From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Feb 25 17:44:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21085 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:44:49 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA14484 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:44:32 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:44:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199902252344.RAA14484@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1127 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 25 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1127 In this digest: IN> Falling into The Wrong Hands (tm) IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Re: IN> Falling into The Wrong Hands (tm) Re: IN> words Re: IN> Word of Redemption IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1124 re: IN> Falling into The Wrong Hands (tm) Re: IN> Character Sheets. . . Re: IN> words IN> Re: Character Sheets. . . Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1124 Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth Fluff (was Re: IN> Word of Redemption) Re: Fluff (was Re: IN> Word of Redemption) Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth IN> Re: words Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth re: IN> Falling into The Wrong Hands (tm) Re: Fluff (was Re: IN> Word of Redemption) Re: IN> Character Sheets. . . Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:43:39 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Falling into The Wrong Hands (tm) >>>Let's assume that the Game hasn't found out about my little problem yet and neither has Vapula. Is this situation relatively stable, or would I require a special dispensation from old Jigsaw-face to keep from racking up dissonance?<<< I'd impose dissonance every time you put the item back into the human's hands. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:43:34 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Word of Redemption >>>I'd think Seraph, actually. This angel has to defend the Word of Redemption... and the ability to determine the truth about a desire for redemption would be essential.<<< I agree with Elizabeth; an Elohite or Malakite would be most appropriate. A Seraph would only be able to determine that a candidate really desired (or more accurately, really _believed_ he desired) redemption. An Elohite or Malakite could look deeper, into the candidate's soul, reading his motives or his personal integrity, and see how close he really is to redemption, and what it will take to get him there. And I like the Malakite notion myself -- a Malakite Angel of Redemption would be someone who'd absolutely defend a genuine candidate for redemption and be his most loyal supporter....but you can bet that no one will go to him unless they're _sure_ they're ready to redeem! And he'll deal with anyone who backslides before making it to an Archangel... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 23:14:56 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption >>>>I'd think Seraph, actually. This angel has to defend the Word of >Redemption... and the ability to determine the truth about a desire for >redemption would be essential.<<< > >And I like the Malakite notion myself -- a Malakite Angel of Redemption >would be someone who'd absolutely defend a genuine candidate for redemption >and be his most loyal supporter....but you can bet that no one will go to >him unless they're _sure_ they're ready to redeem! And he'll deal with >anyone who backslides before making it to an Archangel... That's -exactly- why I don't like the idea of a Malakite as the Angel of Redemption. Thou Shalt Not Suffer an Evil to Live. Malakim -do- make mistakes. Resonance is not infallible. And when a Malakite makes a mistake about a demon's honor, the effects are - -permanent.- Even if a demon had all its ducks in a row, so to speak, one skewed glimpse into the Symphony by that Malak will have the demon spiraling off to Limbo (if lucky) or to the Demon Prince they're fleeing (if very unlucky) or with their Forces scattered to the winds (somewhere in between). OTOH, an Elohite would be a very suitable choice... but I'd still go with the Seraph, in the long run, since Seraphs are closer to the Symphony and to the 'ultimate Truth.' Redneck Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... respond to redneck@detnet.com please ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:18:02 -0600 From: "Mason Kramer" Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark >Let's say you take a Mercurian and put him, bound and gagged, and forced >him onto one of those auto repair dollys. You mount a flaming torch onto >the dolly as well, and send him careening down a San Francisco Hill into an >oil refinery, and the resulting explosion kills lots of humans.... > >(Hey, this is fun!) > You... have something against Mercurians, don't you. At a guess. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:09:37 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Falling into The Wrong Hands (tm) At 8:52 PM -0500 2/22/99, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >IMC, the Impudite would only gain dissonance once- the first time the item >in question were lost to a human. > >The principle in my campaigns would be, once the human has the device, they >have the knowledge from the device; even if the item is regained, the damage >is done- and that damage is one-time. That's what I was leaning towards, too, and I like this explanation. I'll shameless ;y nab it for my non-canon campaigns, thanks. > >However, I'm pretty sure that canonically the truth is the opposite- >dissonance is gained each time. > >Since the dissonance vanishes when the item is recovered, though, the demon >in question might well choose to... let it ride... for now... *blink* Yeah, that might work out, too. Granted, it would probably feel a bit like voluntarily walking a marathon curse with a thumbtack in his shoe to the Impudite. There's also the minor risk of getting that Divine Intervention each time he leaves the artifact behind,smacking him with Discord as well as Dissonance, but I guess those are the risks he takes when he play around with his Dissonance conditions. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Tasha, Balseraph Knight of Factions, the Alternate Angel of Political Correctness. | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:12:55 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> words At 1:41 PM -0500 2/23/99, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>I like the earlier suggestion of putting it under Judgement & Dominic; >>something about adding depth to Dom -- not just the AA who looks to prevent >>the Fall of Angels, but also works to get those who slip through his/her >>fingers back into a state of grace. Gotta admit, it sure makes for a >>brighter, nicer Dominique than is hir usual stereotype. > >Um, is the same Dominic who sends hit squads after Outcast angels and orders >dismemberment of angels for transgressions? > As for hit squads after Outcasts... Well, what are the other options?. Hit squads get sent after Outcasts who are spoiling for a Fall.If you're racking up Dissonance at a frightful rate, Habgibg around with Demons, or otherwise doing things that will put you on the Other Side very soon, yes, you will get nailed by one of Dominic's Malakim in Black. If you're a contrite Outcast, earnestly attempting to bring yourself back into Heaven's Fold, you will be raked over the coals by any Triad who comes across you. If you are weighed in the balance and found Worthy, you won't get waxed. You can expect follow-up visits from other Triads, an Now say you're not a contrite Outcast.You're despairing. You've lost your faith. You might go either way. And you're wandering around downtown Seattle when you cross paths with a Triad of Dominic. They weigh you in the balance and find you wanting. What are their options? They can attempt to Drag you back to Heaven with them. Problem is, it's pretty damned hard to take someone to the Celestial Plane who doesn't want to go. If you don't want to Go Celestial, and follow them to Heaven, without some specialized artifacts, they can't make you. They can Soul-Kill you. Once again, it's virtually impossible for them to do that unless you oblige them by going Celestial. They can attempt to implement some kind of punishment for you. Your typical Triad isn't anywhere near powerful enough to slap you with Discord. Unless there's a Bright Lilim in the Triad, they won't be able to impose any sort of permanent mental compulsion over you. They can report you to your former Superior, and try to have him implement some punishment over you, but he'll have a devil of a time finding you, and you've already broken ties with him by becoming Outcast. They can imprison you. This typically requires powerful artifacts to keep you from escaping, or the ability to impose the Bound Discord, neither of which your typical triad has on hand. If only there were some place where one could easily send a misbehaving Outcast Angel where it would be very, very difficult for him to escape, and he'd have to sit and contemplate his crimes, without having the potential of him getting in trouble, or falling into the hands of the Demons. There is one. It's Limbo. As for dismembering Angels for transgressions... Well, from what I can recall in the sourcebooks, there's only one instance where an Angel gets dismembered for a Transgression:The Viginette that opens Heaven & Hell. Was it deserved? I'd have to say Hell, yes. The Angel bore a child with a human. Depending how biblical-literal your campaign is, the last time Angel-Human crossbreeding got out of hand, God went and killed off the entire human population, save eight or so people. Nephallim all over the place. These are Things Which Should Not Be