From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 11 11:39:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA30313 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:39:45 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id LAA15143 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:29:44 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:29:44 -0600 Message-Id: <199903111729.LAA15143@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1145 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1145 In this digest: Re: IN> Bright Lilim & Geas conflict IN> More Geas Stuff Re: IN> More Geas Stuff IN> Internet Marketing Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> glad you are well IN> Re: KK IN> In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) Re: IN> The Naming of Demon Princes Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Re: IN> Proto-Impudites Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Re: IN> glad you are well Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling: Is this off topic? Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling: Is this off topic? Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Re: IN> Re: KK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:50:45 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim & Geas conflict At 10:24 AM -0800 3/11/99, Steel Angel wrote: >Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: >> If the Geaser knowingly, deliberately does anything to sabotage your >> attempt to fulfill the Geas, the Geas is broken, and you're free to go. > > Now what if the Geaser asks a friendly Calabite to sabotage it? Tougher >call. Not really. As my house rule above states, asking your friendly neighborhood Calabite to prevent the Geased from completing his Geas is "deliberately doing something to sabotage the Geas." Now, if the FNC decided on his own to lock you in the basement to prevent you from getting the Lilim's pizza, no problem. If he heard the Lilim geas you and decided to do it, no problem. If he knew the Lilim hated you, and wanted you dead, and locked you in the basement as a way to make her happy without telling her, still no problem. If the Lilim asks the FNC to pick up her dry cleaning, and on the way, the FNC runs into you, and breaks both your legs because he doesn't like your sneakers, even then, no problem. But if the Lilim says anything to the FNC with the intent of having him stop you from fulfilling the Geas, then, the Geas is toast. I see Lilim Geases as a way for a Lilim to enforce her personal symphony over other people, in a way of saying "I want this to happen." The Geas persists as long as the Lilim still desires that outcome. But if she objects too strenuously to the Geas's conditions, it falls apart. And deliberate sabotage falls under "strenuous objection" in my book. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Tasha, Balseraph Knight of Factions, the Alternate Angel of Political Correctness. | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:10:28 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: IN> More Geas Stuff I don't know if this has been addressed on the list or in canon, but here goes... If a Lilim calls in a Geas on a human, the human takes damage until he dies. No problem. What if the human in question is already dead? Does he take Soul hits? If a human dies from not fulfilling a Geas, or from some other means, and is still able to fulfill the Geas, is he still bound. For example, a human is Geased to "Give a noogie to 10 people a day for a year" The human follows this Geas until one day he breaks his arm, and, filled with despair, decides to just end it all. The human goes to Heaven. Is the human required to go around giving noogies to the Seraphim, Mercurians, and all those angels in between, not to mention the Bodhissatvas, to avoid taking Soul hits? Brian A. Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:41:21 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> More Geas Stuff On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > If a Lilim calls in a Geas on a human, the human takes damage until he > dies. No problem. What if the human in question is already dead? Does > he take Soul hits? I believe that death ends any active geasa on humans, but that hooks in (and owned by) humans in Heaven and Hell remain. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:05:46 EST From: Rickyegian@aol.com Subject: IN> Internet Marketing TO REMOVE YOUR ADDRESS, PLEASE CALL 1 (800) 242-0363 #2155 OR FAX USA (310) 495-0232 ======================= I OFFER MASS MAILING SERVICES AND SELL CLEAN LISTS! ================================================= I) PROMOTE YOUR PRODUCTS, SERVICES , OR BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY ALL OVER THE NET! ================================== I can send out your 1 page (max 50 line) message as shown below. These Specials are limited. Will not last! Book your slot today! They go fast! 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I shall then forward to you any messages that I receive on your behalf so you can contact them directly. 5)Your offer (product, service or biz opp) has to sell the recepients of the message & your ad wording has to convey to them the benefits they get by ordering. I can not predict the number of responses or orders. If I could do that, I would buy the Lotto and retire! Whoever tells you will get or can get XX% responses is lying to you! I will not do that! So please do not ask me how many responses you'll get! 6)I only take a few customers and can, if you wish, keep track of the lists I used for your mailing. My lists are in multiples of 50,000 email addresses. This way, I can make sure I do not send the same message to the same people! 7)Payment by check (takes 10 days to clear) or Money Order. Once I receive payment, I shall call you or fax you to discuss the order, and to schedule a date. 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Charge my c/card __M/C___Visa, #_______________________________________Expiry______ Name:_____________________________________________________________ ADDRESS:__________________________________________________________ City:____________________STATE:_____________ZIP:__________________ COUNTRY:_______________ Signature:________________________________ REQUIRED : Phone(____)_________________Fax (___)___________________ FAX Credit Card Orders to (310) 495-0232 or (561) 792-6175 or MAIL to: G.T.Marketing, 1129 Royal Palm Beach Blvd #39, Royal Palm Beach, Fl 33411 Once I receive your order & payment, I shall contact you regarding the mass emailing services, and mail a copy of my CD (if you ordered it). - --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:49:28 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin At 5:59 AM -0500 3/10/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >>Even waiving the part about Elohim being the only choir whacked with >>dissonance for general badness, it still seems to me that we have a sort >>of hole in the mechanics here. An angel can be a total rotter and still >>be technically unfallen. >> >This is actually one of my favorite parts about IN. Just because you are >serving Heaven or Hell doesn't mean you have to be nice or naughty >respectively. An Impudite of Valefor could be the nicest guy in the world >as long as he doesn't stick around too long. Likewise a Mercurian of Jordi >could walk up to your face and call you things that would make a Habbalah >of nightmares blush and that would be no problem. In my opinion if it were >otherwise the game would be just too limiting. > I like it too, except that it has to *fit.* A Mercurian of Jordi could call you any number of things, because you're human. But most Mercurians are, by their natures, *sympathetic.* That's their entire nature in the Symphony -- their entire role in the plan of God. An unsympathetic, unfriendly Mercurian is the same as a lying Seraph, or a frozen Ofanite, or a hateful Cherub... except all of those describe their fallen counterparts. Therefore, a Mercurian who doesn't truly *care* about humanity or the humans around him must also be courting disaster. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:35:24 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well At 8:48 PM -0500 3/10/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Whistling in the Dark >>Dissonance to me is more than Dissonance conditions anyhow. It's whenever >>things drive you out of harmony with the Symphony/force you to start >>looking back towards it. Which means I have no harm with charging a >>nonviolent but *very* unfriendly Mercurian. Especially one who uses >>mortals like chattels, ignores their pains and tramas and.... >> >>Hey wait. Don't *Impudites* use humanity? Why gosh, I think they do.... > >True, but you need to rack up actual dissonance before you fall, sure by >acting like she doesn't care about humanity she is furthuring herself from >her nature and this *could* lead her down the path of thinking "Hey, what >does it matter if I whack this one human?", but until she actually starts >racking up dissonance I don't think she's gonna fall. She may not shine >with the Radiance of Heaven, but she is an angel. A dark angel, yes, an >angel on her way down, I don't think so. (But with a little >manipulation....) > But my point is, acting against her nature should, eventually, be Dissonant - -- even if she doesn't *directly* use violence against humans. Not at the rate walking in punching would be -- in fact, very rare, as this is "off-conditions" dissonance, but it still would reflect a disharmony within herself and her connection to the Symphony and what she should be. Unfair? Perhaps -- but dang it, no one said the job was *fair.* - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:43:56 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well On Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 06:13:49PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> I am *so* glad someone else thinks Nicole is a selfish, vain, intolerant > >> preImpudite. [...] > > > > I was wondering about that. I mean, 'Oh, I'l fix it when I get around > >to it.' > > IIRC, she was out of Essence at the time, which could explain that. > Actually the single incident that most annoyed me about her was when she said something along the lines of "You're so cute. I've just got to keep you around." That really annoyed me, because it seemed so casually cruel, as if he was nothing more than a toy to play with. > Of course, the bit with her tossing a human around with a Song is > pretty well dissonance-generating, but there are other hints in > the vignette that it was following an earlier version of the > rules. Such as, I think, the fact that she couldn't have done it without spending massive amounts of Essence under the current rules for that Song. In fact, I'm not sure she could have done it at all. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "With such tripe masses of human beings were tranquilised - until those rare occasions when they woke up, saw what was happening around them, misunderstood it, and did their best to impose the stupidest possible solution on the men who normally led them." A Dark and Hungry God Arises, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:34:01 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> Re: KK Archangel Beth wrote: >>She is a perfect example of how Kobal's servitors >>serve the War effort. Malakim and Seraphim are embodiments of Honor and >>Truth -- by forcing them (in her ultimate goal) to look *ridiculous,* K.K. >>undermines the faith the others have in their most holy and most virtuous. > >And if they recognize what she's doing, the expressions on their >faces as they realize that they can kill her -- and be hooked -- >or let her loose -- and be dissonant... Actually, this isn't true. It depends on the structure of the angel's beliefs. The more the angel is focusing on the greater purpose, the less able she will be to get her hook. If the angel is thinking "Grr. Must kill demons," then she can fulfill the need and get a hook, no problem. But if the angel is thinking, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory," she is in deep trouble. The angel's Need is "serve the will of the God of Israel" and smiting her is simply instrumental to that end. She can't get the hook for that, any more than she could get a geas by giving someone who wants to write the Great American Novel a typewriter. And she has how many Body hits? 2? I would certainly let a Kanah-clone in as a PC in my game, though I would warn the player that it would suck hugely to be her. Kobal is the giggling pyscho who started off pulling the wings off flies, then birds, then angels. And she exists more or less completely on his sufference. (And she can /never/ turn her back on the Calabim around her; all it takes is for one to get mildly annoyed and she needs a new vessel, because it's nigh- impossible for her to resist their resonance.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 06:20:28 -0800 From: Daiv Barr Subject: IN> In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE6BCA.502A504E Content-Type: text/plain I know that I am late to get the Feast of Blades / in nomine gm screen package. so sorry if this is not the most timely of questions. But, having gotten that, I am wondering...who is the _canonical_ dp secrets? I am ashamed to admit I cannot remember either of their names, off hand, but I know that there are effectively, two of them. Both or neither may have croaked in canon, depending how the adventure was run...so who lived and who dies in the official universe of IN? Daiv Barr Contour Software Inc. senior technician daiv@contoursoft.com (voice) 1 800 777 1717 ext 1031 (fax) 1 800 777 9810 6:00am-2:30pm PST. - ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE6BCA.502A504E Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiAOAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcDAAsABgAUABwABAAeAQEggAMADgAAAM8HAwAL AAYAFAAcAAQAHgEBCYABACEAAAAwNzU5MjQ1OUQ4RDZEMjExOEUyODAwODBBRDE0MjVEOQD0BgEE gAEAJQAAAEluPkNBTk9OIFE6IERQIG9mIFNlY3JldHM/IChzcG9pbGVyKQBfCwENgAQAAgAAAAIA AgABA5AGAGgFAAAcAAAAQAA5ANAO5U/Ka74BHgBwAAEAAAAlAAAASW4+Q0FOT04gUTogRFAgb2Yg U2VjcmV0cz8gKHNwb2lsZXIpAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG+azMVdFkkWQ7W2BHSjigAgK0UJdkA AB4AMUABAAAABQAAAERBSVYAAAAAAwAaQAAAAAAeADBAAQAAAAUAAABEQUlWAAAAAAMAGUAAAAAA AgEJEAEAAACrAgAApwIAAJ4DAABMWkZ1oqIZGgMACgByY3BnMTI1/jIA/wIGAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMD VAIAY2gKwHNldP4yBgAGwwKDDlAD1QcTAoP2MxA/EUR9CoAIzwnZAoCXCoEOcQtgbg4QMDMU4B8L ChOyAdADMAGRIEkg6GtubwfgdBKABUAa4EhhbSALYHRlG0BvHCBnEsAbQRwgRmVhwnMFQG9mIEIL YA5wqQQgLyALgCAbEG0LgF0cIGcb0ATxCeEgCrBjdGthHHAuHtAcUB/gcvxyeR4AHWAbUAQAHgAE IK8bEByUBGAdIXQHcWwgUC0dUXEKUB0gaQIgcy6DCoYaokJ1dCwgEoD6dguAZxxgITAcEAOgG1K7 JCAbo3cCIASBJHEuJmCcd2gcUCDBHLJfYwBwhwIgDeAHQF8gZHAe0OMFkBdAdHM/G5QdEBKA/QeA ZBwyHaAeYBuCJ1EhIs8XQAeABtAEkCBlKfAcwFcFwB1RHLFpBcBuKUFzvyQgHVAdYBKAJfAkIGIk AP8a2ytiHCAKwBwgDoEFkCHwtnYiISQgdCXQK6VtH8D6QiEwaB1ALCErRQDAIFDHJEEcIAUAb2Fr KWEeEdcnUyQgDnBwCfBkJHImoHsbMi6RZC9gAjAIcBwgd3MdECqgdW4mYR/hJpJs/y9RKXAtATXD M5AHkR4RHLL3LLEN4AcxIDVQL1ESoR1COElOPwqPC5EU4jE3tCBEC3B2HXAKwHI5NX8IUAIwCGEG AB1QL8Auskn8bmMfwDk1ErADAAWxHBBXEnAnkQcwbjk1ZDrxQK8FoDwDH+ABgC4FoG05NQgodm8N 4GUpIDFoIDgwGnA3QcBBUDdZOrFleAVAGRExQHZmZGF4QUo5OBkQOTU2BjpBkBvALTI6MzBicBvQ UFNUPScWYQABRtAAAwDxPwkEAAADAP0/5AQAAAMAJgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAAACAUcAAQAAADoAAABj PVVTO2E9IDtwPUNvbnRvdXIgU29mdHdhcmU7bD1NQUlMU0VSVkVSMi05OTAzMTExNDIwMjhaLTMA AAAeADhAAQAAAAUAAABEQUlWAAAAAB4AOUABAAAABQAAAERBSVYAAAAAQAAHMBws5U/Ka74BQAAI ME5QKlDKa74BHgA9AAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AHQ4BAAAAJQAAAEluPkNBTk9OIFE6IERQIG9mIFNl Y3JldHM/IChzcG9pbGVyKQAAAAAeADUQAQAAADQAAAA8RkE3NTRBRkQwNUI5RDIxMUE5MUUwMDEw NUFDODM1NTgxNzlFM0ZAbWFpbHNlcnZlcj4ACwApAAAAAAALACMAAAAAAAMABhD/1if6AwAHEOwB AAADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASUtOT1dUSEFUSUFNTEFURVRPR0VUVEhFRkVB U1RPRkJMQURFUy9JTk5PTUlORUdNU0NSRUVOUEFDS0FHRVNPU09SUllJRlRISVNJU05PVFRIRU1P U1RUSU1FTFlPRlFVRVNUSQAAAAACAX8AAQAAADQAAAA8RkE3NTRBRkQwNUI5RDIxMUE5MUUwMDEw NUFDODM1NTgxNzlFM0ZAbWFpbHNlcnZlcj4AF1c= - ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE6BCA.502A504E-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:42:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Naming of Demon Princes As a side-note on names, or rather titles, I've often thought that "Dark Humor" was kind of clunky phrasing; "Demon Prince of Mockery" might be better, if you construe "mockery" broadly enough. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:21:27 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Whistling in the Dark wrote: >An unsympathetic, >unfriendly Mercurian is the same as a lying Seraph, No a unfriendly Mercurian is the same as a Seraph twisting the Truth Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:33:00 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Proto-Impudites Rich Gant wrote on 11 March 1999 02:11 >On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> >I might note at this point that that Cherub has, according to subsequent >> >stories, fallen. And IMO, Nicole is an Impudite waiting to happen. >> >> How so? >> Does she use violence against humans? No. > >Yes, actually. > >"A Bright Dream", pg. 8, In Nomine main rulebook: > >And then, just as quickly, he was thrown back across the alley by some >invisible force, knives spinning out of his hands as he hit the brick wall >and slid down, landing face-first on the pavement. > >Next column, same page. > >"And that piece of shit at our feet who's about to regain >consciousness," she whispered into one ear, "he would've killed you if I >hadn't stopped him." > >She *somehow* threw her ex-soldier across an alley and knocked him >unconscious. Sounds like "violence against humans" to me. 1 word. D'oh. I concede the point I have been very stupid and wrong, you are right. Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:36:44 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well - -----Original Message----- From: Whistling in the Dark To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 11 March 1999 07:46 Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well >At 8:48 PM -0500 3/10/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Whistling in the Dark >>>Dissonance to me is more than Dissonance conditions anyhow. It's whenever >>>things drive you out of harmony with the Symphony/force you to start >>>looking back towards it. Which means I have no harm with charging a >>>nonviolent but *very* unfriendly Mercurian. Especially one who uses >>>mortals like chattels, ignores their pains and tramas and.... >>> >>>Hey wait. Don't *Impudites* use humanity? Why gosh, I think they do.... >> >>True, but you need to rack up actual dissonance before you fall, sure by >>acting like she doesn't care about humanity she is furthuring herself from >>her nature and this *could* lead her down the path of thinking "Hey, what >>does it matter if I whack this one human?", but until she actually starts >>racking up dissonance I don't think she's gonna fall. She may not shine >>with the Radiance of Heaven, but she is an angel. A dark angel, yes, an >>angel on her way down, I don't think so. (But with a little >>manipulation....) >> > >But my point is, acting against her nature should, eventually, be Dissonant >-- even if she doesn't *directly* use violence against humans. Not at the >rate walking in punching would be -- in fact, very rare, as this is >"off-conditions" dissonance, but it still would reflect a disharmony within >herself and her connection to the Symphony and what she should be. > >Unfair? Perhaps -- but dang it, no one said the job was *fair.* I have condeded the point that she is on the way down, but I think the dissonance she will build up will be because her attitude toward humans will develop so she doesn't care if she uses violence against tham or not. Basically not acting like a Mercurian should will lead her into situations where she will use violence and she won't see that it is wrong, in her opinion she will be justified, she will see that this dissonance is unfair and start blaming humans for causing her losing the ability to use her Resonance (for some time after getting the dissonance and due to the modifier dissonance makes) and the Discord she will gain and find the use of violence more justifiable and so she will Fall. - Or something like that Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:32:47 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling In a message dated 3/10/99 6:08:58 PM, ramesh.sat@telinco.co.uk writes: >Mark wrote >> >>In a message dated 3/10/99 2:46:27 PM, anthoch@earlham.edu writes: >> >>>I think Ramesh means it as in "messing around with things," in which >>>case, a Balseraph is perfectly appropriate. "Of _course_ it's supposed >>>to be this way! Geez, you guys have _no_ appreciation for art..." >>> >>>-EDG >>> ;) >>>-- >>>EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination >>>anthoch@earlham.edu >>>"I never trust anybody who can't lie." - Caitlin >> >>In that case, I'd go with a Balseraph of Technology, or possibly Theft. > > >Hmmm interesting, I'll give it a thought. Possibly Asmodeus though since >Fiddling is just a Game and my main fiddle is a Deck of Cards. > >Ramesh aka Demon of Fiddling, Balseraph of ???? >"First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you >remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with >Fiddling" > Of course, an angel of Fiddling *could* be perfectly appropriate: An Ofanite of Wind would make an excellent Fiddler, under this definition. Mark (Who at one point was vying for the Word of Superior Assignment...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:33:36 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> glad you are well >>At 8:48 PM -0500 3/10/99, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >I have condeded the point that she is on the way down, but I think the >dissonance she will build up will be because her attitude toward humans >will develop so she doesn't care if she uses violence against tham or not. > >Basically not acting like a Mercurian should will lead her into situations >where she will use violence and she won't see that it is wrong, in her >opinion she will be justified, she will see that this dissonance is unfair >and start blaming humans for causing her losing the ability to use her >Resonance (for some time after getting the dissonance and due to the >modifier dissonance makes) and the Discord she will gain and find the use >of violence more justifiable and so she will Fall. - Or something like >that. I can accept that. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:05:04 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling >Of course, an angel of Fiddling *could* be perfectly appropriate: An Ofanite >of Wind would make an excellent Fiddler, under this definition. Possibly, I'd go for Wind I *love* motion (and it wolud explain the slight Dodgyness of my Word) but my sense of direction and Area Knowledge sucks too much to be a Ofanite. I'm probably a Seraph or possibly an Elohite, scratch that way too passionate to be an Elohite definetly into logic but that's argueably about Truth. > Mark (Who at one point was vying for the Word of Superior Assignment...) Hmmm... would you work for Yves then? Yves being the namer of all things. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:04:19 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK >Archangel Beth wrote: >>>She is a perfect example of how Kobal's servitors >>>serve the War effort. Malakim and Seraphim are embodiments of Honor and >>>Truth -- by forcing them (in her ultimate goal) to look *ridiculous,* K.K. >>>undermines the faith the others have in their most holy and most virtuous. >> >>And if they recognize what she's doing, the expressions on their >>faces as they realize that they can kill her -- and be hooked -- >>or let her loose -- and be dissonant... > >Actually, this isn't true. It depends on the structure of the angel's >beliefs. The more the angel is focusing on the greater purpose, the >less able she will be to get her hook. > >If the angel is thinking "Grr. Must kill demons," then she can fulfill the >need and get a hook, no problem. > >But if the angel is thinking, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: >the whole earth is full of his glory," she is in deep trouble. The angel's >Need is "serve the will of the God of Israel" and smiting her is simply >instrumental to that end. She can't get the hook for that, any more than >she could get a geas by giving someone who wants to write the Great >American Novel a typewriter. > Malakim, definitionally, Shall Not Suffer Evil To Live. K.K. is many things. One of those is evil. The pure, unrepentent evil that made Lenny Bruce and makes George Carlin hysterical -- not in and of themselves, but in the destruction of the 'good' establishment, the tearing down of icons, the ruining of the hypocritically pure. Malakim will have a Need to take her down, almost by definition. Probably it won't be the top Need in their mind, but by gum it will be a Need and while her Body hits are low, her Perception is astronomical. She'll find it. She'll grant it. They'll suffer for it. We're discussing Geasa/1 or 2, as I recall -- these are generally *minor* needs. Other angelic types will be harder for her. But I bet she's good at goading them. Lying and taunting Seraphim, for example. >I would certainly let a Kanah-clone in as a PC in my game, though I would >warn the player that it would suck hugely to be her. Kobal is the giggling >pyscho who started off pulling the wings off flies, then birds, then angels. >And she exists more or less completely on his sufference. (And she can >/never/ turn her back on the Calabim around her; all it takes is for one >to get mildly annoyed and she needs a new vessel, because it's nigh- >impossible for her to resist their resonance.) > Man, that's not at *all* how I play Kobal. Kobal to me is the one who takes the time to install the upside-down font on your computer, then set it so when you boot your system up, all your menus and desktop items have upside down names. Kobal is the one who suggested "The Committee to Re-Elect the President" to Nixon's staff, so that his campaign was run by CREEP. Dave Berry and Dilbert further his word, and we all love it. There are a lot of *good* things* about his Word and what it does, but it also hurts people, subjects them to ridicule, makes them look stupid and undermines their faith in themselves. Do you think any President has enjoyed what Saturday Night Live has done to him? Kobal smiles as that President gets bitter towards the press and media and his own constituants, especially when his most painful moments are lampooned for all the people and everyone tells him to "lighten up, it's just a joke." Kobal smiles when an artist throws her soul and personal naked into the night, revealing all of herself she can, with her music and her pain becoming art for the people, and the next week on Mad-TV she sees someone dressed up like her, doing her act and making it seem pretentious and hollow and self-absorbed and people *laugh* and *laugh* at it. The next time you tell a Monica Lewinsky Joke, or a Linda Tripp Joke, or a Dan Quayle Joke, Kobal smiles. Dark Humor can be a goodness, but