From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 2 13:25:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA30347 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:25:03 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA14090 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:20:35 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:20:35 -0600 Message-Id: <199912021920.NAA14090@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1442 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 2 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1442 In this digest: RE: IN> Malakim IN> What if you had ALL dissonance conditions? Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement IN> Why Hell Hasn't Won Yet (was Re IN: Merc Resonances) Re: IN> What if you had ALL dissonance conditions? IN> The Humanity Attunement IN> The Late Great JC Re: IN> The Late Great JC Re: IN> The Late Great JC Re: IN> Why Hell Hasn't Won Yet (was Re IN: Merc Resonances) Re: IN> Celestial Forms Re: IN> Xena: Fallen Angel (In case you missed it. . .) Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Words, distinctions. Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Zen Re: IN> Weird Default. Re: IN> Words, distinctions. Re: IN> Vessels Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement Re: IN> Seravnts Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> Enough with the Smarmy Nitpicking! IN> Rewards and Experience Re: IN> The good ol' Humanity attunement Re: IN> Vessels Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> The good ol' Humanity attunement Re: IN> Malakim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:15:46 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Malakim Matt wrote: > While this makes sense for objects such as ladders, parking meters, > pairs of pants, etc., it makes less since that a single playing card or > jelly bean could be used in such a manner. That's stretching even the > cinematic nature of IN. I propose that while large, relatively solid > objects (parking meters, etc.) can be used like that, smaller objects > are thrown, etc. when they are used as weapons. Therefore, a Malakite of > Eli would need a handful of jelly beans, a deck of cards, etc. to use > them in combat. From the APG, Malakim of Eli using their attunment can use any similar weapon skill (eg Large Weapon (Club) for the hat-stand), or if the weapon defies description (eg a tissue), they can default to strength (or I believe Precision if the weapon's small) with no penalty. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:19:16 -0800 (PST) From: The Alien Subject: IN> What if you had ALL dissonance conditions? For your side, of course. I'm unsure how an angel would get to this point, but I can imagine a demon who spent too much time around Vapula getting into this boat... I'm not speaking of resonance. Just dissonance. All Choir or all band. Hmm. Maybe we should make that all major Choir or Band. With demons, too much is resonance-based. It wouldn't really work so well. With angels, however...you could accumulate those rather painfully. How bad, indeed, would it be? As another thought, what if Yves had a second-in-command who had some amazing post-master-level distinction(noncanonical) which let them stack up resonances and dissonances? Would such a Celestial be useless from what they could not do? Sean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:17:21 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement >However the problem comes with its better to not purchase the final >attribute increase that will gain you a new force because if you loose that >Force in celestial combat you loose the attributes assosiated with them. >Where as if you had stopped when you get to +3 among the attributes with >the assosiated force you could keep the bonus even after loosing all of the >forces. Good point. One of my players raised this exact issue a while back, after losing a force in cel combat. But another player pointed out that you gain a significant benefit by purchasing that fourth point... namely, you have another force. This will give you better rolls, more Body/Mind/Soul hits, better Songs, what have you. So, it's worth buying that fourth point anyhow. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:43:42 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement I understand the benifits of another force, but my point is when your reduced to 0 in a Force area having the extra attribute points around is helpfull and you loose this benifit by gaining the force. We handled it by saying its something reverse of aging in a way. The attributes aren't force dependent, so you still have those attributes after loosing all the Forces (making the extra points worth it). You have no Forces in that area, but you can function long enough to get another. