From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Feb 4 06:40:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA17402 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:40:20 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id GAA26616 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:20:15 -0600 Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:20:15 -0600 Message-Id: <199902041220.GAA26616@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1111 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 4 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1111 In this digest: Re: IN> Hearts IN> dead angels IN> Saints q. Re: IN> Saints q. Re: IN> Saints q. IN> Gamer's Directory Re: IN> Saints q. Re: IN> Saints q. Re: IN> dead angels Re: IN> Saints q. Re: IN> Saints q. IN> Re: conversion rules Re: IN> Saints q. Re: IN> dead angels Re: IN> Hearts Re: IN> Saints q. Re: IN> Saints q. IN> [Fwd: Brimstone] Re: IN> Hearts Re: IN> Hearts IN> Words of Power ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 21:48:22 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Hearts >How much information can be determined about a celestial by touching >it's Heart? Does it just give a picture of the celestial's current >whereabouts or can it actually _identify_ the celestial it belongs to >(revealing his True name for example)? Also, does the person holding the Heart know where, as in on the planet, or does the person *see* the person to whom the heart is attuned and they must determine from context where the person is? - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:35:09 EST From: Endlsskid@aol.com Subject: IN> dead angels Hello...Im back with a quick question. What happens to the servitors of dead Archangels? What happens to their distinctions and other such things. Since their superior is dead do they lose all abilities granted by that word? The reason I ask is because Im thinking of starting an adventure based on the Dark Victory net book. And I was wondering what would happen to all the angels of dead superiors. Anyways...thanks to any who can help! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:07:57 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Saints q. Would a demon prince be able to create an anti-saint from amongst the ranks of damned souls, if they wanted to? How about having dead but damned souls returned to earth in other ways that could help their infernal masters? ie. What can a demon offer a damned soul apart from power in Hell and a brief respite from torture (or the chance to torture other souls?) jo - -- In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer. - -- Albert Camus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 06:31:51 -0500 From: Casey Hartman Subject: Re: IN> Saints q. Hart, Joanna wrote: > > Would a demon prince be able to create an anti-saint from amongst the ranks > of damned souls, if they wanted to? How about having dead but damned souls > returned to earth in other ways that could help their infernal masters? IMC, I've toyed around with the idea of Anti-Saints, or Patron Sinners. They epitomize the 'evil' in mankind's hearts. A few weeks ago, the Angelic PCs were facing off against Simon, Patron Sinner of Lust (of course working for Andre) and his 'escort service'. I don't know what canon would say with it, but I think it works out rather well. He was promoting Andre's Word rather well until the Angels stomped him out. > ie. What can a demon offer a damned soul apart from power in Hell and a > brief respite from torture (or the chance to torture other souls?) > > jo > -- What I personally did, especially with Simon, was just the offer to do what he was always good at, manipulate people into degrading and debasing situations. The chosen for Patron Sinners are those that have truly reached their Darkest of Fates; most of those people enjoyed what they did in life and would love to continue it. I've a couple other Patron Sinners in the works, but nothing corporeal as of yet. Hope this helps. Casey Hartman The End is Nigh! Play on ArmageddonMUSH: telnet://minerva.erisian.net:6996 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 08:25:22 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Saints q. "Hart, Joanna" wrote: > > Would a demon prince be able to create an anti-saint from amongst the ranks > of damned souls, if they wanted to? How about having dead but damned souls > returned to earth in other ways that could help their infernal masters? > > ie. What can a demon offer a damned soul apart from power in Hell and a > brief respite from torture (or the chance to torture other souls?) > I think... (not sure) that the only thing the demons have here along these lines is undeath... Not sure though. > jo > -- > In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible > summer. > -- Albert Camus - -- Brian A.H. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:23:36 -0600 From: Don Durham Subject: IN> Gamer's Directory Hello all, I'm going to resurrect GURPS Gamer's directory, and I'd like to include anyone from the In Nomine list that'd like to participate. For those of you who weren't on the GURPS List 3-4 years ago, this was a list for gamers and games wanted. (Designed to keep the list bandwidth lower.) What I'm going to do is put up a web page with names, the games you to play/gm and a method for prospective players/GM's to contact you. This will be for both face-to-face and PBEM games. What I'll need from you: Name: Location: (for PBEM, list that as location) Method of contact (email, phone or both) A brief synopsis of the games you play/gm, and what you're interested in. If playing, how often you're interested in playing. If GM'ing, maybe a brief description of your style. I'll keep each