From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 7 17:59:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04830 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:59:12 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA07621 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:52:10 -0600 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:52:10 -0600 Message-Id: <199912072352.RAA07621@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1451 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 7 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1451 In this digest: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Why GM's Need Common Sense and a Backbone Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Why GM's Need Common Sense and a Backbone IN> Boom Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement Re: IN> Malakim Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity IN> IN Campaigns where Angels = Good, Demons = Bad RE: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Humanity and Demons of Asmodeus IN> IN:> Eli's Angels Re: IN> IN:> Eli's Angels Re: IN> IN:> Eli's Angels Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity Re:IN> Moral Ambiguity Re:IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: Re:IN> Moral Ambiguity Re: IN> Acquiring Dissonance Conditions Re: IN> IN:> Eli's Angels IN> Please, Archangel Beth, Could You Reveal the Future? Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:49:14 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity At 17:43 -0500 12/6/99, J. Michael Smith wrote: >How many of you actually run In Nomine with Angels=Good, Demons=Bad, no >questions asked? Our games tend to have a moderate contrast, and the brightness may be a little higher than nominal for IN (i.e., we probably have more "good" demons than "bad" angels). If I recall the old IN survey right, the early IN games reported ran something like 2:1 in favor of angelic PCs, which suggests that this may be fairly common. I know it's sometimes hard to write IN stuff so that it's sufficiently ambiguous; it's *far* easier for me, at least, to see the angels as good guys and demons as bad (or at least worse than angels). I have to constantly check anything I write for IN to make sure my own biases aren't leaking into the more neutral-gray IN worldview. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:25:18 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement >take a chill pill. surely the whole point of a mailing list is so that >people can share their ideas and viewpoints. if you go shooting down people >in a snide fashion it just spoils things. i generally agree with your >opinions (including on this topic), but that doesn't mean i want to see you >being openly rude to other listees. Firm agreement. This is one of the better-mannered lists I hang out on. Let's keep it that way. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:16:09 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity > How many of you actually run In Nomine with Angels=Good, Demons=Bad, no > questions asked? The angels aren't perfect. Some of them, being celestial, get carried away. That's just the way they are. Some of them believe the ends justify the means. Some of them are charged with killing in the name of their God. Some of them aren't very nice. Even so, its important to remember that angels are first and foremost selfless beings fighting for the destiny of mankind. They are fighting based on the idea that God is right and humanity is worthwhile. Sure, Dominic may seem awful, but if he doesn't try as hard as he does, more angels Fall, become demons, and start hurting people. Sure, Uriel was a butcher, but he also got fired. Sure, David can sometimes seem needlessly cruel, but he *invented* tough love. The demons aren't perfect either, but they are all, even favorite Lilith, perfectly selfish. Demons who aren't selfish and fighting for the fate of mankind aren't very good demons. Not all demons are mean, or cruel, and some can even seem nice. But they're fighting for the idea that God is wrong, humanity is a waste of time, and angels (which they will once again be, if they win) have every right to treat the world as a playground. Nice Impudites, mean Inquisitors, and assorted other cliched archetypes are just the exceptions that prove the rule. Unless you're playing in a alternate In Nomine setting, I'd say it's a safe bet you know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. In Nomine seems to sit nicely on the "moderate contrast, moderate brightness" level, in a struggling world where Hell is just barely winning, and while Heaven has its share of right bastards, there's no doubt who the evil guys are. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 19:15:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, J. Michael Smith wrote: > How many of you actually run In Nomine with Angels=Good, Demons=Bad, no > questions asked? I personally love moral ambiguity. My angels (and > those of my players) are often callous and fight without much regard to > innocent bystanders. My demons (and those of my players) are often more > tragic than evil. Right here! Although I tend to run it more as Angels/Heaven=Good, Demons/Hell=Evil with a few exceptions. Fallen Demons tend to be Evil, while Hellborn Demons have a much greater range. Now, this doesn't mean Good=Nice or Evil=Mean. Good can come across as cruel or even heartless, while Evil can come across as caring and helpful. I find moral ambiguity boring in In Nomine, personally. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RichardGant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 19:27:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Ben Glickler wrote: > Sure, Uriel was a butcher, but he also got fired. Alternately, a case can be easily made that he was *rewarded*, not fired. Think about it: Uriel was called into the presence of his God, the goal of most religious individuals, and the destination of all who achieve their Destinies. Hell is the place of punishment, not Heaven. Richard Gant Opening a can of worms... :) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:43:30 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity > 1. Angels of Judgement frequently persecute Outcasts who help other Their dissonance requirements demand they they always, always be fair. > 4. Heaven is an aristocracy, where there is little or no freedom of > actoin, and even less ability to ask for a higher judgement on unjust > actions by your Superior. Michael, Eli, Janus and Novalis do a splendid job, I'm sure, if providing a looser atmosphere in Heaven. I'm sure it's not stifling to work for Yves or Jordi, either. You've been listening to the propoganda in Hell again, haven't you? :) > 7. Hell is the only place where a celestial can rise to the top by his > own merits In theory. In practice, things work a little differently. Sure, Hell says that a Celestial can rise to the top on his own merits, but for every Haagenti (who didn't rise on his own merits...), Nybbas, and Furfur, there are thousands upon thousands of demons who are chewed up, spitten out, and forgotten. And every time they reach the top, they do their best to crush anyone who might rise undernearth them. It's a twisted meritocracy of sorts, yes, and a brutal one. Hell also seems to have a monopoly on incompetent or stupid superiors. > 8. Malakim have a restriction which frequently demands outright murder It's not like they're killing babies or virgins. They're unable to let *evil* live. Take Hell, on the other hand. Andrealphus' people are forbidden to care for humanity. Kronos' servitors must prevent people from reaching their brightest potential. Shedim are required to make people more evil every day. Kobal's cronies must make people more miserable by laughing at them. Beleth wants people to have nightmares. Saminga wants to kill you. A lot. Malphas wants you to hate. A lot. Belial wants to set you on fire. Haagenti wants to eat you. Or make you stuff yourself to the point of agony. These aren't nice guys. They're dedicated to making your life as miserable as possible. They're dedicated to hurting you. This isn't very morally ambiguous. You may, of course, increase the excesses of Heaven in your game and decrease the evils of Hell, but at best you'll end up with a war where both sides are bad, but at least Heaven wants Celestials to just leave humanity alone. > = Matt W = Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 01:56:44 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity From: Matt W. > 1. Angels of Judgement frequently persecute Outcasts who help other > people. They persecute because they are ordered to, not because it is > good. > and so on and so on. I'm missing alot. Anyone have any more good > examples of moral ambiguity in In Nomine? > hmm. there are quite a few examples of angels acting badly, or the occasional nice demon. but surely the point is that these occasional bad things an angel might do are the kinds of things demons do *all the time*. and a demon that's being nice with no ulterior motive is a demon who may soon be in trouble with the Game (who, for that matter, are a lot nastier than the Inquisition could ever be) liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:22:33 -0600 (CST) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> Why GM's Need Common Sense and a Backbone From: David Edelstein > The following items are not permissible as weapons: Grains of salt. Strained peas. Snowflakes. Molecules. "But if I throw this molecule just right, I can split that atom and ...." BBBBBBBBBBB OOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOO MMMMM MMMMM !!!! BBB BBB OOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOO MMM MM MM MMM !!!! BB BB OOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOO MMM MM MM MMM !!!! BB BB OOO OOO OOO OOO MMM MM MM MMM !!!! BBB BBB OOO OOO OOO OOO MMM MM MM MMM !!!! BBBBBBBBBBB OOO OOO OOO OOO MMM MMM MMM !!!! BBBBBBBBBBB OOO OOO OOO OOO MMM MMM !!!! BBB BBB OOO OOO OOO OOO MMM MMM !!!! BB BB OOO OOO OOO OOO MMM MMM !! BB BB OOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOO MMM MMM !! BBB BBB OOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOO MMM MMM BBBBBBBBBBB OOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOO MMM MMM [] Of course, that's with a CD of 6 :-) Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 01:54:03 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity From: Richard Gant > Alternately, a case can be easily made that he was *rewarded*, not fired. > Think about it: Uriel was called into the presence of his God, the goal > of most religious individuals, and the destination of all who achieve > their Destinies. Hell is the place of punishment, not Heaven. but hell isn't a place of punishment in the IN universe. it's not there to punish sinners. they're just drawn there by their own selfish natures. lucifer and his rebels weren't exiled to hell, they fled there because "it seemed the right place to be". people who betray their inner nature (their detiny for mortals, their resonance for celestials) end up in hell, but it's not a direct punishment from good. it's just like how heavy things sink to the bottom. uriel neither fell nor was punished because he at no point betrayed his resonance or his word. while his actions were objectionable to many, he always believed he was doing the right thing for heaven and humanity. like any good malakite, he saw the threat and did his best to remove it. people can question his judgement, but not his loyalty. liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 19:28:17 -0700 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Why GM's Need Common Sense and a Backbone At 07:22 PM 12/6/99 -0600, you wrote: >BBBBBBBBBBB OOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOO MMM MMM [] Pet peeve #5. (I think this is in the FAQ too.) ASCII art is NOT kosher. Period. End of question. Thanks. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:54:14 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Boom >ASCII art is NOT kosher. Period. End of question. I have to say, that was one of the more creative uses of it I've seen. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 22:04:53 -0500 From: Dan Weaver Subject: Re: IN> The Humanity Attunement > (And then there was the 666 to Lying that a certain demon got in a game, > when she told the Ofanite of Revelation she was human, yes, really. And > until Eli showed up (on a 111), she _WAS_. Ewwwwwwwww.) Now THERE'S a nice Infernal Intervention. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 21:57:33 -0500 From: Dan Weaver Subject: Re: IN> Malakim If you think giving Creation Malakites the ability to kill with ice cream is a bad idea, then take a 'mundane' approach to their ability. Assume that they simply have the ability to look around their immediate surroundings and find something that could make a really effective weapon. For an instance of this approach, suppose Rudy the Malakite of Creation attacks a Soldier of Hell in the bathroom and uses his attunement to procure a weapon. If he was a Slapstick Malakite, he'd dip a towel in the toilet and use it to snap the Soldier to death. If you decide to run Eli's Malakim seriously, Rudy slits the Soldier's throat with a shaving razor or throws a handful of Drano in his eyes. A lot of ordinary objects can be deadly weapons, given enough skill and CREATIVITY. After all, the average Malakite's Strength will be much greater than that of an average human (Strength 6 is excellent for a human and most Malakim will be Strength-biased) so Malakim can pick up a lot of heavy objects and swing them around fairly easily. Anything that isn't bolted down securely is fair game for a Malakite to use as a weapon, and even then he or she will be able to rip things off their fastenings quite often. Think furniture, mail and newspaper boxes, cash registers, heavy computer equipment, and trash cans. A Malakite can easily rip the chain off a bike or the antenna off a car, both of which make great weapons. The bottom line is that the improvised weaponry does not have to be small-scale by any means. You can be crushed by a La-Z-Boy just as well as you can be smacked with a plate. Dan P.S. It doesn't matter whether Rudy tried to garrote the Soldier with toilet paper - Rudy shall overcome. P.P.S. Death by La-Z-Boy. I love Malakim of Creation! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:11:05 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity In a message dated 12/6/99 6:29:00 PM Central Standard Time, gantr@NKU.EDU writes: << Alternately, a case can be easily made that he was *rewarded*, not fired. Think about it: Uriel was called into the presence of his God, the goal of most religious individuals, and the destination of all who achieve their Destinies. Hell is the place of punishment, not Heaven. >> Actually, Hell isn't a place of punishment. They mention that in Heaven & Hell. If it were a place of punishment it would be the enforcement arm of Heaven. It's just were you go if you're bad. Sure, you're used and degraded and treated like dog poo, but that's not punishment. You're just fair game, that's all. I'm sure there are human souls living in Hades and Shal-Mari who have not been hurt in centuries. They've learned to keep their heads down. Rev. Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 23:49:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Richard Gant Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity On Mon, 6 Dec 1999 BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > Actually, Hell isn't a place of punishment. They mention that in Heaven & > Hell. If it were a place of punishment it would be the enforcement arm of > Heaven. It's just were you go if you're bad. Sure, you're used and degraded > and treated like dog poo, but that's not punishment. You're just fair game, > that's all. All right, all right! I apologize! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to imply that IN Hell was a place of punishment! Forgive me! :) Seriously, I guess I should have phrased my Uriel thing a little better... I hope everyone got the point, though. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656/ The Returners Final Fantasy Role-Playing Game Site: http://returners.simplenet.com/ or http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/5758/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 20:33:23 PST From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> IN Campaigns where Angels = Good, Demons = Bad Me, for example. And I prefer to play in such campaigns as well. I agree with the person who said that a strong moral differentiation makes roleplaying more interesting, not less so. If you're a person who doesn't care what you do or what anyone else does, where's the opportunity for conflict or drama? That's why I end up playing Malakim, paladins, assassins with strong codes of honor, and lawful good vampires. Janet Anderson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:16:50 -0600 From: "Trent" Subject: RE: IN> Moral Ambiguity "6. Heaven supported the divine right of kings for an ungodly amount of time (see Superiors 1: Laurence's Failures), even when it came to supporting evil tyrants." That's not fair Janus only supported 'm when they were revolutionary. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 03:39:08 -0500 From: Ehrbar Subject: Re: IN> Humanity and Demons of Asmodeus From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Humanity and Demons of Asmodeus > At 10:22 PM -0500 12/5/99, Ehrbar wrote: > >Here's my interpretation of what the SJ/Beth/Canon ruling means: > > > >1) No resonance, song, or attunement will directly reveal [...] > >2) No resonance, song, or attunement will directly reveal [...] > >3) A resonance, song, or attunement may indirectly reveal a fact that > >is inconsistent with the demon being a normal human. Enough damage [...] > Yes. (Possession is a sticky case -- it's a pretty direct case of > resonance, actually!) Well, the Kyrio doesn't find out that it's a high-Force "human" by his resonance directly, but by counting his Forces available for other posessions after a successful use of the resonance. Shedim, since they can't try to posess multiple targets, and those using the Songs of Posession, wouldn't find out that it's a high-Force "human". And a demon using Humanity who manages to get posessed by a Kyrio was either really unlucky -- or he blew his own cover by his actions anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:06:18 CST From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: IN> IN:> Eli's Angels I've got a question that I haven't been able to answer by looking through my books, or the Errata. Anyone happen to know the answer? Do Angels of Creation in service to any other Superior, get the choir attunement for that Archangel automatically? Or do they have to earn it? Wade Habbalite of Technology, Demon of Telemarketers ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:39:08 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> IN:> Eli's Angels Have to earn them but have an excuse to buy them, even at character creation. They don't have a dissidence condition from Eli or their temporary Superior. This means that they have one hell of a time getting rewards, but it means they have two potential sources of them. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:36:40 -0600 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: IN> IN:> Eli's Angels - -----Original Message----- From: Tim Groth To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 12:43 PM Subject: Re: IN> IN:> Eli's Angels >Have to earn them but have an excuse to buy them, even at character >creation. They don't have a dissidence condition from Eli or their >temporary Superior. This means that they have one hell of a time getting >rewards, but it means they have two potential sources of them. Isn't serving Eli itself a dissidence condition? J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:41:52 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity J. Michael Smith wrote: > > How many of you actually run In Nomine with Angels=Good, Demons=Bad, no > questions asked? That's basically how I ran my campaign -- angels were capital-H Holy, and demons stood in opposition to the will of a benevolent God. One of the ideas I was out to play with was to explore the difference between the Good and the human. In canon IN, these two ideas are (intentionally) conflated; what's good for humans is also what is Good in the platonic sense. I didn't want to do that. The idea of original sin -- the idea that perfect justice is not compatible with the human condition as it stands -- is one of the neatest ideas in Christian theology. It yields too many ideas that are fun to play with in a game. For example: how much trust can a person stand before he breaks? Suppose you had a very close friend who was a painter, and he showed you what he thought was his masterwork and asked you your assessment of it. Most people would be both honored and humbled by such a request, and put a lot of care into shaping a response that was thoughtful, honest and respectful of his desire to better his art, without being cruel or doing violence to his aspirations. It's the sort of reward for friendship that's also extremely hard work. Now imagine that the society of angels is one in which everyone is this open /all the time to everyone/. Undoubtedly, this would make for a society in which everyone brings out the best in everyone else, but it comes with an enormous burden of responsibility. Could an ordinary human bear such a weight for very long? I know I couldn't; even the thought of spending a single day in a place like that fills me with dread -- I am not a fit citizen of Utopia. [*] It was exactly the fact that the angels were better and more just than mankind that made them terrifying to be around. I felt this was appropriate, because terror and the divine have traditionally gone hand-in-hand. (Angels could still make mistakes and disagree about the best course of action; but their motives were almost always good and rarely tainted by self-serving rationalizations.) It's hard for a person to *relax* around an angel, for even the most-spoken Mercurian of Novalis is the sort of character who can lie down in front of a tank and sing spirituals while crushed by the treads. Demons, on the other hand, typically acted in very human ways. (Though of course the demons claimed that fallen humans were imitating fallen angels rather than the other way around.) Their motives -- greed, self-preservation, pride, lust, and so on -- were fundamentally the same as those of mankind, and that's why the Dark was so seductive. They were flawed and therefore more comprehensible, which made it easier for humans (hopefully including the players) to empathize with them. Look at it from a literary perspective -- who is more interesting, Michael or Lucifer? Lucifer: leader of the fallen angels, who had the charisma to convince a third of the Host and the courage to actually fight against an omnipotent God. Dramatically, he's fascinating -- the tension between the virtues he must have to lead the legions of the damned and the flaws that led him to rebel give considerable internal tension, and the struggle against God is a story with powerful external tension. Now Michael: leader of the loyal angels and invincible champion of God. There's no *drama* here -- he doesn't waver in his faith (no internal dramatic tension) and he can't lose to the rebels because he literally has God on his side (no external dramatic tension). Since the stories humans tell reveal the human character, it's easy to see why demons (who superficially have a much harder sell than angels) can do well. > I personally love moral ambiguity. My angels (and those of my > players) are often callous and fight without much regard to innocent > bystanders. My demons (and those of my players) are often more > tragic than evil. I've certainly seen a fair share of "good" demons > too (particularly Impudites, Lilim, some Calabim) A lot of the time, > they just want to be left alone. Heh -- the only demon who redeemed imc was a Shedite of Fate. This was partly *because* the moral choice it faced was just a lot starker than that of a Lilim or Impudite (who can pretty easily convince themselves that they're not doing anything really wrong). [*] This makes Nybbas suddenly look very attractive, doesn't it? People can speak, but it will have no weight -- there are no worries that their words actually mean anything. There is just the spectacle, pure and free of the crushing burden of meaning. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:29:33 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Re: IN> Moral Ambiguity >and so on and so on. I'm missing alot. Anyone have any more good >examples of moral ambiguity in In Nomine? The best example I can find off the top of my head is in "The Demonic Mind" page 17 of IPG. And I quote: "There are circumstances under which even angels will do terrible things. They will lie, cheat, steal and murder. Yet this does not make them demons. And there are times in which even demons will act with kindess and mercy. They will uphold vows, reward good intentions and encourage humans toward the highest aspirations of which they are capeable. Yet this does not make them angels." "Were Demons mindless agents of Evil, they wouldn't be half as interesting as they are - and In Nomine would not have Demonic playing characters. " So hah. If that's not moral ambiguity, I'll do something which I haven't thought of yet. Kris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:29:34 +1100 From: bichwa@telstra.easymail.com.au Subject: Re:IN> Moral Ambiguity I have been lurking on this list for a few weeks now. Welcome. >I must say, I have found some pretty interesting ideas and just plain old reminders >for In Nomine. That's what its' here for. >How many of you actually run In Nomine with Angels=Good, Demons=Bad, no >questions asked? I have, but then I've also played in a game which was backwards. By that I mean that Lucifer was right, the peace party are ineffective fools, the war party are psychotic end-justifies-means, Judgement is more like oppression (not that different so far is it?), and the Demons are rebel fighters against the tyranny of heaven, who've been heavily propogandised against. And stuff like that. It was fun, but strange, and a bit disturbing. >I personally love moral ambiguity. My angels (and those of my players) are often callous and fight without much regard to innocent bystanders. My demons (and those of my players) are often more tragic than evil. Have you seen INS/MV? You might like it. It sounds a bit familiar. I've certainly seen a fair share of "good" demons too (particularly Impudites, Lilim, some Calabim) Impudites and Lillim, I can see, but Calabim? . >A lot of the time, they just want to be left alone. This sounds very Djinn. >This isn't to say that I don't have angels of pure goodness, or demons of pure evil, but given any one angel and one demon, it isn't entirely obvious that the angel is the good guy. Very INS/MV >Well, there's more I could say, but it would just be disorganized >rambling, so I'll leave it at that. Ah, but disorganised rambling is fun. Keep it up, and Tim Groth might even give you a rite... I'll sleep soon, I promise. Kris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:50:03 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re:IN> Moral Ambiguity [snip] >Impudites and Lillim, I can see, but Calabim? . [snip] Habalah and Shedim have little in the way of redeeming qualities because of their band natures, they simply aren't nice and degrade humans by their very nature. Balseraphs tend to have a Seraph like attitude of being 'above' corporeal matters, especially humans. Since they can twist a human's mind like putty they tend to be jack asses when it comes to humans (and other demons, and angels, and everything else in creation that can't stomp on them). Djinn just don't care, and if they do they hide it too well to be nice. Calabim don't have a band nature or resonance that makes them inherintly nasty folk (they like breaking things, but so do many humans). Also they can be very wry and particularly biting to other demons (their comment on the Shedim is rather humerous and gives insight into the often underestimated intelligence of the Calabim). Since they aren't inherintly schmucks their is the potential for them getting along with people, especially people who share a love for destroying things with Calabim. I'd imagine the more intelligent members of the band like comedy that deals with the break down of modern society, and would get along with humans who share this. They may not be the majority but they don't have a nature precluding being friendly. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 14:03:10 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: Re:IN> Moral Ambiguity > Calabim don't have a band nature or resonance that makes them inherintly > nasty folk (they like breaking things, but so do many humans). Also they The Infernal Player's Guide says they love to break valuable things. Wouldn't this include humanity? (squishy, squishy) > schmucks their is the potential for them getting along with people, The main book writes 'em up as the biggest Lucifer-worshippers. > Timothy, Angel of Rambling I agree -- any demon can become "good", since any demon can redeem. Even Shedim. It's just easier and more comfortable for them to be nasty. A Calabite is in his happy place when he's breaking things. How long could he put off feeling happy before he broke a human he was involved with? [ conversation change ] Belial's servants are forbidden to be "burned by their own fires", metaphorically and literally. If a Calabite of Fire was forced to suck up a point of dissonance due to a failed resonance check, would he get ANOTHER point of dissonance due to his Fire dissonance requirements? Ben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:27:00 -0500 From: Adam Canning Subject: Re: IN> Acquiring Dissonance