From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 14 17:40:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28794 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:40:07 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA12187 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:37:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 17:37:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199912142337.RAA12187@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1460 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 14 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1460 In this digest: Re: IN> Possible Tether IN> Possible Tether Re: IN> Possible Tether Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) IN> MBTI & IN RE: IN> The Soul of a New Machine RE: IN> The Soul of a New Machine RE: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> Possible Tether Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> Possible Tether IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> Possible Tether Re: IN> What Demons are Really After Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:43:09 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Possible Tether >(text wanders off into the dark and is eaten by a Grue) Text should have been carrying a torch. >>First, Eli isn't concerned with the stature of the creation so much as the >>act. The act of creating a play, IMHO, does -not- necessarily happen at the >>theater. > >Oooh. Ouch. :-) The entire theatrical profession got dissed there. Forget >the techies, the costumers, and the director. Forget an actors >interpretation of role. Yeah! [snip good defense of theater] One other point. It's canon that Eli is AA of theater, along with all other forms of artistic expression; in "You Are Here", some of his angels have been running the, well, the longest-running show in creation... I'm sure that Eli's tethers include at least a couple of theaters. (The Shubert here in New Haven, OTOH, is linked to Kobal. But that's another story.) Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:50:45 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Possible Tether >>>Nobody who does any serious looking into the business affairs and work ethic of the Disney corporation after Walt's death could -ever- consider its actions to be even remotely angelic.<<< OTOH, whether or not the corporation is angelic, it's the effect it has on the populace that's important in creating Tethers. Cynical adults may scorn Disneyland, but it's still a place of wonder and fun to children. Disney has put out a lot of good stuff, even if the people responsible aren't terribly angelic. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:00:06 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Possible Tether > Disney has put out a lot of good stuff, even if the people responsible > aren't terribly angelic. This raises an interesting issue to me, one further away from "ends justifying means." If say, Nybbas were behind Disneyland, as a way to increase childhood dependence on the Media, or it were a collaboration between Mammon and Malphas (dividing the haves and the have-nots), but the end result wound up being positive and angelic, something for Christopher or Blandine, what does this say about the demonic position? Does this perhaps indicate that the Plan really is ineffable, and part of Lucifer's Destiny was the Fall? G P.S. If you hadn't noticed, part of my love of IN comes from the philosophical issues it raises. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:17:31 -0500 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Perry Lloyd wrote: > > Well, I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say because of copyright legal > crap. But I believe that a comparison would be okay for the list. Thanks Perry, I really appreciate that. I'm surprised at the number of differences. I'd have expected it to be way more similar. I find some of the ideas quite intriguing; I may allow celestials IMC to use corpses as a way to get a cheap vessel quickly. It sounds like MV/INS games are entirely earthbound. Is that correct? I'm also interested in finding out what the tone of the game is. Is it as flexible as IN, or is it more rigid in its world view? Once again Perry, thanks. I hope this line of discussion doesn't tread on anyone's toes. As I mentioned before, my French is lousy, I've yet to see a copy of MV/INS anyway, and my curiousity has been killing me ever since Derek Pearcy told me about it in a correspondance after the playtest version of IN went up on the web. cheers, Doctor TOC - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:26:59 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: IN> MBTI & IN As my glorious campaign of procrastination continues (this time I'm ignoring a presentation for my 20th C. Design Theory class), another query springs to mind. Is anyone else interested in the Myers-Briggs Temperment Indicator? (A personality theory that, essentially, places people into 16 personality types.) I've been intrigued by it for a while, and now I can combine my time-wasting mailing lists. What personality types do the various AAs/DPs fall into? I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this. I have some theories, but I won't go boring everyone with them if no one else has an interest in this stuff. G ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:00:44 -0600 From: "M Trent" Subject: RE: IN> The Soul of a New Machine >The only Tether of Novalis in most of Illinois, all Missouri, and >western Kentucky? Do people really play this low of a frequency >for Tethers? I've picked out at least a half dozen points around my >(dinky) hometown to be Tethers in my yet-to-begin campaign, and >even assuming around one Tether per decent-sized town, there've >got to be dozens of Tethers of Novalis within that area. Do most >people play that Tethers are these ultra-rare sacrosanct sites? > >Another thing that I just thought of: If it's one of the top places in >the world for AI research, wouldn't it be a Tether to Jean, even >assuming that Tethers are that rare? An example from my campaign: my Home Town of Sherman TX (pop about 30,000) has 5 tethers in the very near area. The greater Dallas/Fort Worth area (pop about 2.5 million) has 2. And one of 'm isn't even well known. Basically the tethers don't spawn in response to population, but rather in response to key events. I also use a slightly non-canonial method of stabilizing theaters... but frequently tethers (and celestial population) aren't all that related to the human population. But YMMV. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:00:48 -0600 From: "M Trent" Subject: RE: IN> The Soul of a New Machine >('cause everyone can move freely around Heaven, Not IMC. But again YMMV. After all it's such a hassle to find a guide who know his way to the tether terminus, plus I decline to make time a constant, 8) and some AAs (Dominic, Jean, and Laurence mostly) are anal about letting unauthorized PCs use their tethers. Though if they are willing to take just a point in Area Knowledge (Heaven) I'd cut 'm some slack, as they did spent one of their precious character points for it. 8) Any GM should be able to control tether usage easily. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:00:50 -0600 From: "M Trent" Subject: RE: IN> MBTI & IN >Is anyone else interested in the Myers-Briggs Temperment Indicator? (A >personality theory that, essentially, places people into 16 personality >types.) I've been intrigued by it for a while, and now I can combine my >time-wasting mailing lists. I'm sure I'd be interested and bout theories with you about AAs and DPs but I have no idea what on earth it is. Don't guess you have a link to a fairly good explanation? Probably not. Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 01:03:11 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN > I have no idea what on earth it is. Don't guess you have a link to a fairly > good explanation? Probably not. Funny you should mention it... The e-mail I sent out was a second draft; I abandoned the first owing to a computer crash. Anyway, two fairly good sites for the personality theory are keirsey.com (where you can take the test and type yourself) and www.personalitypage.com, which features nice in depth descriptions of the various temperments & personalities. G ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:32:11 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After > >Neel (neelk@cswcasa.com) wrote: > > > >> If anything, the Shedite is in a better moral position, because it is > >> forced to spread evil under duress. > > > >It's rather like the "better moral position" humanity is in > >due to Original Sin. We didn't ASK to have these fault-lines in > >our souls, but we have them, and the are real faults. > >Certainly; a madman setting to an orphanage is a real danger even if >he is not fully responsible for his actions. > > >And we are not sorry about them in ourselves nearly as often as > >we are about them in each other. > >That's actually one of the reasons I'm trying to give them the benefit >of the doubt. I don't want to deny the possibility of human evil, so I >want to leave open the question of how much of the corruption the Shedim >do is their fault, and how much is simply revealing what the person they >inhabited is capable of. /IC/ The Shedite, you see, does not actually "corrupt" its victim, it merely helps the human attain a greater understanding of what evil s/he is capable of doing. As Confucious once said, and I remember this day clearly, "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." Thus the Shedit helps the human to attain greater understanding of itself. /OOC/ > >Which brings up another point about Shedim. How many of them REGRET > >corrupting their hosts? If a Shedite didn't WANT to corrupt people, > >it would presumably stay in Hell, or ooze out into the Marches and > >make a dash for Blandine's Tower to defect, or something. Desire vs Duty Desire vs Instinct >It depends on how you run them, I guess. > >IMC, they were released to Earth only very sparingly. The out-of-game >reason is that it was frustrating for players to have to deal with an >enemy that can easily shift between bodies and read the memories and >plans of their allies. Stopping a Shedite permanently is an exercise >in frustration if the PCs don't have exactly the right skill set. And the irhgt mind-set is as essential as the tolls, skills and abilities needed to capture one of those buggers. Remember the movie _Fallen_? If you haven't seen it, you should. >The in-game rationale for their limited use was that releasing Shedim >to Earth was considered risky by the Demon Princes. There was a >significant