posting up for three months, at the end of that period, I'll email you with a confirmation request. If you don't respond, your entry gets eradicated I'll try to have the first draft of the page up in a week or so. Once it's there, I'll make an announcement. Don Durham arthurd@io.com Looking to buy/sell/trade a Gurps Book? Check out: http://www.io.com/~arthurd/gurps_files/oop ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 11:36 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Saints q. >Would a demon prince be able to create an anti-saint from amongst the ranks >of damned souls, if they wanted to? How about having dead but damned souls >returned to earth in other ways that could help their infernal masters? I don't think there's anything in canon that forbids this, but I believe it's been stated somewhere that it isn't done (or maybe that was just a discussion among the writers). In some sense, it *has* been done -- Lilith may be Hell's equivalent to an extremely powerful Saint. Perhaps that's why it hasn't been done again -- either she doesn't like the competition, or the other DPs don't want another Lilith turning up as a DP. Another answer to the question of why it isn't done might be that there's too much chance of defection once a human returns to Earth. It's a *lot* better than Hell (at least most of it), and it would be a real PR problem if some human who'd been there started telling other humans what Hell is *really* like.... Clearly, this isn't a problem with Saints. In any case, I don't see any reason why DPs couldn't make a Saint-equivalent if they wanted to. The main question is, what do they get out of it that's better than creating another demon? - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 11:40:05 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Saints q. Walter Milliken wrote: > In any case, I don't see any reason why DPs couldn't make a > Saint-equivalent if they wanted to. The main question is, what do > they get out of it that's better than creating another demon? Roughly speaking, the same thing Archangels get out of saints: a built-in better understanding of humans and less Disturbance. Defection is probably the main hang-up. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 11:44 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> dead angels >Hello...Im back with a quick question. What happens to the servitors of dead >Archangels? What happens to their distinctions and other such things. Since >their superior is dead do they lose all abilities granted by that word? This is covered in some detail in the APG and the IPG, plus some bits in the L.Canticorum and L.Castellorum. The quick answer is that most of them take service with someone else, either fully switching Superiors or doing the "in service to" bit, but usually the former. Seneschals are more likely to do the latter, though, since their Tether may not be re-directible to a new Superior. Generally, these "orphans" get to keep everything they've already got, except that the old Superior's Rites no longer work, and they'll lose any Song bonuses for their old Superior if they're re-attuned to a new Word (I think). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 12:25 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Saints q. [Earl, replying to me:] >> In any case, I don't see any reason why DPs couldn't make a >> Saint-equivalent if they wanted to. The main question is, what do >> they get out of it that's better than creating another demon? > >Roughly speaking, the same thing Archangels get out of saints: a >built-in better understanding of humans and less Disturbance. Defection >is probably the main hang-up. They already have undead for that, though, and undead don't have the defection problem. I must admit I've always been a little dubious about undead serving a lot of the DPs besides Saminga, though -- I can't see many of the other DPs bothering to make them. Maybe Saminga gives them away, sort of like Lilith sells her Daughters.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:40:55 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Saints q. > Another answer to the question of why it isn't done might be that > there's too much chance of defection once a human returns to Earth. The easy remedy to this is to build a vessel with a built-in life expectancy of, say, a year. Given faithful service, the Sinner's Demon Prince will extend his time on Earth by renewing the vessel, but if he runs, then his torment will be -that much worse- when his vessel dies and he returns to Hell. The accompanying videtape from the Game showing what happens to traitors should help drive that point home. It's the ultimate in work-release programs: Sinners get to do what they love, and they get to stay out of Hell whilst doing it. That's a big motivating factor. Combine that with rigorous propaganda (read: brainwashing) of how angels would just as soon kill them as look at them, and most won't even try. > In any case, I don't see any reason why DPs couldn't make a > Saint-equivalent if they wanted to. The main question is, what do they > get out of it that's better than creating another demon? Complete understanding of human society in a servant that generates practically no disturbance? - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:40:43 -0800 From: darkelf Subject: IN> Re: conversion rules > >Ramesh wrote: > > > Yeah, I'd agree IN, also isn't about balck and white. > > But out of interest what did you mean by: > "WoD *needs* angels, because *someone* has to be on squarely > on the good side!" > > I'm possibly misunderstanding you. > That phrase is really buggin' you, huh? :) Well, I was thinking of Wraith and Vampire particularly when I used it w/ my GM -- there's spectres