Done. Not only did the Angel create a child with a human, the human she chose to create a child with was harboring a Shedite in his skull. She was in love with this Demon. What did Dominic do to her? She gets all her corporeal Forces stripped from her, and she doesn't get any new ones for thirty-four years. When that time's over, she returns with a Triad to kill her child. Compare this to Maximillian's situation in "Fall of the Malakim." He fell in love with a Demon. All he did was cause another Angel, and several humans to get killed. No spawning half-breed demonspawn. For this, David locks him up in LA until he becomes a shambling puddle of Discord, and with a little help, snaps like a twig. Me, I think the angel in "Heaven & Hell" got off easy, compared to Max. Even if Michael had not vouched for her, and if she had not been contrite, and Dominic had her executed for her crimes (definitely justified in that case), she /still/ would have gotten off easy compared to Max. After all, Dominic and his people can only punish you as hard as you deserve. >Dominic is into consequences, NOT forgiveness. IMC, it's a rare day indeed >when Dominic consents to sponsor a demon or Outcast's Redemption. Yes, it's pretty damned rare that Dominic re-embraces an Outcast or Redeems a Demon. I'd say that's because his standards for behavior are so damned /high/ for performing the service that, by the time 99% of potential redemption candidates are at the level where Dominic would consider bringing them into his fold, they're a mile and a half past the level where many other Archangels would snap them up in a heartbeat. If you just want to be Redeemed, there's a whole bunch of Archangels who will take you if you're willing to work at it. To get Dominic to Redeem you, you've got to work your fingers to the bones of your upper arm. So much /easier/ to get Redeemed by someone else, then become a paragon of virtue and Angelic Morality, and /then/ petition to enter Dominic's Service. But then, I typically play with the Brightness knob a little higher than the factory setting, and for some reason, I've become quite a bit partial towards Dominic over the past few months. Can't imagine why. \|=) ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Tasha, Balseraph Knight of Factions, the Alternate Angel of Political Correctness. | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:06:08 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption I think I might make it a cherub, actually. You can never _know_ if someone is going to redeem (even if they try, they might be destroyed in the attempt) so it should always be an act of faith & love. And a cherub would be very motivated to make sure any demons it attuned to _did_ successfully redeem. It doesn't need to tell its attuned that they are being protecte3d, after all. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:45:36 PST From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1124 To all, I was in Religion today when We were told something about the ancient religion of Zoranastriacism (I'm not certain how you spell it, but...) any way, from Zoranastriacism there is an interesting translation. Good, translates to truth, whereas evil translates to lie. I thought this was interesting, especiallly as in th In universe, Eli started it. Lucifer as prince of lies? Anyway, I thought someone might find it interesting. Tune in when I can get my lazy self together, and I'll explain to you why The Aztecs were so much more powerful then you originally thought, and why they couldn't have been wiped out in the Purity Crusades. (Reason 1 - the Crusades were around 6-800 AD, the Aztecs didn't start till late 9th, and were destroyed by spanish invaders 14something.) Interestingly, Quetzalcoatl, (the Feathered Serpent) was the only god to not accept human sacrifice, and one of hiss alternate titles was "morning star" "I love messing with people's heads" Unknown. (Okay, so I couldn't be bothered to look it up) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:52:35 PST From: "Hydrax 59" Subject: re: IN> Falling into The Wrong Hands (tm) Well, I'd have to say that I think that you'd have to get special dispensation from ol' scarface (ohh, I can just see the Game coming), as he's a DEMON PRINCE for ... someone's sake and to get to be a demon prince, you have to hav a certain level of paranoia. Note, I'd clear it with him beforehands, seeing as how he sort of has access to a version of the Elohite resonance. (can anyone say guilt/fear/reason for fear/guinea pig{actually, almost anything guinea pig, but that's another story}) "The Boss wants to talk to you" "Oh, !