From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Dec 24 00:57:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19729 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:57:12 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id AAA27728 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:51:14 -0600 Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:51:14 -0600 Message-Id: <199912240651.AAA27728@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1470 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, December 24 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1470 In this digest: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) IN> Rikbiel Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Using Supplements Re: IN> Using Supplements Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements Re: IN> Trapped on Earth Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Trapped on Earth Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) IN> Balseraphs (Re: Trapped on Earth) Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements Re: IN> Balseraphs (Re: Trapped on Earth) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Trapped on Earth Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements IN> Re: Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Speculations (Re: The Holy Trinity) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Trapped on Earth Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements Re: IN> Using Supplements Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Using Supplements Re: IN> Balseraphs (Re: Trapped on Earth) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) Re: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:42:05 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Glickler > Why is it ironic that an atheist would write supplements for In Nomine? I'm going to have to agree with Ben on this point. It's really no different then having a Catholic play Henry VIII, or a Protestant playing the Cardinal in _A Man for All Seasons_. And when you get right down to it, it's no more ironic than a male writer using female characters (or vice versa) in his/her work -- which I don't find ironic at all. G ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:53:46 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) >From: "Ben Glickler" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Many of us grew up on Gods and Avatars with AD&D. When you >get down to In Nomine, it really ain't all that different. Dude, that last sentence actually answers your question completely. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:08:07 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Rikbiel >>>"Angel of the Rapture" for short?<<< No, Angel of Ascension. His writeup is in the Liber Reliquarum. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:18:25 -0700 From: "Ben Glickler" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) > >Many of us grew up on Gods and Avatars with AD&D. When you > >get down to In Nomine, it really ain't all that different. > > > > Dude, that last sentence actually answers your question completely. It does? Wow. I'm so smart. :) Now, if only I were smart enough to find out how it answers my question completely. Must be all the fnords in it. > jo Ben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:19:01 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Beliefs in RL >>>The only serious belief structure that I think of that doesn't believe in spirits would be Science, and that's not all scientists, certainly.<<< You're wrong on two counts. First, science doesn't, strictly speaking, "not believe" in spirits. Rather, science has no position on them other than that there's no evidence for their existence. While individual scientists/rationalists may proclaim their disbelief of something, there is no "scientism" ideology that declares the existence or nonexistence of anything. Secondly, there are a number of "serious" belief systems don't include spirits or suchlike being in their cosmologies. Pure Buddhism, for one - -- while the popular Buddhist offshoots practiced by many today include entire pantheons of gods, demons, and the like, Buddhism in its original form included no such beings, and in fact repudiated their existence. Confucianism, for another, includes no supernatural beings. >>>So, I think Angels/Devils are a different thing altogether from vampires and werewolves.<<< Not as far as I'm concerned. But even if you're judging the "seriousness" of a belief by how many people hold it, that still has nothing to do with whether or not I can appreciate and write about imaginary beings without actually believing in them. