From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 6 17:09:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03809 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:09:56 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA02385 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:05:34 -0600 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:05:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199912062305.RAA02385@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1450 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 6 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1450 In this digest: Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> Garden of Eden Re: IN> The Rev cycle Re: IN> Submachine guns and Ethereal stats IN> Satire, Comedy, Serious? (Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) Re: IN> Submachine guns and Ethereal stats Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement RE: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement RE: IN> Quoting Humor in IN (was Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) Re: IN> Humanity and Demons of Asmodeus Re: IN> No humans allowed In Nomine IN> Moral Ambiguity IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:41:01 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Gaing force by attribute improvement At 12:04 PM -0800 12/4/99, Azrael wrote: >Can you buy an additional 3 points in all areas after you've maxed out your >forces? Depends on the GM. I'd say NO. The system just breaks too much when you get _basic attributes_ above 12. But if a GM chose to allow it, I wouldn't bother to shake my head and go "tsk, tsk, you're letting yourself in for a world of hurt." O:> As Evil Things go, it's pretty mild. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:35:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 At 12:53 AM +0000 12/4/99, Uncle Wolf wrote: >Would it be possible to get the last little bit of the War adventure >seed, that part that got cut off by the end of page 142, and which has >not yet been added to the Errata [I know, I just checked]? Many thanks. I'm trying to get it from the appropriate author/editor. When I do, it'll go to the errata coordinator, and from there, it's out of my hands. Hopefully, it will go up quickly. I think it's only missing a few words (though I could be wrong). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:33:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement At 10:10 PM -0800 12/3/99, Sean McCarthy wrote: >Our spies report that on 05:13 PM 12/3/99 -0500, Elizabeth McCoy said: >>To quote SJ in reply to my question: "You're right. Period." > >Now, I may be silly here ... but wasn't the idea to get another opinion on >the topic, rather than an opinion on your personal power? Let's take this off the list. But no, the idea was to get another opinion on the topic. You got one. It was the same as mine. It was terse (he's very busy). It was slightly annoyed (he's _very_ busy, and I had a long list of all the things that would potentially be affected -- five resonances and fifteen attune- ments/Distinctions, remember -- which I'm sure he read). It was intended to be the last word. (Part of my job involves figuring out what SJ will and will not like! So far, I've had perhaps a 70-80% success rate on new canon, and a 90% or higher on interpreting old canon. This is part of why he plucked me from the ranks of playtester/author and _offered_ me the job -- I was making comments about canon that he found himself saying, "What Beth Said" a lot. Therefore, my "personal power" depends almost entirely on how much my opinions and his match. If my percentages on matching What He Wants go down too far, then undoubtedly you'll see another Line Editor's name in the credits and I'll go off to raise Impudites. But if you see this as solely a "power play," then you're wrong. A valid "second opinion from SJ" is not one that validates _your_ opinion over mine; it's the one that _he_ holds. And it happens that I read him correctly on that one.) (If you want to know about one where _I_ got him to go "UGH, NO!", ask me about my abortive Grappling rules... *sniffle* Shot down in their prime, blasted out of existance, denied validity even when the picture of a horde of cats on a robber would have been so amusing...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:40:57 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Garden of Eden At 6:39 PM -0700 12/3/99, Tim Groth wrote: >Ok the Garden did exist in the In-nomine universe (as there was an entire >Eden experement and all). Is there any canon on the nature/location of the >Garden? Location, not currently; there may be in the future. (Or there may be several suspected locations, or any number of interesting things.) Nature? I'm not sure what you mean. Corporeal, it was. O:> There's some stuff about Novalis creating it, in the GMG. If I recall correctly. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:39:35 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> The Rev cycle At 23:33 -0500 12/3/99, Tim Groth wrote: > Has the cycle method of >providing supplements been abandoned? No, but it went through a lot of re-thinking. I believe future cycles will be almost entirely coherent setting/adventure mixes, with relatively little rules material, and little or no general background (e.g. Superior writeups). The rules material has, with one notable exception I can think of, been shifted to the three Players Guides, the GMG, and the Liber books. Superiors, of course, are now being handled in the Superiors series. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:36:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Submachine guns and Ethereal stats At 4:08 PM -0500 12/4/99, Dan Weaver wrote: >All 'canon' submachine guns have a range of 3. [...] > Either In Nomine SMGs afflict the user with Discord(Severely >Palsied Hands)/3, or they are a bit less accurate than they ought to be. They are almost certainly less accurate -- in part, this is because In Nomine is primarily (I believe) designed for no more than the usual street-rumble level of combat. There, the lowered accuracy probably doesn't reall affect what happens much. If you get onto a battlefield, though... Alternatively, SMGs may be taking recoil into effect in a funny way -- don't they do auto-fire and jitter around in the hand? I don't think that the system can take recoil into effect any other way. >----------- > >And while I was writing this I noticed something odd about the Ranged >Weapons skill. Being smart (high Intelligence) does not engender an >inability to use firearms, but one would think so from the >Precision-based Ranged Weapons skill. Think of Precision as hand-eye coordination as well as concentration -- it's got a lot of fine-motor-control brainwork required. It is a little funky, since it requires one to break out Ethereal Forces from the notion that it's _only_ about intelligence and concentration. You can have a scatter-witted genius (high Intelligence, low Precision), or a dumb but able-to-concentrate gunman (high Precision, low Intelligence). The high-Precision person has not only concentration, but also a fine motor control ability -- all his "mind Forces" are spent coordinating his fine movements with what he wants them to be, rather than intellectualizing about it... (Which is the only way I can explain it. Otherwise, it's kinda weird.) >If it were my game, I'd divide Ranged Weapons >into Small Ranged Weapons(the higher of Agility or Perception) for >pistols and SMGs and Large Ranged Weapons(the higher of Precision or >Perception) for rifles and everything after. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:36:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Satire, Comedy, Serious? (Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) At 1:21 PM -0700 12/5/99, Ben Glickler wrote: >> Honestly, man, if you're taking IN totally seriously, you are >>IMHO -wasting your time-. IN started out as a satire, and in its >>current form is a black comedy on a par with Paranoia. > >While the game may have begun as a satire, it currently contains no content >that is satirical or comical. Mmmmmm, arm. (I think there are still elements which can be played up as satirical or comical -- Haagenti is the most _blatently_ "comic relief" being, though.) There are also some lighter characters in the Servitorum (that Malakite of Creation, say) -- and some who have satire-hooks. (Look at Malchristos, who thinks Kronos is a Fallen Jesus Christ.) The satire aspects are a _lot_ more subtle, though, than they were in the original. If you don't _want_ to see them, you won't, most likely. If you do want to see them, they'll jump out at you and hop up and down on your eyeballs. (Even parts that weren't meant as satire, probably.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:57:26 -0600 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: IN> Submachine guns and Ethereal stats - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth McCoy To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Monday, December 06, 1999 12:30 PM Subject: Re: IN> Submachine guns and Ethereal stats >At 4:08 PM -0500 12/4/99, Dan Weaver wrote: >>All 'canon' submachine guns have a range of 3. [...] >> Either In Nomine SMGs afflict the user with Discord(Severely >>Palsied Hands)/3, or they are a bit less accurate than they ought to be. > > They are almost certainly less accurate -- in part, this is because >In Nomine is primarily (I believe) designed for no more than the usual >street-rumble level of combat. There, the lowered accuracy probably >doesn't reall affect what happens much. If you get onto a battlefield, >though... > >Alternatively, SMGs may be taking recoil into effect in