&(*$." Practically any movie with an undercover FBI agent Running very fast, ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:49:54 +0100 From: "René Kragh Pedersen" Subject: Re: IN> Character Sheets. . . Endlsskid@aol.com wrote: > > Well heck yeah ...I'd be interested in seeing some alternative character > sheets...no offense to the designers who made the originals...but to me they > are kinda lame... Im used to playing with character sheets that take up the > whole page..or if you ever played Earthdawn... two pages of character sheets. [...] Personally I like it when a character starts to take up five or ten sheets (equipment, contacts, places, enemies, strange hand-outs :-) - -- René Kragh Pedersen - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The UNIX system has a command, /nice/, which allows a user to voluntarily reduce the priority of his process, in order to be nice to the other users. Nobody ever uses it. - Andrew S. Tanenbaum, Modern Operating Systems. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:43:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> words Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: "As for dismembering Angels for transgressions... "Well, from what I can recall in the sourcebooks, there's only one instance where an Angel gets dismembered for a Transgression:The Viginette that opens Heaven & Hell. Was it deserved? I'd have to say Hell, yes. The Angel bore a child with a human. Depending how biblical-literal your campaign is, the last time Angel-Human crossbreeding got out of hand, God went and killed off the entire human population, save eight or so people. Nephallim all over the place. These are Things Which Should Not Be Done. "Not only did the Angel create a child with a human, the human she chose to create a child with was harboring a Shedite in his skull. She was in love with this Demon." If I recall the vignette correctly, the Mercurian and the Shedite had produced, not a Nephal, but an (incipient) imp. And the Shedite was the "mother." That is, when we saw the converse trial in Hell, with Asmodeus and the Shedite's Superior gloating over it, I thought we also were told of the cluster of incubating forces inside the Shedite, which was "pregnant." The Infernals sentenced the Shedite to be disbanded after the "birth" of the baby, and its forces fed to the baby, as a sort of experiment. *IF* I remember rightly. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:01:03 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Re: Character Sheets. . . >Endlsskid@aol.com wrote: > >Personally I like it when a character starts to take up five or ten >sheets (equipment, contacts, places, enemies, strange hand-outs :-) It happens. That's one thing I didn't add to these new Sheets, a slot for Artifacts. But then, with all the wonky rules for Artifacts, and now Tethers... I think it makes sense to slide that sort of stuff to another page. Currently, my NPC of choice tops in at 2 pages, double-printed. Mind you, Half of that is Cheat-Notes so I don't have to dig through books to see what all my Songs/Resonances/Etc... do. The first half is two versions of the Character Sheet, even. *grin* (Which I -didn't- add to the Band/Choir specific Sheets. I felt that the APG/IPG and Songbook were ample sources for this sort of stuff, - -without- bordering on outright plagerism. Which my cheat-sheat unfortunately is.) Yes, I'm working on converting them. However I need to dig out the .PDF-maker CD and copy a few things first, before I get 'quality' stuff. What I can make now is -terrible- in the Quality department. Even if they're tiny. . . *grin* (I'll also shut-up about this, as I fear a Demon Princess breathing down my neck for beating a dead horse, as it were. . .) - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph Marquis of Fate, Demon of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:14:13 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Earl Wajenberg wrote on 24 February 1999 >Ben Aldred wrote: > >"Alright I have a complex question. A Balseraph tells a Mercurian that >he is going to kill a group of people in a room. He also tells this >Mercurian that if the Mercurian presses this button across the room, the >people will be saved. The Balseraph is lying about this but the >Mercurian belives him. Though not restrained by the Balseraph, the >Mercurian fails to press the button and thus within his mind has through >inaction allowed people to come to harm. Does the Mercurian take >dissonance for this? How about if instead of a Balseraph it was a normal >person lying to the Mercurian?" > >I don't think the Mercurian takes dissonance in either case. >On the other hand, if you club someone to death with a completely >unwilling Mercurian, the Mercurian may take dissonance. I think >it is the physical fact of damaging a human that causes the dissonance, >not the Mercurian's beliefs or intentions. I thought dissonance is gained by setting yourself against that which you are. If a Mercurians is used as a club they are are not acting against their nature - they can hardly even be said to be acting. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:34:30 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1124 Hydrax 59 wrote on 25 February 1999 12:56 Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1124 >To all, > I was in Religion today when We were told something about the ancient >religion of Zoranastriacism (I'm not certain how you spell it, but...) >any way, from Zoranastriacism there is an interesting translation. Good, >translates to truth, whereas evil translates to lie. I thought this was >interesting, especiallly as in th In universe, Eli started it. He did? Where does it say that? - From the v. little I know I'd of suspected Gabriel - all the eternal fires stuff. Quetzalcoatl, (the Feathered Serpent) was the only god to >not accept human sacrifice, and one of hiss alternate titles was >"morning star" >"I love messing with people's heads" >Unknown. (Okay, so I couldn't be bothered to look it up) Hmm.. nah, not worth it! Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:24:33 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption David Edelstein wrote on 25 February 1999 >>>>I'd think Seraph, actually. This angel has to defend the Word of >Redemption... and the ability to determine the truth about a desire for >redemption would be essential.<<< > >I agree with Elizabeth; an Elohite or Malakite would be most appropriate. A >Seraph would only be able to determine that a candidate really desired (or >more accurately, really _believed_ he desired) redemption. An Elohite or >Malakite could look deeper, into the candidate's soul, reading his motives >or his personal integrity, and see how close he really is to redemption, >and what it will take to get him there. Surely what's more important is the flavour a choir gives to a word rather than how useful their resonance is. Also (to work against my point, D'oh!) a Seraph could detect the self deception that keeps demon in the pit. >And I like the Malakite notion myself -- a Malakite Angel of Redemption >would be someone who'd absolutely defend a genuine candidate for redemption >and be his most loyal supporter....but you can bet that no one will go to >him unless they're _sure_ they're ready to redeem! And he'll deal with >anyone who backslides before making it to an Archangel... Thing about a Malkite is that they can't fall into the pit - they can't understand what it is to be cut off from the Symphony, to be so disconected from all that is right, to be a Demon - they are the Bastions of Purity not The Cleased. Ramesh aka Demon if Fiddling (Would Redeem but Fiddlings too cool and it's obviously Infernal :-) ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:50:31 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth On Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 10:39:36AM -0800, B.H. wrote: > > > Nope. "I heard this once" and "this is what I was told" may be true in > > > and of themselves, but by obfuscating like that the Seraph in question > > > certainly gains dissonance for repeating a falsehood without clarifying > > > that it is, in fact, a falsehood, > > > Because the falsehood- even the deception in the words is painful to > the Seraph. The seraph's nature is Truth, which doesn't leave room > for much deception at all. I regard deception as being a different thing from falsehood, though they are closely related. Granted, they do learn fast-talk, > especially Janus' seraphs, but even then it's just not comfortable. > Depends on the seraph and type of seraph, really, as well as how much > deception the falsehood causes. > I prefer to think that most Seraphim would be more worried about how close to falsehood the deception is. In some ways this is close to the distinction between the way Elohim commonly manipulate people and the way Habbalah force emotions on people. A falsehood is an imposition, but people do, in a way, choose to be deceived due to their habits of mind. Seraphim will find it much harder to fool people with a pedantic frame of mind. (Such as other Seraphim.) Personally, I find a much more interesting restriction on Seraphim is to prevent them from stating belief as fact, which is, IMO, much harder for most people to avoid doing than lying per se. Seraphim should live in the world of the real, and should have reasons, good reasons, for all their opinions. It is important that when a Seraph says something is so, people listen because either it _is_ so, or the Seraph has violated its nature. It makes Seraphim impressive instead of incompetent. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:55:09 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Fluff (was Re: IN> Word of Redemption) On Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 01:24:33PM +0000, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Ramesh aka Demon if Fiddling (Would Redeem but Fiddlings too cool and it's > obviously Infernal :-) ) It's interesting to note the number of regular list-posters who started off with angelic taglines which have since changed into demonic ones. Clearly the list is under powerful infernal influence. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:06:17 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: Fluff (was Re: IN> Word of Redemption) Kevin Walsh wrote: > It's interesting to note the number of regular list-posters who started > off with angelic taglines which have since changed into demonic ones. > Clearly the list is under powerful infernal influence. Hey, I'm still angelic... I'm just slightly dissonant. :) I guess it's what you get for having the Role: college student. ;) Mm. Question - do Mercurians get dissonance for playing "Street Fighter" or "Mortal Kombat"? If so, I ought either to have lots of Discord or to have Fallen long ago... ;) > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu 159.28.165.120 "Come on, I'm just a fish! I don't know these things." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:17:33 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption I had a slightly offbeat thought. What if the Angel of Redemption were an Elohite of Marc? That way he would have the 'I know what you're feeling' resonance, and also the 'Get out of hock' spin that a Trader would have on Redemption... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:26:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > What if the Angel of Redemption were an Elohite of Marc? As in "redeem this coupon"? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:28:42 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption "Ramesh Satkurunath" wrote: >David Edelstein wrote on 25 February 1999 > >>>>>I'd think Seraph, actually. This angel has to defend the Word of >>Redemption... and the ability to determine the truth about a desire for >>redemption would be essential.<<< >> >>I agree with Elizabeth; an Elohite or Malakite would be most appropriate. > >Surely what's more important is the flavour a choir gives to a word rather >than how useful their resonance is. >Also (to work against my point, D'oh!) a Seraph could detect the self >deception that keeps demon in the pit. > I really favor the Elohim for this -- Redemption must come not only from the resonance of the emotions warring inside the upward looking demon, but from the objective balancing of that demon's makeup. What the angel knows of the demon, what his emotions say about him. A Seraph can seperate truth from evil, and a Malakite can actively pursue and thrash out evil, but an Elohim can tell, *objectively,* whether or not the selfishness inside the demon is too valuable to that demon to give up more than temporarily. Furthermore, let's look beyond demons for a moment. The Word of Redemption isn't "The reclaimation of Fallen Angels" exclusively, after all. It's a powerful word that, at its heart, means forgiveness for heinous acts. It means learning to forgive one's self and make amends for one's sins. When a man commits crimes against his town, and is cast out -- and the man truly repents and works to preserve what he once callously disregarded... when that man lies bleeding in the street after fighting off the mob bosses who were going to burn down the school, and the people of the town come out and accept him -- his past, his sins and welcome him back... the Angel of Redemption's word grows stronger. Stronger, I should think, than even a Demon Redeeming would. Finally, unless we're discussing the Archangel of Redemption, the angel himself can't Redeem anyone. All he can do is petition an Archangel to do so, and the Archangel will accept that recommendation or reject it (sometimes on a whim). Once again, the Elohim would be well suited not only for preparing the appropriate recommendation for a given case, but for doing so objectively, rather than being swayed by a desire to promote his Word. (All this being said, I can see the Angel of Redemption being a Servitor of Dominic, which other's can't. If Redemption is *going* to happen, and Dominic isn't all that sure about it anyway... well, you can be Blessed sure Judgement will have a hand in the process. In my own game, I could see allied Archangels to Dominic requesting an assessment of the demon by the Angel of Redemption -- played not unlike the Testing of Delenn and Sheridan by the Vorlons on Babylon 5. It would not be an easy test.) >>And I like the Malakite notion myself -- a Malakite Angel of Redemption >>would be someone who'd absolutely defend a genuine candidate for >redemption >>and be his most loyal supporter....but you can bet that no one will go to >>him unless they're _sure_ they're ready to redeem! And he'll deal with >>anyone who backslides before making it to an Archangel... > > >Thing about a Malkite is that they can't fall into the pit - they can't >understand what it is to be cut off from the Symphony, to be so disconected >from all that is right, to be a Demon - they are the Bastions of Purity not >The Cleased. > Which is obviously a part of why I favor Elohim as well. Elohim can understand Falling, in an objective sense. Where any other choir would instinctively flee from any thought of sympathy for the act of Falling, an Elohite can weigh whether or not a Demon is best served by Redemption or not -- he can weigh the advantages (for the Demon) of his profane, selfish state and decide whether or not those advantages better suit the Demon than Heavenly grace. After all -- if the new Angel discovers he doesn't like his blessed state as much, and remembers the darkness as being somehow... better.