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 02:17:10 -0600 From: "Matt W." Subject: IN> Why Hell Hasn't Won Yet (was Re IN: Merc Resonances) >Demons are routinely in conflict in each other, and an angel >that knows exactly how to make peace between them also has >some pretty good leads on how to spur even-greater internal >division. > >Divide and conquer, after all. Definitely. IMC, the *ONLY* reason that the demonic hordes aren't knocking down the Pearly Gates is that they are constantly infighting with each other. Look at the facts. - - Demons are more numerous and less noble. They are not bound by any oaths, creeds or contexts, other than to serve evil and some limitations per superior, though most of these amounts do make it involve (insert Prince's Word here). - - The demons operate on a savage meritocracy. No one is in power in Hell without being the best person, or at least the most ruthless/competent/funny/etc., for that position. Heaven, on the other hand, will favor a Seraph over another choir for a Word just because the Seraphim are nobility. - - Demons already have the upper hand. Humans need to be taught morality. Sin comes naturally. - - The supreme ruler of Hell, Lucifer, can be found and talked with (sometimes you even survive the experience). God hasn't been speaking much since Lucifer deep-fried Metatron a few millenia ago. and so on and so forth. But... The politiking, back-biting self-serving lowest common denominator tendencies of the demons are what give them most of these advantages. Catch 22, those some tendencies are keeping them from winning because they have those advantages. Hell trips and maims its own plans as much as the angels do, because if any one Prince wants one thing, you can bet essence to dollars that another Prince somewhere wants the exact opposite, and will do something about it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 02:53:43 -0700 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> What if you had ALL dissonance conditions? At 09:19 PM 12/1/99 -0800, you wrote: > Would such a Celestial be useless from what they could not do? Said celestial would, if he were never to take dissonance: - - Be unable to lie. - - Be unable to betray anyone to whom he was attuned. - - Be unable to willingly stop moving. - - Be unable to act subjectively. - - Be unable to break any of his oaths. - - Be unable to leave a host in worse condition than he entered it. - - Be unable to personally harm a human. Without the appropriate resonances: #2 can be applied to anyone on whom he's performed the Celestial Song of Attraction - or, more generally, anyone he's promised to protect, which could combine with #4. #4 can be mutated into "never break a promise", which can be combined with #1. #6 could apply to the Song of Possession. With the appropriate resonances: Said celestial /could/: - - Detect truth and untruth. - - Attune himself to X objects, where X is his total Forces. - - Move really fast and do all sorts of neat speedy things. - - Detect emotions. - - Detect honor and dishonor. - - Possess X Forces worth of people and animals, where X is his total Forces. - - Detect interpersonal relations. Said celestial wouldn't be impossible to play. In fact, I'll write one up now - with Discord rather than distinction, just to make it fun. Here's Hapi, Angel of Dissonance. Thoughts? (To make Hapi a starting character, remove the Word and a Corporeal Force, leaving his Strength at 2 and his Agility at 6. He should keep Forgiveness; make it 20 points for being a unique attunement. It's assumed also that the Need Discord is worth 3 character points.) Hapi Angel of Dissonance Mercurian of Yves Forces: Corporeal 3 (Strength 4, Agility 8) Ethereal 3 (Intelligence 6, Precision 6) Celestial 4 (Perception 10, Will 6) Skills: Artistry/2, Climbing/2, Cooking/2, Dodge/1, Driving/3, Fast-talk/2, Language: Spanish/3, Medicine/2, Singing/2, Swimming/2, Knowledge: Local Tethers/3 Songs: Celestial Attraction/3, Ethereal Harmony/3, Possession/3, Corporeal Tongues/3 Attunements: Mercurian of Yves, Forgiveness Discord: Dissonance/1 (Seraphim), Dissonance/1 (Cherubim), Dissonance/1 (Ofanim), Dissonance/1 (Elohim), Dissonance/2 (Malakim), Dissonance/2 (Kyriotates), Discord/1 (Need: Sweaters) Vessels: - Human male/2 (Tall, brown hair, brown eyes, about 25, good physical shape) - - Human male/2 (short, dark hair that's balding, brown eyes, stout) Roles: - "Bob"/2, Status/2 (First vessel) - - "George Davis"/3, Status/3 (Second vessel) Dissonance: 2 Story: Hapi never liked seeing people in pain - not only did he feel sorry for them, but it was his very strong belief that people were much more efficient when they weren't burdened by suffering. Yves saw this and gave him the assignment of traveling between the Tethers of a certain city, helping those angels who worked there to relieve their dissonance, and for years he did just this - with four Tethers in town, he could alternate days with his Roles, volunteering alternate mornings at the church and the art college, and alternate evenings at the shelter and the park. The Seneschals would direct him to angels newly working off dissonance, and he would help them on their way. On one particularly bad day, when he'd had to deal with an angel who'd Fallen while under his care and been utterly shredded by the force of the Tether, he swore an oath: that no angel under his care would ever Fall again. The Malakite he was helping later that day commented on the effort that Hapi was putting into the Malakite's work, and indeed Hapi was trying his best to make good on his oath - pouring his heart, soul, and, unconsciously, some Essence into the eradication of the Malakite's dissonance. After only four days, the Virtue was relieved of his dissonance, and Hapi and the Seneschal were stunned. Hapi began experimenting, putting more and more of himself into his "patients'" care, until he could consistently halve the time that such a reduction of the workload required. It was then that he discovered Forgiveness - or the first part of it, at least. He immediately ascended to Heaven and spoke to Yves, and when the discussion was over, Yves called the Seraphim Council together and publicly sponsored Hapi for the Word of Dissonance. When presented with an accounting of what was going on, the Council granted Hapi the Word (without further deliberation - rare in any case, and even rarer because