risk that the selfishness that made them demons could be >overcome, since a Shedite pretty much had to live cheek-by-jowl in the >mind of another person. As a result they tended only to be used on >Earth when their powers were critical to the Prince's plans. Cheek-by-Jowl? Moment-to-moment? >The actual personalities of the Shedim varied quite a bit, of course. >They made interesting NPCs, since they could posess someone close to >the PCs in order to talk to them without risking a firefight breaking >out. It's a very tense situation. > >One of my favorites was inspired by a post on a newsgroup by Mary >Kuhner that I read a couple of years ago. It wasn't In Nomine -- it >was her own space opera game -- and she described how one of her PCs >tried to destroy a demon by psychically absorbing its personality. >She wrote that her PC was prepared for a struggle in which her PC >pitted his will against the demon's, but when she actually made >contact, the GM described the mind of the demon as like a piece of >stained glass. > >It didn't actually have a distinct personality with which it possessed >people. Instead, it fit itself over their perceptions, and acted as a >filter through which its victims would see the world in a demonic >light. So each person the demon possessed would act out the evil >characteristic to that person. > >Perry, is this what you meant by 'selfless evil'? > >-- >Neel Krishnaswami >neelk@cswcasa.com Selfless evil as the evil commited by a being with no sense of self because it adopted the self of whpomever it was "attached to?" No, but its a neat concept. Perhaps a good idea for a minor band. By selfless evil, I meant a being who had worked to overcome its own sense of sense and build a large enough pathway for a greater evil to pass through it, rather to use it as a vessel, a channel for that evil to move through. [DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!] The closest thing I can think of as an example of selflessly evil is that of a person who willingly allows a Shedit to possess him or her so that the person may "ride the Shedite", essentially switiching active and passive roles. Rather than the Shedite passively nudging the Host, instead the Hpost "selflessly" allows the Shedite greater control and thus gains the ability to comment on the Shedite's behavior. This kind of selfless behavior may be enough to drive the Shedite out, for if the host has given up all sense of control completely, or nearly completely, then the Shedite has nothing left to corrupt. The erpson has become the bystander watching and nudgung the Shedite, rather than the other way around. A neat campaing idea would be for something like this to have happened on an intervention, causing the Shedite and human to "switch bodies", meaning that now the human soul is able to move from person to person, the Shedite is trapped in a vessel that it cannot corrupt! Demonic PCs may be called in by the Shedite to help it out, either through bribery, threats, or Geasa. An Angelic party may stumble upon the human soul, who either must be helped, or stopped from running wild. Or maybe a mixed campaign in which BOTH sides are trying to stop the thing that's been created. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Nothing takes the taste out of peanut butter quite like unrequited love. - --Charlie Brown ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:34:19 -0600 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN > What personality types do the various AAs/DPs fall into? I'd like to hear > other people's thoughts on this. I have some theories, but I won't go > boring everyone with them if no one else has an interest in this stuff. Hmm....I've always been fond of the various personality sorters...I'd like to hear you theories, offlist if nothing else...(only one I can pick out off the top of my head would be David(an Architect(INTP) if there ever was) Ben Chism ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:59:09 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Possible Tether >From: Douglas Muir > >But what about Eli? Surely he'd be a strong contender IMG, Eli already has a tether very close to there. It's the tavern in Southwark from which the Canterbury Pilgrims were said to have departed (in Chaucer's 'Canterbury Tales' -- the first novel ever published in the English language). I used to live near there and amazingly, it's still a pub to this day. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:05:34 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN Vapula is ENTP jo (just like me ;P) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 01:42:12 -0600 From: "Ben Chism" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN > > Vapula is ENTP Jean would most likely be an INTP, maybe ENTP Dominic would have to be INTJ or ISTJ(Ditto with Asmodeus)...Michael..maybe ENTJ or ENFP(Baal would be ENTJ) Eli I can't pin down...maybe INTP, or any of the Artisian archetypes...Oh, for everybody who's absolutly lost by this check out the sites Gregory suggested(especially www.keirsey.com you even get to take a free(short) personality test...) They are pretty interesting and can be pretty accurate(btw, I'm an INTP) Ben Chism ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:27:26 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN From: Ben Chism > Dominic would have to be INTJ or ISTJ(Ditto