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:43:45 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Using Supplements From: Jo Hart > Actually, we all got out of the habit of using supplements when we were > playing Vampire. It was MBO (main book only) because even though I picked up > a few of the supplements, I never thought they did much except clutter up > the game I had originally liked enough to run. one of the things that put me off vampire and other ww stuff was that it seemed they made things deliberatley mysterious in the main books, then revealed those mysteries in the supplements. sort of bullying you into buying them if you want to keep up with the learning curve. my flatmate's been buying all the vamp books as they came out this year, because each has a little snippet about their overall meta-plot-thing about gehenna. a pretty clever selling tactic, but a bit morally dubious if you ask me. of course, roleplayers aren't exactly the best group to look among for the virtuous :) i've liked the in nomine supplements because they tend to "add extra stuff" rather than give vital information that isn't in the main book. the core book covers pretty much everything, just in a very vague way. i like this coz it gives me a gameworld to visualise in one piece, so to speak, but leaves me lots of room to add my own rubbish. the sourcebooks give extra detail and introduce a few new things, but aren't important to seeing the whole picture. (as it turned out, i have bought nearly all the sourcebooks anyway, but i'm a bit of a fanboy when it comes to games i run) just my 2p liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:52:52 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Using Supplements From: David Edelstein > I think you are making a few erroneous assumptions about my motives, here. > I write In Nomine supplements for fun and recognition. The pay is a nice > little bonus, and I wouldn't work as hard on them as I do if I weren't > getting paid, but I'm not a professional game writer (if "professional" is > taken to mean "doing it for a living"). It's strictly a spare time, extra > pocket money thing for me. I can't remember where i saw it, but there was a quote from some interview with a rpg writer. The topic was "Advice on writing and publishing roleplaying games for profit". The answer was "Don't". liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:01:02 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Joseph Smith documentary From: Jo Hart > To find out why he did it. If he really was delivering a message from God -- > well, even Dominic can't argue with that. well, that was supposedly what gabriel was doing, and dominic managed to argue with her. mind you, she is a nutjob liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:10:18 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements From: Perry Lloyd > :P I myself find it ironic that you're writing stuff for In > Nomine since, IIRC, you're agnostic/athesist. (Though I could be wrong, > here.) i wouldn't really call it ironic, since IN isn't really adhering to any official religions. not even that weird, really. i doubt the guys who write the hercules tv show come from greece :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:17:17 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Trapped on Earth From: Elizabeth McCoy > But hey, if one is worried about a celestial vessel-suiciding, just > encase the limbs in concrete blocks or something. What's he going to do, > hold his breath? bah, if he's a real man (erm, demon), he'll bite his tongue off and then choke on the blood liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:19:59 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) From: Perry Lloyd > A recent poll, IIRC, revealed that more peolpe in the United States believed > in possession by the Devil than believed in Haunted Houses. (something like > 60% versus 35% or something like that, I think it was on NPR, or Fresh Air) 60% of americans actually believe in the devil? that's kinda scary erm, no insult to any of you lot who actually do believe in the devil, btw liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:25:45 -0800 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Beliefs in RL >>>I'm kind of curious. Do you think you can tell whether a writer is an atheist/practising Christian/ pagan etc. from reading a sourcebook that they wrote?<<< I think you were actually addressing this to Perry. But in my experience, Christian beliefs on the part of a game writer are occasionally (but rarely) evident. Pagan writers seem more prone to inserting their own beliefs in games. But political beliefs tend to be more glaringly obvious than religious beliefs. >>>(Nothing would surprise me about what people in the US believed ;) )<<< Troll. It's true that religious extremism is more common here than most places in Europe. But if you're tallying the "ignorant dufus" percentage, I don't think America suffers more than any other country. Ours just tend to get taken more seriously for some reason. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:32:00 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) From: Jo Hart > >From: "Ben Glickler" > >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > >Many of us grew up on Gods and Avatars with AD&D. When you > >get down to In Nomine, it really ain't all that different. > Dude, that last sentence actually answers your question completely. only if you don't consider monotheism to be just another kind of mythology, albeit one with a lot more resonance in the modern world liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:38:40 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Trapped on Earth In a message dated 12/23/99 3:40:12 AM Central Standard Time, thealien@dangerzone.org writes: << It's surprisingly hard to keep someone from killing themselves. What if they bit off their tongue and then tried to inhale it with great force, jamming it in their windpipe? Yes, it sucks, but