Dominic and Laurence bitterly opposed the idea). Since then, the Mercurian has continued to shift between the four Tethers, and after several months' worth of work, discovered the second half of Forgiveness. This has caused no end to pain for him, but has also given him some interesting Discord. Unfortunately, his Word has put him at odds with both Dominic and Laurence - though out of respect for Yves, neither has acted against him. Blandine and Khalid both support him fully however, and rumor has it that Creation is behind him. His primary Role is that of Bob, an anonymously good-looking college student who attends the art college and is a teaching assistant. He also volunteers as a maintenance assistant at the park: he's most often found wandering the park with a sharp stick and a garbage bag. His secondary Role is George Davis, a portly ex-shopkeeper who now spends his days at the church and a local homeless shelter. No one knows where he sleeps; he simply shows up. He's affable, but doesn't talk much about his personal life, preferring to spend his time discussing other people's lives. In both Roles, Hapi /always/ wears a sweater. Hapi's Discord is particularly painful; in part because it was acquired wholly through use of Forgiveness, and in part because it causes him to mimic the dissonance conditions of other Choirs. For every level of the Discord he has, he gains a point of dissonance for violating the dissonance condition. (This means that Hapi gets 2 points of dissonance every time he breaks an oath. Fortunately, he hasn't yet.) The Dissonance Discord does not prevent Essence regeneration, although it is Celestial Discord. Forgiveness is an especially powerful attunement - but then, Dissonance is an especially powerful Word. By spending a point of Essence per day on helping someone work dissonance off, the user reduces the time needed to work off the dissonance by one day. (An angel may only spend one point of Essence per day in this fashion.) There's a second part to it, though: by spending /three times/ as much Essence as the target has dissonance, the user of Forgiveness may permanently transfer the dissonance from the target to himself. This can only be done, however, if the target is truly repentant, and all of the dissonance that the target has must be transferred; if the target is not truly repentant, the Essence remains spent but the dissonance is not transferred. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 07:02:30 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Humanity Attunement >>>(Now, everyone else can argue about how _they'd_ treat it, but that's my canon answer, and the only way I'm going to change it is if my Superior tells me to; is it really a big enough deal that I should bother him about it specially?)<<< Probably, because you're reading too much into it. I mean, first of all, it's not like we've never changed something because of poor phrasing before. And "under any circumstances" STILL doesn't mean NORMAL human or MUNDANE human. In order to make it fit this concept, you're shoehorning all kinds of other totally non-intuitive powers into the attunement. How are most GMs supposed to infer that the Humanity attunement will (a) reduce the demon's Body hits (or simply make a Calabite of Death perceive an arbitrary smaller number...and what smaller number is sure to convince it that the subject is a normal, mundane human?), (b) make the subject immune to possession (or make him MORE vulnerable to possession??), (c) disguise how much Essence he has (or REDUCE how much Essence he has?)? (d) Other things I'll think of later. What happened to KINS? Do you *really* want to spend half a page describing exactly how the Humanity attunement works in IN 2nd edition? Because that's what you'll have to do if you insist that it not only lets a demon pass as a human, but it lets a demon pass as a normal, mundane human (something not mentioned in the description). If you really take that "UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE" to an extreme, you'd have to say that even if someone acquires absolute proof that the person is really a demon, the Symphony will cloud his mind and make him believe otherwise. The demon tells Dominic "I am a demon using the Humanity attunement," and Dominic says "No, you're lying!" I don't think so. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:49:14 -0500 From: "Jon Compton" Subject: IN> The Late Great JC Hello, I am new to the list and IN in general. I have had the books for quite some time and have finally found the courage and enough willing players to give it a go. But I have a question, nowhere in the book does it really mention JC (Jesus Christ), I have looked at some of the IN web pages and a few people say he is really Eli. Has there been any official word on what role JC plays in IN? Is he in fact Eli? If there is no official ruling, what is the general consensus here? Thanks in advance, Jon Compton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:30:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> The Late Great JC On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Jon Compton wrote: > Has there been any official word on what role JC plays in IN? Is he > in fact Eli? If there is no official ruling, what is the general > consensus here? The official ruling is that there will never be an official ruling on the status of Jesus Christ in In Nomine. I don't think that there's anything resembling a list consensus, either. Here's some of the list's pet theories, however: 1) He's Eli. 2) He's God. Which explains why God hasn't spoken in a while - He's still in trauma from the crucifixion. 