and sabbat and, come to think of it, Nephandi in Mage and all sorts of clearly evil critters lurking about. Heck, Nephandi sell their souls to 'demons'...but no where is there mention of benevolent counter-forces...so, I suggested adapting IN angels. (Though now that I think on it, there's mention in Wraith that the Tempest holds beings of good and evil in its depths, but the book doesn't elaborate on the good.) Now, I know angels aren't always benevolent and sometimes they're pretty scary, but they are 'the good guys' in a way I haven't seen other WoD supernaturals be. So that's what I meant by it...I think... O:) > > If you and other people use grey-area-ed it becomes a word by default, but > at the moment I say that the answer to that question is kinda grey-area-ed. > > Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling. Kat, Cherub of Creation > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 21:48:17 EST > From: "Perry Lloyd" > Subject: Re: IN> Hearts > > >How much information can be determined about a celestial by touching > >it's Heart? Does it just give a picture of the celestial's current > >whereabouts or can it actually _identify_ the celestial it belongs to > >(revealing his True name for example)? > > Also, does the person holding the Heart know where, as in on the planet, > or does the person *see* the person to whom the heart is attuned and > they must determine from context where the person is? > > - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, > Archangel of Tea > > Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) > > "...Love is kind...love never fails...." > 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------ > > End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1110 > ******************************** - -- - ------------------------------------------------ Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. -- Yoda Fall down seven times. Get up eight. -- adapted Japanese saying ------------------------------ Date: 03 Feb 1999 11:44:46 -0600 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Saints q. >>>>> "EW" == Earl Wajenberg writes: EW> Walter Milliken wrote: >> In any case, I don't see any reason why DPs couldn't make a >> Saint-equivalent if they wanted to. The main question is, what do >> they get out of it that's better than creating another demon? EW> Roughly speaking, the same thing Archangels get out of saints: a EW> built-in better understanding of humans and less Disturbance. EW> Defection is probably the main hang-up. Hrm...they get the same advantages out of creating mummies. A mummy never sees what Hell is like, so they can't "rat-out" Hell in the same way an anti-saint could. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:26:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> dead angels At 4:35 AM -0500 2/3/99, Endlsskid@aol.com wrote: >Hello...Im back with a quick question. What happens to the servitors of dead >Archangels? They go on to serve other Archangels, (as a Servitor of Light does in Heaven & Hell, and all of Uriel's lot), or they go Outcast (as the Tsayadim did). >What happens to their distinctions and other such things. They keep special abilities, but lose Rites. (No, I don't know if the Tsayadim kept the Rites of Purity or not . . .) You can extrapolate from the "Orphans" section in the IPG. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:26:09 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Hearts At 9:48 PM -0500 2/2/99, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>How much information can be determined about a celestial by touching >>it's Heart? Does it just give a picture of the celestial's current >>whereabouts or can it actually _identify_ the celestial it belongs to >>(revealing his True name for example)? > >Also, does the person holding the Heart know where, as in on the planet, >or does the person *see* the person to whom the heart is attuned and >they must determine from context where the person is? Context. (Well, a *Superior* could probably figure out *where*.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:23:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Saints q. At 12:25 PM -0500 2/3/99, Walter Milliken wrote: >[...] Maybe Saminga gives [undead] away, sort of like >Lilith sells her Daughters.... That's pretty much what I'd figured... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:58:01 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Saints q. - -----Original Message----- From: Walter Milliken To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 03 February 1999 17:41 Subject: Re: IN> Saints q. > >They already have undead for that, though, and undead don't have the >defection problem. > What prompted this was that I was thinking to myself, what happens if an especially talented evil mortal arrives in one of Hell's principalities? Someone who would be an obvious candidate for spreading that superior's word on earth -- someone with a proven track record. As things stand, undead are the evil counterpart to saints, but a Prince can't make an undead out of a damned soul who has already died. And it's almost a waste of natural talent to leave them in Hell, especially if you can dangle the offer of a trip earthside as a reward for 'good' behaviour. (NB. I don't think defection is as much of a problem as the likelihood that the anti-saint will go a bit crazy and want to take revenge on all the people who ever snubbed it (and their descendants)). jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:39:48 -0600 From: shadowcat Subject: IN> [Fwd: Brimstone] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------1B8C1D6D3D51453644DDA8B3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know this may be a hair off topic, but I have gotten more then a couple plot ideas from this show, and it is just way too kewl. For those that haven't taken a look at it it is about a (reluctant?) soldier of hell trying to track down infernal escapies. lots of fun, and the guy who plays the devil is way to fun. Personal spin is that he is asmodeus, and not Lucifer, but hey. Shadowcat > > If you are at all a fan of Brimstone and upset at its cancellation, > you may email your protests to: > > askfox@foxinc.com > > The last episode will air sometime this March. Fox is backpedaling a > bit (just a bit) on the cancellation and more viewers writing in > couldn't hurt. Please pass this along to anyone you think might be > willing to write in on behalf of the show. - --------------1B8C1D6D3D51453644DDA8B3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from puma-2.pr.mcs.net [205.164.14.90] by mail.nomad.