From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Dec 5 18:46:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29527 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:46:09 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA05827 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:43:17 -0600 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:43:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199912060043.SAA05827@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1448 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, December 5 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1448 In this digest: Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> Re: >:(Fluff) The End of Dominic, The Return of Eli Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance RE: IN> Malakim Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance IN> Seattle Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. IN> Lose 5-15 Inches In One Hour! Introducing Non-Surgical Liposuction! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:21:38 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. > Honestly, man, if you're taking IN totally seriously, you are IMHO -wasting > your time-. IN started out as a satire, and in its current form is a black > comedy on a par with Paranoia. While the game may have begun as a satire, it currently contains no content that is satirical or comical. It's quite a serious, dark game, with a few light points, but nothing that would make it non-serious. Perhaps I am wrong. It may be nice if I am. Please, if I am wrong, quote some content that is satirical and black comedy. Thanks. > Redneck Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:27:50 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim > If people are worried about the attunement ruining the mood just don't have > silly objects around. I mean if your running a gritty campeign there > aren't likely to be many jellybeans and cotton swabs around, especially > when a fight is about to break out. Yes, but it becomes frustrating for both player and gamemaster when the gamemaster always has to say, "No, there's no grass outside" to prevent the Malakite from plucking a blade of grass and doing kung fu with it. > Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:33:25 -0500 From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Malakim >Yes, but it becomes frustrating for both player and gamemaster when the >gamemaster always has to say, "No, there's no grass outside" to prevent the >Malakite from plucking a blade of grass and doing kung fu with it. > >> Timothy, Angel of Rambling I used the Attument in a manner that irritated some players, but seemed more in the spirt of the ability. It allowed the user to realize how an object could be used as a "Weapon" but its Power, accruacy and such was up to me and uses might be limited. A towel could sued to snap at sensitive area, converted into garotte, sued to tie up weapon arms, etc. Jelly beans might cause an opponent tolose footing for a moment, a blade of grass...hm, maybe blown into an opponents eye? The player could suggest methods. It seemed to fit the spirit of the Attuement: fighting "creatively" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:42:47 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Malakim >Yes, but it becomes frustrating for both player and gamemaster when the >gamemaster always has to say, "No, there's no grass outside" to prevent the >Malakite from plucking a blade of grass and doing kung fu with it. I think they'd grab a rock or clump of dirt or first full of grass instead (which would be more effective). If your going to let them do kung fu with a blade of grass then either the option that the attunement changes the item slightly (it turns into something like a needle) or use the option that what the thing is will effect the power (grass isn't very damaging as an individual blade, though a bunch of it could be shoved down someone's throat). It does matter how you interpret the attunement. As written it can be interpretted to make something into a weapon by some proccess simular to the Transubstantiation attunement or it allows you to use the item as the most effective weapon it can be which would still be limited by the power of the object. The attunement has the potential to get silly in numerous situations, however if the mood of the game isn't partciularly silly then it shouldn't come up. Even in a silly campeign if you don't want to stretch it too far Malakim are going to prefer larger more weapon like objects if just for the fact they have a greater reach (and look cooler). I had a Malakite of Eli uproot a tree (not a very large tree, but still) and use it as the weapon. Sure there was grass around, but there were better things that could be used as weapons and starting off something that has a good potential for damage is just common sense. And in silly games common sense is a disadvantage. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:47:56 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement > * Asmodeus doesn't recognize his own servitors when they are using the > attunement. > * Asmodeus recognizes his servitors, but thinks they are Hellsworn. God can't see through the attunement. Even if you roll a 111, and get intervention, you won't find out. As it reads, *only* Lucifer can see through it, so if you roll a 666, and the Lightbringer wants to tell you... Resonance can't see through this attunement. As it reads, if a humanitized Gamester tells Dominic that he's a demon, Dominic will accuse him of being a liar, because the attunement will make the resonance register the statement as a lie. If Dominic shouts back, "You are a human!", would he get dissonance, or would he not, since this would reveal that the Gamester is not a human? Or would Dominic get dissonance, but not notice, and then Fall after a short conversation, since noticing the dissonance would reveal that the Gamester was not a human? Forget Dominic -- what about a player character Seraph? Demon: "I am a demon." (BONG! It's a lie!) Seraph: "No, you are not." Demon: "I am a human." (no bong. this must be true.) Seraph: "You are human." (Seraph gets dissonance, doesn't notice due to the Humanity attunement.) Seraph: "You lied to me the first time. I don't like lies." (Seraph gets dissonance...) Seraph: "You are no demon. Now talk to me, or my friends will make you talk..." (Seraph gets dissonance. Seraph Falls.) Or would he not Fall, since Falling would reveal that he was lying, and if he was lying, then the Gamester must be a demon? If he does not become dissonant when he tells the Gamester that he's a human, then the Seraph can lie without becoming dissonant. Is this acceptable? Furthermore, what if the Seraph says to the Gamester, "You are a demon." Would he become dissonant, because the Gamester is human, and this is a lie? If the Seraph does not become dissonant, then he knows he just spoke the truth. If he DOES become dissonant, then he just became dissonant for speaking the truth. Is this acceptable? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:32:44 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Malakim At 1:27 PM -0700 12/5/99, Ben Glickler wrote: > > If people are worried about the attunement ruining the mood just don't >have > > silly objects around. I mean if your running a gritty campeign there > > aren't likely to be many jellybeans and cotton swabs around, especially > > when a fight is about to break out. > >Yes, but it becomes frustrating for both player and gamemaster when the >gamemaster always has to say, "No, there's no grass outside" to prevent the >Malakite from plucking a blade of grass and doing kung fu with it. Then disallow the attunement. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:50:18 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. > I would just sum up all the problems with using a certain item as a weapon in a penalty to the to hit roll and to the damage. Cotton swabs would do very little damage and be hard to hit with, then again most Malakim of Creation would grab things that were sturdier and easier to strike with if given the choice ("Hmm use that hose as a weapon or use the lint from my pocket"). No. If the Malakite of Creation rolled a 6 on his perception check digit, the cotton swab would do a *lot* of damage. As much damage as a sawed-off shotgun. > Timothy, Angel of Rambling Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:03:25 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Malakim > >Yes, but it becomes frustrating for both player and gamemaster when the > >gamemaster always has to say, "No, there's no grass outside" to prevent the > >Malakite from plucking a blade of grass and doing kung fu with it. > > Then disallow the attunement. Having never been a fan of saying, "If you don't like it, leave"... Is that really acceptable? I'm merely seeking resolution -- I'd like to run a canonical game, having taken the treacherous path of house rules many times and found it lacking, but this attunement troubles me. What do *you* do when your Malakite of Eli picks up a sesame seed and rolls a 6 on the check digit? Does his foe suddenly become violently allergic to sesame seeds? Does he flick it into his enemy's eye? Does he Leap At His Enemy, Poke Him Meanly And Ram The Sesame Seed Down His Throat (tm)? I'm not making the assumption that the first edition print of the attunement is necessarily the best wording, as it seems to have many flaws that may have been unforseen by the writers. Unless the writers aren't troubled by a Malakite of Eli attacking a foe with a check digit 6 grain of salt. > Eric Alfred Burns Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:09:57 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance >Demon: "I am a demon." (BONG! It's a lie!) >Seraph: "No, you are not." >Demon: "I am a human." (no bong. this must be true.) >Seraph: "You are human." (Seraph gets dissonance, doesn't notice due to >the Humanity attunement.) >Seraph: "You lied to me the first time. I don't like lies." (Seraph gets >dissonance...) >Seraph: "You are no demon. Now talk to me, or my friends will make you >talk..." (Seraph gets dissonance. Seraph Falls.) Serpahim don't get dissonance from unknowingly lying, its not lying its telling the truth from your point of view. If they had their resonance active they would discover it wasn't entirely true when they set it off themselves and would be embarassed, but not dissonant. Anyway back to the Humanity attunement Asmodeus would recognise his Servitors vessels in their specific Roles. So although he couldn't show that they were anything but human he would be aware that they are who they are. I think that the attunement (in canon at least) simply prevents any method from detecting the individual as a demon, it doesn't do the cloud your mind thing. Also the attunement is a passive one, used to stay in ones Role and blend in with humanity. You don't activate it after you were in a supernatural battle with an angel who identified you as a demon, they'll still know but they'll no logner be able to prove it (which can be humerous, except if you pull it on a Malakite they'll probably just smite you). Here is one new thing to add to the ever growing list of how damned powerful the attunement is: If their passing as human disturbance has to be caused when a celestial or ethereal damages the individual. Also when they die it has to cause a massive amount of disturbance. I favor the interpretation that this attunement is actually Lucifer's, Asmodeus merely has the attunement of giving it out. Its on par with the power of the Lord of Hell than one of its Princes. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:13:39 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. Ok the power of the weapon is decided, but not its accuracy. So here is a canonical solution, make the damned weapon have an accuracy in the negatives. A blade of grass might be usable in some convuluted way to inflict massive damage, but good luck getting it to work that way. End of problem, next time the player will know to choose something you can hit with. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:19:25 -0500 From: hbias@earthlink.net (Harris Bias) Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement >> * Asmodeus doesn't recognize his own servitors when they are using the >> attunement. >> * Asmodeus recognizes his servitors, but thinks they are Hellsworn. > >God can't see through the attunement. Even if you roll a 111, and get >intervention, you won't find out. As it reads, *only* Lucifer can see >through it, so if you roll a 666, and the Lightbringer wants to tell you... Furthermore, the demon doesn't recognize his own infernal nature, unless he is the Prince of Lies. > >Resonance can't see through this attunement. As it reads, if a humanitized >Gamester tells Dominic that he's a demon, Dominic will accuse him of being a >liar, because the attunement will make the resonance register the statement >as a lie. If Dominic shouts back, "You are a human!", would he get >dissonance, or would he not, since this would reveal that the Gamester is >not a human? Or would Dominic get dissonance, but not notice, and then Fall >after a short conversation, since noticing the dissonance would reveal that >the Gamester was not a human? > >Forget Dominic -- what about a player character Seraph? > >Demon: "I am a demon." (BONG! It's a lie!) >Seraph: "No, you are not." >Demon: "I am a human." (no bong. this must be true.) >Seraph: "You are human." (Seraph gets dissonance, doesn't notice due to >the Humanity attunement.) >Seraph: "You lied to me the first time. I don't like lies." (Seraph gets >dissonance...) >Seraph: "You are no demon. Now talk to me, or my friends will make you >talk..." (Seraph gets dissonance. Seraph Falls.) > >Or would he not Fall, since Falling would reveal that he was lying, and if >he was lying, then the Gamester must be a demon? Actually he wouldn't gain any dissonance because he believes he is speaking the Truth. > >If he does not become dissonant when he tells the Gamester that he's a >human, then the Seraph can lie without becoming dissonant. Is this >acceptable? > >Furthermore, what if the Seraph says to the Gamester, "You are a demon." >Would he become dissonant, because the Gamester is human, and this is a lie? >If the Seraph does not become dissonant, then he knows he just spoke the >truth. If he DOES become dissonant, then he just became dissonant for >speaking the truth. Is this acceptable? Again, in this case the Seraph does not know the Truth, and is thus lying and would be dissonant. - -- G. Harris Bias hbias@earthlink.net "He had some measure of the infuriating trait that causes a young man to be a nonconformist for its own sake and found that the surest way to shock people, in those days, was to believe that some kinds of behavior were bad, and others good, and that is was reasonable to live one's life accordingly." -Neal Stephenson, "The Diamond Age" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:31:42 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement From: Ben Glickler > God can't see through the attunement. Even if you roll a 111, and get > intervention, you won't find out erm, i wouldn't see this as evidence of god not knowing. god is pretty much defined as the symphony, as in the universe itself. i find it hard to believe that anything can go on in the universe that he wouldn't be aware of. divine intervention is god lending a hand, it's not representative of god as a whole or his absolute power > Furthermore, what if the Seraph says to the Gamester, "You are a demon." > Would he become dissonant, because the Gamester is human, and this is a lie? no, it's not a lie. it's untrue, but the seraph is not aware that it's untrue. therefore the seraph isn't lying. therefore the seraph doesn't get dissonance liam ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:27:48 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement At 10:10 PM -0800 12/3/99, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Our spies report that on 05:13 PM 12/3/99 -0500, Elizabeth McCoy said: > >To quote SJ in reply to my question: "You're right. Period." > >[...] > Really, though, I don't think this answers the question. The response >wasn't, "I have looked that things and see no reason to disagree." It's >more like what one of the managers at my work told my immediate Superior >(haha) "Whatever you say to them will be right and I'll support you. Even >if you turn out to be wrong." It's a statement of policy on your >authority, NOT anything regarding the issue at hand. Um.... That's not what Beth did. Beth asked SJ for his ruling. He gave it. He didn't affirm her, he affirmed her take was the right one. This is why she called it "invoking her Superior." Trust me, Steve Jackson didn't get where he is by yes-anding Line Editors. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:29:40 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: >:(Fluff) The End of Dominic, The Return of Eli At 10:18 PM -0800 12/3/99, Sean McCarthy wrote: > Laurence has been turning the Armies of God on Earth into a Sword. But >Michael doesn't use swords. Perhaps the new leader should be ... ELI! >Able to Mercurian his way into everyones' hearts and use the Sword >creatively. To create the paradise on earth that many religions say will >come after the Last Battle.. [Archangel Eli rolls for his Attunement. "COOL! I got a CD of 6 with "Armies of God" for the duration of this battle, which is the entire War! Whoo hoo! Baal's player starts complaining bitterly to the Gamemaster....] - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:34:59 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance > Serpahim don't get dissonance from unknowingly lying, its not lying its > telling the truth from your point of view. If they had their resonance > active they would discover it wasn't entirely true when they set it off > themselves and would be embarassed, but not dissonant. Ooops. I knew that. Terribly poor example, then. Sorry. If another demon tells the Seraph that the Gamester is a demon, would this register as a lie or a truth? Does an Impudite become dissonant if he "kills" a Gamester? Does a Mercurian become dissonant if he punches a Gamester? Does a Malakite become dissonant if a Gamester captures him? If a Kyriotate possesses a Gamester, and somehow succeeds, does he know he's possessed someone with many more Forces than a normal human? Does he think it only has 5 Forces? If he thinks it only has 5 Forces, what happens if he tries to use his other 5 Forces to possess a willing subject? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 14:32:54 -0700 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement At 01:47 PM 12/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >God can't see through the attunement. Even if you roll a 111, and get >intervention, you won't find out. As it reads, *only* Lucifer can see >through it, so if you roll a 666, and the Lightbringer wants to tell you... Perhaps. It is, after all, fooling God's Symphony. Why should God notice that there's anything wrong? >Resonance can't see through this attunement. As it reads, if a humanitized >Gamester tells Dominic that he's a demon, Dominic will accuse him of being a >liar, because the attunement will make the resonance register the statement >as a lie. If Dominic shouts back, "You are a human!", would he get >dissonance, or would he not, since this would reveal that the Gamester is >not a human? Or would Dominic get dissonance, but not notice, and then Fall >after a short conversation, since noticing the dissonance would reveal that >the Gamester was not a human? Why would Dominic do this? Your logic has two flaws in it: see below. >Demon: "I am a demon." (BONG! It's a lie!) >Seraph: "No, you are not." >Demon: "I am a human." (no bong. this must be true.) >Seraph: "You are human." (Seraph gets dissonance, doesn't notice due to >the Humanity attunement.) Why? The Symphony thinks he's a human. The Seraph doesn't get dissonance. Regardless, though, Seraphim don't make statements like that. "You claim to be human, and evidence supports this." >Seraph: "You lied to me the first time. I don't like lies." (Seraph gets >dissonance...) Nope. The Symphony backs up the Seraph's claim that the demon lied the first time. No dissonance. >Seraph: "You are no demon. Now talk to me, or my friends will make you >talk..." (Seraph gets dissonance. Seraph Falls.) What possible reason could the Seraph have for saying this? It's really rather stilted. "You are human. You lied to me the first time. I don't like lies. You are no demon." That sounds like someone out of a book of logic puzzles, to be quite honest. Besides which, what demon using Humanity would /admit/ to it? Assuming the demon would admit it, a more reasonable conversation would go like this. Seraph: "I watched you tear that door down without touching it. I believe you to be a Calabite. Are you such?" Demon: "You got me. I'm a Calabite, all right." (The Symphony sounds a lie. The Seraph pauses.) Seraph: "You seem to be lying to me. I imagine you just heard me use that word and repeated it to me. Are you human, then?" Demon: "Fine, fine. I'm just some shmuck. Let me be." (The Symphony is silent.) Seraph: "Very well. You appear to be simply a talented human. Now, what device did you use to break down the door?" >Or would he not Fall, since Falling would reveal that he was lying, and if >he was lying, then the Gamester must be a demon? He wouldn't fall because he wouldn't be getting dissonance. >If he does not become dissonant when he tells the Gamester that he's a >human, then the Seraph can lie without becoming dissonant. Is this >acceptable? The Seraph is not lying, as far as the Symphony is concerned. >Furthermore, what if the Seraph says to the Gamester, "You are a demon." >Would he become dissonant, because the Gamester is human, and this is a lie? Yes. >If the Seraph does not become dissonant, then he knows he just spoke the >truth. If he DOES become dissonant, then he just became dissonant for >speaking the truth. Is this acceptable? According to the Symphony, he is speaking a falsehood. As far as Humanity goes, my only gripe is that those using it don't regenerate Essence, even though they're supposed to be just like humans (who regenerate Essence every day at noon, and when they succeed at Skill/6 rolls.) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:34:16 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement At 9:31 AM -0600 12/4/99, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Really, though, I don't think this answers the question. The >response wasn't, "I have looked that things and see no reason to >disagree." It's more like what one of the managers at my work told my >immediate Superior (haha) "Whatever you say to them will be right and >I'll support you. Even if you turn out to be wrong." It's a statement >of policy on your authority, NOT anything regarding the issue at >hand.<<< > > >Bingo. When the Line Editor takes canon disputes personally (and thus >presents the dispute to SJ as a vote of confidence for or against her >authority), the answer has nothing to do with whether or not the ruling >is *correct*. I honestly didn't read it that way. Beth gave a ruling. There was a request (yours, as I recall, David) for clarification. She said it would involve invoking SJ. You agreed that's what it would involve. She did so and reported. Beth's response was a hair clipped, I agree freely. That doesn't mean she phrased it as a vote of confidence. You don't have a copy of her e-mail to SJ, and this is putting words and intent in her mouth. In other words -- your disagreement with the ruling doesn't make it a pat ruling. - -- Eric Alfred Burns It was then I felt my heart break like a in-sabre@annotations.com fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com Reality -- and it's been broken ever since. http://www.annotations.com/~journal --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:36:43 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. At 1:50 PM -0700 12/5/99, Ben Glickler wrote: > > >No. If the Malakite of Creation rolled a 6 on his perception check digit, >the cotton swab would do a *lot* of damage. As much damage as a sawed-off >shotgun. Yup. Which I reflect as being able to drive the cottony goodness right through the eye into the brain. Which is as many body hits as a shotgun to the torso, if you get right down to it. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:42:06 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Malakim At 2:03 PM -0700 12/5/99, Ben Glickler wrote: > > >Yes, but it becomes frustrating for both player and gamemaster when the > > >gamemaster always has to say, "No, there's no grass outside" to prevent >the > > >Malakite from plucking a blade of grass and doing kung fu with it. > > > > Then disallow the attunement. > >Having never been a fan of saying, "If you don't like it, leave"... Sorry. After several goarounds on this subject in the last week, my patience is wearing thin on it. So I snapped about it. However, you don't need to keep it as written, and if it's this much of a problem, then don't. >What do *you* do when your Malakite of Eli picks up a sesame seed and rolls >a 6 on the check digit? Does his foe suddenly become violently allergic to >sesame seeds? Does he flick it into his enemy's eye? Does he Leap At His >Enemy, Poke Him Meanly And Ram The Sesame Seed Down His Throat (tm)? I accept it, roll with him to see the resolution, and come up with a description of the combat as it goes. However, it's very likely the sesame seed will get lost somewhere in the strike, making the rest of the combat part of the attunement fail as much as having a sword with Power 6 get dropped into a gorge. See, this is the thing for me. I think that Malakite of Eli will use a mop or something if it comes to hand because it'll be easier to keep hold of it during the fight, will be more sturdy, and will be most likely to stay at hand throughout the combat. >I'm not making the assumption that the first edition print of the attunement >is necessarily the best wording, as it seems to have many flaws that may >have been unforseen by the writers. Unless the writers aren't troubled by a >Malakite of Eli attacking a foe with a check digit 6 grain of salt. I don't know if they are, but I'm not. I'm reminded of "The High King" by Lloyd Alexander. A single twig can divert the flow of a river if used right, though the twig doesn't weather it all that well.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | now with web site content! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:53:04 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement At 1:47 PM -0700 12/5/99, Ben Glickler wrote: [. . . Much snippage about Seraphim talking to a Humanity-active Gamester. . .] To the Symphony, and the Seraph in question, the Gamester is human. He has to sleep like a human. He has to eat like a human. And he has to suffer the ill effects of other Celestials using songs on him, like a human. So, for the duration of the Attunement, if the Seraph says: You are human, it _is_ true. Since the human languages cannot express _everything_ like the Seraph's native tongue of Angelic, the Seraph often leaves out certain quantifiers whenever they speak of things beyond their perceptions. Otherwise they'd get hit with dissonance everytime their beliefs of future events don't come exactly true. Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 14:47:25 -0700 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance At 02:34 PM 12/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >If another demon tells the Seraph that the Gamester is a demon, would this >register as a lie or a truth? The Symphony registers it as a lie. >Does an Impudite become dissonant if he "kills" a Gamester? Yes. (Dissonance for demons is based on their personal Symphonies. He believes that he killed a human (he heard the disturbance, after all), so he gets dissonance. >Does a Mercurian become dissonant if he punches a Gamester? Yes. >Does a Malakite become dissonant if a Gamester captures him? Probably. I can see situations where he wouldn't. A Balseraph: Balseraph: "Hey, whoa, buddy, you just nearly got yourself killed. C'mon, let's get you out of here." Malakite: "NO! I must continue to fight the evil that is still riding that merry-go-round!" B: *laughs* "Listen, pal, I think you're a bit deluded." *resonate resonate* "It's just a kid riding the carousel. No big deal. You were a vet, right? Probably just had a flashback to 'Nam, that's all." M: "Yeah... a vet..." B: "C'mon, I'll take you back to my place. Get you some soup and some warm clothing. Just don't try to smite my cat, okay?" M: *smiles slightly* "Okay, that sounds good." Djinn across the park, into a microphone: "Frank's got 'im. Move to the house." >If a Kyriotate possesses a Gamester, and somehow succeeds, does he know he's >possessed someone with many more Forces than a normal human? Does he think >it only has 5 Forces? If he thinks it only has 5 Forces, what happens if he >tries to use his other 5 Forces to possess a willing subject? Yes (read: "a human", not "a standard human"), maybe (if you're a twisted GM), he auto-bounces (IMO). - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 07:55:57 +1100 From: "Leath Sheales" Subject: RE: IN> Malakim Patrick wrote; > The only IN campaign I ran had a Malakite of Eli. He used bar > stools, bedpans, > broken bottles and suchlike, and it fit the tone fine. On a sillier note, my campaign, had a Malakite of Creation facing off against another two Malakim (who continually refused to believe she was an angel. PCs, huh). The Creationer picked up one of the PCs and used him to beat the other one senseless. After all, he did register as a weapon of Power 6. Both PC Malakim now want the Creationer attunement. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 13:58:37 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance >From: "Ben Glickler" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >If a Kyriotate possesses a Gamester, and somehow succeeds, does he know >he's >possessed someone with many more Forces than a normal human That's kind of bizarre. And could a Shedite possess one? jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:22:17 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: IN> Seattle So Mammon and Marc are having a showdown in Seattle are they? Or perhaps they are trying to have some peaceful negotiations while Novalis (eco-freaks), David (unions), Janus (hey protesting is cool!), and Malphus (too many factions without him there to fan the flames) protest in the streets? In any case looks like a fun place for PCs to be right now. 8) Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:13:30 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Ben Glickler wrote: > Perhaps I am wrong. It may be nice if I am. Please, if I am wrong, quote > some content that is satirical and black comedy. Thanks. *salutes, bows* as you command. [Minor spoilers for Fall of the Malakim and You are Here] Satirical: The fact that the whole Anime/Manga craze is the result of a pact between the kami spirits from Shinto and Nybbas. Nybbas gets material, the ethereal spirits get power. Although this was pre-Pokemon, the phenomenon existed before then, and it certainly puts Pokemon in a new light. The "Cooking with Fat" show in Fall of the Malakim. The "Why We Should Brush Our Teeth So They Don't All Fall Out" brochure in You Are Here. Black Comedy: The method behind the murders that gain essence in Fall of the Malakim. Pickling people to death? Where Kobalites go, black comedy does tend to follow... Slapstick, even: "Eli: These angels can use their Skill for any fairly similar real weapon when using an improvised one, or base their roll on Strength or Precision with no default penalty if their weapon defies comparison (say, a lampshade)." (APG, p. 50). Death By Lampshade hasn't been dealt with even in the Mal of Eli thread. Michael Martin "It is no one's privilege to despise another. It is only a hard-won right after long experience." -- Isaac Asimov, "C-Chute" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:00:43 -0500 From: "Dennis" Subject: IN> Lose 5-15 Inches In One Hour! Introducing Non-Surgical Liposuction! Re: Lose 5-15 Inches In One Hour! Introducing Non-Surgical Liposuction With Detoxifying Regeneration Herbal Body Wrap Product! 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