a funny way -- >don't they do auto-fire and jitter around in the hand? I don't think >that the system can take recoil into effect any other way. Yeah. They also pull in some direction, based on the orientation of the action. All of which is overcomeable with strength and skill, but they still aren't very accurate weapons; in close quarters, you'll tend to hit because you've got a number of chances. At longer ranges, it's kind of a crap shoot. Frankly, starting to think about auto-fire rules is going the wrong direction for IN, IMHO. Without 'em, SMGs won't really work right, but that's a price I'd pay to keep things simple. It's exacerbated by the game's tendency to reduce most humans to low levels of competency, but that's always true of games scaled to non-humans. I could go on and on about Stupid Champions Tricks. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 12:54:30 +0000 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 [snip ArchBeth's {Archangel hungry? here's a virtual cookie!!} reply to my request for the missing part of the last War Adventure in Superiors 1] Thank you very much, I will keep the Errata at SJ/IN under surveillance. One other question about S1: Who let KK out of her cage? [see Laurencian Adventures in S1 -- the list's own Lilim of Kobal get her 15 minutes of fame!!] I was very much amused to see her show up; this should also serve as a reply to another thread, about the lack of Humour/Satire in IN. take care all, Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "And so they linked their hands and danced, Round in circles and in rows; And so the journey of the night descends, When all the shades are gone." "The Mummer's Dance" The Book of Secrets by Loreena McKennitt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:50:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakim At 2:03 PM -0700 12/5/99, Ben Glickler wrote: >> >Yes, but it becomes frustrating for both player and gamemaster when the >> >gamemaster always has to say, "No, there's no grass outside" to prevent >the >> >Malakite from plucking a blade of grass and doing kung fu with it. >> >> Then disallow the attunement. Or, more usefully, explain to the player that while he can use some pretty funky things, thou, the GM, doth not see the campaign as being benefitted by getting outrageous in certain areas. "So please don't use this attunement with things like grass, Kleenex, Nerf weapons, and other stuff which you can't justify as having heft, leverage, or an edge." Seriously, if the GM and the players aren't in sync, the game's going to run into rocks anyway. If the GM _wants_ the Malakite to use grass (super-sonic stunner grass whistle!), and the Malakite is looking for a chair, both will probably be disappointed, just as if the Malakite is looking for _anything_ in a situation and finding grass, and the GM is going, "I just can't buy that!" Indeed, such a mis-match of expectations is probably symptomatic of a deeper mis-match in the campaign style. (E.g., actual experience in a game... Setting: a space station. GM: The person you're chasing gets onto an elevator -- it closes. PC: I jump onto the top as it's going down! GM: ... It's an _elevator_. PC: So? GM: (thinking, 'gazebo') The doors have closed. You can't jump onto the descending elevator unless you pry them open. Station Security will object to that. PC: [a goodly amount of OOC griping about how this isn't cinematic] GM: [attempting to explain that this is a _civilized_ space station, and it has _ELEVATORS_, not open-cab things that some kid could fall into and get itself killed when the elevator-cab wasn't there.] Needless to say, that PC didn't continue in the game very long. But as you can see, when the GM is doing Star Trek (and not DS9, either), while the player is doing Star Wars, _something_ will come up...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:50:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance At 2:34 PM -0700 12/5/99, Ben Glickler wrote: >> Serpahim don't get dissonance from unknowingly lying, its not lying its >> telling the truth from your point of view. If they had their resonance >> active they would discover it wasn't entirely true when they set it off >> themselves and would be embarassed, but not dissonant. > >Ooops. I knew that. Terribly poor example, then. Sorry. > >If another demon tells the Seraph that the Gamester is a demon, would this >register as a lie or a truth? Almost certainly true. (A smart Gamester wouldn't want to bet on this, though; he'd do his best to make sure he'd _duped_ someone into saying he was human!) >Does an Impudite become dissonant if he "kills" a Gamester? Yes. >Does a Mercurian become dissonant if he punches a Gamester? Yes. >Does a Malakite become dissonant if a Gamester captures him? Maybe -- remember, the Malakite will still pick up that this is NOT a nice person, and may pick up stuff