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.03) id AFACB58E01A2; Tue, 02 Feb 1999 17:52:12 CST Received: (from major@localhost) by puma-2.pr.mcs.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04792 for laff-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:51:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from owner-laff@catbox.com) Received: (from puma@localhost) by puma-2.pr.mcs.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04786 for laff@catbox.com; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:51:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from puma) Received: from hangar18.crinos.com (hangar18.crinos.com [208.133.73.33]) by puma-2.pr.mcs.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04696 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:38:36 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from aforte@crinos.com) Received: from aryia (aryia.crinos.com [208.133.92.243]) by hangar18.crinos.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01748; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:26:49 -0600 Message-ID: <003801be4f03$468e9c40$f35c85d0@aryia.crinos.com> From: "Adrian Forte" To: laff@catbox.com Subject: LAFF: Brimestone Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:24:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-laff@catbox.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: laff@catbox.com If you are at all a fan of Brimstone and upset at its cancellation, you may email your protests to: askfox@foxinc.com The last episode will air sometime this March. Fox is backpedaling a bit (just a bit) on the cancellation and more viewers writing in couldn't hurt. Please pass this along to anyone you think might be willing to write in on behalf of the show. - -- Adrian Forte aforte@crinos.com http://www.crinos.com/users/aforte - -- There was a young lady from Hyde, Who ate a green apple and died, While her lover lamented, the apple fermented, And made cider inside her insides. - --------------1B8C1D6D3D51453644DDA8B3-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:04:11 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Hearts Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Is any kind of roll needed to activate such abilities, especially for >>anybody less than the actual Superior that crafted the Heart? > >Apparently not. Except, mind, that if it requires touch (I think; I'm >not looking at the book at the instant) -- demon Hearts can't be touched >by other demons. (Probably generates personal symphony clashes in each >other or something.) > Beth, where does the above about demon Hearts not being touchable by other demons come from? I can't find a reference to it. IN (pg 185) says that a demonic Heart may not be _moved_ '...save by its owner or his infernal master.' Then again the IPG says (pg 98) that '...anyone might be able to steal a Heart if his plans were clever enough...' - -- Julian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:41:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Hearts At 12:04 AM +0000 2/4/99, Julian Breen wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >>>Is any kind of roll needed to activate such abilities, especially for >>>anybody less than the actual Superior that crafted the Heart? >> >>Apparently not. Except, mind, that if it requires touch (I think; I'm >>not looking at the book at the instant) -- demon Hearts can't be touched >>by other demons. (Probably generates personal symphony clashes in each >>other or something.) >> > >Beth, where does the above about demon Hearts not being touchable by >other demons come from? I can't find a reference to it. IN (pg 185) says >that a demonic Heart may not be _moved_ '...save by its owner or his >infernal master.' Then again the IPG says (pg 98) that '...anyone might >be able to steal a Heart if his plans were clever enough...' p. 185 -- "But don't touch them, they're demon's Hearts. If you touched one, it would glow red hot until you dropped it." To paraquote from memory. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:16:32 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: IN> Words of Power A while ago, I asked a question about what sort of language(s) Songs have to be sung in. The response from most folks was 'whatever you want, IYC'. Fine, but surfing recently I found this little site and it reminded me about this. Maybe some languages *are* a little more wired into the Symphony than others, perhaps enough to give a bonus (for humans) into singing them if they do it in one of these tongues? This would partly explain why sorcerors spend so much time learning dead languages. ;) The article is at; http://www.alphaomega.se/english/cymatics.html (The last line of the Conclusion is also relevant to IN.) - -- Julian ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1111 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.