From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Feb 27 12:59:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20736 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:59:35 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA07786 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:00:01 -0600 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:00:01 -0600 Message-Id: <199902271900.NAA07786@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1129 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, February 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1129 In this digest: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1127 Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1127 Re: IN> Tethers and Windies and Thieves, Oh My! Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim IN> Character Sheets (Update) / Query. . . Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1127 Re: IN> Lilim and Geases Re: IN> Tethers and Windies and Thieves, Oh My! Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth IN> Re: fluff IN> Re: Eli + Zoranastricism IN> Re: Falling into The Wrong Hands (tm) Re: IN> Tethers and Windies and Thieves, Oh My! Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Re: IN> Re: Eli + Zoranastricism Re: IN> Tethers and Windies and Thieves, Oh My! Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Re: IN> Word of Redemption Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim IN> Re: Mercurian Violence ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:10:44 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim EDG wrote >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> If it continued under the belief that it had killed the humans, yes. >> If it found out that it had been decieved, I think so - interesting >> question: if the Mercurian didn't gain dissonance and knew it hadn't gained >> dissonance it would know the Balseraph was lying so surely the Serpent >> would gain the dissonace. > >I think I need to point out here that the Mercurian dissonance condition >is NOT for killing. That's the Impudites. The Mercurians take >dissonance when they _hurt something_ through violence. Okay slight misphrase. >Their nature is >to be calm and friendly; when they're violent, they're going against >their nature. > >Hence, a Mercurian walking over and pushing a button that lets gas into >a room with humans in it will NOT take dissonance, unless he punches the >button. Likewise, I can see a Mercurian taking no dissonance from >lacing someone's burger with cyanide, the way the rules are written. Erm I think that the letter of the rules would agree but I think that the spirit is slightly different. Ramesh aka Balserph of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:17:05 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim - -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Heinen To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 26 February 1999 21:46 Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim >At 11:53 AM -0800 2/26/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Ben Aldred >>To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >>Date: 26 February 1999 15:36 >>Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim >> >> >>>alright, let me rephrase my original question somewhat. If the balseraph >>>tells the mercurian that pushing the button will kill the humans(it >>>actually is a harmless button with a small lightbulb attached) and the >>>mercurian presses the button and the humans die from other means(they >>would >>>have died anyway due to Balseraphic machinations) would the mercurian then >>>take dissonance because it chose to kill the humans? >> >>If it continued under the belief that it had killed the humans, yes. >>If it found out that it had been decieved, I think so - > >If he found out, would the dissonance be removed? I think so since he set himself against his nature. >Or would that require an >attitude adjustment on the Balseraph? Pardon? >And what about no-win situtions? Say the button closes a launch door to a >rocket. If the door is open, the rocket takes out a city, if closed it >destroys only its silo, and the people the Balseraph locked in the (CCTV >enabled) broom closet. Altho, would this work better against a Renegade >Impudite? I'd say not acting doesn't gain dissonance and acting does gain dissonance. Not fair, but getting dissonance is supposed to be more of a moral choice for angels and if they think it's better to act they have to pay the price. >> interesting >>question: if the Mercurian didn't gain dissonance and knew it hadn't gained >>dissonance it would know the Balseraph was lying so surely the Serpent >>would gain the dissonace. > >What about the (lack of) disturbance in the Symphony? Would that give it >away as well? Depends on how far the Mercurian pushing the button is from the people - far enough away and the mercurian wouldn't be able to hear it anyway. >-Jeff, Newbie at Large Hi. Ramesh aka Balseraph of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 17:29 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1127 > Everyone remember my question about the angel with 64 >forces? Well, the suggestion to use it as a Word bound Angel with 18 >personal forces and the rest Word forces seemed like a good answer to >me...