From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 23 12:30:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04315 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:30:37 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA31954 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:28:43 -0600 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:28:43 -0600 Message-Id: <199912231828.MAA31954@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1469 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 23 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1469 In this digest: Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary Re: IN> Undead Redemption Re: IN> Undead Redemption Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary IN> Re: Using Supplements IN> Re: Using Supplements IN> Re: Using Supplements Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary IN> Trapped on Earth IN> Joseph Smith documentary Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary Re: IN> Trapped on Earth Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary Re: IN> Trapped on Earth Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Trapped on Earth Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:33:15 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary > why I see him as being inclined toward applying a "test to destruction" > approach to any new religions, with the view that if a religion is I can buy this for a dollar. I like to envision Dominic's servitors working both sides of this. On the one hand, you have his testers, putting the new religion through the crucible, and on the other hand, you have his protectors, making sure that overenthusiastic mortals don't feel too inclined to participate in "testing" the new religion. Plus, could you see David supporting the new religion? He's the big fan of harsh tests, and he's a big fan of banding together. That's why he likes Judaism. Surely he'd like Mormonism for similar reasons > The Book of Mormon is the one which speaks of Christ coming to the Americas > to teach the natives, isn't it? That one doctrine alone would, IMO, be > enough reason for Dominic to distrust it until he could test the new > movement. That depends on whether or not Dominic knows something that the rest of Christianity doesn't. :-) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:35:38 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Undead Redemption > As in the fiery chariot of Elijah? Is this a piece of canon? Rikbiel, one of Gabriel's mightiest Ofanim, is the Angel of Being A Fiery Chariot That Takes Nice Folks To Heaven When The World Bites It, and is mentioned in the Final Trumpet. > Earl Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:46:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Undead Redemption Ben Glickler wrote: > Rikbiel, one of Gabriel's mightiest Ofanim, is the Angel of Being A > Fiery Chariot That Takes Nice Folks To Heaven When The World Bites It, and is mentioned in the Final Trumpet. "Angel of the Rapture" for short? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:45:14 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary From: "Ben Glickler" > > why I see him as being inclined toward applying a "test to destruction" > > approach to any new religions, with the view that if a religion is > > I can buy this for a dollar. I like to envision Dominic's servitors working > both sides of this. On the one hand, you have his testers, putting the new > religion through the crucible, and on the other hand, you have his > protectors, making sure that overenthusiastic mortals don't feel too > inclined to participate in "testing" the new religion. I like this idea, and will now steal it for my own use. *g* You're right; in such a testing situation, I can see Dominic doing exactly that. After all, if the new movement turns out not to be Heretical, he cannot view his actions with a clear conscience unless he worked to minimise any needless suffering. OTOH, if a movement is not heretical, and if one of its founders has a Destiny of matyrdom... > Plus, could you see David supporting the new religion? He's the big fan of > harsh tests, and he's a big fan of banding together. That's why he likes > Judaism. Surely he'd like Mormonism for similar reasons I could also see Michael supporting them, once they proved themselves. After all, not every War is fought with weaponry. The fact that they defeated the forces arrayed against them, if only by outliving them, would IMO warrant Michael granting them at the very least his respect. But if any AA would have become a patron to Smith's church, I think David would be the natural choice, for the exact reasons you listed. > > The Book of Mormon is the one which speaks of Christ coming to the > Americas > > to teach the natives, isn't it? That one doctrine alone would, IMO, be > > enough reason for Dominic to distrust it until he could test the new > > movement. > > That depends on whether or not Dominic knows something that the rest of > Christianity doesn't. Or just the fact that this wasn't mentioned in any of the books held holy to other religions for the eighteen centuries preceding it. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:25:19 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: Using Supplements > >>>So? So what? Not everyone's commentary here on the list needs to be >aimed at gearing people up for "BUYING SUPPLEMENTS!!!"<<< > >And what on Earth makes you think I believed otherwise? I'm just pointing >out an irony. Yes again communication is foiled by lack of tonal qualities in the written word. SFAIC, usually irony is communicated through vocal tonality. But, then again, who needs tonality to understand communication? > >>> I mean, sure it's a living and people saying saying that might >threaten >that is kinda scary, but . . . <<< > >I think you are making a few erroneous assumptions about my motives, here. Quite possibly, I tend to do that. Keeps me on my toes. >I write In Nomine supplements for fun and recognition. The pay is a nice >little bonus, and I wouldn't work as hard on them as I do if I weren't >getting paid, but I'm not a professional game writer (if "professional" is >taken to mean "doing it for a living"). It's strictly a spare time, extra >pocket money thing for me. What?! No passion!? Coolness. Sounds like you're in the position that I'd like to be in myself one day, only I hope to do it for more than pocket money (not more money, more reasons). :P I myself find it ironic that you're writing stuff for In Nomine since, IIRC, you're agnostic/athesist. (Though I could be wrong, here.) > >>>chill out. I'd bet that without people who choose to think outside the >box >provided by supplements and the rules and game world of the main text, we >wouldn't HAVE a lot of supplements for our games to begin with.<<< > >I'm chilled. Do you imagine that I run my own IN campaign confined to >official canon? Not since you've just implied that you don't. :) I actually don't know of ANYONE who runs their games strictly by the rules except for those who haven't been doing it for a while. But, supplements can be very useful for campaign ideas. Then again, so can your local newspaper or The Onion http://www.theonion.com/ (Dec 15th Issue names Death as Man of the Millennium, won't Saminga be pleased! :) > >>>While it's true that supplements probably really are the lifeblood of >the >RPG industry, that doesn't mean that we all have to say "Supplements aren't > >just good, they're Grrrrrrreat!"<<< > >One straw man, duly torched. Straw Man: (1) a bundle of straw man to look like a man, as for a scarecrow (2) a perjured witness (3) a person of little importance; nonentity Perjured: guilty of perjury; having lied under oath: as a perjured witness Straw Men aren't we all. (Sorry, gals, I guess you're Straw Women.) :P - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Asparagus inspires gentle thoughts. - --Charles Lamb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:41:23 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: IN> Re: Using Supplements - ----- Original Message ----- From: Perry Lloyd > Straw Man: (1) a bundle of straw man to look like a man, as for a scarecrow > (2) a perjured witness (3) a person of little importance; nonentity I think it was meant as a fallacy, id est: (4) The straw man fallacy is committed when a person misrepresents the argument or theory of another person and then, on the basis of his misrepresentation, purports to refute the real argument or theory. The refutation is irrelevant to the merits of the real theory because the view in question has been misdescribed. Gregory (On my way to collect some Essence from Asmodeus) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:39:58 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Re: Using Supplements Message text written by "Perry Lloyd" >I myself find it ironic that you're writing stuff for In Nomine since, IIRC, you're agnostic/athesist. (Though I could be wrong, here.)< Why? I imagine most of the people who write stuff for White Wolf (or play in the WoD) don't really believe in vampires or werewolves, either. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:48:06 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary > > > The Book of Mormon is the one which speaks of Christ coming to the > > Americas > > > to teach the natives, isn't it? That one doctrine alone would, IMO, be > > > enough reason for Dominic to distrust it until he could test the new > > > movement. > > > > That depends on whether or not Dominic knows something that the rest of > > Christianity doesn't. > > Or just the fact that this wasn't mentioned in any of the books held holy to > other religions for the eighteen centuries preceding it. ;;;) Oddly enough, neither is Dominic. Or Yves. Or David. Or Blandine. Or Eli (mostly). Or Jordi. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:43:40 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Trapped on Earth >>>Not really. I mean, yeah you could theoretically do it. However, unless you have the Celestial hog-tied and immobilized completely, he could still just suicide. Then he's out again.<<< No. The Light of Heaven does _celestial_ damage. He gets fried, he's dead, as in really, really gone. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:49:39 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Joseph Smith documentary >>>One of the duties I see Judgement carrying out is that of Judging each new religion, and determining which are worthy (in Dominic's eyes) od continued existence.