From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 13 16:38:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27377 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:38:13 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA14493 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:34:06 -0600 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:34:06 -0600 Message-Id: <199912132234.QAA14493@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1458 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 13 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1458 In this digest: IN> How about this? -- Bright Shedim: the Ditherers Re: IN> Ethereal AI's and cyberspace in the Far Marches Re: IN> The 'Primal' Angels IN> Shedim possession of a PC Re: IN> Shedim possession of a PC Re: IN> Shedim possession of a PC Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions Re: IN> Ethereal AI's and cyberspace in the Far Marches Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> IN:> Campaign Ideas Re: IN> Shedim possession of a PC Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1457 Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions IN> Possible Tether Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> Shedim possession of a PC Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine RE: IN> Shedim possession of a PC Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> Possible Tether Re: IN> Possible Tether Re: IN> Possible Tether Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:04:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> How about this? -- Bright Shedim: the Ditherers A Shedite must corrupt their host a little every day they are on Earth, or incur dissonance. But can they play "Two steps forward, one step back"? For instance -- A repentant Shedite seduces its host into committing petty larceny, then convicts the guy of his sins and leads him to put the pen back in the dimestore and write "Thou shalt not steal" one hundred times at his desk at work (with his own pencil). The Shedite makes the host snap at someone, then has them go back and profusely apologize. The Shedite locates an overweight host and begins "seducing" her into anorexia, this giving itself several weeks of safe time in which to work on her tendency toward wrath. After that, it swaps around and starts "seducing" her back toward gluttony and working on her self-esteem. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:07:44 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AI's and cyberspace in the Far Marches Perry Lloyd wrote: > So far, in canon, there exist primal spirits of Fire, Lightning, Rain, > Storms, Snow, Wind, Stone, Jewels, Gold, Water, Animals, Plants, > Moon, and Sun. Unless this list is complete, perhaps Gold and Jewels are merely among the Primals that particularly attract human NOTICE. The primal spirit of nickle just doesn't get as much press. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:11:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The 'Primal' Angels Jason Schneiderman wrote: > It had occured to me that, in Celestial, words like these most > accurately translate into "The Qualities that Humans Associate > with " rather than just "". The Archangels that we see > represented in the course of the game are actually founded upon > human perceptions - this is why they can adopt human vessels and > need to promote their Words. Since the "Primal" or Elemental Archangels are all much older than humanity, I'd read this as saying the way they have expanded and developed their Words has involved interplay with human concepts. (And remember it's an interplay. Is Flowers a peaceful word because humans associate flowers with peace? or do we associate flowers with peace because Novalis is a peaceful angel and that's the way she pushed for her Word to come across to us? Or some of both?) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:28:25 PST From: "Miles 2 Go" Subject: IN> Shedim possession of a PC Ok, the whole issue of is a human possessed in control or is the Shedim is deliberately blurred in the rules. The answer is they both are. Which works out pretty good for NPCs. However, one of my player characters is now possessed so any advice on how to handle this? I don't believe Shedim normally roll for each and every action they take, but merely calling up and talking to other demons would be betraying the human's angel associates. I think betrayal is a corrupting act. The Shedim in question has been stalled for several days by the PCs and decided to take things into its own slimy tentacles, but I didn't think through the how to GM it issue. Oh, and the angels already know the Shedim is there. Seraphs of Yves are obnoxious that way. So there will probably be a fight soon. Should be interesting. Advice sought, Tim ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:40:18 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim possession of a PC >However, one of my player characters is now >possessed so any advice on how to handle this? This is the classic 'voice of temptation' scenario. I'd get the player to talk through his thoughts, and play the Shedite as always trying to influence him toward the dark side. (Remember all those film sequences where someone has an angel on one shoulder and a demon on another?) It's easier for the demon if it doesn't have to make Will rolls, so it'll tend to try to work with the host's natural tendencies, or convince the host that the act/ betrayal is really in his and everyone else's best interests. I'd also be tempted to tell the player that he has no way of telling which (if any) of these internal 'voices' are his real self :) The Shedite might also be able to get the host to go to an infernal tether without realising, just by pointing him at it without telling him what it is. If the demon is actually in danger, it probably could start making Will rolls to turn the PC into its puppet (but you probably want to avoid this since most players hate being puppets, in my experience.) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:29:53 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> Shedim possession of a PC I generally think that the Shedite has two options when in a host, being a passanger and being the driver. When the passanger the person goes about their normal routines, modified by anything the Shedite has done to them. During this time the Shedite is getting a feel for where they can spread evil, looking for oppertunities, maybe tweaking memories. Basicly the Shedite is not doing much, maybe subtly pushing them every now and then if their going somewhere that the Shedite doesn't want to go. If they want to force something drastic (like their daily corruption) they make the roll and the individual is forced into the action and then rationalizes it and it becomes normal to them. When in the drivers seat the individual is pushed to the back and has no control, the body twists in unnatural ways to show that a Shedite is in charge. The demon can do as they please, but the person thinks their dreaming and thus no matter what the demon does with the body the person's soul isn't corrupted by it. Generally to go into driver's mode I require a resonance roll (if an important NPC or PC is the host). So when possesed a PC will feel occasional urges they just can't fight, and they'll seem perfectly natural when they perform the actions (they also may have their memories messed up). Occasionally they'll enter a dream like state where they notice their doing odd things, and moving in strange ways. I'd also imagine that after being contored like a Shedite one would be rather sore when put back in active control. If anything I said makes no sense keep in mind I've been up since 6AM and just took a biology final. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:14:44 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions nukenin@concentric.net wrote: > > great game! :-D > > questions... > > 1) can the undead repent, and if so, what happens? Not much, actually. When they die, they still go *pfffft!* Truly tragic... > > 2) does a Jordi kyrio gain any dissonance if members of his swarm get > squished? would the corporeal song of healing help? would the corporeal > song of form give you a bunch of *very* swat-resistant flies? would the > celestial song of form let you change one bug type to another (ants to > scorpions, for example)? can you use a numinous corpus with a swarm? As long as you heal up the swarm, you are okay with dissonance. Yes. Not exactly. and GM's call, but I'd allow most with modifications based on the size of the vessels. - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:13:27 -0600 From: "Dennis Groome V" Subject: Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions - -Dennis Groome V / "Amo Nympham" http://evm-gamers.freeservers.com ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming, 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me." -Stabbing Westward, ACF > > questions... > > 1) can the undead repent, and if so, what happens? well, a Zombi wouldn't have enough of a brain, a Vampire would still have that nasty Need, but a Mummy wouldn't have any problem repenting...except that all Undead have that pesky problem of all their Forces are bound to their corporeal body. So they can do good deeds and be good people, but when they die their forces will disband instead of moving on to the Celestial plane. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 09:16:09 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions >> 2) does a Jordi kyrio gain any dissonance if members of his swarm get >> squished? would the corporeal song of healing help? would the corporeal >> song of form give you a bunch of *very* swat-resistant flies? would the >> celestial song of form let you change one bug type to another (ants to >> scorpions, for example)? can you use a numinous corpus with a swarm? Hmm most numinous corpus would be kinda useless, but acid could work. A swarm could totally surround someone and then start dissolving them. I think a more frightening use for the Celestial Song of Form would be to increase the size of the swarm members (it would be definetly creepy). Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:44:32 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions ><< 1) can the undead repent, and if so, what happens? > > >According to the Corporeal Players Guide(CPG), the repentant undead is >possible, albiet very tragic. >Even an Archangel can't undo the damage done to them. So no matter how good >they are, no matter how completely they fulfill their destiny, they still >receive oblivion when they die. In my campaigns, the Undead can repent. Archangels can remove any Discord they have and can realign them with Heaven. HOWEVER, Laurence doesn't really approve too heartily of it and so these reformed undead are usually paired with a angel to keep and eye on them. Their souls cannot be saved, at least not in terms of the after-life. But, because they are immortal, they can live as long (in theory) as angels. So long as they don't get theselves killed. One idea I've been toying with is making it exceedingly hard to slay the undead. Because their souls are meshed with their Corporeal forms, then once they lose all of their Body hits, then damage goes towards their Soul hits, making them tougher to kill. I've even been considering making it so that you have to shred their forces one by one, as in Celestial combat, making them still harder to kill. If they lose all their Ethe forces, they're mindless, but, hey. If they lose all their Corporeal Forces, because their Soul is now part of their Body, they don't disappear from the Corporeal plane (for these purposes, their Celestial forces act like Corporeal forces), but they lose all Strength and Agility, making it *very* easy to kill them. (Barring their use of Songs.) Though, of course, this would mean that a six force Mummy with Corp 2, Str 4, Vessel/2 has body Hits 16-8 and with Cele 2, Will 4, soul Hits 8, that means that they can take a max total of . . . lesse 16+8+(5x8)+4(Soul hits afterr first Celestial force is Stripped) 36+40=76 points of damage total, unless their Celestial Forces aren't stripped away last. This can put them at a much bigger advantage when battling Celestials. Of course, the lose their forces and it starts to suck *real* fast. :) But it gives them a *bit* more of a fighting chance. Add levels of Toughness to that, and, well . . . Also, the Undead may improve their Stats and add forces with character points, as well as raise Vessel level, just like other immortal beings. This makes it possible for the Undead to rise in power over the years, and not just in terms of money, politics, or skills and songs. I'll also allow my Undead to purchase Toughness (Night Music (NM), CPG) and Blessed (CPG) I also allow for the taking of Discord/Disadvantages to give the more points to spend on powers: Vulnerability: Holy Water Vulnerability: Naturally Running Water Vulnerability: Sunlight Vulnerability: Fire Vulnerability: Wood Vulnerability: Wooden Stake Through the Heart Fear: Sunlight Fear: Fire Fear: Holy Artifacts Anger Pallid Need: Blood/Sex/Violence/Whatever Nocturnal (LReliquarum, CPG) Stink (NM, CPG) Guilt (NM, CPG) Cold-Blooded (Infernal Player's Guide (IPG)) Unnerving Stare (Angelic Player's Guide (APG)) Casts No Reflection (Corp) (For every level of this Discord, there is the possiblity that the undead will cast no reflection. Roll 1d6 per reflective surface when necessary (ie when there's a chance someone will notice), if you roll under or equal to, no reflection has been cast.) And, the undead can pick up more Discord/Disadvantages if they fail to fullfill their needs. Well, those are some ideas. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten" - --Anthony Robbins ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:45:26 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal AI's and cyberspace in the Far Marches >Perry Lloyd wrote: > > > So far, in canon, there exist primal spirits of Fire, Lightning, Rain, > > Storms, Snow, Wind, Stone, Jewels, Gold, Water, Animals, Plants, > > Moon, and Sun. > >Unless this list is complete, perhaps Gold and Jewels are merely >among the Primals that particularly attract human NOTICE. The >primal spirit of nickle just doesn't get as much press. Good point. :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 08:51:23 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After >Perry Lloyd > >Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >> > >>Yes, I think Hell, as well as Heaven, can be divided into War and > >>Peace parties. The difference is that, in Heaven, War vs. Peace > >>is approximately Justice vs. Mercy, while in Hell, War vs. Peace > >>is approximately Destruction vs. Corruption. > > > >So, why would the ultimate battle between Heaven and Hell be the > >end of Creation? Or is that only if HEAVEN wins? > >The Revelation of St. John the Divine, Chapter 21: > 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and > the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. > 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God > out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. > 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the > tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and > they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and > be their God. > 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall > be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there > be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. > 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things > new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and > faithful. > >If you are doing an approximately Christian IN, then it's pretty clear >that God hsa promised to destroy the world and replace it with a >better one at the end of time. IMC, this was one of the reasons Janus >favored the war party in Heaven -- the promise of renewal of the world >was pretty much exactly what he wanted. End of creation, or a new recreation? Book of Revelations pretty much speaks of the demons' total loss of their own creation, and its replacement by New Jerusalem. I really like that Janus idea of yours. :) Fitting. I find it hard NOT to do a Christian IN, especially after reading the original INS/MV upon which the game is based. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:22:24 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> IN:> Campaign Ideas At 13:49 -0500 12/12/99, Wade Hursman wrote: >I'm about to start an In Nomine campaign based in Denver, and need some help >figuring out what Surperiors have interests there. Does anyone have any >ideas? Not all precisely in Denver, but not too far away: - - NORAD headquarters (Chyenne Mountain): probably of interest to Malphas (at least during the Cold War), and probably Baal and Laurence. - - US Air Force Academy: Laurence, probably - - WWV (the timebase radio station): may be interesting to Kronos, but only secondarily, through his preoccupation with time. - - Hewlett-Packard: I seem to recall that HP started out in the Denver area somewhere, and still has major facilities there, I believe. Almost certainly a Lightning interest. I think there's also a big NOAA facility in the area (Boulder?), which is likely to be of interest to Jean and Vapula, and maybe Janus. If I recall right, Denver is also amazingly prone to smog, so Vapula may have a hand in that. Though very long ago, I recall that the entire Colorado plateau was formed from lava flows, so Gabriel may have some slight interest in the area. I don't remember if there's any geothermal activity near Denver; obviously there is up at Yellowstone. I believe the mountains in the area are volcanic in origin, though not active in recent times. The long, straight roads eastward, and the twisty little mountain roads to the west, make ideal racing areas for Theft and the Wind, though there may not be anything of direct interest to those Superiors in the area. All the ranching in the area, as well as the incursions of human construction into mountain habitats, probably draw some interest from Jordi. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:41:37 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Shedim possession of a PC At 10:28 -0500 12/13/99, Miles 2 Go wrote: > Ok, the whole issue of is a human possessed in control or is the Shedim is >deliberately blurred in the rules. The answer is they both are. Actually, the way I read it, the Shedite is in active control, but the human *thinks* he's doing it all. The only time this fails is when the demon tries something too offensive, and the human rebels successfully. > Which >works out pretty good for NPCs. However, one of my player characters is now >possessed so any advice on how to handle this? That's very tricky. Normally, I'd take the player aside and give him a quick rundown on what the Shedite is trying to accomplish with the PC, and let the player actually play the demon, with occasional notes regarding specific actions you want to have the Shedite take. A lot of players (myself included) will take exception to GM control of their character, but are perfectly happy abusing the PC *themselves*. (Hmmm... maybe all players are Shedim at heart....) > I don't believe Shedim >normally roll for each and every action they take, but merely calling up and >talking to other demons would be betraying the human's angel associates. I >think betrayal is a corrupting act. If the human is a Soldier, and knows about demons, I'd say you're right -- he should have every chance to rebel against such an action. (In this case, if he knows that Shedim exist, I might even give him a bonus to realize what's going on and fight back with a bonus to Will.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:51:25 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions From: > > 1) can the undead repent, and if so, what happens? They can, but it does them no good. Because each undead's forces simply disperse if they are killed, the best (and just about the only) thing a repentant undead can hope for is oblivion. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:16:47 -0500 From: "J. Michael Smith" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1457 > Perry Lloyd > >Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >> > >>Yes, I think Hell, as well as Heaven, can be divided into War and > >>Peace parties. The difference is that, in Heaven, War vs. Peace > >>is approximately Justice vs. Mercy, while in Hell, War vs. Peace > >>is approximately Destruction vs. Corruption. > > > >So, why would the ultimate battle between Heaven and Hell be the > >end of Creation? Or is that only if HEAVEN wins? Creation could just be destroyed by the sheer destructive power of the War, as well. The best analogy is a full scale war between global nuclear powers. Neither side really wants to do that much damage, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. That brings me to a question though: Exactly how powerful are Heaven and Hell as complete entities? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:25:58 -0500 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Perry Lloyd wrote: > > I find it hard NOT to do a Christian IN, especially after reading the > original INS/MV upon which the game is based. I'd love to do this, but my French sucks. Care to give us a comparison? Doctor TOC P.S. Hi folks, I'm back! - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:19:03 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> a coupla (odd?) questions >In my campaigns, the Undead can repent. Archangels can remove any Discord >they have and can realign them with Heaven. HOWEVER, Laurence doesn't >really approve too heartily of it and so these reformed undead are usually >paired with a angel to keep and eye on them. [major snipping] Neat ideas, you could also use a variation of something that appeared in a campeign I played in. Some of the gods assosiated with the undead had an attunement for them that made their physical body have to be totally destroyed to actually kill them. Sort of burning them, droping them in acid, etc you merely had a corpse that would come back to life. Another thing one can do is have Archangels grant them very high level vessels (above 6). This would allow them to survive a much greater beating. Also you mention that some of your modifications would make the Undead too tough in celestial combat, however I was under the impression the Undead couldn't enter into celestial combat because they didn't have a celestial form. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:53:39 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: IN> Possible Tether I just accidentally sent this on to the INWO list. Whoops. Apologies if anyone got stuck reading it twice. As I procrastinate working on my final project for theatre history, a possible tether springs to mind, one that could, conceivably, be linked to any (or all) of three Superiors: The Globe Theatre, in London. Now granted, we're on Globe Three at this point, and it isn't even were Globe One stood. However, the potency of the idea behind the Globe might be strong enough to make it a tether. My thoughts: Marc: Sounds odd, but in 1576, Richard Burbage build The Theatre, just north of London, which was the first commercial theatrical establishment in the West. In 1599, when he got into a dispute with the landlord, Burbage and pals, Shakespeare included, disassembled The Theatre in the night, moved it across the London Bridge, and built into the Globe, using the same timbers. The fact that Shakespeare's work was tremendously popular and frequently patronized by Elizabeth I would help make this a (relatively minor) tether of Marc. Yves: "What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god" (Hamlet, II.2.303-6). Shakespeare's work continues to inspire and illuminate, which would indicate Yves. Gabriel: "O for a muse of fire, that would ascend / The brightest heaven of invention." The inspiration behind Shakespeare, the divine spark might point to Gabriel. Plus, if you consider that Globe One was destroyed during a performance of Henrvy VIII, when cannons in the huts caught the thatch roof on fire and burnt it to the ground, it could be a Belial-fired plot. Thoughts? G ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:00:22 -0500 From: neelk@cswcasa.com Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >Neel (neelk@cswcasa.com) wrote: > >> If anything, the Shedite is in a better moral position, because it is >> forced to spread evil under duress. > >It's rather like the "better moral position" humanity is in >due to Original Sin. We didn't ASK to have these fault-lines in >our souls, but we have them, and the are real faults. Certainly; a madman setting to an orphanage is a real danger even if he is not fully responsible for his actions. >And we are not sorry about them in ourselves nearly as often as >we are about them in each other. That's actually one of the reasons I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't want to deny the possibility of human evil, so I want to leave open the question of how much of the corruption the Shedim do is their fault, and how much is simply revealing what the person they inhabited is capable of. >Which brings up another point about Shedim. How many of them REGRET >corrupting their hosts? If a Shedite didn't WANT to corrupt people, >it would presumably stay in Hell, or ooze out into the Marches and >make a dash for Blandine's Tower to defect, or something. It depends on how you run them, I guess. IMC, they were released to Earth only very sparingly. The out-of-game reason is that it was frustrating for players to have to deal with an enemy that can easily shift between bodies and read the memories and plans of their allies. Stopping a Shedite permanently is an exercise in frustration if the PCs don't have exactly the right skill set. The in-game rationale for their limited use was that releasing Shedim to Earth was considered risky by the Demon Princes. There was a significant risk that the selfishness that made them demons could be overcome, since a Shedite pretty much had to live cheek-by-jowl in the mind of another person. As a result they tended only to be used on Earth when their powers were critical to the Prince's plans. The actual personalities of the Shedim varied quite a bit, of course. They made interesting NPCs, since they could posess someone close to the PCs in order to talk to them without risking a firefight breaking out. It's a very tense situation. One of my favorites was inspired by a post on a newsgroup by Mary Kuhner that I read a couple of years ago. It wasn't In Nomine -- it was her own space opera game -- and she described how one of her PCs tried to destroy a demon by psychically absorbing its personality. She wrote that her PC was prepared for a struggle in which her PC pitted his will against the demon's, but when she actually made contact, the GM described the mind of the demon as like a piece of stained glass. It didn't actually have a distinct personality with which it possessed people. Instead, it fit itself over their perceptions, and acted as a filter through which its victims would see the world in a demonic light. So each person the demon possessed would act out the evil characteristic to that person. Perry, is this what you meant by 'selfless evil'? - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswcasa.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:46:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Shedim possession of a PC On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Miles 2 Go wrote: > Ok, the whole issue of is a human possessed in control or is the Shedim is > deliberately blurred in the rules. The answer is they both are. Which > works out pretty good for NPCs. However, one of my player characters is now > possessed so any advice on how to handle this? Personally, I would just privately tell the player what had happened to them, ask them to keep it a secret, and roleplay accordingly... if the Shedite has an agenda, give the player an idea of it, and ask him to subtlely work towards it. Of course, my players are all just evil enough to ENJOY the situation... making the other players wonder just "what the hell happened to Bert? He's acting pretty damn strange all of a sudden...." - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! GET SOME SLACK, CREATE SOME SLACK, OR DIE THESE ARE YOUR *ONLY* CHOICES -- St. Bubba ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:34:55 -0800 From: atgies@wm.edu Subject: Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine The scenario looks good. Feel free to send it to me if you want. (Don't know what this hubbub about 40k is. Well in my day we sent 100k files with 20-meg attachments, and liked it too. Ahem.) I did have one question, though. >Although this is a minor Tether, it's the only one of Novalis' >between Chicago and the deep South, so it gets a fair amount of >traffic. The only Tether of Novalis in most of Illinois, all Missouri, and western Kentucky? Do people really play this low of a frequency for Tethers? I've picked out at least a half dozen points around my (dinky) hometown to be Tethers in my yet-to-begin campaign, and even assuming around one Tether per decent-sized town, there've got to be dozens of Tethers of Novalis within that area. Do most people play that Tethers are these ultra-rare sacrosanct sites? Another thing that I just thought of: If it's one of the top places in the world for AI research, wouldn't it be a Tether to Jean, even assuming that Tethers are that rare? Adam Gieseler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:33:45 -0800 From: Steven Feldon Subject: RE: IN> Shedim possession of a PC Quoth Rev. Pee Kitty: >Personally, I would just privately tell the player what had happened to >them, ask them to keep it a secret, and roleplay accordingly... if the >Shedite has an agenda, give the player an idea of it, and ask him to >subtlely work towards it. When I did this to my players, I just told the possessed player that he should answer yes to any yes or no question that I asked him, unless I was touching my face, in which case he should answer no. That gave me control over him, and his own role-playing made it sound good, but man, making sure that I maintained the tension while asking him the correct questions was hard. . . . steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:14:36 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After From: > If anything, the Shedite is in a better moral position, because it is > forced to spread evil under duress. yes, but it isn't really "under duress", is it? their dissonance is directly related to their resonance - corruption. shedim *want* to corrupt and ruin people, it's in their nature. just like seraphim want to tell the truth and calabim want to destroy things. liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:24:05 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Possible Tether From: Gregory Gietzen > Yves: "What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in > faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like > an angel, in apprehension how like a god" (Hamlet, II.2.303-6). > Shakespeare's work continues to inspire and illuminate, which would indicate > Yves. but isn't hamlet saying that in bitter sarcasm? i can see yves having a hand in shakespeare, but too many of his plays end in tragedy for kronos not to have one too, IMHO liam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:21:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Possible Tether Wouldn't Blandine or Eli be natural owners of a tether in the Globe? They, alone with Gabriel, are the main Archangelic "muses." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:31:38 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Possible Tether > but isn't hamlet saying that in bitter sarcasm? i can see yves having a hand > in shakespeare, but too many of his plays end in tragedy for kronos not to > have one too, IMHO Actually, Hamlet is saying that in all earnestness. He goes through the "what a piece of work" speech, and caps it of by saying that "this quintessence of dust... delights not me." He admires and recognizes the potential of mankind, but because of his situation, he cannot enjoy it. I think, if anything, Shakespeare falls on the Yves side. The tragedies are just like the Greek tragedy -- here's people who met their Fates; do you really want that to happen to you? And all of his comedies end with a Happy Smiling Wedding, except that the comic villains get pantsed in the end. Moral? Love and redemption win the day of meanies and nastiness. If Shakespeare had a hand in anyone's writing it would be Webster (sp?) author of the Duchess of Malfi, and other such blood-fests. G ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:37:32 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine Hi Adam, The long version follows (separate e-mail). As to your particular points -- >The scenario looks good. Feel free to send it to me if you want. >(Don't know what this hubbub about 40k is. Well in my day we >sent 100k files with 20-meg attachments, and liked it too. Ahem.) Actually, I'm privately a bit annoyed about this. I like and respect Elizabeth, but she's been kinda arbitrary lately. Freely granted, if I were 8 months pregnant and frequently sick, I might be a bit cranky too... but this "no scenarios" rule just appeared out of nowhere, and I'm not too happy about it. I sent her a note offering to publish it in installments, 10k at a time, but have received no reply yet. If you like the long version, feel free to send her a short ping (emccoy@nh.ultranet.com) suggesting that the new policy be reconsidered! >>Although this is a minor Tether, it's the only one of Novalis' >>between Chicago and the deep South, so it gets a fair amount of >>traffic. > >The only Tether of Novalis in most of Illinois, all Missouri, and >western Kentucky? Do people really play this low of a frequency >for Tethers? It varies quite a bit, actually. IMC I try to keep the frequency down. If you've picked up the Book of Tethers, it gets a little confusing on this point... one of several bones I have to pick with the BoT, actually. See, it says that 1) all seneschals must be powerful Celestials, 13 forces or more; and 2) most seneschals are Word-bound to their tethers; and 3) it's really hard to change words, and 4) tethers eventually wither and die, usually crippling or killing the seneschal when they do. Well, if you agree with these points, then tethers can't be too common, unless you're going to crank the population of celestials *way* up. I intend to post this point on the list one of these days (when I have a bit more time for a debate). Meanwhile, feel free to adjust tether frequency to suit your style of play. Me, I keep 'em kinda rare. I've picked out at least a half dozen points around my >(dinky) hometown to be Tethers in my yet-to-begin campaign, and >even assuming around one Tether per decent-sized town, there've >got to be dozens of Tethers of Novalis within that area. Do most >people play that Tethers are these ultra-rare sacrosanct sites? That, I can't say... I'm an isolated GM. You might want to post it to the list. If you are going to make tethers common, though, then be aware of the possible consequences in game terms. Remember, clever players can use them like "teleport tubes" -- go to tether, go celestial, go to Heaven, zip over to another tether-terminus, descend back to earth hundreds or thousands of miles away. This works much better for angels than demons ('cause everyone can move freely around Heaven, whereas Hell is chopped up into Principalities) but it's still a potential unbalancer. >Another thing that I just thought of: If it's one of the top places in >the world for AI research, wouldn't it be a Tether to Jean, even >assuming that Tethers are that rare? Certainly could be, maybe should be. But remember... tether formation is ineffable. Lots of places that ought to be tethers aren't, and some that you wouldn't expect to be, are. cheers, Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:27:38 -0500 (EST) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Douglas Muir wrote: > Actually, I'm privately a bit annoyed about this. I like and respect > Elizabeth, but she's been kinda arbitrary lately. Freely granted, if I > were 8 months pregnant and frequently sick, I might be a bit cranky too... > but this "no scenarios" rule just appeared out of nowhere, and I'm not too > happy about it. I sent her a note offering to publish it in installments, > 10k at a time, but have received no reply yet. Doug, she said no 40K files - that was too long for the list. She did NOT say 'no scenarios'. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! "Ninety-nine percent of life is what you make of it, so if your life sucks, you suck." -- Mike Muir ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:26:41 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine Urgh. That was supposed to go to private e-mail, not to the list. Excuse me. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:31:13 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> The Soul of a New Machine ...and furthermore, I *just* got a reasoned reply, by private e-mail from Elizabeth, as to why something this big shouldn't be posted. I don't agree with it 100%, but it's reasonable enough for me to concede that she's not being arbitrary. So, okay. Doug M. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1458 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.