(since in the game the chances of it becoming a new ArchAngel >itself are pretty darn good if the campaign goes on long enough). New >problem is...how the heck would I use Word forces? In my original model for the concept, Word Forces: - count for total Forces - can store Essence like normal Forces Really just extension of the first item. - can be lost in celestial combat I was thinking the celestial could choose to lose either a regular Force or a Word Force. - convey special Rites and attunements I was thinking for each Word Force gained, one Rite or Word-related attunement was gained by the Word-holder. These can be given to others, though the Rites connect to the Word-bound's Superior, not him. > I mean, would you >use those only in a roll that would directly affect the Word? Forces don't generally do that, except for Songs. Bonuses to attribute or skill rolls would normally be Word-related attunements, just like the Servitor Attunements for Superiors sometimes do. (Note that Word-bound can give attunements to others, just as Superiors can.) I'd allow Word Forces to substitute for another type of Force when computing the target number for a Song *iff* the Song was related to the Word in some fairly direct way. For example, Bloodhoundiel, the Angel of Finding Things, could use his Word Forces in place of the appropriate realm Force for the Song of Affinity, or the Corporeal and Celestial Songs of Attraction, and anything else the GM ruled was similar. > I mean, >say (and this is only a fer instance here)...say a Lilim serving the >Word Freedom (and what Lilim wouldn't be proud to?) wanted to use her >Fast Talk skill to get bail someone out of jail...would she use her >extra Word Forces (if she had them...just go with me on this one folks) >to help her on that roll? Depends on what *her* Word is. If it was "Freeing Prisoners", I might allow a small (fixed) bonus to Fast-Talk for that purpose. Or she might have an attunement from her Word that gave a bonus equal to Word Forces (probably Celestial Forces for others) to skill rolls associated with releasing prisoners. *Lilith's* Word fo Freedom does nothing for the Lilim, since it's not *her* Word, she just serves it. On the other hand, Lilith could probably give out a similar attunement if she wanted, since "Freeing Prisoners" would fall under her Word. > I know, I'm stepping out of canon with this 64 forces angel...but I >like to keep as close as I can okay? I (unfortunately) have quite a few >/rules lawyers/ *shudder* in my group. Well, Word Forces don't exist in canon. They're sort of vaguely implicit in the Tetherbook (the Forces bound into the Tether), but they're not currently a game mechanic anywhere. In my thinking, a 64-Force angel is probably a Superior, though probably a rather minor one. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:06:20 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim At 6:10 PM -0500 2/26/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >EDG wrote >>Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >>Hence, a Mercurian walking over and pushing a button that lets gas into >>a room with humans in it will NOT take dissonance, unless he punches the >>button. Likewise, I can see a Mercurian taking no dissonance from >>lacing someone's burger with cyanide, the way the rules are written. > > >Erm I think that the letter of the rules would agree but I think that the >spirit is slightly different. > Agreed, assuming the Mercurian knows what will happen to them. It would be the same as saying a Mercurian who walked up to a human with a bat and bashed him with it wouldn't take dissonance because his hand never touched the human. Mercurian touches button. Gas is released. Humans are hurt badly and then die. (Hurt meaning 'harm brought to,' not 'put into pain'). Mercurian takes dissonance. At least, as I see it. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:25:36 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Erm I think that the letter of the rules would agree but I think that the > spirit is slightly different. Why? The Mercurian dissonance condition, as I keep saying, is NOT for harming humans. It's for taking violent action, for BEING violent, which is directly against their nature. The only thing a Mercurian can non-dissonantly be violent against is a demon. However, lacing a burger with cyanide, I'd say, is not violent in the least - unless you practice combat poisoning techniques - whereas going to the gym and taking out your aggression on a punching bag _is_, because you're acting violently regardless of what it's focused on. > Ramesh aka Balserph of Fiddling - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu 159.28.165.120 "Come on, I'm just a fish! I don't know these things." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:37:24 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > I'd say not acting doesn't gain dissonance and acting does gain dissonance. > Not fair, but getting dissonance is supposed to be more of a moral choice > for angels and if they think it's better to act they have to pay the price. Why shouldn't they pay the price if they think it's better not to act? People will die either way. However, making that choice, again, is not a violent action. It is the Balseraph who's set the rocket going; with no way to prevent it, the Mercurian is simply choosing _where_ to do the damage, not whether damage will be done, and so gains no dissonance by making either choice. > >> interesting > >>question: if the Mercurian didn't gain dissonance and knew it hadn't > gained > >>dissonance it would know the Balseraph was lying so surely the Serpent > >>would gain the dissonace. > > > >What about the (lack of) disturbance in the Symphony? Would that give it > >away as well? > > Depends on how far the Mercurian pushing the button is from the people - > far enough away and the mercurian wouldn't be able to hear it anyway. I think Ben's original premise was two rooms separated by a wall. However, this is once again going under the assumption that the Mercurian dissonance condition is for killing humans. - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu 159.28.165.120 "Come on, I'm just a fish! I don't know these things." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 01:49:47 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Agreed, assuming the Mercurian knows what will happen to them. It would be > the same as saying a Mercurian who walked up to a human with a bat and > bashed him with it wouldn't take dissonance because his hand never touched > the human. Not really, because in the case you describe the Mercurian is acting violently, which fulfills the dissonance condition. > Mercurian touches button. Gas is released. Humans are hurt > badly and then die. (Hurt meaning 'harm brought to,' not 'put into pain'). > Mercurian takes dissonance. At least, as I see it. The dissonance rules say nothing about bringing harm to anything. What they say is, and I quote, "Violence generates dissonance in Mercurians." Touching a button is not generally a violent action. - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu 159.28.165.120 "Come on, I'm just a fish! I don't know these things." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:12:55 PST From: "Steve Marco" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1127 In my campagin, there was created a word bound Angel of Redemption. I made him a Seraphim of Destiny who, upon reaching his Master of Divine Knowledge Distinction, took the resonance of a Mecurian. I felt it very necessary for the Angel to be able to understand the interactions between people, as well as have an affinity for finding the Truth. Just a thought... Steve Marco ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:21:13 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Tethers and Windies and Thieves, Oh My! At 2:27 AM -0500 2/26/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >The rules state that in general, it's one point of dissonance worked off per >week. Does this week have to happen all at once or can it be spaced out? For >example, can a dissonant Windie hop back and forth between too Tethers every >couple of days? Up to the GM. If they're going up one Tether, through Heaven, and down another, then I might be gracious about it. If they're taking a week of travel between, then I wouldn't. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 13:41 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption [David:] >And I like the Malakite notion myself -- a Malakite Angel of Redemption >would be someone who'd absolutely defend a genuine candidate for redemption >and be his most loyal supporter....but you can bet that no one will go to >him unless they're _sure_ they're ready to redeem! And he'll deal with >anyone who backslides before making it to an Archangel... I agree. Redemption isn't supposed to be easy -- facing a Malakite is a good test of sincerity. Also, a Malakite isn't likely to be fooled. It would be my first choice of Choir for that Word. Of course, lots of angels are likely to try to manage redemptions, so he wouldn't be the only choice. I suspect he'd be likely to show up to assess any reported redemption candidates, though. In my campaign (or more exactly, the campaign's non-canon "future history"), there's a Malakite of Destiny who fills much this purpose, though he's not a Word-bound. (Might be ready for it, though.) Yves sends him around to check on redemption candidates when they're reported (assuming they are). And he looks around for candidates on his own, when he's got no more pressing business. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:31:42 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > > Can a Serpah tell a factually untrue tale if it serves to illustrate a > higher truth (without incurring dissonance), like Aesops (is that how you > spell it) Fables. Yup, they can. As long as they aren't presenting it as a factual truth. In my game, some very fresh seraphs have a hard time with fiction of any sort until they get more experienced, but I don't impose dissonance even for them! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:27:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim At 10:16 AM -0500 2/26/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >alright, let me rephrase my original question somewhat. If the balseraph >tells the mercurian that pushing the button will kill the humans(it >actually is a harmless button with a small lightbulb attached) and the >mercurian presses the button and the humans die from other means(they would >have died anyway due to Balseraphic machinations) would the mercurian then >take dissonance because it chose to kill the humans? If it chose to kill them, I'd say yes. (It might think that this was the lesser of evils, but it would still get dissonance.) I work on Mercurian Dissonance from one of their other names: Friends of Man. If they personally do something "unfriendly" in a painful damaging physical way, they get dissonant. Consult your local GM to see what other restrictions (or freedoms) may apply. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:15:22 -0600 From: Shadowstar Subject: IN> Character Sheets (Update) / Query. . . Yep, They're up. . . http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine/in_csheets.html (Spelled correctly this time. *evil grin*) . . .And they're in .pdf format, so snag Adobe Acrobat if you want to even -think- about downloading them) Commentary, etc. . . You know where that goes (PRIVATELY emailed directly to me, 'lest you anger the Demon Princess, unless she doesn't care *grin*). . . Haagenti gets all the spam, insults, and negative vibes (he's hungry enough, after all). - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hey, speaking of Demon Princesses. . . Like do you know if any of the Superior's 'Seals' (mentioned throughout the 'Liber Castellorum') will become available in future? (Like the Choir/Band icons in the IPG/APG) Okay, I'm a symbol freak. . . I'd go and create a symbol for 'Cliff' and jump off it if I felt so inclined too. *grin* P.S. Knowing you'll nitpick it eventually, I also changed my .sig to reflect how Kronos names his word-bound of high rank. . . *evil grin* - - Tafka J. = shadowstar@centuryinter.net # Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Granduer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:26:21 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1127 At 12:23 AM -0800 2/26/99, Ali- Baba wrote: [...] >Word Freedom (and what Lilim wouldn't be proud to?) wanted to use her >Fast Talk skill to get bail someone out of jail...would she use her >extra Word Forces (if she had them...just go with me on this one folks) >to help her on that roll? No. *HER* Word isn't Freedom. Word-Forces, if I recall the various non canon suggestions running around loose, give extra Essence capacity and are figured in whenever a Song or attunement says "total Forces." (Jordi can possess a *LOT* of animals!) They don't add to anything else. A Wordbound generally gets a special ability (and Rite) from their Word. *That* might give some related bonus, so that, say, the Angel of Logic is able to use something similar to Divine Logic, or instantly solve logic puzzles or such. (Did I mention that Word-Forces are currently non-canon? They are.) > I know, I'm stepping out of canon with this 64 forces angel...but I >like to keep as close as I can okay? I (unfortunately) have quite a few >/rules lawyers/ *shudder* in my group. Tell them to be Gamesters. Then have Asmodeus change the rules. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:16:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Geases At 8:01 PM -0500 2/25/99, Whistling in the Dark wrote: >At 7:33 PM -0500 2/25/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>At 7:17 PM -0500 2/25/99, EDG wrote: >>>Second: It's mentioned in several places that Lilith herself can trade >>>Geases for other favors. (As a matter of fact, my current Lilim is >>>benefiting directly from just such a trade.) Question is, can Lilim do >>>this? "He owes me a favor... ask him!" >> >>Lilim cannot. They can swear to invoke a Geas only when and as someone >>else dictates. (This is also in FotM.) They cannot trade Geas-tokens. >>(I think some of this may be in the sample text from FotM, at the >>web-page for FotM. (reachable from www.sjgames.com/in-nomine).) > >I assume they can do so "manually," though? As in "Well, he owes me a >favor, so I'll go ask him to do it for me!" Or am I just wrong? You can go to a Lilim and tell her, "Okay, I want Joe Mundane to do something. Angie holds a hook on him, and Betty has a hook on Angie, and Carol has a Geas on Betty, and you have a Geas on Carol. Go to Carol and tell her that you want Angie to have Joe Mundane file for divorce *today*. Go ahead and tell her the rest of the chain." And the Lilim goes to Carol who goes to Betty who goes to Angie who goes to Joe and that's how the Lilim network works. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:39:31 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Tethers and Windies and Thieves, Oh My! BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > > Okay. I know in order to get rid of dissonance the preferred method is to work > it off in a Tether. (leaving aside other specific methods involving repentance > or restitution or getting the victim on the second try.) This makes it rather > hard on Servitors of Theft and the Wind, doesn't it? They have to stay on the > move. And since transient and mobile Tethers are rather rare, they're kind of > S. O. L. when it comes to getting rid of dissonance. Not to mention Gabriel > and Nybbas's people, who are on a constant deadline. > The rules state that in general, it's one point of dissonance worked off per > week. Does this week have to happen all at once or can it be spaced out? For > example, can a dissonant Windie hop back and forth between too Tethers every > couple of days? I would say, for those celestials that have to stay on the move, they can spread out their service as long as the dates aren't TOO far apart (no more than a day or two between each full day served). Ideally, they might be able to go from Tether to Tether, serving a few days in each. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:47:55 +0100 From: cd skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs and Truth Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > Personally, I find a much more interesting restriction on Seraphim is to > > prevent them from stating belief as fact, which is, IMO, much harder for > > most people to avoid doing than lying per se. Seraphim should live in the > > world of the real, and should have reasons, good reasons, for all their > > opinions. It is important that when a Seraph says something is so, people > > listen because either it _is_ so, or the Seraph has violated its nature. > > It makes Seraphim impressive instead of incompetent. > Interesting. So they'd all be speaking English (or whatever) prime, right? > IIRC, E' is the name given to English without the worb "be" in any of its > forms. From the Aleph website: [1]E-PRIME: E-Prime is English without the verb "to be" in its sense of "is of identity". It originated in the tradition of [2]General Semantics, to avoid many of the pitfalls of natural languages which confuse the outside world and the observer. For a more detailed introduction, see [3]E-Prime. /cd, digressing, but this is interesting... [1]: http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Words/e.html#E-PRIME [2]: ftp://lumina.ucsd.edu/pub/.../gs_dir/000_gs.html [3]: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/2606/eprime.htm - -- "What's one more meaningless act of violence on that zoo of a planet? It would be appropriate. When in Rome, burn it." -- "The State Of The Art" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:05:14 PST From: "Hydrax 59 calabim serving the Prince of Truth" Subject: IN> Re: fluff Well, of course they're joining us... I mean the conditions are so much better, we get retirement benifits for Chri- for Lucifer's sake and it's so much less stressful. I mean speaking truthfully, which would you rather have as your job? listening to humans whine on and on for centuries about how pathetic their lives are, or actually giving them something to whine about. I mean it's so much more fun being evil... look at who the humans look up to for their role models - soapie stars! Evil is beginning to be seen as Good now, as the humans are waking up to the realisation that we're winning. I mean today we have more Soldiers than at any other time in history. What I didn't tell you. Yes, we have retirement benifits, but if you try and claim them, your prince is going to be really suspicvious. Add to that the fact that we're immortal and not many people will be retiring - "Evil, It's not a job it's a way of life." Plus can you picture any demon giving up a chance at a bigger slice of the pie? Yes we have more Soldiers than ever before but there are more people in the world then ever before. "I'm not talking about the Truth here, I'm talking about truths, and every person has a different one of those." Jerhazel, Dread Lord, and Balseraph Prince of Truth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:03:30 PST From: "Hydrax 59 calabim serving the Prince of Truth" Subject: IN> Re: Eli + Zoranastricism >>interesting, especiallly as in th In universe, Eli started it. > >He did? Where does it say that? - From the v. little I know I'd of >suspected Gabriel - all the eternal fires stuff. Yeah it makes a lot more sense, but page 10 Angelic Player's guide: "Eli made a great deal of progress with the prophet Zoroaster, anbd saw his teachings spread as Persia grew." "Well, really, do you think I could be a balseraph? I mean it is impossible for me to lie and everything" Dread Lord and Balsereph Prince of Truth Jerhazel twisting the truth. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:23:26 PST From: "Hydrax 59 calabim serving the Prince of Truth" Subject: IN> Re: Falling into The Wrong Hands (tm) In reply to: >I'd just like to say that IMG this wouldn't work. You *can not* gain >dispensation from your Superior regarding their Dissonance >conditions. The Dissonance is part of their Word, it is part of >their being. They are bound to it more tightly than you could ever >be, and they are in no position to 'give you a break' with >Dissonance. If they want someone who doesn't suffer from their >Dissonance, they hire someone else's servitor for a while. I'd just like to restate: >> he's a DEMON PRINCE for ... someone's sake The dissonance conditions are not part of a word, they're a control put upon their servitors by the superior in question. I mean, look at Eli. He chose to trust his servitors enough to cut them loose, whereas Demon princes are too terrified of what would happen if they let therir servitors out without controls. They might begin working against his/her/its (saminga) word. Archangels on the other hand are concerned for their servants with most of them treating them like children, in that they want to prevent them form harm, and so give them a set of guidelines to work within. Within this reasoning, I can quite easily see a superior giving a favoured servitor a different set of dissonance conditions. You'd better pick a damn good time for asking though. Otherwise you'd get thrown to the game so quick they'd have you last week. (Well they're princes. They could if they truly wanted to.) Of course you might manage to find employment elsewhere (as I did IC). "There is absolutely no truth toi the rumors that Eli has been contemplating joining our side. But now that I've said that, you have to wonder don't you?" Dread Lord, and Balseraphic Prince of Truth, Jerhazel, putting in a word on request of Malphas. (And loving the irony). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:59:32 -0800 From: "Bloodroot" Subject: Re: IN> Tethers and Windies and Thieves, Oh My! - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth McCoy To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 1:25 AM Subject: Re: IN> Tethers and Windies and Thieves, Oh My! >At 2:27 AM -0500 2/26/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >>The rules state that in general, it's one point of dissonance worked off per >>week. Does this week have to happen all at once or can it be spaced out? For >>example, can a dissonant Windie hop back and forth between too Tethers every >>couple of days? > >Up to the GM. If they're going up one Tether, through Heaven, and down >another, then I might be gracious about it. If they're taking a week >of travel between, then I wouldn't. > As an added bit, this is the benefit of using your Superior's Tethers for this purpose. IMHO (and in my campaign) Janus has many Tethers that move...these are suited for working off of dissonance when you serve the Wind. For one of a great many In Nomine games I never got a chance to ran, I developed the East Wind as a Tether. Or rather, one of those fantastic castles behind the East Wind one reads of in fables. The physical location of the tether is constantly changing with the ebb and flow of the atmosphere. But...that's getting off topic. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:12:26 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim EDG wrote: >Whistling in the Dark wrote: >> Mercurian touches button. Gas is released. Humans are hurt >> badly and then die. (Hurt meaning 'harm brought to,' not 'put into pain'). >> Mercurian takes dissonance. At least, as I see it. > >The dissonance rules say nothing about bringing harm to anything. What >they say is, and I quote, "Violence generates dissonance in >Mercurians." Touching a button is not generally a violent action. Pulling a trigger is not a violent action. What makes it violent is the circumstance in which it is used. You cannot say that triggering a bomb (for example) to go off by pressing a button is not a violent action. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:35:30 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Eli + Zoranastricism Hydrax 59 wrote >Yeah it makes a lot more sense, but page 10 Angelic Player's guide: >"Eli made a great deal of progress with the prophet Zoroaster, anbd saw >his teachings spread as Persia grew." Thanx Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:20:28 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Tethers and Windies and Thieves, Oh My! Brian A. Rogers wrote >Okay. I know in order to get rid of dissonance the preferred method is to work >it off in a Tether. (leaving aside other specific methods involving repentance >or restitution or getting the victim on the second try.) This makes it rather >hard on Servitors of Theft and the Wind, doesn't it? They have to stay on the >move. And since transient and mobile Tethers are rather rare, they're kind of >S. O. L. when it comes to getting rid of dissonance. Not to mention Gabriel >and Nybbas's people, who are on a constant deadline. >The rules state that in general, it's one point of dissonance worked off per >week. Does this week have to happen all at once or can it be spaced out? For >example, can a dissonant Windie hop back and forth between too Tethers every >couple of days? One thing to remember if a Windie spends more than 3 days in 1 location they only earn 1 point of dissonance, therefore a windie with 2 points of dissonance could spend 3 weeks (1 for each point they went in with and 1 for the point they got from hangin' about) in a tether and have no dissonance at the end. Or at least that's what I want you believe :-) Ramesh aka Balseraph of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:29:11 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim EDG wrote 27 February 1999 07:31 Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> Erm I think that the letter of the rules would agree but I think that the >> spirit is slightly different. > >Why? The Mercurian dissonance condition, as I keep saying, is NOT for >harming humans. It's for taking violent action, for BEING violent, >which is directly against their nature. The only thing a Mercurian can >non-dissonantly be violent against is a demon. However, lacing a burger >with cyanide, I'd say, is not violent in the least - unless you >practice combat poisoning techniques - whereas going to the gym and >taking out your aggression on a punching bag _is_, because you're acting >violently regardless of what it's focused on. The way I interpret the Mercurian Resonance is an attunement to Social interactions. Harming people (presumably to get what you want done) is the antithesis of persuasion and manipulation. Now maybe I'm wrong to think of violence as taking an action to harm, but it makes more sense (to me at least). I personally would say a mercurian *can* use agression, they can insult people, they can point guns at people whatever but the momnet bullets start flying the moment blood starts pouring they are acting against their nature. Nicole Mercurian of Fire