it's better than being held captive, possibly...especially if you're a demon who can get dissonance through being tied up. >> I suppose it would be a cop-out to allow a Windie or a Thief to escape dissonance by going to the Marches. :) Unrelated Question: Does a Balseraph have to verbally state the lie he is attempting to impose? Or can he send the belief through sheer will? Example: Billy the Balseraph makes himself believe that he is the President of Texaco Industries. When meeting someone, does he actually have to say, "Hi! I'm the President of Texaco Industries!" or can he just make the person think it without saying a word. What if the person in question had reason to believe that Billy was President of Texaco Industries, such as one of Billy's Servants telling the person that Billy was Texaco President, or perhaps Billy is wearing a T-Shirt with the words "I am President of Texaco Industries" written on it with magic marker. Just curious. Reverend Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:37:28 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL From: David Edelstein > Troll. It's true that religious extremism is more common here than most > places in Europe. But if you're tallying the "ignorant dufus" > percentage, I don't think America suffers more than any other country. > Ours just tend to get taken more seriously for some reason. teehee. that may be true, but us brits like it when people conform to stereotype. taking the mickey out of backwards americans is a national hobby :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:40:16 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL From: David Edelstein > >>>So, I think Angels/Devils are a different thing altogether from vampires and werewolves.<<< > Not as far as I'm concerned. But even if you're judging the > "seriousness" of a belief by how many people hold it, that still has > nothing to do with whether or not I can appreciate and write about > imaginary beings without actually believing in them. exactamundo. i've played in a modern-day magey game based on occult and satanic gubbins. certainly no one involved was actually a satanist. it was just another source for some interesting ideas not to mention the fact that there actually *are* vampires in IN :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:52:04 PST From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) >From: "Liam Astley" >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: >Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) >Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:32:00 -0000 > >From: Jo Hart > > > >From: "Ben Glickler" > > >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > > >Many of us grew up on Gods and Avatars with AD&D. When you > > >get down to In Nomine, it really ain't all that different. > > > Dude, that last sentence actually answers your question completely. > >only if you don't consider monotheism to be just another kind of mythology, >albeit one with a lot more resonance in the modern world > Yeah, but that's actually the premise of the game, isn't it? If it isn't coming across in the published stuff, something isn't working. jo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:00:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Balseraphs (Re: Trapped on Earth) At 2:38 PM -0500 12/23/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >Unrelated Question: >Does a Balseraph have to verbally state the lie he is attempting to impose? I think it says so in the main book... "A deceived viction will consider almost anything the Balseraph _says_ to be the absolute truth." (Emphasis mine.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:03:49 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements In a message dated 12/23/99 11:27:41 AM, esp.horsepie@btinternet.com writes: >i wouldn't really call it ironic, since IN isn't really adhering to any >official religions. not even that weird, really. i doubt the guys who write >the hercules tv show come from greece :) > > >liam Actually, the ironic part would be if Hercules/Xena had a Classics Proffesor on their payroll. So, as an extension, an Athiest writing for In Nomine is *not* ironic, but a Theologan writing for In Nomine would be. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:08:15 -0500 From: "Gregory Gietzen" Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs (Re: Trapped on Earth) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Elizabeth McCoy > almost anything the Balseraph _says_ to be the absolute truth." I'm not disputing here, just calling in what I see as a salient point. On page 24 of the APG, under "More Sophisticated Uses of [Seraphim] Resonance," the book details how a Seraph can pick up non-verbal lies. (A non-police officer wearing a police uniform, someone passing counterfeit money, for example.) To my mind, this would suggest that the Balseraphs' power would involve the ability to convince someone that the money is good or the uniform is real, despite the small inconsistencies (missing badge, horns on the President, etc). But I arrive at that conclusion only through a sort of IN obversion, so I could be very wrong. G ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:28:52 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) From: Jo Hart > Yeah, but that's actually the premise of the