3) He's a Soldier. 4) He's Gabriel's child. 5) He's a normal human with delusions of grandure. 6) He's actually who he says he is. I can't think of any others. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 08:29:39 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> The Late Great JC >Hello, I am new to the list and IN in general. Welcome aboard. >I have had the books >for quite some time and have finally found the courage and enough >willing players to give it a go. But I have a question, nowhere in the >book does it really mention JC (Jesus Christ), I have looked at >some of the IN web pages and a few people say he is really Eli. >Has there been any official word on what role JC plays in IN? The official word is that there is no official word. Officially. It's a Rigidly Defined Area of Doubt and Uncertainty. Or, in game terms... those of the Host of Heaven who know the facts, ain't talking. >Is he >in fact Eli? If there is no official ruling, what is the general >consensus here? Don't think there is one. Although there's a Balseraph in the Book of Servitors who has an appropriately Hellish alternate theory... Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:23:29 -0500 From: Ben Aldred Subject: Re: IN> Why Hell Hasn't Won Yet (was Re IN: Merc Resonances) actually IMHO the reason that hell hasn't won can be summed up in two words: cold war. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:03:30 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Forms From: Earl Wajenberg > > Yeah, I do. I once suggested that Ophanim should look more "electrical" > and Calabim more "flame-like," but both should be systems of wheels. > Another list member had an excellent idea: Calabim in their campaign > look like black spirals -- spirals being broken wheels. > it's never really featured in my game, since the group never saw a celestial calabite. but i like the idea of them looking like a frozen explosion, a kind of mini-supernova, as if the rings collapsed in on themselves but were unable to release the resulting energy. or maybe black holes. > Since *THE* *only* visual description of seraphim in the Bible clearly > mentions their hands and feet, I prefer to describe them as looking > like six-winged, six-eyed Chinese dragons, which are still pretty > serpentine, but have all the limbs in the spec. > that's pretty cool. i've never been a big fan of seraphim looking like snakes. it's always made me wander why snakes get such a bad deal in christianity. would their feet drop off when they fall? > I once suggested that Shedim should look like a ragged black rip in > the air, through which unpleasant bits of anatomy are visible, heavy > on the glaring eyes and sharp teeth -- this an image of a demon > swiped from a "Sandman" story, "Season of Mists," mentioned in the > bibliography of the IN main book. ah, poor old azazel liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:51:03 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Xena: Fallen Angel (In case you missed it. . .) From: GR Cogman > support public virtue and teach kids ethics, (b) a vicious swipe at all the > Ethereals -- trust me, the stuff is _so_ warped from the classic myths that > it's painful. i don't know how bad it normally is, coz i don't really watch it, but i saw an episode where xena was fighting a bunch of romans. i spent about ten minutes ranting about "how it was meant to ancient bloody greece" until the worried looks of my flatmates made me calm down. anyway, fairly rubbish. unless of course there's some whole time-travel thing going on that i've missed or something liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:16:33 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim From: Whistling in the Dark > > "Shut up. We have airbags." > *lol* i must now convince one of my friends to run an IN game so that i can play a malk and use that line :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:31:41 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Words, distinctions. From: Ben Glickler > Could someone provide a concrete example of the tasks necessary to obtain a > distinction? What would qualify as a spectacular success/advancement of > your boss's word? What are some examples of tasks that would qualify an > angel for a higher-level distinction? well, i guess part of the problem is that there aren't any concrete examples, as such, it depends on the superior in question, the servitor's actions and previous actions, the style of game you play, the power level you're playing at, all those kind of things. i ran a game (on-and-off) for a year and never handed out any distinctions. but then, i was running a fairly low-key game. i think that as PCs start off as "favoured servitors" they're maybe not that far off gaining a first distinction, they just have to have a big success on some big mission that serves their superior's word. i was considering giving the menunite of dreams in my group a level-one distinction after an adventure where they saved a boy's soul in the marches (i think it was a adventure idea i got off this mailing list ages ago, or something). the ofanite of jean had one in the pipeline due to foiling an evil vapulan plot involving the internet and channel 5 (don't ask)., but he was "under observation" due to some starnge behaviour recently (hanging out with dodgy gabrielites). so, if we were still playing now (a year and a half into a campaign), there'd be two characters with level one distinctions, out of a group of five or so. the players would have to do something that really _impressed_ me (both as GM and