is not a nice person. Ramesh aka Balserph of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:26:52 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption - -----Original Message----- From: Walter Milliken To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 27 February 1999 09:27 Subject: Re: IN> Word of Redemption >[David:] >>And I like the Malakite notion myself -- a Malakite Angel of Redemption >>would be someone who'd absolutely defend a genuine candidate for redemption >>and be his most loyal supporter....but you can bet that no one will go to >>him unless they're _sure_ they're ready to redeem! And he'll deal with >>anyone who backslides before making it to an Archangel... > >I agree. Redemption isn't supposed to be easy -- facing a Malakite is a >good test of sincerity. Also, a Malakite isn't likely to be fooled. It >would be my first choice of Choir for that Word. Of course, lots of >angels are likely to try to manage redemptions, so he wouldn't be the >only choice. I suspect he'd be likely to show up to assess any reported >redemption candidates, though. Yes part of the hard part of Redemption swallowing your pride, and trying to find help. If the Angel of Redemption is going to splat you for being impure in your desire his/her word isn't going to be advanced much by it. BTW I'm not saying Malkites are combat monsters, I'm saying the Angel of Redemption couldn't scare away potential candidates. Ramseh aka Balseraph of Fiddling (Would redeem but I'm too scared to go near that malakite :-) ) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:01:38 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim - -----Original Message----- From: EDG To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 27 February 1999 06:44 Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> I'd say not acting doesn't gain dissonance and acting does gain dissonance. >> Not fair, but getting dissonance is supposed to be more of a moral choice >> for angels and if they think it's better to act they have to pay the price. > >Why shouldn't they pay the price if they think it's better not to act? >People will die either way. For the same reason that a Seraph can allow someone to lie in their presence, they are not *acting* against their nature. If however the Seraph clarifies the lie and needs to tell a "white lie" to explain how they know the Truth, then they do gain dissonance. (IMHO) >However, making that choice, again, is not a violent action. It is the >Balseraph who's set the rocket going; with no way to prevent it, the >Mercurian is simply choosing _where_ to do the damage, not whether >damage will be done, and so gains no dissonance by making either choice. Mercurians shouldn't be making choices like that, they shouldn't be thinking it's better that I kill X people then I let Y people die. When the violence starts Mercurians have to let other people act or pay the consequence simple as that. And by violence I mean actions to do harm, including a cold rational killing that an Elohite could do with out a second thought. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 03:48:50 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: IN> mercurians and balseraphim > > Mercurian touches button. Gas is released. Humans are hurt > > badly and then die. (Hurt meaning 'harm brought to,' not 'put into > > pain'). Mercurian takes dissonance. At least, as I see it. > > The dissonance rules say nothing about bringing harm to anything. What > they say is, and I quote, "Violence generates dissonance in Mercurians." > Touching a button is not generally a violent action. "Violence generates dissonance in Mercurians" is not the same as "Violent actions generate dissonance in Mercurians" Mercurians can calmly push buttons as much as they like. But if and when they realise they are responsible for the deaths of a bunch of humans... Dissonance is generated when a celestial acts against its nature, and personal pacifism aside, Mercurians really *like* humans. Discovering that they've gassed a bunch of them to death would cause a Mercurian enormous anguish. Even if it's not dissonance with a capital D, the angel's still going to feel *lousy*. And that's with a capital L. :p Shane, um, Soldier of Dreams? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:04:35 -0900 From: Armand Subject: IN> Re: Mercurian Violence >And I'm still curious: Does a Mercurian take dissonance for playing >Tekken or Street Fighter to relieve tension? > >- -EDG I think that it all depends on whether or not the Mercurian is angry or not. If every other word out of his/her mouth is a derfamation against the game, characters, or other players; then you have a case for dissonance. Then again, Mercurians that look at the screen and think, "I'm just playing a game here", get no dissonance even if they rack up a 42 hit combo followed with a fatality. There are better ways to relieve tension: jogging, cleaning, rock moving, etc. These do not promote "destruction", and do not use images of human beings fighting with each other. >Alternatively, look at violence as the use of unrestrained force. Then >playing games isn't violent unless you break the controller. > >Steve. I think that this also works. Breaking the controller sounds like someone flippin' out anyway. Armand ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1129 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.