that suggests this is a Hellsworn! If this is a Soldier of Hell, in the Malakite oath-dissonance, then it counts as "armies of Lucifer." So yes, dissonance. If the Gamester is somehow honorable and has never done anything the Malakite resonance would pick up... I don't think he'd get any dissonance so long as he believed that he'd been gotten by Just Some Human. And it's "allowing" himself to be captured. If he's knocked over the head... >If a Kyriotate possesses a Gamester, and somehow succeeds, does he know he's >possessed someone with many more Forces than a normal human? A tricky one. He'd have at least 6 Forces tied up there, I'd suspect. (There was, in Night Music, a Balseraph of the Game masquerading as a Soldier of God. "Look, I have 6 Forces! I'm a natural Soldier! I'm on your side!") The _easier_ option is to have the Kyriotate fail, and simply believe that the "human's" Will pushed him out. If the Kyrio has enough Forces free to do it, though (9 and 9, say), the GM may feel less justified in that unless he's ruling that Kyriotates must assign "max Forces to be used" for each possession _before_ attempting it. > Does he think >it only has 5 Forces? If he thinks it only has 5 Forces, what happens if he >tries to use his other 5 Forces to possess a willing subject? The GM has to get a little tricky. One answer is: it works. Maybe the Gamster has more Forces -- only those 5-6 are "in effect." Another limitation to use, if the first chunk aren't enough. The other answer is, the second possession fails, and the Kyriotate believes that the second host somehow shook off the possession. (Yes, this can get a little iffy, should the second host be a rat...) Maybe the second host wasn't as willing as the host itself thought. And yes, I'd let a Shedite have a chance to get into one -- it would only get human-style memories (Hellsworn-suggestive, though, most likely, and quite probably even Soldier of the Game ones!), and be forced out as soon as the attunement lapsed. And then the Gamester would have to kill it to preserve the secret. Good demons have enough Will to shake off possession, though, so _hopefully_ the matter won't come up much. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:08:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Ben Glickler wrote: > Resonance can't see through this attunement. As it reads, if a humanitized > Gamester tells Dominic that he's a demon, Dominic will accuse him of being a > liar, because the attunement will make the resonance register the statement > as a lie. If Dominic shouts back, "You are a human!", would he get > dissonance, or would he not, since this would reveal that the Gamester is > not a human? He would not get Dissonance. It's been made quite clear, I think, that Seraphim gain Dissonance for KNOWINGLY telling a falsehood.... otherwise, they'd never need to wonder what the Truth of something was - they could just sit around, making statements all day, and seeing which ones gave them Dissonance! > Demon: "I am a demon." (BONG! It's a lie!) > Seraph: "No, you are not." Correct. > Demon: "I am a human." (no bong. this must be true.) > Seraph: "You are human." (Seraph gets dissonance, doesn't notice due to > the Humanity attunement.) Wrong. The Seraph would read this as true, and would have no reason to speak otherwise. No Dissonance. > Seraph: "You lied to me the first time. I don't like lies." (Seraph gets > dissonance...) > Seraph: "You are no demon. Now talk to me, or my friends will make you > talk..." (Seraph gets dissonance. Seraph Falls.) Wrong and wrong. > If he does not become dissonant when he tells the Gamester that he's a > human, then the Seraph can lie without becoming dissonant. Is this > acceptable? Yes, because he's not LYING. Lying is KNOWINGLY telling a falsehood. Of course, the Seraph will be *very* upset/angry if and when he realizes that he was conned into believing a falsehood. Frankly, I don't see what this argument about Humanity is over. It seems VERY clear to me... it doesn't have to "cloud people's minds" at all! It just misleads their resonances and songs in a way that makes the gamester SEEM human. In other words, observe the following situation. AFAICT, this is how Humanity works - Beth, please correct me if I'm at all wrong. Gamester NOT using Humanity: "I'm a human!" Seraph: "Liar! You are the demon Asrotal, Calabite of the Game!" Gamester: "I'm a human!" Seraph: <100% TRUTH> "What the hell...? Either my resonance has gone totally whacko, or you're using Humanity. Given that you previously resonated as a demon of the Game, the latter is FAR more likely than the former. Come with me." See? The Seraph's mind doesn't get 'clouded' or anything like that. There's just nothing he can do, while the Humanity attunement is one, to know that the gamester isn't human. But if he ALREADY KNOWS, he wouldn't suddenly 'forget it'! Just like if you're