superior) to get a level two. maybe if we played through the whole final trumpet thing, i could see characters getting level twos (if they already had level ones). assuming of course that they did really well. just surviving the thing wouldn't be near good enough. bringing khalid back into the fold could do it. i doubt i'd ever give a level three distinction. can't see it happening in the kinds of games i run. as for words, well... i see a word as being something a character would devote their whole existence to. they'd have to be _obsessed_ with it, and pretty much from character creation. it's no good having a character who gets bored of his attunements and decided being the Angel of Machine Guns would be cool. if any of my players had created a character who _fromt he start_ was obsessed with machine guns, i might let them take a crack at it. but i'd make them spend pretty much all their time either obsessing on the subject, trying to strngthen "thier" word (even though it's not actually their word yet), and trying to impress on the upper echelons their worthiness for the word. none of my players have ever made a character this obsessed. if one of them had, back when a started running two(ish) years ago, and had kept up this kind of obsession, i could see them having a (minor) word by now. but only just. but maybe i'm just stingy liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:15:24 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim From: Ben Aldred > best example IMHO of the Malakite of Eli attunement is Jackie Chan. He > grabs a towel, a ladder or anything that happens to be sitting around and > opens up a family size can of whoop ass on whoever is around. they remind me of bullseye, out of daredevil. well, a nicer version of bullseye. but only slightly nicer. liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:12:58 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Zen From: Elizabeth McCoy > At 9:36 AM -0600 11/29/99, Santiago wrote: > > If an angel Falls in the forest and no one is around to hear > >the Symphonic disturbance, does it still generate echoes? ;) > > > Nope. Falling creates no Symphonic disturbance. > > unless of course you fell on to a log and snapped it in half. not much disturbance, but a bit :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:14:42 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Weird Default. From: Ben Aldred > Also it might be intersting to think that perhaps all human tongues are > perversions of the celestial tongue and therefore gkeaning snippets could > be easily allowed. maybe not so much perversions as simpler versions. i could see raphael teaching the monkeys to talk to each other around the same time that jean kept hitting trees with lightning liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 07:00:15 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Words, distinctions. Part of the 'problem' with PCs getting distinctions is that it's implied that when you get a distinction, you probably also get increased responsibility for something from your superior (kind of like being middle management). This varies a bit with superiors, but any traditional/ hierarchical type is likely to go with this. Now, unless all PCs are working for the same Superior, anything like that is going to take one PC away from the group for awhile (probably), as he has to deal with his own subordinates/ altered responsibilities. This prolly isn't so marked at the first level of distinctions - which may well just be a mark of seniority/ good service, but may be quite a factor later on. ie. Celestials with higher Distinctions are less likely to be sent out as trouble-shooters, and more likely to be in charge of other celestials who do that sort of groundwork. I was once quite tempted to run a Hell-based game in which PCs were roughly Baron level, and had to devote lot amount of time to managing/ recruiting their own minions, and dabbling in infernal politics, as well as any other sorts of plots -- or missions from their own bosses. (The only way I can really think of to do this involves some email component and lots of co-operative world building). But it's a very different style of game from having PCs who are basically sole operatives, jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:14:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Vessels At 7:47 AM -0800 12/2/99, Azrael wrote: >> >3)What are the maths (i.e. Roll against Characteristic, damage = check >> digit plus power, >> > plus strength plus the value of the dollar etc..) for Numinous Corpus i.e. >> is strength included in the >> >rolls, do the damage bonus' given for kicks and punches apply (Pg. 65) (If >> not why not!!!!) etc.. >> >> >> depends on the NC. if it's something like Claws, use the Claws CD during >> combat with regular rules to hit, etc. > >What Imeant to say is: >Do you include strength in rolls for NC attacks? Check the errata for the main book. I belive the formula is: Corporeal Forces + Strength + Fighting + NC bonuses (if any). With weapons, it's CorForces + Strength + Weapon Skill (for Strength-based weapons) or CorForces + Precision + Weapon skill (for Precision-based weapons) That's off the top of my head, though. Check errata. www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata/ - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:25:14 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement I always thought that the Humanity attunement origionates from Lucifer. When he gave Amsodeus the duty of running hells Game he gave him a powerful tool to do it. Thus when trying to pierce the Humanity