<<< Not in canon. Dominic doesn't decide what religions humans can and cannot follow, or try to destroy all those he disapproves of. He just encourages those he likes, and tries to keep celestials from meddling otherwise. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:55:40 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary From: "Ben Glickler" > > > > Or just the fact that this wasn't mentioned in any of the books held holy > > to other religions for the eighteen centuries preceding it. ;;;) > > Oddly enough, neither is Dominic. Or Yves. Or David. Or Blandine. Or Eli > (mostly). Or Jordi. By that logic, Dominic needs to start prosecuting every single celestial being in existence for Heresy. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:19:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Trapped on Earth At 3:43 PM -0500 12/22/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Not really. I mean, yeah you could theoretically do it. However, >unless >you have the Celestial hog-tied and immobilized completely, he could still >just suicide. Then he's out again.<<< > >No. The Light of Heaven does _celestial_ damage. He gets fried, he's dead, >as in really, really gone. I'm not sure that a Tether would do damage to a vessel-killed demon on its way to its Heart and Trauma -- my inclination would be to make it _painful_, but not actually do enough damage to strip away any Forces. I mean, from all the descriptions I've managed to glean from the book, it doesn't seem like the celestial is hanging around in celestial form -- or that it's returning to the celestial realm in the normal way. Something about "recoalescing" around a Heart. But hey, if one is worried about a celestial vessel-suiciding, just encase the limbs in concrete blocks or something. What's he going to do, hold his breath? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:21:43 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary From: "David Edelstein" > >One of the duties I see Judgement carrying out is that of Judging each > > new religion, and determining which are worthy (in Dominic's eyes) > > of continued existence. > > Not in canon. That's why I stressed that this was my own take on things, although perhaps I didn't make that as clear as I could have. > Dominic doesn't decide what religions humans can and cannot > follow, or try to destroy all those he disapproves of. That isn't what I was trying to say at all. I apologise if I wasn't clearer before, but this is not the goal that I envisioned Dominic pursuing. (This is all so utterly IMO that nobody should worry about its canonical status. *g*) When a new religion claiming direct divine inspiration appears, Dominic's duty is to test it to see if celestial intervention actually did occur. If it did, then he must judge its Truth, with the underlying assumption being that if it is not truly a divine religion, it will not last. But in order to test its divinity or lack thereof, the religion must be tested in much the same way that David tests humans. If it has Truth, it will endure despite any prosecution of its followers. If it does not, then it will wither on its own once Dominic stops testing it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:00:06 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary > > Oddly enough, neither is Dominic. Or Yves. Or David. Or Blandine. Or > Eli > > (mostly). Or Jordi. > > By that logic, Dominic needs to start prosecuting every single celestial > being in existence for Heresy. Right. And he isn't. Just my subtle attempt to say that That Which Is Biblical Canon is not necessarily what you define heresy against in the In Nomine game. ;-) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:00:06 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary > > Oddly enough, neither is Dominic. Or Yves. Or David. Or Blandine. Or > Eli > > (mostly). Or Jordi. > > By that logic, Dominic needs to start prosecuting every single celestial > being in existence for Heresy. Right. And he isn't. Just my subtle attempt to say that That Which Is Biblical Canon is not necessarily what you define heresy against in the In Nomine game. ;-) Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:24:36 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary From: "Ben Glickler" > > Right. And he isn't. Just my subtle attempt to say that That Which Is > Biblical Canon is not necessarily what you define heresy against in the In > Nomine game. ;-) Until somebody produces a Bible in the IN world which talks about Jesus visiting the Americas, however... *g* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 84 22:14:47 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Trapped on Earth > > But hey, if one is worried about a celestial vessel-suiciding, just > encase the limbs in concrete blocks or something. What's he going to do, > hold his breath? hehehe CHOP OFF IT'S HANDS!!!!!!!! NAIL IT TO THE WALL!!!!!!!!! GLUE IT TO THE FLOOR!!!!!!!!! Woohoo! Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:32:43 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) >From: David Edelstein > >I myself find it ironic that you're writing stuff for In Nomine since, >IIRC, you're agnostic/athesist. (Though I could be wrong, here.)