game, isn't it? If it isn't > coming across in the published stuff, something isn't working. well, yeah, that's what got me interested in the game in the first place. the whole monotheistic thing gives the game an extra edge. doesn't mean i have to believe in it any more than i'd believe in the Forgotten Realms gods, though liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:24:34 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Trapped on Earth >From: Elizabeth McCoy > > But hey, if one is worried about a celestial vessel-suiciding, just > > encase the limbs in concrete blocks or something. What's he going to do, > > hold his breath? Well, why not? With sufficient Will rolls, since Celestials don't need to sleep, I'd give some chance for the Celestial not to pass out, until he actually passes away.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalah of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:29:47 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL At 1:19 PM -0800 12/23/99, David Edelstein wrote: > >Not as far as I'm concerned. But even if you're judging the >"seriousness" of a belief by how many people hold it, that still has >nothing to do with whether or not I can appreciate and write about >imaginary beings without actually believing in them. Put another way... I know a fair number of people who throw salt over their shoulder when they spill it, or who follow their Astrological profiles and act upon them. That doesn't mean David (or anyone) might *not* believe those things but treat them as real for a work of fiction. - -- Eric Alfred Burns - Habbalah of Belaboring the Point ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:32:32 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements From: > So, as an extension, an Athiest writing for In Nomine is *not* ironic, but a > Theologan writing for In Nomine would be. i reckon it'd only be ironic if In Nomine was actually written by an angel or maybe a pagan god :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:40:45 -0500 (EST) From: "J. Michael Smith" Subject: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL As an atheist, I honestly don't know what the big deal is. In Nomine is a fictional roleplaying game. I don't have any trouble portraying angels and demons. I don't think, "Man, this is presenting something counter to my worldview," everytime I write an adventure or campaign. I don't try to conciously push any heavy-handed philosophies either, although I'm sure I bring my own views to the game when I GM or play. I just try to make the characters and story interesting for my group. Actually, I find In Nomine, Werewolf, and similar games interesting because they do NOT agree with my beliefs. Those games challenge my views and those of my players to at least some degree. Let's be honest too-no religion really agrees with In Nomine. I have seen far more Christians offended by In Nomine than atheists. No religion has it quite "right" in the In Nomine Universe. Sure, a lot of religious groups believe in good and evil spirits, but they don't all have them fighting in a great war. Most don't mention choirs or bands or symphonies. Most don't mention the heirarchy of worded angels and demons. I'm not aware of any that mention Nybbas. (And I'm still trying to figure out what Buddhist sect believes in good and evil spirits.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:40:19 -0400 (EDT) From: dweaver1@ic3.ithaca.edu Subject: Re: IN> Speculations (Re: The Holy Trinity) > And no one likes my belief that Eli should be 30 pages of "This Space Left > Intentionally Blank". Foo. :) > > - Em *I* like it. Eli is 100% CDaU. He's the Mystery Archangel and if you define him you hold him down and mess up a bunch of plot hooks. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:22:43 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Martin Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Liam Astley wrote: > 60% of americans actually believe in the devil? that's kinda scary Neil Postman gives this stat too (in "Building a Bridge to the Eighteenth Century"). He comments that he's in denial about it -- that he has to be, in order to write at all. It really isn't *that* depressing, when you think about it. Given that the figure was closer to 100% not so long ago, the humanists have been making a great deal of advancement. And it's so nice to be able to blame something much more powerufl than you for everything bad that happens fnord. That the universe is uncaring, indifferent, and inimical to human happiness is at least as depressing a thought. To put this back on In Nomine: Diabolical cults don't last. The GMG says so. However, in the Marches, they explain an attunement that Beleth gives where a demon can frighten a dreamer into burning all their Essence into a ward against that demon. The demon then *gets* this Essence. I theorize that every time a human tries hard enough to avoid demonic influence, Essence is generated that is sent to Hell. In order for this to work, however, they have to *really* *believe* in the corrupting principle that they are avoiding (so dualistic philosophies will work just as well for Lucifer as the monistic philosophies will for God: ref GMG). Until recently, belief in the Devil, or something close, was near 100%. It's been going down. Why? Well, some angelic counterpart