From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 11 13:46:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14923 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:46:31 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA26258 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:44:53 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:44:53 -0600 Message-Id: <199903111944.NAA26258@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1146 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1146 In this digest: IN> RE: In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling IN> Rise of the Lilim Re: IN> In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin Re: IN> The Naming of Demon Princes Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Rise of the Lilim IN> Re: Kobal Re: IN> Re: KK Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling: Is this off topic? Re: IN> Rise of the Lilim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:30:25 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: IN> RE: In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) That would be Gebbeleth (first) and Alaemon (second). See http://www.incyclopedia.org/all-superiors.html for such details as are available. > -----Original Message----- > From: Daiv Barr [mailto:Daiv@contoursoft.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 6:20 AM > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) > > I know that I am late to get the Feast of Blades / in nomine gm > screen package. so sorry if this is not the most timely of questions. > But, having gotten that, I am wondering...who is the _canonical_ dp > secrets? I am ashamed to admit I cannot remember either of their names, > off hand, but I know that there are effectively, two of them. Both or > neither may have croaked in canon, depending how the adventure was > run...so who lived and who dies in the official universe of IN? > Daiv Barr > Contour Software Inc. > senior technician > daiv@contoursoft.com > (voice) 1 800 777 1717 ext 1031 > (fax) 1 800 777 9810 > 6:00am-2:30pm PST. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:31:04 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK >On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >> Malakim, definitionally, Shall Not Suffer Evil To Live. K.K. is many >> things. One of those is evil. The pure, unrepentent evil that made Lenny >> Bruce and makes George Carlin hysterical -- not in and of themselves, but >> in the destruction of the 'good' establishment, the tearing down of icons, >> the ruining of the hypocritically pure. >> >> Malakim will have a Need to take her down, almost by definition. Probably >> it won't be the top Need in their mind, but by gum it will be a Need and >> while her Body hits are low, her Perception is astronomical. She'll find >> it. She'll grant it. They'll suffer for it. We're discussing Geasa/1 or >> 2, as I recall -- these are generally *minor* needs. > >I don't think the Malakite's Need will be to vessel-kill her, which is >what she's offering. It will be to destroy her and scatter her Forces to >the four corners of the Symphony (if the Symphony has corners...) to make >sure she can never ever trap anyone again. > >*That* Need she won't be meeting without being quite unable to get >anything out of it, I think. :) > *A* Need, yes. Need/3 or Need/4, I should think -- Soul-death/Celestial Destruction is *always* significant. Which doesn't preclude a Need/1 or Need/2 to kill her vessel, throw her in trama, get her off the Corporeal plane so she can't work Evil and take a potential opponent off the field. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:56:47 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling In a message dated 3/11/99 9:08:57 AM, earlw@mc.com writes: >Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > >> On a more serious note, there are folk tales of the Devil turning >> up at dances and playing the fiddle, leading the people to dance >> until their bodies are worn away and only their heads remain, still >> hopping around on the ground. What Word and Band would such a fiend >> belong to? :) > >Yechch! I'd vote Habbalite of Dark Humor. Or maybe Calabite. > >Earl Believe it or not, this was the sort of thing I was thinking about when I proposed the Habbalite of the Media. Not to say that Gluttony or Dark Humor wouldn't also fit. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:05:14 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Rise of the Lilim Here's what I was trying to say in a nutshell: A Lilim is selfish because a) she is a demon and that's God's Law (apparently), but more importantly, because b) she will only offer to help you if she can get a Geas out of it, without even telling you what the price is. There is no contract with a Lilim in those terms because she makes the rules and kills you for breaking them. Put it this way; if the Lilim rez only extended as far as seeing another's need, then she wouldn't be motivated - as a demon - to help people. Maybe this is a 'fault' of the mechanics when faced with the philosophical nature of the setting. (That's not a criticism btw). In other words it's only what she can get put of it that drives her to fulfil these needs. Therefore one could say that Lilim don't truly help people. This means that, to my mind, Lilim resonance is selfish, which contradicts what is written in their writeup in the book, and is why I don't understand how they can redeem and keep their power. With regards to likening Geasa to contracts, there are a few differences: breaking a contract won't kill your soul! And the legal institutions surrounding such constructs are MAN made (YMMV). This follows a similar argument to an earlier comment/debate about Dominic and the Law (most of which I have conveniently misused or forgotten). Thus Marc is beyond what humanity has done in the name of his Word. Besides, even the small print of his contracts are laid out for all to see, s'not his fault if he's all-seeing and all-knowing compared to some lowly DP! "revealed preferences and Pareto-improvements" Flips through rulebook…what page are they on then? (Actually I have no idea what they are at all!) EDG: "> Right. IMC Bright Lilim of Marc were strictly forbidden to invoke > geases, because they were one-sided and involuntary. One-sided? How?" If I may, it's one-sided because it favours the Lilim (and may well harm the Geasee). Besides I doubt any Bright Lilim would ever truly reveal the truth about her 'gifts', i.e. explain that if you don't fulfil tem your soul will die! She would never be able to. It is always one-sided. The other party gets a lot out of it…maybe even death! "What's the difference? Lilim share that way too, only if you take my bread and don't give me your cheese, you get hurt for it." I think you're sorely missing the point :-) That isn't sharing! I mean if we were two kids in the playground and you didn't give me a go on your spacehopper and I hurt you for it…would that be good or bad? Beth: "Hm. I actually hadn't read it that way. I was reading "selfless" as, "acting for the greater good" or "for the good of others" or simply, "giving without asking/wanting something else in return." " Thaty was my reading, for the purpose of this debate…that's how it comes across in the rules. Ramesh: "Yeah, just like the way my Mum making me eat is selfish, that *****! :-)" She would be selfish if she was only thinking of herself in the process. That seems to me to be the Lilim mindset. ">Actually, you can't walk away from a normal >contract either. Not legally, at least. Unless >there are extenuating circumstances. Ah, so they must be evil too then! :-)" You can walk away from a normal contract because your soul won't (suddenly) shrivel up and die. The contract will also have everything written into it - even if it's in the most convoluted legal small print around - it's still there - and what's mopre it's within the scope of human experience, while a demon from hell isn't. In fact most people would probably laugh if a Lilim they hom they entered a contract with turned round and explained they were hellspawn and could suck men's souls if they didn't obey! More fool you for not paying attention. But when you are dealing with a Lilim you expect her, if you are human at least, to be a human with no special powers to suck you dry! So to speak! ~l~ "I like the Idea of Brights making you do what is best for you even if you don't want to do it." But how do they know what's best for you? Maybe the ones serving Yves do, but Lilim resonance doesn't have that specific function does it. Martin, who apologises for the bizarre heading in the subject line of my last post (and no one noticed!), PR man for the Revealing Science of God and the Heart of the Sunrise. Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 13:14 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In>CANON Q: DP of Secrets? (spoiler) > But, having gotten that, I am wondering...who is the _canonical_ dp >secrets? Alemon. I am ashamed to admit I cannot remember either of their names, off >hand, but I know that there are effectively, two of them. The old one was Gebbeleth. > Both or neither >may have croaked in canon, depending how the adventure was run...so who >lived and who dies in the official universe of IN? I think Gebbeleth is officially toast, from the setup of the adventure, and I don't recall that in the normal course of things that Alemon was likely to get involved personally, so he should be OK. One of his high-level Word-bound servitors might or might not have gotten killed, though. I doubt if canon will bring him up again, so he's probably CDaU (Canon Doubt and Uncertainty). [BTW, you're apparently using one of those $#@#$W MS mail readers that generates major amounts of garbage in MIME messages -- this is unfriendly on mailing lists, and you should turn that "feature" off. It roughly tripled the size of your message for those of us whose mailreaders don't silently discard the cruft, and it bloats the archived and digest versions of this list a lot.] - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:20:17 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> dissonance vs. sin - -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Walsh but personally I seriously doubt she is > hellbound, I agree she is a hell of a bitch but she serves Fire." > It's the attitude more than anything else. Because she _is_ a bitch, I don't see why she would care whether she Fell or not. I got the impression that one of the objectives of that initial story was to portray the demons as bad but fun, and the angels as dysfunctional bastards :) It was a great mood-setter, I thought. Whether the characters would make good PCs or NPCs.. I dunno. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:31:12 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> The Naming of Demon Princes On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > As a side-note on names, or rather titles, I've often thought > that "Dark Humor" was kind of clunky phrasing; "Demon Prince > of Mockery" might be better, if you construe "mockery" broadly > enough. I've always preferred "Schadenfreud", but I usually end up having to explain it. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:14:58 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK Em writes: >Ah, but in this exact point is how Kanah is terminally flawed! > [Many excellent examples deleted] >Kanah is the anathema of the Dark Comedy servitor: she has exactly one >trick, and nothing else. And she's not very bright. Getting hooks on >Malakim forever is pretty boring after a while, and soon Kobal will get >bored of her and stop handing her vessels because it's obviously a waste >of his enormous, world shattering intelligence. > I agree, completely -- if we're assuming she's told him what her plans are (which I don't recall if she did or not). If all he knows is she's planning *something,* and building up a large cast of the most staid for it, I'm willing to bet he's willing to wait and see what she's got. (And if it isn't funny, he'll tear her to bits in an ironic and amusing way.) >And let's say she does get enough hooks that they perform Gilbert and >Sullivan, which according to the trendy, well-dressed, good >looking, well liked, enormously intelligent Impudite Prince [at least in >his mind] of hers is pretty old and dated already... even by joke >standards, in the Council Spires. And let's say, for argument's sake, >that Kobal actually pays attention, and he's not busy elsewhere trying to >annoy every other Prince in Hell. What happens? He says, "Oh, hey, >that's pretty good." And then he promptly recycles her forces, because >that joke can only be funny once. She's done. > G&S is pure Dark Humor, and still sells out on Broadway when it's performed. And what it mostly is is a puncturing and satire of overstuffed, overly staid, "good and honest" societies. 'Pirates of Pensance" is subtitled 'the Slave of Duty,' after all. Modern Major General is still so well known as a song that Saturday Night Live and other such groups use its music in a parody at least once a season. Heck, I'm in a tiny New England town, and there's a production of H.M.S. Pinafore the local players are rehersing right *now.* And, what is more important, it makes a *point.* I think Kobal would love the joke. And reward the perpetuator. And not recycle her. >Kobal has almost no use to a one trick pony on Earth. You've got to be >Funny over and over and over and over... > Which to me means for about three days he walks past Kanah, shakes his head and sings a few lines from Pinafore to her... and then he gets a look of 'what have you done for me lately,' and Kanah'd better start working on her followup, it had better take a different form, and it'd better be *funny.* Oh, and half the Malakim on Laurence's personal squad want her dead. Good adventure seeds there.... >So she's not a good PC, but she's just fine as an NPC, because she doesn't >need to exist forever. Just long enough to be a pain in the ass. > I think she could work either way, but it would be post-Joke that she really had a shot for development. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:52:38 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > On a more serious note, there are folk tales of the Devil turning > > up at dances and playing the fiddle, leading the people to dance > > until their bodies are worn away and only their heads remain, still > > hopping around on the ground. What Word and Band would such a fiend > > belong to? :) > > Yechch! I'd vote Habbalaite of Dark Humor. Or maybe Calabite. > > Earl But then you've got to watch out for a certain Soldier of God who seems to be able to out fiddle Lucifer himself... o/" The devil went down to Georgia o/" o/" He was looking for soul to steal... o/" - -- Berian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:52:00 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK > I agree, completely -- if we're assuming she's told him what her plans are > (which I don't recall if she did or not). If all he knows is she's > planning *something,* and building up a large cast of the most staid for > it, I'm willing to bet he's willing to wait and see what she's got. (And > if it isn't funny, he'll tear her to bits in an ironic and amusing