dreadblade0328@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Character Generation Question lol ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:08:22 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Children and Angels mating question. >This is an interesting question. I currently play a Child character who is >pregnant with twins by an angel (Tomas, Angel of Catchy Tunes, "Night >Music") "Touched by an angel," indeed... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:17:55 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Malakim >I got the main In Nomine book today and eagerly read through it and so >now I want to play this really nifty game. Kewl. Join in our reindeer games. >Oh yeah, one (well, two) other things. I decided I liked a Malakim of >Stone best as a character, mostly for the solidarity, love & unity >street-punk thing thing they have going. Heh. Servitors of David can be a lot of fun, yes. Just remember, he's the _stubborn_ archangel... >a) is it a complete rip-off to have a punk Malakim of Stone? Ripoff of what? I don't see why not, myself. >b) are Malakim supposed to be totally bereft of humor and the ability to >have a good time when not in the presence of evil, or can they enjoy >themselves when they aren't hip-deep in demon guts? The latter. But only to a (rather limited) point. "Very few Malakim display much of a sense of humor" -- APG, p. 48. So they're usually not *funny* angels. I could imagine a Mal cutting lose with the occasional wisecrack in the midst of battle, though. Not most Mals, but it could happen. And they can be cool, of course. Tough-guy cool, or swashbuckler cool. They can also be nice, insofar as a martial and honorable character can be nice. Think Superman. Fights evil, but rescues kittens from trees too. And they can hang out and let their hair down once in a while -- see "The Seventh Virtue" in the _You are Here_ book (Minor spoiler: it's a bar where Mals hang out, lift a beer and swap stories. Sort of). >I badly want to >have the following conversation before I mash something. > >Demon: Who ARE you? >Me: I'm BATMAN! Snort. Wrong superior... you want Kobal, not David. Although maybe, just maybe, a Mal of Eli. They "fight creatively", after all. And they have one of the most fun of all the attunements... "So Jones is the demon? Dang!" "Yep. And it looks like he's been planning to surprise you for a while..." "What!? Shoot! I'm unarmed! Um, gotta think of a Song to -- " "Yeah, you're hearing the disturbance of a Song, like evil violin music being played too fast, and Jones is sprouting teeth, claws, and some sort of body armor --" "Waitaminit! That's three Songs at once! He can't do that!" "Well, he is. And his clothes are tearing to pieces as his slouched, vaguely reptilian form expands out of them. He grins, showing picket-fence teeth, and takes a step forward. Beside you, Smith falls to the ground and begins to scream..." "Smith! Hey, wasn't he carrying a briefcase?" "Well... sure." "I grab it! [makes perception roll, with a check digit of 6] "Woo hoo! BRIEFCASE OF DEATH!! En garde, demon scum!" Tip: never, ever fight one of these bad boys in a supermarket. Unless you want to report back to your Prince that your vessel was destroyed by an angel wielding a deadly bag of potato chips. Yeah, maybe a Malakite of Eli. Doug M. . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:27:56 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Weird Default. At 04:55 PM 11/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >On the other hand, having angels ignore language barriers is >very traditional in drama and literature. In my own variation, >I explicitly say that celestials automatically understand any >language or script due to their intimate connection with the >Meaning Of It All. (Deliberate encryption or jargon about >things unknown to the celestial remain opaque, though.) I think it could easily make sense for all angels to speak any language due to the connection to the symphony. demons however I don't quite know. Also it might be intersting to think that perhaps all human tongues are perversions of the celestial tongue and therefore gkeaning snippets could be easily allowed. Ben, Balseraph of Justification ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:40:06 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> She's like the Wind... Thanks to everyone who responded! Combining replies to several comments here... > Interesting. My only nit is that it'd be better to just make her a >Bright Lilim of Wind. Brights, feh. Everybody wants to play one, everybody wants to meet one. Well, they're Very Rare, it's canon, deal. > (The APG Expanded resonance is amongst those things that will be Hunted >Down and Made to Die the Thousand Deaths! Amen.) Awww... I _like_ the expanded Mercurian resonance. Needs != desires. It's really not that close to the Lilim power. But, okay, note that I gave her enough other skills and songs that, in combination with the plain vanilla Merc resonance, she could probably winkle most humans' secret desires out of them anyhow. Just take a little longer, is all. > You can change her Discord (her Need is pretty silly, really; It's like >Merciful for any Seraph of Flowers) to Geases. Naw. She's not an Ofanite, remember. And this goes way beyond the standard Windy requirement to move every third day... she has to spend three hours a day running (or something similar), which is fairly obvious and distinctive behavior. If this Discord goes any higher, it's going to get really hard for her to conceal that something's wrong. Which is sort of the point of Discord, yes? My take on this was that she was running away from herself, from the violence that she'd caused. Which seemed a reasonable way for a Windy to go Discordant. Discord is about distortion, don't you think? Just as Falling is about perversion. I'd whack a Seraph of Flowers with... ohh, maybe Cowardly, Slothful, or Oblivious. Depending (contemplates a Seraph with Oblivious-6. Hmm...). IMC I try to relate Discord to the way the original Dissonance was generated, at least in some fashion. Then EDG wrote: > >She's stealing wallets - not necessarily lifting them from someone's pocket >while he's wearing the pants. Who's to say they don't disappear from >bedside tables, unworn pants, or store countertops? > My point exactly. Most Windies are light-fingered, but not all specialize in pickpocketing per se. And it's *real* easy to steal stuff from someone who loves and trusts you... no special skills or attunements required. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:40:05 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Shedim question (fwd) At 06:51 PM 11/29/99 -0500, you wrote: >Kyriotates have to pay if they are manifesting one celestial form _and_ >keeping hosts. If a Kyrio leaves all hosts at once, it's free. > in this case where does said kyriotate materialize assuming the hosts are in different places. Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1435 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.