with Asmodeus)... I'm glad my Introverted iNtuition didn't fail me here. (Mainly because Dom. and Asmo. are my two favorites, and I'm an INTJ.) Maybe Yves would be somewhere in the NF (Idealist) category? I'm thinking an INFJ, like Ghandi, off the top of my head. G ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:33:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN For the sake of the rest of the list, here is a highly-compressed rundown of the Myers-Briggs personality system (based, to a degree, on Jungian psychology): The first letter of the code is I or E: - I = Introvert; privacy is easier than company - E = Extrovert; company is easier than privacy The second letter of the code is N or S: - N = iNtuition; ideas are more interesting than practicalities - S = Sensation; practicalities are more interesting than ideas The third letter of the code is F or T: - F = Feeling; emotions are more important than reason - T = Thinking; reason is more important than emotions The fourth letter of the code is P or J: - P = Process; activity is important for its own sake, not results - J = Judging; results are importtant for their own sake, not activity That's HIGHLY compressed, so highly as to mislead many, so do some Web-surfing for more clarity if you're at all interested. Ben Chism wrote: > Jean would most likely be an INTP, maybe ENTP I would have pegged Jean as INTJ or ENTJ, but definitely a J. > Dominic would have to be INTJ or ISTJ (Ditto with Asmodeus) Agreed. > Michael..maybe ENTJ or ENFP (Baal would be ENTJ) I would say Michale is extroverted, terribly practical, not terribly feeling-oriented, and not at all interested in rules, so ESTP. > Eli I can't pin down...maybe INTP, or any of the Artisian archetypes I'd make Eli an extrovert and a feeling type, clearly not rule-bound: ENFP. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:43:18 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Possible Tether Kris Overstreet wrote: > Second, considering how much revisionist press has been put out about > Slick Willie S' 'plagarism,' one wonders just how much creating > Shakespeare actually -did- do there. Then the revisionist press is unaware of pre-Romantic ideas about artistry and creativity. In Shakespeare's own day, and for a long time before and after, people did not look for stoires invented out of whole cloth; rather, they wanted to see how well the artist could render his own telling of one of the great, old tales. Remember that, until quite recently, "new" had little, if any, connotation of "better." When a modern film-maker does a cinematic version of "Hamlet" or "Romeo & Ethel the Pirate's Daughter," we don't expect him to meddle with the script overmuch (or we want a DAMN good reason why), back than, they didn't expact or want the playwright to meddle with the plot overmuch. It was in the telling, and the language, and the details, that the artist showed his worth. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 00:01:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition Yes, even before it's printed, it got revised! Pardon me whilst I squelch the Nybbassian "All New Material" stuff. The bare facts are: attunements and resonances (and Distinctions) changed a lot. Essence changed a lot. There's some new advantages that form the core of celestial powers (no more flipping to Psionics!). And it's up for playtest again on Pyramid. [Plug: $15 a year, and playtest too!] Chapters 2, 3, and 4 got the most changes (if I recall correctly), but many of the others got minorly touched as well. (Often _very_ minorly.) The Appendix is not going to be in the book, but it's there for reference and as far as I know is intended to go up on the web afterward. Also there are all the _previous_ topics! If you haven't been in on the playtest previously, skim the topics so that we don't rehash anything that's already been hashed to death. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:11:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) At 6:03 PM -0800 12/13/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Well, I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say because of copyright legal >crap. But I believe that a comparison would be okay for the list. (Hey, it's not crap! It's the means by which some of us make money! O:> A hundred years from now, you can gripe about the copyright legal mess, probably, and have a point...) Anyway, a summary/comparison is okay, generally. Wholesale translation of large chunks won't be. In dubious circumstances, talk to me privately and I'll render my best judgment (conservative side!) as to yea or nay. (Remember, I don't want to get in trouble with the French people either!) Minor tip -- accented characters aren't standard plain text, and always come through as a little square box in my window. Be kind, use plain American! O:> >* VolontÈ (Strength of Mind/Will), >INS/MV has no Vessels, thus no vessel costs. So far as I understand it, >Angels and Demons are bound into the bodies of once-living humans, trapped >there until they are killed. IIRC, the demons just kill off whoever, while angels trade a Direct Ticket To Heaven for use of the body. (Oh, and sorcerers can summon, and bind, angels.) >Differences in Superiors: >DEMON PRINCES (What, doesn't the main book have Andromalius, Prince of Judgment?