From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Dec 15 15:11:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13396 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:11:49 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id PAA06823 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:08:39 -0600 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:08:39 -0600 Message-Id: <199912152108.PAA06823@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1461 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 15 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1461 In this digest: Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> MBTI & IN IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] RE: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] IN> Big Win Re: IN> MBTI & IN RE: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) IN> A Jordi Moment Re: IN> MBTI & IN RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition IN> Servitorsf Eli. Re: IN> Servitorsf Eli. RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition RE: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] Re: IN> Servitorsf Eli. RE: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition Re: IN> A Jordi Moment Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> MBTI & IN Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) IN> The Final Trumpet question... Re: IN> Copts and Robers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 18:56:04 -0500 From: Dan Weaver Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN This is really amazing; I came out classified as an ENTP and found out that my two favorite scientists, Richard Feynman and Nikola Tesla, were also ENTPs. Nifty stuff and very accurate I think. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 99 12:48:28 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN > Is anyone else interested in the Myers-Briggs Temperment Indicator? (A > personality theory that, essentially, places people into 16 personality > types.) I've been intrigued by it for a while, and now I can combine my > time-wasting mailing lists. I am Azrael-> stuball@tpgi.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:11:41 -0600 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] >>>Oh, one other important thing, similarity between the books, IN is organized like the INS/MV book. So, if you're wondering why the hell SJGames ogranized IN the way they did, blame the original.<<< This doesn't surprise me. It's hard to say how much of the SJG version was Derek Pearcy's innovation and how much was due to input from Steve and other playtesters, but a lot of what Derek has written seems to have been just a straight translation, more or less. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 21:37:35 -0600 From: "M Trent" Subject: RE: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] >[...] but a lot of what Derek has written seems to have >been just a straight translation, more or less. Which is good. 8) Trent Ofanite of Doubt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 23:09:30 -0500 From: "Sally" Subject: IN> Big Win *Earn $2000 - $5000 weekly-starting within 1-4 weeks *78% Profit Paid Daily *No Selling *No Risk Guarantee *Work from home, No overhead, or employees. *High Tech Training & Support *Not MLM, 100x more profitable *Multibillion Dollar Travel Industry The most incredible part of our business is that ALL MY CLIENTS CALL ME! DO YOU QUALIFY FOR OUR MENTOR PROGRAM? 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(Pt/FT) with the DESIRE to improve their lifestyle immediately. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Please remove at mailto:edcv@isleuthmail.com?subject=remove /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:17:58 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN >This is really amazing; I came out classified as an ENTP and found out >that my two favorite scientists, Richard Feynman and Nikola Tesla, were >also ENTPs. Nifty stuff and very accurate I think. > >Dan Like most things, it is as accurate as our own perceptions. Granted, our own perceptions tend to be accurate, well, so far as we can tell. :) I personally find this sort of thing to be a useful tool for organizing knowledge into a form of understanding. Of course, astrology is also a useful tool for this same purpose, as is the Tarot, Psychoanalysis, the Kiths (Changeling), Moon Breed and Tribe (Werewolf), Clan (Vampire), Band/Choir and Word (In Nomine), and religion. I guess the only question is, to what end can such a tool be used, or has it already served its purpose by allowing us some comfort in the belief that we understand something? - -Perry, ENFP :P perrylloyd@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:52:42 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] > >This doesn't surprise me. It's hard to say