of Nybbas is working to reduce the influence that Lucifer has on the minds of humanity. He's gotten to almost half of the Americans, and they don't feed Hell anymore. Hell's losing a good amount of Essence from this, but they don't know how to deal with it, other than by forcing more souls to their Fates. Those who go on sybaritic parties are usually accused of turning away from God. Turning from God nowadays usually involves turning from the Other Side as well. So maybe *that's* what Eli's doing. I'll stop rambling now. Proud part of the other 40%, Michael Martin "It is no one's privilege to despise another. It is only a hard-won right after long experience." -- Isaac Asimov, "C-Chute" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 00:57:34 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL From: J. Michael Smith > mention the heirarchy of worded angels and demons. I'm not aware of any > that mention Nybbas. (And I'm still trying to figure out what Buddhist sect > believes in good and evil spirits.) i have to admit to being half-asleep. for a few moments i thought you were going on about a buddhist sect that believed in nybbas... liam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 01:18:56 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL From: Michael Martin > It really isn't *that* depressing, when you think about it. Given that > the figure was closer to 100% not so long ago, the humanists have been > making a great deal of advancement. i guess so, as long as the other 40% aren't worshipping yog-sothoth or something liam ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:33:13 -0600 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) From: "Michael Martin" > > Those who go on sybaritic parties are usually accused of turning away from > God. Turning from God nowadays usually involves turning from the Other > Side as well. > > So maybe *that's* what Eli's doing. And maybe that's Kobal's big joke, as well? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 84 03:09:26 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Trapped on Earth - - It's surprisingly hard to keep someone from killing themselves. What > if they bit off their tongue and then tried to inhale it with great force, > jamming it in their windpipe? Yes, it sucks, but it's better than being > held captive, possibly...especially if you're a demon who can get dissonance > through being tied up. CUT IT OUT!!! No more problem. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Mar 84 18:51:40 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL > >>>So, I think Angels/Devils are a different thing altogether from vampires > and werewolves.<<< But Using Your Logic so is Santa Clause, like a zillion kids believe in him. From Different countries and in different cultures, so does he count as serious belief as well? Of course Believing in Santa Clause is no less ridiculous than believing in angel and demons nor an all powerful god. And I know he exists 'cos I saw him in the department store yesterday....or not... Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 84 18:44:20 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements > i wouldn't really call it ironic, since IN isn't really adhering to any > official religions. not even that weird, really. i doubt the guys who write > the hercules tv show come from greece :) ROTFL {Azrael Reads again} ROTFL {Azrael Reads again} ROTFL Continiue Ad Infinitum Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 84 11:06:12 PST From: "Azrael" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements > > So, as an extension, an Athiest writing for In Nomine is *not* ironic, but > a > > Theologan writing for In Nomine would be. > > i reckon it'd only be ironic if In Nomine was actually written by an angel > > or maybe a pagan god Here Here or Amen, Brother Or Whatever else You wish me to say in agreement Azrael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:36:34 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Using Supplements From: Azrael > Here Here or Amen, Brother > Or Whatever else You wish me to say in agreement well, you could simply sign your agreement here, at the bottom of this scroll. in your blood, if possible. old family tradition. liam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:41:07 -0000 From: "Liam Astley" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL From: Azrael > But Using Your Logic so is Santa Clause, like a zillion kids believe in him. From Different countries and in different cultures, so does he count as serious belief as well? > well, that's kind of spurious. christianity is a "serious religion", whether or not you agree with its tenets. > Of course Believing in Santa Clause is no less ridiculous than believing in angel and demons nor an all powerful god. well, that's a matter of opinion, isn't it? i wouldn't want to start a religious debate on the mailing list. it's not really the place for it, and people tend to get upset and/or insulted. if people want to believe in magic beardy guys, more power to 'em. i of course adhere to far more sensible beliefs such as black holes and superstrings :) > And I know he exists 'cos I saw him in the department store yesterday....or not... funnily enough, about the only thing i'm devoted to enough to call it religion is Marks & Spencers liam ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 02:53:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Using Supplements In article <01bb01bf4d7b$3d0de460$0100a8c0@bill>, Liam Astley wrote: > I can't remember where i saw it, but there was a quote from some > interview with a rpg writer. The topic was "Advice on writing and > publishing roleplaying games for profit". The answer was "Don't". Probably James Wallis -- I think it's quoted in the uk.games.roleplaying FAQ. - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:46:52 +1100 From: Chris Rose Subject: Re: IN> Balseraphs (Re: Trapped on Earth) At 04:08 PM 23/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Elizabeth McCoy > > almost anything the Balseraph _says_ to be the absolute truth." > >I'm not disputing here, just calling in what I see as a salient point. On >page 24 of the APG, under "More Sophisticated Uses of [Seraphim] Resonance," >the book details how a Seraph can pick up non-verbal lies. (A non-police >officer wearing a police uniform, someone passing counterfeit money, for >example.) To my mind, this would suggest that the Balseraphs' power would >involve the ability to convince someone that the money is good or the >uniform is real, despite the small inconsistencies (missing badge, horns on >the President, etc). But I arrive at that conclusion only through a sort of >IN obversion, so I could be very wrong. I've always been under the impression that the belief is in what the Balseraph says, but it's doesn't have to be a direct lie. "Here, This is money !" as the Balseraph hands over a bunch of blank pieces of paper, is going to raise suspicion... "Wow, I didn't realize I had all this money left ! I thought I'd spent it shopping earlier this morning !" is a pretty normal thing to say, it - -=implies=- that the blank pieces of paper are money (and also has the bonus lie of an alibi for where he was this morning when an organized crime gang were killed and their latest counterfeit shipment was stolen! ) Basically, you have to say it, butu you can be careful how you say it .. Another example .. "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM ?! ?! I'M THE PRESIDENT OF TEXACO !! JUST GET IT DONE -=NOW=-!!!!" Chris Ofanite of Lightning Angel of Phone Tech Support "Do What Thou Wilt, but Be Cool" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:47:04 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL > > >>>I'm kind of curious. Do you think you can tell whether a writer is an >atheist/practising Christian/ pagan etc. from reading a sourcebook that >they wrote?<<< > >I think you were actually addressing this to Perry. But in my >experience, Christian beliefs on the part of a game writer are >occasionally (but rarely) evident. Pagan writers seem more prone to >inserting their own beliefs in games. But political beliefs tend to be >more glaringly obvious than religious beliefs. I would agree with you if you're speaking about a reader who's been socialized by a Christian society - such a reader is MUCH less likely to pick up on the Christian structures because such a person understands them to be the norm - fish don't see the water until they escape it. Of course, now I get to accuse you of doing what you earlier accused me of doing (because we both do it): speaking personal points of view as though they were "objective" truths somehow. I don't find political beliefs to be very obvious myself, but I do tend to pick up very readily (sp?) on religious and cultural beliefs. > >>>(Nothing would surprise me about what people in the US believed ;) )<<< > >Troll. It's true that religious extremism is more common here than most >places in Europe. But if you're tallying the "ignorant dufus" >percentage, I don't think America suffers more than any other country. >Ours just tend to get taken more seriously for some reason. > >-David Probably for the same strange reason that the U.S. is a democracy - the inherent belief that there is worth in the belief of the common person. I'd say the common person is more likely to believe in spirits/angels/demons than vampires, or at least in the possibility of spirits than vampires. The fact that many people believe in possession by the devil and that the Holy Spirit can come down and move through them, not to mention faith healing. I've far more TV specials on people who believe in angels who've healed relatives than on people who believe in vampires that crawl through the cities at night. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Asparagus inspires gentle thoughts. - --Charles Lamb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:11:16 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL > > >>>So, I think Angels/Devils are a different thing altogether from >vampires > > and werewolves.