friends with the gamester and you know his vessel well, if he happened to turn on his Humanity one day, you wouldn't just forget he was a demon! But if you used Ethereal Song of Essence on him when you *knew* he was full, it'd suddenly read "5". Humanity is only VERY powerful against people meeting you for the first time under its effect. They have NO way to know you're not a demon. EVERYTHING points to you being a human. The Symphony is on your side. But if Dominic tells his Malakite, "I need you to head down to Tuscon and capture or soul-kill an Impudite of the Game named Malthreemus. He is known to have a Role as Howard Jones, a stockbroker - here is the pertinent information. We know that he possesses the Humanity attunement, and have verified that no other humans in the area match his name or description, so do not be misled." ...then that Humanity isn't gonna help that gamester much. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "Jesus, this whole church is a fuckin law-suit waiting to happen..." -- Rev. Jesus B. Christ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:13:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Ben Glickler wrote: > If another demon tells the Seraph that the Gamester is a demon, would this > register as a lie or a truth? Let's assume that the demon does know that the Gamester is a demon. Here's where it gets funny and kind of twisted... On a CD of 6, the Seraph would get, "The demon believes that what he's saying is the truth, but The Truth is that the person he refers to is a human." > Does an Impudite become dissonant if he "kills" a Gamester? Hmmm...good question! I guess it depends on if Humanity stays 'on' after death. I'd say that, IMC, killing the gamester ends the attunement, and the Impudite feels a note of Dissonance ALMOST come... then go. > Does a Mercurian become dissonant if he punches a Gamester? IMO, Yes. > Does a Malakite become dissonant if a Gamester captures him? Yes... humans can work for the Forces of Hell. > If a Kyriotate possesses a Gamester, and somehow succeeds, does he know he's > possessed someone with many more Forces than a normal human? Does he think > it only has 5 Forces? If he thinks it only has 5 Forces, what happens if he > tries to use his other 5 Forces to possess a willing subject? This is the only REALLY sticky one. Ask Beth. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "When nothing's funny, it gets easy to laugh at the drop of a hat - or a bomb." -- Devo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:20:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Resonance can't see through this attunement. As it reads, if a >humanitized Gamester tells Dominic that he's a demon, Dominic will accuse >him of being a liar, because the attunement will make the resonance >register the statement as a lie.<<< > > That does seem to be what current canon would indicate...which is also > stupid. Why?? The attunment clearly states that only Lucifer can see through the attunement. That makes it very clear that Dominic can NOT. Now, if Dominic already KNOWS that the Gamester is a demon, he'll no doubt realize that the Humanity attunement is in use... but regardless, that statement of the demon will resonate as a lie. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! Windows 95/98: A 32-bit patch for a 16-bit GUI shell over an 8-bit operating system written for a 4-bit processor by a 2-bit company who cannot stand 1 bit of competition. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:25:22 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Eli's Malakite Attunement, and why it needs to be rewritten. "While the game may have begun as a satire, it currently contains no content that is satirical or comical. It's quite a serious, dark game, with a few light points, but nothing that would make it non-serious. Perhaps I am wrong. It may be nice if I am. Please, if I am wrong, quote some content that is satirical and black comedy. Thanks." WTF?! Not comedic? What have you been smoking? What do you call an Archangel who supports theft dark and serious? Riiight. How about Nybbys' major tether from the Liber Castellorom - WCKD? From You Are Hear - Aligned with Hell - Computer Science Department. Seasonal Publishing from YAH a publishing company run by Nymphs about to publish the book "Getting in Touch with Your Inner Archangel." APG Ofanite section "Obviously slashing vehicular travel time too far will invite unwanted attention from mortal "servitors of judgment" wearing badges and driveling black and white cars...". Also from the APG "'Hey,' said God. 'I'm all alone. I mean I'm everything, I'm all there is right?'...'Who am I talking to?' God asked himself 'Why is there a language if there is no one to communicate with?'" Angels and Their Colas: An Abstract Exercise main book page 106. Is that enough for ya? Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 11:20:57 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement and Seraphim Dissonance >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Does an Impudite become dissonant if he "kills" a Gamester? > >Yes. > > >Does a Mercurian become dissonant if he punches a Gamester? > >Yes. > Does the dissonance vanish as soon as the Gamester lets the Humanity attunement drop? jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 11:26:44 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Actually, the reason Humanity is such a powerful attunement is not because of what it actually does, but because of what most demons believe that it does. ie. Even if all it did was fog resonances, the fact that all demons /know/ that Asmodeans can perfectly disguise themselves as human to everyone except Lucifer means that they will stay paranoid. After all, the Game could be /anywhere/ and they might not ever know. All you'd need to do is say 'All demons know that only Lucifer can pierce the veil of Humanti' and the actual mechanics are moot. It keeps demons scared, nervous, and on their toes. That would suit the Game quite well, I think. It really doesn't matter if angels can see through the disguise. It's not there to fool angels. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:35:32 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Quoting Humor in IN (was Re: Eli's Malakite Attunement) "... It's terribly refreshing to befree of moral ambiguity, which is part of the charm of In Nomine. You know the angels are the good guys. You know the demons are the bad guys." Have you read the main book? Cause honestly there is a great deal of moral ambiguity. If the main book didn't make you see this I highly recommend you get the GMG ASAP. Heck just look at the preview file found at www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/gmg/ cause you are missing more than half the picture. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:33:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Humanity and Demons of Asmodeus At 10:22 PM -0500 12/5/99, Ehrbar wrote: >Here's my interpretation of what the SJ/Beth/Canon ruling means: > >1) No resonance, song, or attunement will directly reveal [...] >2) No resonance, song, or attunement will directly reveal [...] >3) A resonance, song, or attunement may indirectly reveal a fact that >is inconsistent with the demon being a normal human. Enough damage [...] Yes. (Possession is a sticky case -- it's a pretty direct case of resonance, actually!) >If someone reads consistently as human, *and* indirectly revealed facts >reveal that it is not human, then an angel or demon might reach the >conclusion that it is a Gamester. Yes. This is why any Gamester who is so revealed should attempt to kill those who have discovered that Gamesters can sometimes "go human." The Dread Lord of the Game does not _like_ having such a secret revealed. (Though a careful demon will still be able to sneak around -- only the most stupid Renegades will inflict great gory gobs of damage on every human they suspect to see if the human dies correctly or not... It gets very Symphonically noisy, and any _other_ Gamesters around (who are not Humanitied) will notice...) >The idea isn't that it's impossible to develop a circumstantial case >that a specific being is a Gamester using Humanity -- it's that the >Symphony will never reveal it to anyone other than Lucifer. Right. And, as a note, Interventions are a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. If someone wants the clause "except on an Intervention" tacked onto everything ... someone's out of luck. Interventions are _always_ outside the rules. As an alternate which may or may not make it anywhere, the GM may rule that the Humantied demon keeps his hit-points, but goes _unconscious_ at something appropriate for a (somewhat above-average, probably) human. So when left for dead, unconscious, the demon will survive long enough for medical care (or for the attunement to lapse, in which case he wakes up again with his normal hits). If the winners of the battle choose to go around cutting off heads of unconscious-and-maybe-dead enemies, then hey, he dies. So it goes. Heck, if he _plays_ dead, he still might get such treatment. This is probably preferable to what Asmodeus would do to him if he revealed his real nature. At 1:21 AM -0600 12/6/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >Another thing to remember about the Humanity Attunement is that it states >it prevents others from detecting one as a demon. Present Tense. There's >nothing which gives the Humanity Attunment a retroactive effect. If one >detected someone was a demon 1 second before they activated the >attunement, one won't suddenly forget once it's active. Yes. Have a cookie. > Since the Gamester knew it was a demon before it used the attunement, >he won't think he's human. (Though it's probably true that he's human _now_... I'd be inclined to say a Seraph CD 6 might reveal something like, "He's a human. He believes he's been a demon in the past." And throw in the occasional red herring loonie human...