how much of the SJG version > >was Derek Pearcy's innovation and how much was due to input from >Steve > >and other playtesters, but a lot of what Derek has written seems >to have > >been just a straight translation, more or less. > >Which is good. 8) > >Trent Ofanite of Doubt I would side with "less", while I see a lot of direct translation of the Superiors, many of the Limitations (we give them levels and call them Discords), some of the Powers (we call them Songs), Power Points (we call it Essence), five out the six characteristics, Power and Accuracy rules in combat (not quite the same because the game mechanics are different), most of the rest of the book doesn't feel like a straight translation. Dice systems are different, rules after death are different, rules governing bodies/vessels are different, the amount of damage Angels take versus what Demons take are different, there's only physical combat discussed in the main book because it really only discusses the dreamlands in the insert which came with the book and angels and demons can't "go celestial" so they can't fight celestially, (But there are certain powers that can allow them to go "insubstantial.") and there is NO mention of the Symphony in INS/MV. In INS/MV, Angels take 1/3rd damage from anything, Demons only 1/2. So if a car falls on an Angel inflicting 12pts of damage, the Angel takes 3pts where the Demon would take 4pts. Not a huge difference, but it's there. Hey, I love both games, but . . . the American game, while it may be "officially" the English translation, isn't much of a "translation" by my standards, I see it as merely one game based heavily upon another. I have yet to run across the Fate/Destiny dynamic in INS/MV. I have yet to see anything talked about in terms of selfishness vs selflessness in INS/MV. Rules for whether or not humans go to heaven of hell in INS/MV 1) if the human was a criminal (in terms of human law)- Hell 2) if the human committed suicide through your inaction - Hell 3) if he was part of a religious order or was a servitor or soldier of God or blindly followed the laws of God and does not fall under categories 1 or 2 - Heaven 4) in all other cases roll d66: 1d66 Result 11-13 Heaven 14-46 Purgatory 51-66 Hell INS/MV is HEAVILY centered on the birth of Christ; its a game based heavily on Catholic assumptions. In INS/MV, the birth of Christ meant the beginning of the end all other religions as the one true faith had been revealed, but that fades into the background b/c its asusmed. And the book is essentially TWO distinct books between one binding, so that there's one side about playing an angel, and one side about playing a demon, including complete repetition of game mechanics, combat rules, everything but the Superiors, background, Powers, and Limitations (which are not *all* repeated because there are a few differences between them). I like it, though, because it means that I now own TWO different games which are similar (one American, one French). But, if you want to do a cross-over game, be prepared for the looks on your players' faces when they meet Tarzan, avatar of Jordi. (I kid you not! MV pg 60) Tarzan, avatar of Jordi Force of Body 5, Force of Mind 4, Perception 5, Agility 5, Precision 3, Charisma 3, Power Points 50 Skills: Fighting(4), Stealth(6), Survival in Forest(4), Dodge(6), Acrobatics(6) Powers: Supernatural Force of Mind(2), Regeneration(2), Chameleon(2), Detection of Evil(2), Detection of Invisible Creatures(2), Danger Sense(2), Telepathy(2), Animal Control(4), Speak with Animals(6) here's two other funny ones: Jurassic-Mouth, avatar of Haagenti (INS pg 62) and Kool, avatar of Novalis (MV pg 66). Heh, heh, those wacky french. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com But don't take *my* word for it, buy your own copy. Oh, and Sorcerers *are* in the insert, as are Renegades (angels and demons alike), Psis (neat, huh?), explanation of the Marches, the Vikings in the Marches (the French have a history of interest in the Vikings), the Soldiers of the Hollow Earth (founded by the KKK, evidently), and the Bureau, a collaboration between Dominique and Andromalius to hunt down Renegades. It's cool. :) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:36:47 -0600 From: "Kiara S. Legner" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN > I personally find this sort of thing to be a useful tool for organizing > knowledge into a form of understanding. Of course, astrology is also a > useful tool for this same purpose, as is the Tarot, Psychoanalysis, the > Kiths (Changeling), Moon Breed and Tribe (Werewolf), Clan (Vampire), > Band/Choir and Word (In Nomine), and religion. > > I guess the only question is, to what end can such a tool be used, or has it > already served its purpose by allowing us some comfort in the belief that we > understand something? Humans have always