< > >Why? I imagine most of the people who write stuff for White Wolf (or play >in the WoD) don't really believe in vampires or werewolves, either. I don't feel that angels/demons can be placed into the same category as vampires and werewolves, at least in terms of the amount of serious belief that exists in them. I would be surprised to learn that less than 50% of the U.S., for instance, believed that angels existed. Angels / Demons / Spirits appear within the *serious* religious belief structures of just about every religion I can think of, from the various Native American religions, to the Taoists, the Buddhists, the Christians, Hindus, Jews, Musliums, Shintos, various native religions of Africa and Australia, ancient Greeks and Romans. The only serious belief structure that I think of that doesn't believe in spirits would be Science, and that's not all scientists, certainly. Granted also, that the idea of the vampire has existed in just about every culture as well. However, I also feel that serious belief in vampires has waned, where belief in Angels and Devils has not. A recent poll, IIRC, revealed that more peolpe in the United States believed in possession by the Devil than believed in Haunted Houses. (something like 60% versus 35% or something like that, I think it was on NPR, or Fresh Air) So, I think Angels/Devils are a different thing altogether from vampires and werewolves. I would hope that most game writers who write about teleporters and Jedi and people who don't exist in real life don't seriously believe that they *do* exist in real life. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Asparagus inspires gentle thoughts. - --Charles Lamb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 23:42:52 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) >From: "Perry Lloyd" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) >Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:32:43 PST > >>From: David Edelstein > >> >I myself find it ironic that you're writing stuff for In Nomine since, >>IIRC, you're agnostic/athesist. (Though I could be wrong, here.)< >> >>Why? I imagine most of the people who write stuff for White Wolf (or play >>in the WoD) don't really believe in vampires or werewolves, either. I'm kind of curious. Do you think you can tell whether a writer is an atheist/practising Christian/ pagan etc. from reading a sourcebook that they wrote? >I would be surprised to learn that less than 50% of >the U.S., for instance, believed that angels existed. (Nothing would surprise me about what people in the US believed ;) ) jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 02:51:36 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) In a message dated 12/23/99 1:49:12 AM Central Standard Time, j_hart@hotmail.com writes: << (Nothing would surprise me about what people in the US believed ;) ) >> Grrrr! I'm insulted! I call upon the Archangel Elvis to smite thee! He who loves us tender, and shepherds us away from Heartbreak Hotel! Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 01:39:25 -0800 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> Trapped on Earth - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth McCoy" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 1:19 PM Subject: Re: IN> Trapped on Earth > But hey, if one is worried about a celestial vessel-suiciding, just > encase the limbs in concrete blocks or something. What's he going to do, > hold his breath? It's surprisingly hard to keep someone from killing themselves. What if they bit off their tongue and then tried to inhale it with great force, jamming it in their windpipe? Yes, it sucks, but it's better than being held captive, possibly...especially if you're a demon who can get dissonance through being tied up. And then there's the question of how to prevent someone from going to the Marches, still... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:26:56 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) [ snip stuff about americans believing in angels -- what did that have to do with the question, anyway? ] Perry, Why is it ironic that an atheist would write supplements for In Nomine? I am confidently atheist, and I run an In Nomine game where God exists and is good, and Lucifer exists and is not. Is that also ironic? Why? Is it ironic for a religious person to play this game, even though it contradicts their religious beliefs at every turn? How do Christian people play this game, or are they ironic too for playing a game without a definitive Christ? I'm inclined to think that your premise -- whatever it is, and I'm not sure -- is wrong, and that there's nothing odd or ironic about an atheist playing/running/writing an In Nomine game. It's not ironic at all for any open-minded person of any religious background to play this game. The more, the merrier. Many of us grew up on Gods and Avatars with AD&D. When you get down to In Nomine, it really ain't all that different. Except that it's much more fun. Ben ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1469 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.