Conditions Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:07:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy >At 1:17 PM -0800 12/1/99, David Barr wrote: >By the same token, is it possible (in cannon) (Canon. Cannon are big guns. Canon is the body of literature considered official. IIRC the definition right.) Good enough for this forum. >>to give a character another choir or bands Dissonance conditions? >Generally, only via Discord or the Destiny Master Distinction, which >also gives resonance. In canon. In your own game, do what you will... Balseraph of Fate. One of Lucifer's Gifts [though becoming a calabite may remove your current resonance] Presumably the mythical Archangel of Confusion's attainment would give angels a bands dissonance condition in addition to their resonance. Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 15:35:14 CST From: "Wade Hursman" Subject: Re: IN> IN:> Eli's Angels >Isn't serving Eli itself a dissidence condition? > >J. Michael Neal Nope, main rulebook says that Eli has no specific Dissonance requirements. Only the Choir dissonance. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:57:35 -0800 From: "Glenn D. Brown" Subject: IN> Please, Archangel Beth, Could You Reveal the Future? Okay, I know the future is Ineffable, and I don't know how far in the future SJG has finalized its plans for the Superiors series of books. But is there any information publicly available on which Superiors are likely to be expanded on in 2000, and maybe in 2001, as well? Or, at least, how many Superiors books SJG plans to produce in the next couple of years? I know that Superiors Three is in playtesting, but alas, I don't yet have a Pyramid subscription. This information would help me when planning my metaplot. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:25:49 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 At 12:54 PM +0000 12/6/99, Uncle Wolf wrote: >One other question about S1: Who let KK out of her cage? We can all blame David E. for that. . . The good news is that now she's in NPC land, we need not fear her being a PC. . . The bad news, she's still a one trick pony. . . (Personally, I think KK should forever remain in Beth's hands. . . We know she can play KK to the hilt, without making us groan _too_ much. O};;;> ) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:35:56 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 Um for us ignorant folk what does KK refer to? My local store doesn't have a large In-Nomine selection so I have to wait for Christmas for Superiors 1 and the GMG, and am thus incredibly frustrated but I'll live. Anyway who is KK? Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 17:34:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 KK is a character made up by Beth. She's a Lilim of Dark Humor whose specialty is getting killed by Malakim, in cheap throw-away vessels, thus getting geases on Malakim by satisfying their Need to kill demons. I forget what KK stands for, if anything. Kami Kaze? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:47:58 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 OIC, cool. I think I've read the character on-line. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:50:39 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 At 3:35 PM -0700 12/7/99, Tim Groth wrote: >Anyway who is KK? A PC that Elizabeth McCoy came up with. . . Perfectly legal (with the exception of maybe her gaining infinite vessels). But was so _twinkish_ in that she was majorly min-maxed, that she should not be allowed in any sane person's game. (Her Stichkt was to read the Need in Malakim to kill her, and she'd let them. . . Quite creatively. Then when she woke up from Trauma, she'd have usually a BIG hook in several Blackwings. . .) Be seeing you, - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centurytel.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur * http://home.centurytel.net/shdwstar/in-nomine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:43:33 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 >KK is a character made up by Beth. She's a Lilim of Dark Humor >whose specialty is getting killed by Malakim, in cheap throw-away >vessels, thus getting geases on Malakim by satisfying their >Need to kill demons. Cute. But one imagines that word would get around after a while. And there are obvious ways to deal with a character like that without killing her... right away, anyhow. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:31:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Request errata for Superiours 1 At 12:54 PM +0000 12/6/99, Uncle Wolf wrote: >One other question about S1: Who let KK out of her cage? Laurence's author, and it's not clear if it's _KK_ -- or simply a riff on the "KK trick." Not like she's got it patented. (And it rather firmly inserts the useful notion that KK-type beings should be _NPCs_! Which I firmly agree with.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1451 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.