wanted to classify their worlds, and the Myers-Briggs test is another useful tool for doing so. Perhaps its advantage over Band/Choir is that it is a bit more all-encompassing... Band/Choir doesn't, in my opinion, seem to be as inclusive of human personality types - but more a way to take human types and twist them into something just a bit alien. As for using Words, we have Words where the WordBound has died and the Word has not been replaced, and the Words are aligned with Heaven/Hell. A Myers-Briggs type isn't aligned with a side in the War! I would agree that we classify in an attempt to understand things - after all, if A is like B, and I already think I understand A, then I can generalize my understanding of A to include B. Which leads to things like stereotyping... Which leads to the use I can see with the Myers-Briggs for IN - if you're trying to get your brain wrapped around a particular concept in IN, why not reclassify Band/Choir/Word/Archangel/Angel to fit a classification system with which you're already familiar? And yet, do we ever understand anything fully? Kiara, INTJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:52:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN Perry Lloyd wrote: > I personally find this sort of thing to be a useful tool for > organizing knowledge into a form of understanding. Of course, > astrology is also a useful tool for this same purpose, > Band/Choir and Word (In Nomine), and religion. I agree with Kiara; I don't think the Bands and Words of IN form a very complete taxonomy of human personality types. If the Words had been, say, lined up with the Seven Splendid Virtues and Seven Deadly Sins, and the Choirs/Bands had been lined up with the four elements or the seven astrological planets, it might have been nearer a psychological taxonomy -- if that's what you want in a game. > I guess the only question is, to what end can such a tool be used, > or has it already served its purpose by allowing us some comfort in > the belief that we understand something? Well, the main use of the system as it is put forward by Kiersey and Bates, is as a tool to advance understanding between people of different personality types. Their book on the subject is "Please Understand Me," and uses the system as a tool to help the reader understand the perspectives of the other types. For instance, SJ types tend to dismiss SP types as irresponsible jerks, while SP types dismiss SJ types as authoritarian jerks. Understanding one another, by the way, doesn't seem to be a big priority for Superiors of any stripe -- a natural result of their being Word-bound to the Nth. The only exception seems to be Yves, who appears to understand everyone and be understood by no one. > -Perry, ENFP :P Of *course* you're dubious about the value of a character taxonomy; you're a P-type, for whom settling on a decision is the end of the fun, not the goal you're after... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:59:00 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Perry Lloyd wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to my understanding of the > latest new church policies, relationships with people of other > religions is much different than it has been earlier this century. That is certainly my own impression. At the beginning of the century, the general attitude appeared to be that Protestants were the Enemy and barely Christian, if at all, while Eastern Orthodox were only a shade better. Now, there have been decades of mutual outreach, and they've made numerous patch-ups with various other Christian groups, most recently and notably agreeing with the Copts that they (the Copts) aren't guilty of the Monophysite heresy, and agreeing with the Lutherans about justification by faith (one thesis down; 94 to go...). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:25:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> A Jordi Moment ...or maybe Novalis. Today on the Web, I read the "Rose Is Rose" comic from a week ago. Two of the characters are Pasquale, a small boy, and his guardian angel. This strip has Pasquale in bed, with the angel hovering over him. Pasquale: "I bet I know why you let me catch a cold. *sniff* I bet you're trying to build up my immune system. *sniff* No hard feelings! I understand! In fact, I should say "Thank you"! *sniff*" [Cuddles down and goes to sleep.] Angel (to itself): "I see no point in telling him I have germ clients also." See: http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/roseisrose/ab.html Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:41:32 -0700 From: Tim Groth Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN Michael is ENFP (Champion) and laurance is most likely a NTEJ (Fieldmarshal). Novalis kinda fits the INFP (Healer). Malphas is INTJ (Mastermind) or ISTJ (Inspector). What about Lucifer though? I try to think of one and I dont' think any fit the Lightbringer (at least not in his current state, perhaps at one time he was ENFJ (Teacher) or even INFJ (Counselor). But the Word of Light and the duty of bringing illumination would suggest an extrovert. Anyway my rambling is over for now. Timothy, Angel of Rambling If you have a hankering for waffles or chicken i know the place for you: http://d106-h032.rh.rit.edu/~tim/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:31:03 -0600 From: "Greg Bilbruck" Subject: RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition When is IN 2nd Edition to be printed? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Elizabeth McCoy > Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 11:01 PM > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition > > > Yes, even before it's printed, it got revised! > > Pardon me whilst I squelch the Nybbassian "All New Material" stuff. > The bare facts are: attunements and resonances (and Distinctions) > changed a lot. Essence changed a lot. There's some new advantages > that form the core of celestial powers (no more flipping to > Psionics!). > > And it's up for playtest again on Pyramid. [Plug: $15 a year, and > playtest too!] Chapters 2, 3, and 4 got the most changes (if I > recall correctly), but many of the others got minorly touched as > well. (Often > _very_ minorly.) > > The Appendix is not going to be in the book, but it's there for > reference and as far as I know is intended to go up on the web > afterward. > > Also there are all the _previous_ topics! If you haven't been in > on the playtest previously, skim the topics so that we don't > rehash anything that's already been hashed to death. > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:27:45 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: IN> Servitorsf Eli. Flipping through the books while tired turned up nothing, nor did the FAQ -- if the information is Out There, please point me to it. Servitors of Eli in service to another Archangel. They get Eli's rites, and his attunements, and can invoke him. Do they also get the rites of the Archangel they serve? Do they get the dissonance condition? (I recall hearing that they do not.) Do they get the choir attunement for the Archangel they serve, or do they have to buy it? Can they buy choir and servitor attunements from the Archangel they serve at character creation? Can they invoke that Superior as well as invoke Eli? Thanks, Ben Glickler ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:03:24 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Servitorsf Eli. At 11:27 -0500 12/15/99, Ben Glickler wrote: >Flipping through the books while tired turned up nothing, nor did the FAQ -- >if the information is Out There, please point me to it. > >Servitors of Eli in service to another Archangel. They get Eli's rites, and >his attunements, and can invoke him. > >Do they also get the rites of the Archangel they serve? I would say no, at least, not without buying them. >Do they get the dissonance condition? (I recall hearing that they do not.) No. I thought that was stated in Eli's writeup somewhere. It may also be clarified in some of the "Orphans" or "Switching Superiors" stuff in the APG/IPG, in a more generic way. >Do they get the choir attunement for the Archangel they serve, or do they >have to buy it? They have to buy it. (That's implied, but not stated outright, in the Eli writeup in the main book, I think.) >Can they buy choir and servitor attunements from the Archangel they serve at >character creation? I don't think the rules say either way, so it's probably a GM call; I allow this in my games. (I only allow them to buy their *own* Choir's attunement, though -- they're not really attuned to the other Superior's Word.) >Can they invoke that Superior as well as invoke Eli? I've been assuming that they can. The general rule I use for Eli's people is that anything beyond Eli's own stuff costs extra; the one exception is summoning their "in service to" Superior. This seems to be necessary to allow them to properly serve their temp Superior's interests; it's also a two-edged sword.... (I might bias the die roll for the Superior's reaction to being summoned towards the negative side a little -- it's not one of *their* people calling, after all....) In all ways, they're simply Eli's people, ordered by him to serve someone else for a while. This does give them a better opportunity to get stuff from the AA they work for, but Eli's writeup does state this is still hard to do. (Other angels can get the same stuff, but it's much rarer, supposedly.