attunement you're up against the Will of the Lightbringer. This would also explain why he can see through it. While I agree that it doesn't neccesarly say mundane human, what it says is that they pass as a human no matter what. So if you see someone with 13 essence and 100 some body hits and their under the effect of Humanity you conclude, "Wow, that's one jacked up human." You just can't conclude otherwise. It seems to me that the Humanity attunement is a lot like a Balseraph lie, a very powerful Balseraph's lie. It costs one essence to activate, maybe to send the message to Lucifer to turn it on for them (the attunement itself is merely a specific channel that calls Lucifer for that specific reason). This can get amusing if a demon in bad standings with Lucifer tries to activate it and finds they just signaled the attention of a very POd Dark Lord. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:55:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement At 9:50 PM -0700 12/1/99, Tim Groth wrote: >This just came up IMC and it bothers me, so I want some opinions. > >If you purchase a new Force (gift from your Superior and all that) then you >get 4 attribute points, this costs 10cp. If you steadily increase your >attributes you can eventually gain a force, this costs 12cp. Yup. And this is in the GMG...! You can work it two ways. #1: the attribute increase that buys the Force is only 1 point. #2: 12 points is the price you pay for becoming more powerful _without_ getting a Force from your Superior! A: you're doing it the hard way, and B: he _doesn't know you have it_! (Unless he squints at you on your next meeting, of course.) B is a good reason why demons might pay more... >However the problem comes with its better to not purchase the final >attribute increase that will gain you a new force because if you loose that >Force in celestial combat you loose the attributes assosiated with them. Actually, there's at least one of my characters who doesn't do the final boost because she (I) want raised attributes but doesn't want to make any more disturbance if she has to go celestial. (Yes, the Renegade.) But yeah, keeping a few boosted attributes can be useful for keeping the little boost even if Force-stripped. This probably won't come into play often, though, except maybe with Remnants -- you really have to be stripped to 0 Forces in a realm for the itty-bitty 1-3 boost to matter. (Of course, having the full Force has other benefits -- it's a trade-off between what you/the character thinks is more important. My Renegade would rather be as quiet as she can be when going celestial or swapping vessels. Joe Malakite would probably rather have the extra Force.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:55:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seravnts At 11:26 AM -0800 12/2/99, Azrael wrote: >Does a servant imp (Lv 2) need to but avessel to manifest on the Corporeal >plane, Imps and gremlins don't need vessels to stay on the corporeal plane, but do need one to affect things physically. (Such as if they don't have the Song of Motion, or are a familiar.) >bought out of its own characters points or can it manifest on its own, or is the vessel > provided free of Charge? GM's option. The GM is the one who builds servants, or at minimum has veto power over them. (See the Liber Servitorum...) >How much does itcost to ugrade the servants' level as a resource? Liber Servitorum. Charge the difference between the old level and new level; Class improvements earned during play are 'freebies.' - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:55:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement At 7:02 AM -0600 12/2/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>(Now, everyone else can argue about how _they'd_ treat it, but that's my canon answer, and the only way I'm going to change it is if my Superior tells me to; is it really a big enough deal that I should bother him about it specially?)<<< > >Probably, because you're reading too much into it. Fine. I'll ask SJ. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:32:56 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Enough with the Smarmy Nitpicking! From: David Edelstein > I can't prevent anyone from continuing to do this, but I assure you, I > can match you snide & smarmy correction for snide & smarmy correction > and make sure you don't have any more fun doing it. hmm, i can't help but agree with this, though it does feel a little like i've just been told off by my dad :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:56:44 -0600 From: "Matt W." Subject: IN> Rewards and Experience All this is, of course, in reference to the recent ongoing debate how just how many points you should give your characters per session... I have a solution. Don't give points. A much more realistic and better roleplaying way, IMHO, is to keep mental track of how many points the character should be getting, and their Superior gives out rewards of the Superior's choosing at the end of the adventure. A Song, an increased level in a skill, a new vessel to replace the one that was turned into flambe, etc. The characters may of course request certain attunements/skills/songs, but the Superior need not answer those requests. And if the characters are demons, their Prince might just reconsider giving them *anything* should they second-guess his gifts. Given this limits the freedom the characters have with their players, but it allows the GM to control munchkinism and so forth. It also makes it much harder for the players to get *exactly* what they want, making rewards of a specifically requested kind even more special. In my own campaign, I actually run a mixed system for rewards, giving out a couple of points worth of new stuff, and one or two points on the sides. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:37:35 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> The good ol' Humanity attunement From: Tim Groth > Since it masks enough to leave only clues that their not actually human you > can't instantly assume that every cute little girl that has 10 essence and > can take 100 some body hits is a demon of the game. It just means that > what ever she is it ain't a normal human. yeah, but surely the point of the attunement isn't to hide the fact that it's a demon. it's to convince people that the demon is human. so once they find out the so-called human has 100 hits, or whatever, the attunements pretty much useless. sure, they can't be sure that it's a demon, but they'll know it _isn't_ human. and i think most angels (at least, those briefed on asmodeus' little tricks) would assume (quite rightly) that it's more likely to be a demon than an ethereal. and it's not as if they have to worry about killing an "innocent undead guy" either. though this does beg the question of why some angels would be pummelling a cute little girl about so much they realise she has 100 body hits and so can't be human after all :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:41:32 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Vessels From: Dennis Groome V > From: Azrael > >1) Do Vessels die from a headshot? > > if they take enough body hits from it. personally, i use a modified combat > system (which, BTW i noticed was in the GMG when i scanned through it, > although i could be a little wrong) which makes gunfire quite deadly... well, in nomine has a very loose combat system, so headshots aren't really a factor. it's all pretty abstract. if you roll lots of damage when you shoot someone, i guess you could take that as meaning you'd hit them somewhere like the head. that picture of the clestial being perforated with bullets but not seeming too worried about it (somewhere in the main book) has always lead me to believe that celestials are generally more blase about physical damage than mortals are. hence more hits. i don't imagine vessels as being necessarily tougher or denser than human bodies, they can just keep going on a lot less liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:47:52 -0800 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim >While this makes sense for objects such as ladders, parking meters, >pairs of pants, etc., it makes less since that a single playing card or >jelly bean could be used in such a manner. That's stretching even the >cinematic nature of IN. I propose that while large, relatively solid >objects (parking meters, etc.) can be used like that, smaller objects >are thrown, etc. when they are used as weapons. Therefore, a Malakite of >Eli would need a handful of jelly beans, a deck of cards, etc. to use >them in combat. >Comments? I disagree further than that. I would not let a Malakite of Eli say, "I grab the bag of jelly beans -- lemme roll for the power...". That is preposterous. They are creative fighters. They are not cartoony fighters. I *would* allow him to make a roll, and depending on the check digit, tell him what he finds. "A 3? Fine. There's a heavy can of paint you can grab by the handle. Go at it." This means you're not going to get genre-defying and mood-destroying weapons, but you will get an interesting character that can turn anything remotely dangerous into a weapon. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:17:54 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> The good ol' Humanity attunement >though this does beg the question of why some angels would be pummelling a >cute little girl about so much they realise she has 100 body hits and so >can't be human after all :) Very, very, very dark and low contrast game. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:17:42 -0700 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Malakim At 11:47 AM 12/2/99 -0800, you wrote: >I disagree further than that. I would not let a Malakite of Eli say, "I >grab the bag of jelly beans -- lemme roll for the power...". That is >preposterous. They are creative fighters. They are not cartoony fighters. "Anything they pick up can be used as a weapon with Power equal to the check digit of a successful Perception roll, for the length of a single combat." In other words, if I pick up a handful of jellybeans, my Malakite of Eli attunement lets me know exactly how to best use these jellybeans as a weapon. (If I pick up a bag of jellybeans, it lets me know exactly how to best use this /bag/ of jellybeans as a weapon. The individual jellybeans are still just tasty.) If you don't want someone fighting as creatively as possible to ruin the mood of your game, and you're running a canon game, then either carefully guide character creation, or don't allow Malakim of Eli in your game. (If you're not running a canon game, then feel free to do whatever you like. Just make sure your players are aware of it.) >I *would* allow him to make a roll, and depending on the check digit, tell >him what he finds. Maybe use this as a second facet to the actual power - roll Perception to notice the thing within sight and easy reach that could most easily be used as a weapon. (Check digit indicates the effective Power of the object.) However, it's not the way the stated power works. Cheers, EDG ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1442 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.