<<< > >But Using Your Logic so is Santa Clause, like a zillion kids believe in >him. From Different countries and in different cultures, so does he count >as serious belief as well? Frankly, I don't place kids and adults in the same category. If we did we'd have to place God and the Tooth Fairy in the same category in terms of seriousness of belief. And I'm not just talking about the beliefs of Americans, I'm talking about the fact that just about every religion I can think of (barring the beginnings of Buddhism, but not where it moved to, thank you David) includes belief in spirits, for good and/or ill. That's across cultures and continents. I think its interesting that a writer who's agnostic/atheist would be drawn to writing about angels and demons. Then again, I can't imagine persuing anything seriously if I didn't believe in it. I did write a huge amount of material about a vampire character. No I don't believe vampires to exist, at least not in the classical sense, but I do believe that people can enter into states of mind where they need a lot of emotional support from others, to the point where their very presence is a drain on whomever they're with. Metaphor is neat! Then again, one can have great interest in something even if you think that it could never really exist in real life. And, come to think of it, I bet having serious religious/emotional beliefs about angels and demons in RL would probably act as a barrier to writing about something different, but purporting to be a version, of your own beliefs. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Asparagus inspires gentle thoughts. - --Charles Lamb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:21:49 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) >I'm kind of curious. Do you think you can tell whether a writer is an >atheist/practising Christian/ pagan etc. from reading a sourcebook that >they >wrote? A sourcebook? Probably not, I'd guess, because a sourcebook usually maintains the original world-view of the main book, or at least something similar. For me, RPGs are kind of like "reality simulaters," in which we can try out different realities. That's one reason the WoD is such a turn-off for me, because I really don't want to go experience such a dark, dismal place. I can how it could be useful for fighting off personal fears and confronting a harsh world. It's kinda hard to NOT move up when you're at rock bottom. One reason I've always liked GURPS and In Nomine is that the feel of the world isn't kinda crammed down your throats; its left up to the individual GM. I wonder if different supplements for In Nomine have inspired different feels for the game? - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Asparagus inspires gentle thoughts. - --Charles Lamb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:24:20 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) ><< (Nothing would surprise me about what people in the US believed ;) ) >> > > >Grrrr! I'm insulted! I call upon the Archangel Elvis to smite thee! >He who loves us tender, and shepherds us away from Heartbreak Hotel! > >Reverend Brian A. Rogers Have no fear, my child. The King is not dead, he lives yet and one day He shall return. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Asparagus inspires gentle thoughts. - --Charles Lamb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:41:18 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Beliefs in RL (Was: Re: Using Supplements) > > A recent poll, IIRC, revealed that more peolpe in the United States >believed > > in possession by the Devil than believed in Haunted Houses. (something >like > > 60% versus 35% or something like that, I think it was on NPR, or Fresh >Air) > >60% of americans actually believe in the devil? that's kinda scary > >erm, no insult to any of you lot who actually do believe in the devil, btw > > >liam I'll say, that trinket of knowledge was presented as a quiz question on What Do You Know, IIRC, Which do more Americans believe in: (A) Possession by the Devil or (B) Haunted Houses I, being the right-minded person I am (left-handed, you see), said Haunted Houses out loud, when the opposite answer was revealed as being correct, I was agast (sp?)!!! I coudn't believe it, I thought that belief in ghosts was far more common than belief in Devil Possession. Guess I underestimated the impact of the Bible Belt. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Asparagus inspires gentle thoughts. - --Charles Lamb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:46:20 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Beliefs in RL (And I'm still trying to figure out what Buddhist sect >believes in good and evil spirits.) > Hey, Jess, do you remember what Buddhist sect believes in good and evil spirits? I don't believe its the Zen Buddhists. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Asparagus inspires gentle thoughts. - --Charles Lamb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:49:19 PST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Using Supplements > >From: Perry Lloyd > > :P I myself find it ironic that you're writing stuff for In > > Nomine since, IIRC, you're agnostic/athesist. (Though I could be wrong, > > here.) > >i wouldn't really call it ironic, since IN isn't really adhering to any >official religions. not even that weird, really. After reflection, I don't find it all that ironic any more either, rather appropriate, actually. :) i doubt the guys who write >the hercules tv show come from greece :) Especially considering the costumes they come up for these people, I mean, wow, how many different eras/places can you mix and match from?! Nybbas and Kobal must have a hand in there somewhere. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com Asparagus inspires gentle thoughts. - --Charles Lamb ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1470 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.