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:11:51 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition At 11:31 -0500 12/15/99, Greg Bilbruck wrote: >When is IN 2nd Edition to be printed? Note that this is *GURPS* In Nomine she's talking about, not a second edition of IN itself. (I tacked on the "2nd ed." to my working copy of GURPS IN as a semi-joke, since the rewrite was fairly far-reaching. The "1st ed." died in final edit, basically, and didn't get to the printer. The version of GURPS IN that's actually published will really be the 1st edition. I assume In Nomine itself will get a second edition when the first printing finally runs out, and there's enough demand to justify a new printing. However, GURPS In Nomine is Elizabeth's trial run for how she wants to reorganize and clarify the main IN book for a second edition. (Minus all the GURPS-specific stuff, of course -- future editions of In Nomine will stay separate from the GURPS system, and keep the IN mechanics.) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:40:34 -0500 From: John Karakash Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition Greg Bilbruck wrote: > > When is IN 2nd Edition to be printed? There are no current (scheduled) plans to do this just yet. Mind you, that doesn't mean that Beth doesn't have an extensive list of changes that would be implemented in the 2nd edition! - -- +============================================= + John Karakash - geek, writer, cook + Code mangler for EMC CLARiiON + mib2300 +============================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:51:15 -0600 From: "Greg Bilbruck" Subject: RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition Ok... Thanks for the clarification. I just spent $85 getting 4 IN books and I was a bit concerned about a 2nd edition on the horizon. I knew about the GURPS IN rules coming out and I assumed that it (GURPS IN) was created to offer different situation resolution engines for IN enthusiasts (in case the 2d6+1d6 resolution was a bit too simplistic for some). Thanks for the clarification. Greg > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > [mailto:owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com]On Behalf Of Walter Milliken > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 11:12 AM > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition > > > At 11:31 -0500 12/15/99, Greg Bilbruck wrote: > >When is IN 2nd Edition to be printed? > > Note that this is *GURPS* In Nomine she's talking about, not a second > edition of IN itself. (I tacked on the "2nd ed." to my working copy of > GURPS IN as a semi-joke, since the rewrite was fairly far-reaching. The > "1st ed." died in final edit, basically, and didn't get to the printer. > The version of GURPS IN that's actually published will really be the 1st > edition. > > I assume In Nomine itself will get a second edition when the > first printing > finally runs out, and there's enough demand to justify a new printing. > > However, GURPS In Nomine is Elizabeth's trial run for how she wants to > reorganize and clarify the main IN book for a second edition. (Minus > all the GURPS-specific stuff, of course -- future editions of In Nomine > will stay separate from the GURPS system, and keep the IN mechanics.) > > > ---Walter > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:15:40 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition At 12:51 -0500 12/15/99, Greg Bilbruck wrote: >Ok... Thanks for the clarification. I just spent $85 getting 4 IN books and >I was a bit concerned about a 2nd edition on the horizon. I doubt a new edition would invalidate much of any existing books -- to the extent I know Elizabeth's plans for IN 2nd ed., it's primarily a reorganization effort, plus some minor clarifications on various matters, most of which are already in the FAQ, the errata, and/or other IN books. >I knew about the GURPS IN rules coming out and I assumed that it (GURPS IN) >was created to offer different situation resolution engines for IN >enthusiasts (in case the 2d6+1d6 resolution was a bit too simplistic for >some). Actually it's aimed more at allowing GURPS enthusiasts to use the IN background, either as a pure campaign or in mixed-genre settings. There probably are some existing In Nomine players who'd prefer to use another game system, but this group wouldn't be big enough to justify the book. Hopefully, adding IN to GURPS will bring in new IN players (albeit using GURPS mechanics), who would help support the main IN line, since most of the IN supplements are more background- than mechanics-oriented. (And GURPS IN includes conversion rules to handle the mechanics stuff when needed.) [BTW, you should edit down the amount you're quoting from messages you're replying to -- we just went through a netiquette thread on this issue here.] - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:57:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] At 1:52 AM -0800 12/15/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >Tarzan, avatar of Jordi (Easy on the stats -- _those_ are the kinds of things that too much of can get us in trouble for, if they're on the public list.) >of the Hollow Earth (founded by the KKK, evidently), and the Bureau, a >collaboration between Dominique and Andromalius to hunt down Renegades. >It's cool. :) The Bureau is highly cool. Now, what would be _evil_ to do to your characters is have them cross over and meet their analogs... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:07:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Servitorsf Eli. At 9:27 AM -0700 12/15/99, Ben Glickler wrote: >Flipping through the books while tired turned up nothing, nor did the FAQ -- >if the information is Out There, please point me to it. Ah, it's because you're tired. The information you seek is indeed in the book, grasshopper. At least mostly. >Servitors of Eli in service to another Archangel. They get Eli's rites, and >his attunements, and can invoke him. Right. >Do they also get the rites of the Archangel they serve? No -- p. 116, last sentence of the 6th full paragraph. Rites should be capitalized there, too. >Do they get the dissonance condition? (I recall hearing that they do not.) Last sentence of the Dissonance paragraph on p. 116. >Do they get the choir attunement for the Archangel they serve, or do they >have to buy it? They have to buy it (for points) and have an explanation (that the GM buys) for why. See the same sentence as for Rites. This one is more extrapolation of early published characters, the sentence itself, and what seems useful for playing. Remember that if you're not bound to a Word, you can _only_ get your Choir's Choir Attunement from that Word (or Servitor Attunements). So a Seraph of Creation can't get the Malakite of Animals attunement, unless he stops being a Seraph of Creation and becomes a Seraph of Animals. >Can they buy choir and servitor attunements from the Archangel they serve at >character creation? Up to the GM. See above. O:> >Can they invoke that Superior as well as invoke Eli? If they have any Rites or attunements from him, or the Superior wills it. ("Or the Superior wills it" is common.) See p. 109, second column, 3rd paragraph and the box on p. 108, under the -10 modifier. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:53:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] At 9:37 PM -0600 12/14/99, M Trent wrote: >>[...] but a lot of what Derek has written seems to have >>been just a straight translation, more or less. > >Which is good. 8) Not actually, as it turns out -- as I think David mentioned over on the Pyramid InNomine board, the original Khalid ("AA of Raghead Truck Bombers," I believe it's been called?) was a very close translation. I wouldn't be surprised if Dominic (aka "The Balseraph in the Cloak") was (were? my conditionals book isn't as clear as it should be) a close translation as well. Eli went far afield, but may have been a conflation between the name and one of the other original French AAs. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:11:01 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> GURPS In Nomine, 2nd edition At 10:31 AM -0600 12/15/99, Greg Bilbruck wrote: >When is IN 2nd Edition to be printed? In Nomine, 2nd ed? When the first edition sells low enough that SJ Games won't be caught with gobs of backstock. Keep buying that main book! GURPS In Nomine "2nd ed" is actually a fairly extensive revamp of the first GURPS In Nomine draft, which has some different mechanics and therefore needs another round of playtest. The "2nd ed" is actually a bit of an in-joke, but it was late at night when I posted that... (If the first instance of GURPS IN had been published, this would be extensive enough a change to be a second edition. It won't go to _print_ as "2nd ed", though, despite the amusement value in that.) (And as a note, ALWAYS be sure to clip your quotes, lest you get the dreaded lecture about, "If you're quoting more than 2/3rds of your message, you're definitely quoting too much!") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:07:15 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> A Jordi Moment >Angel (to itself): "I see no point in telling him I have >germ clients also." > >See: http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/roseisrose/ab.html > >Earl tee-hee! I love it! I love it! - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - --Pablo Picasso ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:09:58 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) >From: Earl Wajenberg Perry Lloyd wrote: > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to my understanding of the > > latest new church policies, relationships with people of other > > religions is much different than it has been earlier this century. > >That is certainly my own impression. At the beginning of the >century, the general attitude appeared to be that Protestants >were the Enemy and barely Christian, if at all, while Eastern >Orthodox were only a shade better. Now, there have been decades >of mutual outreach, and they've made numerous patch-ups with >various other Christian groups, most recently and notably >agreeing with the Copts that they (the Copts) aren't guilty of >the Monophysite heresy, and agreeing with the Lutherans about >justification by faith (one thesis down; 94 to go...). > >Earl Uh, Earl, what do Copts and Monophysite mean, exactly? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever. - --Chinese proverb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:15:32 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN >From: "Kiara S. Legner" Perry rants: > > I personally find this sort of thing to be a useful tool for organizing > > knowledge into a form of understanding. Of course, astrology is also a > > useful tool for this same purpose, as is the Tarot, Psychoanalysis, the > > Kiths (Changeling), Moon Breed and Tribe (Werewolf), Clan (Vampire), > > Band/Choir and Word (In Nomine), and religion. > > > > I guess the only question is, to what end can such a tool be used, or >has >it > > already served its purpose by allowing us some comfort in the belief >that >we > > understand something? > > >Humans have always wanted to classify their worlds, and the Myers-Briggs >test is another useful tool for doing so. Oh, yes, humanity's quest for understanding rivals its quest for feelings of security and battling fear. Perhaps it is b/c it is the same quest, only backed by power. Perhaps its advantage over >Band/Choir is that it is a bit more all-encompassing... Band/Choir >doesn't, >in my opinion, seem to be as inclusive of human personality types - but >more >a way to take human types and twist them into something just a bit alien. More than just a bit, I would say. More like sociopathic. >I would agree that we classify in an attempt to understand things - after >all, if A is like B, and I already think I understand A, then I can >generalize my understanding of A to include B. Which leads to things like >stereotyping... A useful tool when dealing with LOTS of incoming data. > >Which leads to the use I can see with the Myers-Briggs for IN - if you're >trying to get your brain wrapped around a particular concept in IN, why not >reclassify Band/Choir/Word/Archangel/Angel to fit a classification system >with which you're already familiar? > >And yet, do we ever understand anything fully? > >Kiara, INTJ If I ever say that I understand something fully, please, shoot me. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Think, or be damned. - --Bryan Penton ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:20:09 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> MBTI & IN >From: Earl Wajenberg >Perry Lloyd wrote: > > > I personally find this sort of thing to be a useful tool for > > organizing knowledge into a form of understanding. Of course, > > astrology is also a useful tool for this same purpose, > > Band/Choir and Word (In Nomine), and religion. > >I agree with Kiara; I don't think the Bands and Words of IN >form a very complete taxonomy of human personality types. >If the Words had been, say, lined up with the Seven Splendid >Virtues and Seven Deadly Sins, and the Choirs/Bands had been >lined up with the four elements or the seven astrological planets, >it might have been nearer a psychological taxonomy -- if that's >what you want in a game. must . . . stop . . . myself . . . from . . . trying it. > > I guess the only question is, to what end can such a tool be used, > > or has it already served its purpose by allowing us some comfort in > > the belief that we understand something? > >Well, the main use of the system as it is put forward by >Kiersey and Bates, is as a tool to advance understanding between >people of different personality types. Their book on the subject >is "Please Understand Me," and uses the system as a tool to >help the reader understand the perspectives of the other types. >For instance, SJ types tend to dismiss SP types as irresponsible >jerks, while SP types dismiss SJ types as authoritarian jerks. > >Understanding one another, by the way, doesn't seem to be a big >priority for Superiors of any stripe -- a natural result of their >being Word-bound to the Nth. The only exception seems to be Yves, >who appears to understand everyone and be understood by no one. > > > -Perry, ENFP :P > >Of *course* you're dubious about the value of a character taxonomy; >you're a P-type, for whom settling on a decision is the end of the >fun, not the goal you're after... > >Earl :o :P :) - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it. - --Andre Gide ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:20:50 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) Perry Lloyd wrote: > Uh, Earl, what do Copts and Monophysite mean, exactly? The