From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Feb 9 21:05:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20694 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:05:58 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id UAA10148 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:41:15 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:41:15 -0600 Message-Id: <199902100241.UAA10148@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1115 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 9 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1115 In this digest: IN> [ADMIN] Control Re: IN> Submissions, Control and Infernal Saints IN> The Game (Was: RE: Control) Re: IN> Four Minor Choirs Re: IN> Armor - Mod vs. Protection Re: IN> Sorcery Question Re: IN> [ADMIN] Spam IN> More Nephallim stuff IN> Sorcery Question IN> Submissions IN> Control Re: IN> Submissions, Control and Infernal Saints Re: IN> More Nephallim stuff Re: IN> Four Minor Choirs Re: IN> Four Minor Choirs IN> Great Game. Re: IN> Existing character converted to WoD stats, for a look-see Re: IN> Sorcery Question Re: IN> Sorcery Question IN> Publishing Company for Sale! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:08:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [ADMIN] Control At 10:17 AM -0800 2/8/99, Martin Arnold wrote: >Beth: "Now that we've established that this thread is dead, don't post >to it anymore, 'kay?" > >Is this kind of control necessary - I'm the list admin, and I get to say when a thread is dead. One that has *no mention* of IN conversions in it is off-topic. The posts that discuss conversions of IN to another system -- GURPS or WW -- are *not* dead, and are perfectly on-topic. (And one (1) post to indicate a willingness to take it off-list is fine, too.) This list has no obligation to free speech, as it says the info message that y'all should have received when y'all subscribed. So it's a very good thing that no one on this list is going to argue with me about it. - --Beth, List Admin and Djinn Princess. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 99 14:41:38 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Submissions, Control and Infernal Saints >Redneck: "It should be noted that Redneck, who initially wrote that >article for Pyramid in the hopes of getting a subscription thereunto, >does not have that sub as yet, and as such will have zero input in or >observation over how the ghost rules work out." > >How dies the submissions process work then? If thauthor is using your >wiork as the basis for his or hers, do they ask, do they have to? Surely >if your work is good enpuigh in the first instance, why does this need >to happen; why does it need to be changed? As a consumer this is a >little disturbing. They -did- ask, but I didn't know which project the article would be used for until this weekend. I expect they asked to use it because I let Beth read the rough draft before I refined it and passed it on to Pyramid. >Beth: "Now that we've established that this thread is dead, don't post >to it anymore, 'kay?" > >Is this kind of control necessary Yes. Trust us. >David: "Probably not. Demon Princes might have the power, but they don't >have the knowledge -- binding human souls to a corporeal body is a >secret the Archangels have kept to themselves. (At least that's how I'm >writing it in the CPG.) Even if Demon Princes could make infernal >Saints, they wouldn't, because a human soul given a corporeal body on >Earth will run away at the first opportunity." > >How come the DP's don't have this knowledge then? Did it come about >after the last AA fell (Alaemon, I believe) or do AA's automatically >forget this upon falling. And just where would an Infernal Saint run? >His body isn't immortal, presumably. I cant imagine Hell restricting >themselves in such a way (it is a war after all) by just saying 'no >infernal saints'. I would suggest to David that Heavenly-oriented human spirits have a nature of some sort which allows them to return to Earth (should they so choose), while the Hell-bound by their nature cannot do so. It's a much more consistent mechanism than a knowledge gap which can be closed all too easily. As for 'where would an Infernal Saint run?', the answer is 'away.' There would be some damned souls who manage to carve out a position in Hell who would work to keep that position and remain semi-loyal. However, there would be many others (Attila, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Henry the VIII and others for example) who might stand out for their abilities while alive, but who alive or dead resist all domination by others. These souls you would return to Earth at your own risk, for you could not hope for any loyalty from them, and in all probability you could rely on betrayal and flight at the first possible opportunity. If the CPG ends up saying, 'no Infernal Saints,' I expect it will be because only Heaven