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:40:16 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Possible Tether From: Kris Overstreet > Nobody who does any serious looking into the business affairs and work > ethic of the Disney corporation after Walt's death could -ever- consider > its actions to be even remotely angelic. or before he died, either. the guy was a fairly talentless nasty piece of work liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:38:49 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> What Demons are Really After >From: > > If anything, the Shedite is in a better moral position, because it is > > forced to spread evil under duress. > >yes, but it isn't really "under duress", is it? their dissonance is >directly >related to their resonance - corruption. shedim *want* to corrupt and ruin >people, it's in their nature. just like seraphim want to tell the truth and >calabim want to destroy things. > > >liam Just like Seraphim want to tell the truth and Calabim like to destroy things? Perhaps, but what about those who are unsatisfied with the way they have been created? those who are not content do be what has been their design? Do they Fall, Redeem, or simply break under the weight of the pressure to conform to their inner nature? I do not believe that Shedim *want* to corrupt, no more than Seraphim want to seek Truth, it is that they are *compelled* to do so, and its been supported, expected, and made out to be FUN by those who have taught them. After all, of all the demons, they can do what it is that all demons long to do, DIRECTLY turn the human souls away from the light of God, from truth and glory, and turn them to see only the heart and warth of their own selfish wants, until every human they've touched has become so obsessed with their own desires that they turn completely away from looking beyond their own noses at the needs and wants of others. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Never touch a butterfly's wing with your finger. - --Colette ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:43:03 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) >Jean-Lur, AA of Protectors (that should be Jean-Luc) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "If you're not making mistakes, you're not trying hard enough." - Allen R. Sandage) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:28:43 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) > >Well, I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say because of copyright legal > >crap. But I believe that a comparison would be okay for the list. > >(Hey, it's not crap! It's the means by which some of us make money! O:> >A hundred years from now, you can gripe about the copyright legal mess, >probably, and have a point...) Sorry, I like to believe that I think long-term. :) >Anyway, a summary/comparison is okay, generally. Wholesale translation >of large chunks won't be. In dubious circumstances, talk to me privately >and I'll render my best judgment (conservative side!) as to yea or nay. OK, I'll remember that. :) >(Remember, I don't want to get in trouble with the French people either!) Hey, getting in trouble with an entire ethnic group isn't fun, especially the french because they're very familiar with making people suffer. Probably not as much as the Germans (whom they learned from), but . . . >Minor tip -- accented characters aren't standard plain text, and always >come through as a little square box in my window. Be kind, use plain >American! O:> > >* VolontÈ (Strength of Mind/Will), Sorry, the words aren't the same without the accents. Accents in French can CHANGE the meaning of a word. Ou and Ou are two distinct words, one meaning "where" the other meaning "or". I left the accent off purposefully . . . can you tell which is which? :P But, yeah, I hadn't thought of that. Words that I had given stupid accents with: * VOLONTE * PERCEPTION * AGILITE * PRECISION JESUS and it should be Jean-Luc, not Jean-Lur and it should be Baalberith, not Baalberity > >INS/MV has no Vessels, thus no vessel costs. So far as I understand it, > >Angels and Demons are bound into the bodies of once-living humans, >trapped > >there until they are killed. > > IIRC, the demons just kill off whoever, while angels trade a Direct >Ticket To Heaven for use of the body. Kinda creepy, eh? (Oh, and sorcerers can summon, and >bind, angels.) I don't believe the main book has Sorcerors in it at all. If it does, I haven't found them. Oh, one other important thing, similarity between the books, IN is organized like the INS/MV book. So, if you're wondering why the hell SJGames ogranized IN the way they did, blame the original. > >Differences in Superiors: > >DEMON PRINCES > >(What, doesn't the main book have Andromalius, Prince of Judgment?) Ooops, missed those pages. Andromalius, DP of Judgement Asmodee, DP of the Game Interestingly, it looks like its Andromalius who is the Asmodeus equivilant. Asmodee is Prince of *games*, literally, and they talk about him playing all sorts of games: "en vrac: Advanced Squad Leader, GURPS, Car Wars, Illuminati, Runequest, Space Hulk ou (en plus classique) la roulette et le poker et, bien evidemment, In Nomine Satanis." Los Vegas would be a "shrine" to Asmodee!! Cool stuff, I must say so myself. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com There's nothing better than good sex. But bad sex? A peanut butter and jelly sandwich is better than bad sex. - --Billy Joel ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:50:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) At 1:28 PM -0800 12/14/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Sorry, the words aren't the same without the accents. Accents in French can >CHANGE the meaning of a word. Well, there's always using ' to suggest an accent... O:> (Cafe' for Caf<\#142>, for instance. (Since my handydandy Quark guide is printed out here...)) >>(Oh, and sorcerers can summon, and bind, angels.) > >I don't believe the main book has Sorcerors in it at all. If it does, I >haven't found them. Wouldn't be surprised if they were elsewhere. I recall an entire adventure in a magazine being devoted to those critters, though. Sort of. Amusing adventure. Gets the PCs killed. >Oh, one other important thing, similarity between the books, IN is organized >like the INS/MV book. So, if you're wondering why the hell SJGames >ogranized IN the way they did, blame the original. Reeeeeeallly? Indeed. SMITE! >Andromalius, DP of Judgement >Asmodee, DP of the Game > >Interestingly, it looks like its Andromalius who is the Asmodeus equivilant. They got conflated, as far as I know (which is mostly from talking to someone who _has_ the stuff). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:44:06 -0500 From: Doctor TOC Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Perry Lloyd wrote: > > Asmodee is Prince of *games*, literally, and they talk about him playing > all sorts of games: "en vrac: Advanced Squad Leader, GURPS, Car Wars, > Illuminati, Runequest, Space Hulk ou (en plus classique) la roulette et le > poker et, bien evidemment, In Nomine Satanis." Er, hang on. There's *three* SJG games in there. Prophetic or what? Guess there's a reason why they call him "Evil Stevie"... I very much like the idea that Sorcerers can summon and bind angels. And the body thing? Brrrr. Some of this stuff is definately going to turn up in my game. Thanks again, Perry and Beth. Much obliged. Doctor TOC (Now out of excuses not to brush up his French, dammit) - -- The Reverend Doctor "The Other Chris" ICQ # 4814586 Time War RPG - http://jump.to/TimeWar The TOC Files - http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/wilhelm/148/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:11:45 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) >From: Doctor TOC >It sounds like MV/INS games are entirely earthbound. Is that correct? >I'm also interested in finding out what the tone of the game is. Is it >as flexible as IN, or is it more rigid in its world view? Flexible as IN? I don't find IN all that flexible, but I grew up (role-playing wise) with GURPS, so . . . No, I'd say that its more inflexible than IN in certain senses, but less inflexible in others, mostly because of the way the Catholic belief structure works after the most recently "upgrade" within the Catholic church. Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to my understanding of the latest new church policies, relationships with people of other religions is much different than it has been earlier this century. >Once again Perry, thanks. I hope this line of discussion doesn't tread >on anyone's toes. As I mentioned before, my French is lousy, I've yet to >see a copy of MV/INS anyway, and my curiousity has been killing me ever >since Derek Pearcy told me about it in a correspondance after the >playtest version of IN went up on the web. Well, Doc, I'd suggest maybe trying to line up a purchase of it from any European contacts you have and then have it shipped over privately. My copy cost TOO MUCH. :) But, i can't complain too much 'cause I love french and I love gaming. The combination of the two is too delicious. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever. - --Chinese proverb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:17:03 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN >Hmm....I've always been fond of the various personality sorters...I'd like >to hear you theories, offlist if nothing else...(only one I can pick out >off >the top of my head would be David(an Architect(INTP) if there ever was) > >Ben Chism I'd say INTJ, myself. David feels much more "need for stability" than "open-ended," at least to me. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. - --Alvin Toffler ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:42:57 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) > >Sorry, the words aren't the same without the accents. Accents in French >can > >CHANGE the meaning of a word. > >Well, there's always using ' to suggest an accent... O:> (Cafe' for >Caf<\#142>, for instance. (Since my handydandy Quark guide is printed >out here...)) Heh, heh . . . oh. Good idea. :) > >>(Oh, and sorcerers can summon, and bind, angels.) > > > >I don't believe the main book has Sorcerors in it at all. If it does, I > >haven't found them. > >Wouldn't be surprised if they were elsewhere. I recall an entire adventure >in a magazine being devoted to those critters, though. Sort of. Amusing >adventure. Gets the PCs killed. > > >Oh, one other important thing, similarity between the books, IN is >organized > >like the INS/MV book. So, if you're wondering why the hell SJGames > >ogranized IN the way they did, blame the original. > >Reeeeeeallly? Indeed. SMITE! Hahahah . . . Yeah . . . And