its prince drives it to hurt people -- hurt them and humiliate them and break their spirits and -- most importantly -- drive them away from others, and into themselves. Remember, Kobal was the first Prince Lucifer set against Yves himself. If enough people make Dan Quayle jokes, so Dan Quayle turns inward and selfish, since he's nothing but an object of ridicule *anyway,* he's closer to his Fate. Malphas *loves* Kobal. When you recount the bonehead thing your office mate did to others, and they laugh, Kobal is laughing too. When you pour sugar into that first cup of coffee in the morning and some *bastard* has replaced it with salt as a joke and you're in a rotten mood the rest of the day, Kobal's mood improves. Kobal is as subtle as someone putting your in mail in the out basket and as blunt as having a bucket of pig's blood fall on your head at the Prom. He is Dark Humor, and he's not laughing with you. K.K. does more than *please* Kobal. K.K. does more than further his ends. K.K. *amuses* Kobal. She came up with something he never thought of, and she's building it to a blow off like no one's business. And it could sow dissension, help angels to fall, and -- most importantly -- be one Hell of a joke on them. And she's doing it with their rules and their guidelines. The natural satire on the things they hold most dear -- the holiness of the Seraphs. The virtue of the Malakim. If she manages to get her master plan to work, it's not just that a bunch of Malakim will clumsily sing Gilbert and Sullivan in front of the most powerful and holy of all the lower Heavens... a touch of Hell *and* Kobal's Word will extend into the very heart of the Seraphim Council. If she pulls it off, he'd give her a distinction. If she gets a *recording* of it, he'd sponsor her for a *word.* This is why I like K.K. so much. Not only because it's a hysterical idea, but because it's a hysterical idea that *works* in even the Darkest IN interpretations, in my opinion. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:16:48 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling: Is this off topic? In a message dated 3/11/99 8:12:00 AM, ramesh.sat@telinco.co.uk writes: (In response to me...) >> Mark (Who at one point was vying for the Word of Superior Assignment...) > >Hmmm ... would you work for Yves then? Yves being the namer of all things. Cherub of Destiny, that was my gig. (Although Stone had its attractions as well...) Mark (Who usually is a GM...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:34:16 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling: Is this off topic? Hey Mark. It's not really off-topic it's just definetly 100% fluff. >In a message dated 3/11/99 8:12:00 AM, ramesh.sat@telinco.co.uk writes: >(In response to me...) > >>> Mark (Who at one point was vying for the Word of Superior Assignment...) >> >>Hmmm ... would you work for Yves then? Yves being the namer of all things. > >Cherub of Destiny, that was my gig. (Although Stone had its attractions as >well...) Both very Cool Words. > Mark (Who usually is a GM...) Yeah, doesn't that just suck! BTW thanx for pointing out a way I could be an angel, I'm really *good* at Heart you know. :-) Gotta do some shoppin'. Later. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:47:55 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling On a more serious note, there are folk tales of the Devil turning up at dances and playing the fiddle, leading the people to dance until their bodies are worn away and only their heads remain, still hopping around on the ground. What Word and Band would such a fiend belong to? :) My nomination would be a Habbalite of Gluttony, punishing those who enjoy such frivolous pleasures by giving them their fill... and then some. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:53:47 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Malakim, definitionally, Shall Not Suffer Evil To Live. K.K. is many > things. One of those is evil. The pure, unrepentent evil that made Lenny > Bruce and makes George Carlin hysterical -- not in and of themselves, but > in the destruction of the 'good' establishment, the tearing down of icons, > the ruining of the hypocritically pure. > > Malakim will have a Need to take her down, almost by definition. Probably > it won't be the top Need in their mind, but by gum it will be a Need and > while her Body hits are low, her Perception is astronomical. She'll find > it. She'll grant it. They'll suffer for it. We're discussing Geasa/1 or > 2, as I recall -- these are generally *minor* needs. I don't think the Malakite's Need will be to vessel-kill her, which is what she's offering. It will be to destroy her and scatter her Forces to the four corners of the Symphony (if the Symphony has corners...) to make sure she can never ever trap anyone again. *That* Need she won't be meeting without being quite unable to get anything out of it, I think. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:01:44 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > On a more serious note, there are folk tales of the Devil turning > up at dances and playing the fiddle, leading the people to dance > until their bodies are worn away and only their heads remain, still > hopping around on the ground. What Word and Band would such a fiend > belong to? :) Yechch! I'd vote Habbalaite of Dark Humor. Or maybe Calabite. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:25:01 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK > K.K. does more than *please* Kobal. K.K. does more than further his ends. > K.K. *amuses* Kobal. She came up with something he never thought of, and > she's building it to a blow off like no one's business. And it could sow > dissension, help angels to fall, and -- most importantly -- be one Hell of > a joke on them. And she's doing it with their rules and their guidelines. > The natural satire on the things they hold most dear -- the holiness of the > Seraphs. The virtue of the Malakim. If she manages to get her master plan > to work, it's not just that a bunch of Malakim will clumsily sing Gilbert > and Sullivan in front of the most powerful and holy of all the lower > Heavens... a touch of Hell *and* Kobal's Word will extend into the very > heart of the Seraphim Council. If she pulls it off, he'd give her a > distinction. If she gets a *recording* of it, he'd sponsor her for a > *word.* Ah, but in this exact point is how Kanah is terminally flawed! A joke about Woodrow Wilson is no longer funny (or makes sense) today. Witty quips buried in the works of Christopher Marlow are missed by literature students. Weekly updates from 1983 aren't as entertaining now as they were then. Monican Lewinsky jokes got lame months ago. Dark Comedy is _topical_. That's its entire schtick. And not only that, the joke is only funny _once_. Dark Comedy servitors must be Funny every day or else suffer dissonance - their very natures are Funny oriented. Every day there must be a new trick, a new joke, a new riddle, a new annoyance on the sly. This is why _all_ of my Dark Comedy characters, PC or NPC, have at the very minimum above average intelligences: they have to think up new and crazy stunts every single day of their lives to not only avoid dissonance but to please their Boss. For 'sample, Daimon can answer Pat's phone with "He can't come to the phone right now, he's tied to the bed, can I take a message?" when Dominic is on the other side exactly once... the second time it's predictable and boring. A funny joke the first time, and enough to score essence, but after that it's lame. Em, who occasionally serves Dark Humor, at least in clothing choices, can only tell the Story of the Green Gorillas or the Story of the Flaming Bananas once, and after that the story doesn't have the same effect. The punchline has already come and gone. And this is where Kanah falls flat. Kanah is the anathema of the Dark Comedy servitor: she has exactly one trick, and nothing else. And she's not very bright. Getting hooks on Malakim forever is pretty boring after a while, and soon Kobal will get bored of her and stop handing her vessels because it's obviously a waste of his enormous, world shattering intelligence. And let's say she does get enough hooks that they perform Gilbert and Sullivan, which according to the trendy, well-dressed, good looking, well liked, enormously intelligent Impudite Prince [at least in his mind] of hers is pretty old and dated already... even by joke standards, in the Council Spires. And let's say, for argument's sake, that Kobal actually pays attention, and he's not busy elsewhere trying to annoy every other Prince in Hell. What happens? He says, "Oh, hey, that's pretty good." And then he promptly recycles her forces, because that joke can only be funny once. She's done. Kobal has almost no use to a one trick pony on Earth. You've got to be Funny over and over and over and over... So she's not a good PC, but she's just fine as an NPC, because she doesn't need to exist forever. Just long enough to be a pain in the ass. - - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1145 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.