Coptic Church is the native Egyptian Christian church, which was there before Islam. Copts have their own liturgical language, Coptic, derived from pre-Arabic Egyptian. The Monophysite heresy is one of many beliefs springing up in early Christian history concerning the nature of Christ. The now-orthodox belief is that Christ is simultaneously perfectly human and perfectly divine. The Monophysite belief is that Christ had only one nature, which was divine; he was only pretending to be human. Quite a lot of Christian Gnostics were actually Monophysite. (Shall I discuss what Gnosticism is?) The Copts *sounded* Monophysite to the rest of Christendom because, so far as I can tell, of different terminology. Most of Christendom says Christ has two natures in one person, a divine nature and a human one. The Copts express the same idea (or one very similar) by saying that Christ has a single nature in which the divinity totally includes the humanity. And if you think *that* is hair-splitting, it is like night and day compared to some of the other variations on Christology. As our David Edelstein said in the GM's Guide (to drag this back to In Nomine), most angels would rather dance on the head of a pin that try to figure out the differences. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:04:00 -0600 From: "Eeyore" Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) - -----Original Message----- From: Earl Wajenberg To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 1:29 PM Subject: Re: IN> INS/MV [SPOILERS] (Was: What Demons are Really After) >Perry Lloyd wrote: > >> Uh, Earl, what do Copts and Monophysite mean, exactly? > >The Coptic Church is the native Egyptian Christian church, which >was there before Islam. Copts have their own liturgical language, >Coptic, derived from pre-Arabic Egyptian. Now mostly practiced in Ethiopia. We have a rather religiously and nationally diverse group of East African immigrants working for us. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:06:40 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: IN> The Final Trumpet question... (Well, sort of, anyway.) I'm working on a project that requires information from FT, but as luck would have it I can't find my copy anywhere! Could somebody please email me a list of each of the seven events that spur the blowing of one of the trumpets, if this doesn't count as a copyright violation? Prodigal Demon of Calling In to Tech Support Without the Product Nearby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:05:28 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Copts and Robers In a message dated 12/15/99 11:50:57 AM, Eeyore1@prodigy.net writes: << Now mostly practiced in Ethiopia. We have a rather religiously and nationally diverse group of East African immigrants working for us. J. Michael Neal >> Actually, if I'm remembering correctly, the Ethiopian church is *not* actually the same as the Coptic Church, even though they're in communion (don't ask...) and share some liturgies. The largest difference is that the Ethiopian Church actually considers the Book of Enoch canonical. The book of Enoch is the 'Angels and Demons' pseudographic apocrypha (not written by the claimed author = pseudographic, not considered appropriate for theology formulation = apocryphal; also note that this is from everyone else's point of view *except* the Ethiopian Church) and the original source text for the Grigori. Am I making sense? I hope so... Well, to forge on... The Copts are now in communion with Rome, while the Ethiopian church is in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church (oh, well, ask ... the answer is that 'in communion' means that a member of one church can participate fully in all liturgical activities of the other, but the property of being in communion is not extensive). I'm not even sure how large the Ethiopian Church is anymore, but it's the second oldest, after the Armenian Church, although the difference is less than a century. In Nomine tie-ins? 1) Read the Book of Enoch. It's really interesting from an In Nomine standpoint. 2) If you read church history, you can steal things and use them in campaigns. 3) I personally like to map heavenly politics to church politics for amusement value. Novalis is very 'social gospel.' Eli worked with the Rastafarians. David prefers the Orthodox to the Catholics, and Jews above all. Laurence is for the Ecumenical movement, Dominic is against it. Jordi is following the Celtic Christianity movement with some interest but little hope. Janus occasionally shows up to meetings of the Jesus Seminar. Jean is behind all of the cell towers going up on church properties. And so on... Mark (Who wants to know if he can get Rambling Essence for this...) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1461 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.