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:33:46 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> No humans allowed In Nomine At 12:08 AM -0800 12/6/99, Glenn D. Brown wrote: >"-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> > > >take care of the need to hide the War. On the other hand, >without any humans to fight over, Remember that a lot of Words depend on human activities for their Tethers -- those Superiors would probably lose a _lot_ of power, while the Elementals would gain a lot. Baal might hold even, and Michael, but Andre's Word would fade, as likely would Haagenti's. Jean would probably start having to draw more power from the elemental parts of his Word; David, Janus, and Gabriel would be fine, as likely would Belial. Malphas' power would shrink (unless you postulate that the number of celestials would _equal_ the former number of humans!), and Yves and Kronos... Would probably lose almost _everything_! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 16:10:24 -0600 From: "Matt W." Subject: IN> Moral Ambiguity >Same with In Nomine, although I suspect if you're playing the game as a big >cosmic joke, you're... missing something. It's terribly refreshing to be >free of moral ambiguity, which is part of the charm of In Nomine. You know >the angels are the good guys. You know the demons are the bad guys. The >biggest moral question the In Nomine game asks is whether or not the ends >justify the means. This is a sophisticated enough question to make the game >extremely interesting, and using it as a satire seems to answer that >question from the outset. Actually, it's chalk full of moral ambiguity. You don't know the demons are the bad guys, or the angels are necessarily good guys. In Nomine, in its serious form, is really about what really is good and evil? And it emphasizes again and again that it is very very fuzzy. Examples coming forth with, from various campaigns and adventures I've run, as well as canon: 1. Angels of Judgement frequently persecute Outcasts who help other people. They persecute because they are ordered to, not because it is good. 2. A group of Renegade Impudites who truly do like people, and protect a group of decent people from the ravages of several servitors of the Stone/Animals/etc, or use their Charm technique to calm the violence in an inner city neighborhood. 3. Uriel was an angel. He was instrumental and most of the time behind the cruel elimination of thousands of sentient beings (the Ethereals), many of which were not malicious or even neutral. 4. Heaven is an aristocracy, where there is little or no freedom of actoin, and even less ability to ask for a higher judgement on unjust actions by your Superior. 5. Heaven has a noble class (The Seraphs), which is put into positions it really isn't meant for. 6. Heaven supported the divine right of kings for an ungodly amount of time (see Superiors 1: Laurence's Failures), even when it came to supporting evil tyrants. 7. Hell is the only place where a celestial can rise to the top by his own merits, not by the judgement of a greater counsel (See Gm's Guide: Alaemon. It says what makes a Word-bound demon a Prince is having enough power to be a Prince, not by some greater declaration) 8. Malakim have a restriction which frequently demands outright murder (of humans). Their closest demonic counterparts, the Calabim, just break things. They don't even *have to* break things. They just like it. 9. (Please Don't Argue this one AGAIN! ONE INTERPRETATION! ONE INTERPRETATION) Mercurians can stand by and watch a group of Malakites go Ginsu on a school bus full of children, should the situation arise, and not gain a point of dissonance if he was not violent himself. Impudites would be racked with dissonance for allowing something like this to go on in front of them. Yes, the demon would be driven to a more moral action than the angel. and so on and so on. I'm missing alot. Anyone have any more good examples of moral ambiguity in In Nomine? = Matt W = \/ Seraph of Revelation /\ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 17:43:30 -0500 From: "J. Michael Smith" Subject: IN> Moral Ambiguity I have been lurking on this list for a few weeks now. I must say, I have found some pretty interesting ideas and just plain old reminders for In Nomine. Okay, to quit dabbling and get to the point- How many of you actually run In Nomine with Angels=Good, Demons=Bad, no questions asked? I personally love moral ambiguity. My angels (and those of my players) are often callous and fight without much regard to innocent bystanders. My demons (and those of my players) are often more tragic than evil. I've certainly seen a fair share of "good" demons too (particularly Impudites, Lilim, some Calabim) A lot of the time, they just want to be left alone. This isn't to say that I don't have angels of pure goodness, or demons of pure evil, but given any one angel and one demon, it isn't entirely obvious that the angel is the good guy. Well, there's more I could say, but it would just be disorganized rambling, so I'll leave it at that. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:02:41 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement From: Elizabeth McCoy > That's a non-canon view on it -- the canon view is that it causes > a certain amount of _lying_ to people's resonances and attunements. that's cool. i guess i got mixed up between the people who were saying "the attunements works as per canon" and the people saying "the attunement works and clouds your mind". i thought it was vaguely canon that the cloud-minding happened, which IMHO would suck. but if it doesn't, then i'm happy :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:59:34 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement From: David Edelstein > >>>I honestly didn't read it that way.<<< > > Thanks for letting me know. I'll keep that in mind should your > interpretation ever happen to become relevant to me. > take a chill pill. surely the whole point of a mailing list is so that people can share their ideas and viewpoints. if you go shooting down people in a snide fashion it just spoils things. i generally agree with your opinions (including on this topic), but that doesn't mean i want to see you being openly rude to other listees. liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:54:48 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity > How many of you actually run In Nomine with Angels=Good, Demons=Bad, no > questions asked? When I ran In Nomine a million and a half moons ago, back when the world was young and there were still wolves in the forests of Michigan, they pretty much ran the entire spectrum from those who were father killing, mother raping evil to Just This Guy. One thing about the setting that is interesting is that you _do_ get that entire Heinz 51 flavors of morality. How good is good, and how evil is evil? And what do you have to do to facilitate Falling and Redemption? It's largely up to the GM and his/her players how much on the dark and light they are willing to play. I favor a KULT RPG-like evil, where God hates everyone and you're lucky to be getting out of there alive, and I also favor a more moderate ambiguity at the same time. Different strokes for different folks, and it depends on how you want the feel of your campaign. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:02:58 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity >How many of you actually run In Nomine with Angels=Good, Demons=Bad, no >questions asked? Me. Well, mostly. IMC, Angels are The Good Guys. They disagree sometimes, sure. They make mistakes, oh definitely. But they almost never fight each other. They almost all are basically unselfish and caring. And all but the sternest will pause to rescue the occasional kitten. IMC Outcast angels are usually pretty pathetic characters. Interestingly, most players will rise to this challenge once they've been presented with a few examples of proper angelic behavior... I haven't found it too necessary to rap knuckles to enforce "my" standards. Most folks are playing angels because they want to play angels, after all; if they wanted to play very grey-shaded characters, they'd be playing some other RPG. The biggest grey-shading we encounter comes in terms of "honor" -- when is it OK for angels to lie, cheat, what have you. Plenty of ambiguity there. I tell my players that roleplaying angels consists of 1) Following your Choir's nature; 2) Following your Superior's Word; and, 3) Being unselfishly caring as much as possible. They then get into fun disputes over how much "honor" evolves out of those basics... >I personally love moral ambiguity. Oh, me too. But having _characters_ who are clearly good or evil doesn't prevent you from having lots of moral ambiguity in the _campaign_. In fact, IMO it actually helps. Really good characters will worry more, y'know? > My demons (and those of my players) are often more >tragic than evil. Oh, sure. I give my demons a rather wider range. Angels are white, off-white, or occasionally pale grey, while demons go from middlin' grey to inky jet black. Given that most of my PCs have been angels lately, I've found it fun to emphasize the two poles: 1) Most demons are really evil and deserve to be destroyed. 2) But a few aren't; you can kick back a beer with them, maybe even trust them a tiny bit. This keeps things interesting IMO. YMMV. Doug M. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1450 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.