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:54:00 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth At 5:50 PM +0000 2/25/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >Personally, I find a much more interesting restriction on Seraphim is to >prevent them from stating belief as fact, which is, IMO, much harder for >most people to avoid doing than lying per se. Seraphim should live in the >world of the real, and should have reasons, good reasons, for all their >opinions. It is important that when a Seraph says something is so, people >listen because either it _is_ so, or the Seraph has violated its nature. >It makes Seraphim impressive instead of incompetent. > The problem I have with this is that Seraphim don't live in the world of the real at all. In fact, they are the furthest Choir *from* the real -- which is to say the Corporeal realm. I think a Seraph who has spent almost all his time in Heaven probably would act exactly as Kevin puts forth. But the more they deal with humanity, and are forced to use humanity's languages (capable of a deception the Celestial tongue isn't) and interact meaningfully both with that deception and *with* belief, the more they have to be able to split hairs about Truth and falsehood. Being incapable of stating belief as fact when they *truly* believe it would seem to be inconsistant. They are the closest to the Divine -- they need faith more than most. Besides, it makes it harder to believe they'd ever fall if they couldn't express their beliefs as facts, since the ability to Believe The Wrong Thing And State It is what makes a Balseraph a Balseraph. That's a *lot* bigger jump to make for a Seraph if normally he can't express beliefs as facts at all. Now, why I always see this discussion in terms of what makes Seraphim fall is beyond me.... - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:07:25 PST From: "Krowe _" Subject: IN> Re: words My character in our local campaign is a Malakim Master of Destiny and the Angel of Redemption. He plays just fine. You must remember that Redemption is among the most honourable thing that a person can undertake. The APG specifically states that Malakim are not bound by their oaths to slay evil if that evil is trying to repent/redeem. It's also important to remember that, even though the oath is 'never suffer and evil to live if it is their choice', that does not mean that said evil must be destroyed immediately. So long as it is eventually destroyed is all that matters. Krowe Malakim Master of Destiny, Angel of Redemption Lord Master Librarian of the Night Angels Space Marines Lord of XAOZ "What good fortune for those in power, that people do not think." -- Adolf Hitler, 1889-1945 "Love is a dirty trick played upon us to achieve the continuation of the species." -- novelist W.Somerset Maugham, 1874-1965 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:02:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth (I'm gonna have to fix that setting sometime. This bounced because it thought it had some knid of admin request in it.) Hopefully that's enough to make it not freak finding "admin commands" in the first 7 lines. >From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" >Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:06:02 -0000 > >From: Whistling in the Dark >>But when you act Dissonant, you are *directly* acting against your nature >>-- your very *existance* in the Symphony. A Seraph who lies. A Cherub >who >>lets his charge die. A Mercurian who kills a human. > >Kills - it's any use of violence (against humans). > >Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:58:24 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: re: IN> Falling into The Wrong Hands (tm) In reply to: > Well, I'd have to say that I think that you'd have to get special > dispensation from ol' scarface (ohh, I can just see the Game coming), as > he's a DEMON PRINCE for ... someone's sake and to get to be a demon > prince, you have to hav a certain level of paranoia. Note, I'd clear it > with him beforehands, seeing as how he sort of has access to a version > of the Elohite resonance. (can anyone say guilt/fear/reason for > fear/guinea pig{actually, almost anything guinea pig, but that's another > story}) I'd just like to say that IMG this wouldn't work. You *can not* gain dispensation from your Superior regarding their Dissonance conditions. The Dissonance is part of their Word, it is part of their being. They are bound to it more tightly than you could ever be, and they are in no position to 'give you a break' with Dissonance. If they want someone who doesn't suffer from their Dissonance, they hire someone else's servitor for a while. Leath. PS. This is why I hate the section (APG? Can't remember which book) that says when you summon Blandine, she's more likely to appear Celestially to you one Earth. No way! That would tear her soul apart IMO. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:44:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Fluff (was Re: IN> Word of Redemption) At 5:55 PM +0000 2/25/99, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 01:24:33PM +0000, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> Ramesh aka Demon if Fiddling (Would Redeem but Fiddlings too cool and it's >> obviously Infernal :-) ) > >It's interesting to note the number of regular list-posters who started >off with angelic taglines which have since changed into demonic ones. >Clearly the list is under powerful infernal influence. Shhhhhhh! Don't *tell* them that they're being recruited! - --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:23:06 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Character Sheets. . . René Kragh Pedersen wrote: > > Personally I like it when a character starts to take up five or ten > sheets (equipment, contacts, places, enemies, strange hand-outs :-) Whereas I like it if I can fit my character on one side of an index card, preferably with space left over. Maybe you just _can't_ please all of the people all of the time... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Journalism is not a profession or a trade. It is a cheap catch-all for fuckoffs & misfits - a false doorway to the backside of life, a filthy piss-ridden little hole nailed off by the building inspector, but just deep enough for a wino to curl up from the sidewalk and masturbate like a chimp in a zoo-cage. HUNTER S. THOMPSON, "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:34:31 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim At 11:34 PM -0500 2/24/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >Furthermore, if you push a Mercurian out of a window, he unwillingly >*doesn't* use Numious Corpus to sprout wings and fly and he lands on a >human and kills him, it's a dissonance condition. > >And, therefore, if you load a Mercurian in a cat vessal into a cannon and >aim him at a passing human and fire him and kill the human.... > >Let's say you take a Mercurian and put him, bound and gagged, and forced >him onto one of those auto repair dollys. You mount a flaming torch onto >the dolly as well, and send him careening down a San Francisco Hill into an >oil refinery, and the resulting explosion kills lots of humans.... I'd have to disagree in all the above situations. At least in my opinion, a Violent act requires willfully and purposefully doing harm to another being or object when fueled by rage. Angelic Choir Dissonance is primarily about Choice. You /choose/ to act against your nature,. You choose to tell lies. You Choose to attune yourself to more things than you can protect effectively. You choose to ignore your impulses. You choose to fulfill your own desires instead of acting in the best interests of Heaven. You choose to break one of your Oaths. You choose to put bodies that aren't yours in harmful situations, and choose to abandon them before they are repaired. And you choose to act in a violent manner towards something that isn't a Demon. I wouldn't give a Mercurian Dissonance if he was cleaning a gun, and it went off , hitting his friendly neighborhood mailman in the foot. I /would/ expect the Mercurian to apologize profusely, and to have a crisis of Faith in that his action accidentally harmed a human being. And I certainly wouldn't give him Dissonance because some buff Calabite beat six policemen to death with his unconscious body. On the other hand, I wouldn't give a Mercurian Dissonance for performing neccesary surgery, for slicing bread, for sawing up 2 x 4's, or for tossing cut firewood into a fireplace...*unless* he was taking out his anger at someone else upon the inanimate objects. A mercurian /should/ be going out of his way to avoid harming non-demons, but accidentally doing so poses no Dissonance problems in my opinion. I'd aslo say that deliberately killing viruses and bacteria, and various protozoans is just fine, it it's not being done out of anger. Damaging plants, I'll have to think about. Chopping down live trees is definately out,pruning to save a tree is probably okay, mowing grass and topiary or bonsai procedures are probably out. But that's just my opinion. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Tasha, Balseraph Knight of Factions, the Alternate Angel of Political Correctness. | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1127 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.