has the -ability- to create Saints, not that Hell does not know how. Redneck Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... respond to redneck@detnet.com please ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:09:59 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> The Game (Was: RE: Control) Now, pay attention. Princess Beth used to work for the Game. This should explain right out that yes, Control is a good thing. *evil grin* Mark off another Vessel, Servitor. From the Defacto Boss Lady, Demon Princess of Nitpicking: >This list has no obligation to free speech, as it says the info message >that y'all should have received when y'all subscribed. So it's a >very good thing that no one on this list narrow eyes> is going to argue with me about it. But... But... *Bals... Er, Seraphic Pout!* Now... Is it -just- me, or do I have this nagging feeling that Beth, the Demon Princess, has a Texas Drawl??? This certainly would explain a - -lot- . . . *evil grin* - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:45:59 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Four Minor Choirs >Bene Sephiroth (a.k.a. "Children of the Spheres") What is the exact translation of Sephiroth I heard it's got something to do with the Tree of Life? Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:08:19 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Armor - Mod vs. Protection >>Why does wearing armor make it harder for peope to hit you? And, since >>it does that already, why does it also provide you with a Protection >>value? > >This is actually perfectly reasonable. Armor can work in one or both of >two ways: > > - it can deflect blows (especially one that's not "dead on") > - it can absorb the energy of a blow > >Plate armor, for example, is generally designed to do both, while Kevlar >generally is only good for energy absorption. The hypothetical "reflec >armor" often used in SF games as armor against laser weapons generally >only does the first. Excellent, as my GURPS experience would tell me. >The effectiveness of various types of armor at handling different types >of weapons and blows is hard to model very accurately, but the split >between deflection and absorption is a fairly simple and decent >approximation. It may be overkill for a "cinematic" system like IN, >since that model is most often associated with more realism-oriented >game systems. The old classic, D&D, only modeled armor by deflection >effect -- it didn't absorb damage at all. I believe some other games >systems have used only absorption. But the two-parameter armor model >used by IN is fairly common. Deflection/Absorption, gotcha >For example, GURPS uses the same sort of armor mechanics, but can add a >lot of additional complexity with various kinds of damage, varying armor >by body location, weapons and armor with specialized mechanics, etc. :) Cool, now I'm more prepared for my players. I guess the real issue for them was more why you subtracted the Mod. from their "to hit" target number. - -Perry, ONE Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:17:56 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Sorcery Question [Summoning Spirits that have no vessels] >I *know* I sent this in as errata, blessit. But it's not up. Grr. > >An ethereal spirit requires a vessel to manifest on the corporeal >plane. A sorcerer may, at the GM's option, suck an ethereal into >some kind of binding jar (in effect, giving it a temporary "vessel" >just as someone Bound into a ring would have). Of course, the >Sorcery rules are going to be fixed *anyway* elsewhere... Ah, ok. Thanks . . . good to hear the rules are going to be "revised". :) IMC, I just ruled that ethereal spirits/dream shades/ghosts, creatures of the Ethereal plane, are able to come to earth in their Ethereal vessel. What's the check on this? They stand out like a sore thumb to any and all Celestials that can see them (Perception plus "hideous bonus" to notice). Also, they are vulnerable to both Ethereal and Celestial attacks from Celestials in their Celestial form, as well as from Ethereal and Celestial artifacts. Angels have orders to kill on sight, Demons are expected to deal with them in a manner appropriate to their Word. >:) This allows for Ghosts, explains the Sorcery rules and makes the power difference a little more interesting. Thing is, most Ethereals don't know HOW to get to earth. That's where Sorcery comes in, that and reasons to have an Ethereal superior. - -Perry, ONE Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "...Love is kind...love never fails...." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:36:26 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> [ADMIN] Spam On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > I deal with all spam as it comes in, and know that some other users > also complain. (http://spam.abuse.net is a useful place to go to > learn more about how to help me fight the stuff.) http://www.sputum.org (or is it .net?) has some very good stuff as well. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:17:30 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> More Nephallim stuff >Really? Cool!! Where did I differ?< Go join the playtest. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:23:30 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Sorcery Question >Am I to assume that the majority of a Sorceror's summonings occur on the Ethereal Plane (where Beleth's spies are), or is there some special case for bringing Ethereals and Demonlings to earth without vessels?< Nope, they either have to do the summoning on the ethereal plane or find a spirit who has a vessel. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:27:01 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Submissions >>>How dies the submissions process work then? If thauthor is using your wiork as the basis for his or hers, do they ask, do they have to?<<< He submitted it as an article for Pyramid, which means it becomes the property of SJG. >>>Surely if your work is good enpuigh in the first instance, why does this need to happen; why does it need to be changed? As a consumer this is a little disturbing. <<< LOL! Are you serious? Reminds me of one of S. John Ross's Pyramid editorials, when he commented that some people would submit things to Pyramid with notes giving him "permission" to change them as needed for publication.... As a consumer, you are obviously unfamiliar with the whole concept of editing... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:28:25 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Control >>>Is this kind of control necessary - I didn't notice anyone making a similar point about all the GURPS conversions? I doubt whether there's anyone on this list to whom everything is relevant. I honestly don't believe this kind of control is healthy to debate or development of anything, IN in particular. Why does the list have to be controlled in the first place, it's not as if the this is a neo-nazi forum is it!<<< I don't believe Beth was saying you can't talk about In/WoD conversions on this list -- I agree, they're as valid as discussions about IN/GURPS conversions. Some of the messages were talking _only_ about WoD, though. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 02:47:42 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Submissions, Control and Infernal Saints Martin Arnold wrote on 08 February 1999 >Beth: "Now that we've established that this thread is dead, don't post >to it anymore, 'kay?" > >Is this kind of control necessary - I didn't notice anyone making a >similar point about all the GURPS conversions? I doubt whether there's >anyone on this list to whom everything is relevant. I honestly don't >believe this kind of control is healthy to debate or development of >anything, IN in particular. Why does the list have to be controlled in >the first place, it's not as if the this is a neo-nazi forum is it! In my opinion this kind of control is completely neccessay. Someone needs to moderate whether mails are on-topic or off-topic (BTW if this mail is the 2nd sorry), and stop off-topic mails otherwise this wouldn't be an IN mailing list threads going all over the place would cause it to become a general chit chat mailing list. How Beth chooses to deal with the list not becoming the latter is her call - and I am not at all suprised that she called the thread dead it was ceasing to be about IN and becoming *far* more WoD. A question about why angels don't get Paradox (just an example not at dig you Roland) isn't really an IN discussion and as such shouldn't be here. Just my 2 cents worth Beth said: "(And one (1) post to indicate a willingness to take it off-list is fine, too.)" Good. (I did make only one (1) post didn't I?) Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:11:01 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> More Nephallim stuff In a message dated 2/8/99 7:23:57 PM Central Standard Time, AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: > >Really? Cool!! Where did I differ?< > > Go join the playtest. ;) > > -David > GRRRRRR!!! Mail me privately if you don't want to give away secrets. I just figured I should get a prize for getting it almost right. Naw, forget it. I'm just being greedy. :) Brian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:25:12 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Four Minor Choirs > What is the exact translation of Sephiroth I heard it's got something to do > with the Tree of Life? I have neither the patience nor the time to go into an indepth diatribe on the Kabbalah right now. But, there's a decent enough page at http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/ which will provide you with a FAQ, some exceedingly goofy Thelema handwavings, and a good list of links. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:30:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Four Minor Choirs Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > What is the exact translation of Sephiroth I heard it's got > something to do with the Tree of Life? As Emily implied, "sephiroth" is a cabbalistic term. It is the plural of "sephira," but I gather the meaning of *that* term is uncertain, outside of its cabbalistic context; it might be "sphere" (pulled into Hebrew from Greek) or it might be "book," or it might be (if I recall correctly) "container." I picked "sphere" because it makes the choir name sound more impressive, and because it suggests a tie-in to the choir's power of moving from one realm ("sphere") to another. The cabbalism comes in because their celestial form is an animated version of a Tree-of-Life diagram, the Tree of Life being a construct of Cabbala (Kabbalak, Qabbala, etc.), a sort of metaphysical flowchart of the connection between God and the world. The nodes on the diagram are the sephiroth, each given a grandiose Hebrew name of high abstraction, like Beauty, Judgement, Eternity, Foundation, etc. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:34:45 -0500 From: "SAMMAEL" Subject: IN> Great Game. Just wanted to share, that thanks to the great people on this list that offered some Game Mastering advice, my campaign is going along swimmingly. Last night we had 2 fantastic interventions at critical moments in the game. A priest, who had been taken down the long road of corruption by a shedite, had just set fire to a nine story hotel and was using napalm grenades to bomb the fire trucks as they arrived on the scene. He was chased down by some firemen and police. The shedite, hops from the priest to the fireman who's restraining him but the player character forgot that the priest was still holding the last Naplam grenade. The priest, who can't live with what he's done, pulls the pin in an act of repentance, to end it all. He rolls the Holy Trinity for damage! Suddenly the PC's are running for thier lives from Gabriel (who most graciously granted the priests last request and reduced him to a pile of ash). The excitement level was way up there, we had tension, drama, and loads of fun thoughout the whole evening. Thanks again for those that offered and/or rule clarificatons. It was a great help ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:42:08 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Existing character converted to WoD stats, for a look-see I lied. I'm posting them now. Compare Chrys Parker, IN version: - --- Name: Chrys Parker Word: Drugs Total Forces: 9 Choir/Band: Lilim Dissonance: 1 Essence Pool: 2 Corp. Forces: 1 Eth. Forces: 4 Cel. Forces: 4 Strength: 2 Intelligence: 8 Will: 7 Agility: 2 Precision: 8 Perception: 9 Body Hits: 4/4 Mind Hits: 32 Soul Hits: 28 Skills Know.: Drug Effects/4 Detect Lies/2 Lang.: Spanish/2 Fast-Talk/2 Savoir Faire/2 Lying/2 AK: Athens, OH/2 Seduction/1 Driving/1 Song of Tongues/3 Attunements & Distinctions Role: Fixer/2 Vessel: F/H 1 Char. 1 Lilim of Drugs/ Status: 2 Knight of Addicts OD Discord: Cowardly/3 Geasa: Aldo, L1 (dead) Rrg, L3 (undead) Equipment: Star Wars blaster: Stun, Kill, Embarass Hideously - --- to Chrys Parker, WoD version, reposted with apologies for purposes of comparison: - --- Name: Chrys Parker Word: Drugs Dissonance: 1 Player: EDG Choir/Band: Lilim Home: Destroyed/The Ship Campaign: Perry's Forces: 9 Group: The Heroes Str: 2 Cha: 3 Per: 6 Dex: 4 Man: 3 Int: 5 Sta: 2 App: 2 Wit: 6 Fast-Talk: 2 Drive: 1 AK: Athens, OH: 2 Seduction: 1 Etiquette: 2 Linguistics: 2 (Spanish) Subterfuge: 2 Sci: Drug Effects: 4 Celestial Song of Tongues: 7 (4) Willpower: 7 (7) Essence: 9 (2) Corporeal HL: 4 Vessel: F/H 1 (Cha 1) Role: Fixer (2/2) Ethereal HL: 32 Vessel: F/H 1 (Cha 1) Celestial HL: 28 Resources: 4 _Attunements_ _Resonances_ Lilim of Drugs Lilim Knight of Addicts _Discord_ OD _Geasa_ 3: Cowardly Aldo, L1 (dead) Rrg, L3 (undead!) Equipment: Star Wars blaster: Stun, Kill, Embarass Hideously - --- Note that HL in WoD should be the same value as Hits in IN - and, Ramesh, that a .44 revolver can, at its maximum, do 9 hits per round (In Nomine, p.65). What do y'all think? Still working out the kinks, EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, vying for Angel of Translation anthoch@earlham.edu 159.28.165.120 "Jesus saves. Roll for initiative." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:46:24 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Sorcery Question In message , Perry Lloyd writes: >I'm sorry, I don't recall if you've already answered this question, but >if so then it shouldn't take much time at all to remind me. > >According to The Marches, a sorceror can summon ethereal spirits as well >as demonlings. One thing is nagging me, however. > >Canon, IIRC, says that no one can come to the Corporeal Plane without a >vessel; Not quite true. Ethereals need one, but Celestial Spirits get to come to earth, very often without a Vessel, and might remain until such a time as they have accomplished their goal/task. Hmm. Come to think of it, I've never been sure whether or not canon Sorcery: Summoning can get around summoning demons from Hell that have no Vessel or Heart. IMC, I've always said that it can. I treated any demon brought forth in this fashion like a Shedite for purposes of how long they could stay before being pulled back to Hell. In other words, they could remain on earth, celestially, for a max of 10 mins x Celestial Forces. Demonlings _might_ get to stay a little longer (until perhaps whatever the sorceror tasks them with is accomplished -- just like with their Prince). Now, if the sorceror could *provide* the summoned critter with some sort of Vessel, then that was a different matter... ( I was using home rules for this.) Incidentally, demons fleeing from Hell in pirated Vessels make for some good plots... ;) - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:25:24 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Sorcery Question At 5:46 PM +0000 2/9/99, Julian Breen wrote: >In message , Perry Lloyd writes: [...] >>Canon, IIRC, says that no one can come to the Corporeal Plane without a >>vessel; > >Not quite true. Ethereals need one, but Celestial Spirits get to come to >earth, very often without a Vessel, and might remain until such a time >as they have accomplished their goal/task. > >Hmm. Come to think of it, I've never been sure whether or not canon >Sorcery: Summoning can get around summoning demons from Hell that have >no Vessel or Heart. IMC, I've always said that it can. But if they don't have a Heart, they can't get *back*, and after the duration is up, the Symphony starts rejecting them. You can then treat them like a Renegade/Outcast Shedite/Kyrio, or be kind and drop them into Limbo. I'm cruel. I'd treat them like a Heartless bodyhopper. O}> (Evil eyebrows!) Demonlings, being little critters, don't get rejected like that and can persist indefinitely. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:00:48 EST From: BHawk3491@aol.com Subject: IN> Publishing Company for Sale! See information about Free Credit Application Below! My Multi-Million Dollar Publishing Company ONLY $149 Free Pre-Approved Merchant Account Application with Order!! To Start Your Business Out Right!! If you ever wanted "the easy way out" to make a lot of money with a business of your own.... Here is the EASIEST WAY TO START! I'm writing this letter to let you in on something that'll blow you away. 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Box 301 Orange, Ma 01364 ORDER FORM - -------------------------------------------------------------- Please send to: Your Name__________________________________________ Your Address________________________________________ Your City____________________________________________ State / Zip___________________________________________ Phone #: ____________________________________________ (For problems with your order only. No salesmen will call.) Email Address_______________________________________ We Accept Checks or Money Orders along with all Major Credit Cards including Visa, MasterCard and American Express. (NOTE - We only ship to the address listed on the credit card) (Please Fill Out Below Section and Make sure that the above name and address are listed as it appears on the card) for $149.00 Credit Card Number:________________________________ Expiration Date:___________________________ Signature:_________________________ Date:____________________ [ ] YES! Please rush my Publishing Company in a Box. I understand I have FULL REPRINT Rights and can sell any of the items for whatever price I desire, even the entire kit. [ ] DOUBLE YES! I am ordering before Feb. 18th, 1999! Please include the extra special bonuses! * Please check one of the following payment options: [ ] I am faxing a check (Do not send original, we will make a draft from the faxed check) [ ] I am faxing or mailing my credit card number. (Note your card will be charged for $149.00 and we only ship to the address on the card) [ ] I am enclosing a check or money order for $149.00! Note - If ordering outside continental US, please add $5 to S&H P.S. Don't forget you will receive 2,000 Manuals, Books, and Reports (Some of which are up to 200 pages each)...all for $149...You have full reprint and resale rights to make as much money as you want without ever paying any royalties whatsoever! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * You have been carefully selected to receive the following as a person obviously interested in this subject based upon your previous internet postings, or visits to one of our affiliate web sites. If you have received this message in error, send an email to moveit@tfz.net with the word unsubscribe in the subject. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1115 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.