if you thought trying to understand the American version of the game one the first read, try it in French. > >Andromalius, DP of Judgement > >Asmodee, DP of the Game > > > >Interestingly, it looks like its Andromalius who is the Asmodeus >equivilant. > > They got conflated, as far as I know (which is mostly from talking >to someone who _has_ the stuff). Conflated? As in "to combine (two varient texts, for example) into one whole"? That's made somewhat more clear by the writeup on Asmodeus in Heaven and Hell, but I don't recall much emphasis made upon his demons working much to corrupt humans who's vice is gaming (computer games, gambling, RPG's, mind games, etc..), as it is in the French. Pity SJGames didn't keep Asmodee's special power/attunement, it allows the PC (for 3PP/Essence) to FORCE someone into taking a dare/bet, no matter how stupid or bizarre or dangerous. Well, there's Kobal's Lilim band attunement, kinda, but that's merely an extension of their attunement, meaning that other demons can't possess the same ability. The target gets a Will roll (equiv.) to resist, but if he fails, he has to try over and over, I guess in IN terms, a number of times = to the demon's CD. Maybe appropriate for Kobal, eh? :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Eagles may soar in the clouds, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. - --Jason Hutchison ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:04:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) At 2:42 PM -0800 12/14/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>>Oh, one other important thing, similarity between the books, IN is >>>organized like the INS/MV book. [...] >> >>Reeeeeeallly? Indeed. SMITE! > >Hahahah . . . Yeah . . . And if you thought trying to understand the >American version of the game one the first read, try it in French. Ugh, no thanks... >> >Andromalius, DP of Judgement >> >Asmodee, DP of the Game [...] >> They got conflated, as far as I know (which is mostly from talking >>to someone who _has_ the stuff). > >Conflated? As in "to combine (two varient texts, for example) into one >whole"? Aye, yes. Andromalius seems to be the dominant personality, but the Word and name are closer to Asmodee, and Asmodeus seems to have a touch of the gamesman in things besides the (Kiplingesque?) Great Game. From what I've heard, at least. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:56:12 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) >Perry Lloyd wrote: > > > > Asmodee is Prince of *games*, literally, and they talk about him >playing > > all sorts of games: "en vrac: Advanced Squad Leader, GURPS, Car Wars, > > Illuminati, Runequest, Space Hulk ou (en plus classique) la roulette et >le > > poker et, bien evidemment, In Nomine Satanis." > >Er, hang on. There's *three* SJG games in there. Prophetic or what? >Guess there's a reason why they call him "Evil Stevie"... Well, this is the Third Ed. of the book I'm looking at, which was copyright, 1997, *after* the SJGames and Asmodee/Siroz Productions collaboration. >I very much like the idea that Sorcerers can summon and bind angels. And >the body thing? Brrrr. Some of this stuff is definately going to turn up >in my game. Yeah, I've already started a reworking of my rules for a mix of the two I'm calling In Nomine Veritas. I'm using Fudge (thanks to David Edelstein, I've found his FUGDGE rules helpful) rules modified, keeping most of the IN stuff, so that the players can use the books and supplements, but keeping some of the old french ideas, like Heavenly/Infernal auras, and only one vessel. We'll see. though. I have yet to playtest it. >Thanks again, Perry and Beth. Much obliged. >Doctor TOC >(Now out of excuses not to brush up his French, dammit) Ha ha ha, I suggest picking up a copy of Le Robert Micro, a french to french dictionary. Once you get back up to a decent level of French, looking up the meanings of words will help to improve your french further! :) It takes longer, but the effects are more enduring. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:36:14 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) > >>>Oh, one other important thing, similarity between the books, IN is > >>>organized like the INS/MV book. [...] > >> > >>Reeeeeeallly? Indeed. SMITE! > > > >Hahahah . . . Yeah . . . And if you thought trying to understand the > >American version of the game one the first read, try it in French. > > >Ugh, no thanks... Heh heh. > >> >Andromalius, DP of Judgement > >> >Asmodee, DP of the Game >[...] > >> They got conflated, as far as I know (which is mostly from talking > >>to someone who _has_ the stuff). > > > >Conflated? As in "to combine (two varient texts, for example) into one > >whole"? > >Aye, yes. Andromalius seems to be the dominant personality, but the >Word and name are closer to Asmodee, and Asmodeus seems to have a touch >of the gamesman in things besides the (Kiplingesque?) Great Game. > >From what I've heard, at least. I can see that, a bit. Makes me think of the "Great White Hunter" type of gameman, for whom the odds are almost always in his favor. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com "Plots and Plans. What everyone should have to cook with." - Elizabeth McCoy (personal interview 3/23/99) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1460 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.