way.) It doesn't really matter if she's told Kobal or not. Kanah is bound to Kobal, so she's bound to his dissonance condition, which is: be Funny every day or suck dissonance. I can't imagine that she can go and get a geas and die every single day and this is still considered as Funny as the first time... ... and as a GM, she'd start getting dissonance from me the second time she pulled that if she wasn't doing something Funny the second day as well to supplement it. And the third, and the fourth. Pretty soon she'd become DiscordGirl. Because Dark Humor has to satisfy their GM as well, which might be more difficult then satisfying Kobal. > G&S is pure Dark Humor, and still sells out on Broadway when it's > performed. And what it mostly is is a puncturing and satire of > overstuffed, overly staid, "good and honest" societies. 'Pirates of > Pensance" is subtitled 'the Slave of Duty,' after all. Modern Major > General is still so well known as a song that Saturday Night Live and other > such groups use its music in a parody at least once a season. Heck, I'm in > a tiny New England town, and there's a production of H.M.S. Pinafore the > local players are rehersing right *now.* Yes, and how much of this humor is dated? How many times has Kobal seen Pirates of Pensance in the theaters of Shal-Mari? How many movie adaptations? Yes, every new generation of human beings which comes along goes, "Oh, cool!" But a generation of human beings lasts 20 years. Kobal has been around far longer then that, and you can be rest assured that he's seen it on Broadway. When it was new, it was great and hilarious and he _approved_. But it's been a century... and it's been _done_. To death. Sometimes, literally. > And, what is more important, it makes a *point.* I think Kobal would love > the joke. And reward the perpetuator. And not recycle her. What, you don't think he'd recycle someone who pulled a Funny that has topped his current project? > Which to me means for about three days he walks past Kanah, shakes his head > and sings a few lines from Pinafore to her... and then he gets a look of > 'what have you done for me lately,' and Kanah'd better start working on her > followup, it had better take a different form, and it'd better be *funny.* > Oh, and half the Malakim on Laurence's personal squad want her dead. Good > adventure seeds there.... Three days is three points of dissonance. She doesn't have that long to bask. She has to move on instantly... and if she tries to start over with the same schtick, well, the joke has already been done, now hasn't it? Kobal sighs. "It's been done, my dear. It was all over HNN last night. Now it's rather trite. And so, my dear, are you." - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 13:54 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK [Anders:] >I don't think the Malakite's Need will be to vessel-kill her, which is >what she's offering. It will be to destroy her and scatter her Forces to >the four corners of the Symphony (if the Symphony has corners...) to make >sure she can never ever trap anyone again. But that's *very* hard -- she's nasty at celestial combat, and will run away at the first opportunity. Also, Malakim *rarely* are able to soul-kill demons; generally they have to satisfy their oath by killing them corporeally. At least for the time being.... There's also the problem of *knowing* that KK is KK -- if they don't know who she is, just that she's evil, and an obvious demon, they may kill her without realizing what's going on. Of course, once she's hooked them once, and they find out about it, they tend to go looking for her afterward, in groups. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:59:46 -0000 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK >Kanah is the anathema of the Dark Comedy servitor: she has exactly one >trick, and nothing else. And she's not very bright. Getting hooks on >Malakim forever is pretty boring after a while, and soon Kobal will get >bored of her and stop handing her vessels because it's obviously a waste >of his enormous, world shattering intelligence. > So maybe he got bored of her ages ago, but still finds it amusing to see her continually dying in really painful ways :) Sure, he is still mildly amused. Just not for the reason she thinks. Maybe he can even slip in suggestions from time to time, "Beautiful death, but perhaps next time you could get them to flay you alive, roll you in salt and then crucify the remains slowly over an open fire. Hmm?" jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:57:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK I'd imagine that the big build-up of Malakin hooks is a special project for KK, not her source of daily-bread, keep-dissonance- from-the-door jokes. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 14:10 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK [Em:] >It doesn't really matter if she's told Kobal or not. Kanah is bound to n>Kobal, so she's bound to his dissonance condition, which is: be Funny >every day or suck dissonance. I can't imagine that she can go and get a >geas and die every single day and this is still considered as Funny as the >first time... Actually, that's not as much of a problem as it appears. Remember, KK *wants* to attract angels. She can do all kinds of Funny stuff that will draw angelic attention to her, which most of Kobal's Servitors need to avoid. After all, she *wants* angels to quickly realize she's a demon, and therefore fair game. So she can merrily do other Funny stuff all day long, until an angel shows up to stop it. Nice gig, if you can get it. I would also argue that your view of Kobal's dissonance condition is maybe too extreme. It's not necessarily if *Kobal* thinks it's funny, it's whether you can get someone else to laugh at the victim's misfortune. If all Kobal's Servitors had to come up with a *unique* new trick every day, his Servitors wouldn't be able to do much after a few decades -- there aren't that many *new* jokes to pull. Admittedly, staying in vessels means KK needs to stay on Kobal's good side, more than most Servitors. So the standards probably *are* higher for her. But the constant pricking at the angelic mindset should be something that he'd approve of. And she can get away with some outrageous stunts that most servitors would avoid for fear of getting ID'ed and killed by the Host. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:08:05 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Rise of the Lilim Folks must think I have *no* other life. Work's just slow in break and all. Martin writes: >Here's what I was trying to say in a nutshell: > > A Lilim is selfish because a) she is a demon and that's God's Law >(apparently), but more importantly, because b) she will only offer to >help you if she can get a Geas out of it, without even telling you what >the price is. There is no contract with a Lilim in those terms because >she makes the rules and kills you for breaking them. Put it this way; if >the Lilim rez only extended as far as seeing another's need, then she >wouldn't be motivated - as a demon - to help people. Maybe this is a >'fault' of the mechanics when faced with the philosophical nature of the >setting. (That's not a criticism btw). In other words it's only what she >can get put of it that drives her to fulfil these needs. Therefore one >could say that Lilim don't truly help people. > Here's my nutshell rebuttal: A Lilim is selfish because at the dawn of time, Lilith was created to be the equal and partner of Adam, but he wanted her to be subservient, so she walked out of Eden and, being alone in the Universe -- pre and post Fall -- she decided that no one was possibly going to look out for her interests so By Power she was going to *herself.* She created her children in her image and taught them one lesson -- inexorably -- by charging them for the Forces she made them up with: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. If you're going to be be free, it's because you make *yourself* Free, because no one else gives a Damn. To ensure this, she gave them a power -- a power that meant that no one could do to her daughters what was done to her. After all, she was promised equality in Eden, but the Angels *reneged* on her in the name of Free Will. So, if any of her children do a service for someone, they will get equal service in return, and they have the power to enforce it. This is what they are taught, and this is what the vast majority of them believe. >This means that, to my mind, Lilim resonance is selfish, which >contradicts what is written in their writeup in the book, and is why I >don't understand how they can redeem and keep their power. > To my mind, the Lilim resonance is a gift (the only one Lilith doesn't make them pay for, since they pay for all their Forces) given so that no one can abuse them. How that Lilim *uses* that gift is up to her -- because she *has* Free Will. If a Lilim redeems, and uses that gift to force people into helping themselves or seeing new ways or fighting Deviltry, that is their choice. But to redeem, they have to overcome all that they know, and accept that there might be something better than Looking Out For Number One. >With regards to likening Geasa to contracts, there are a few >differences: breaking a contract won't kill your soul! There are Malakim who would disagree. Break your word to one of them and he might be perfectly willing to do nasty celestial things to you. > And the legal >institutions surrounding such constructs are MAN made (YMMV). I am a man. I see things as Mortals do, in Mortal terms. If I sign a contract with someone and fail to meet my end of it, the other side invokes the Geas they're capable of (lawsuit, fines, prison, sending Vito over to break my knees, chain me to a bronze replica of the Pope and throwing me into Lake Winapausakee, and so on.) In Celestial Terms, a Lilim's contract is Enforced. You accept her service, you pay it back. Or else. If that's not acceptable, don't take what she offers. If she tricks you into it... no one said life was fair. And if in the end Humanity is that micron closer to Destiny and not Fate, it's selfless on her part. It's not the gun that's evil, it's the target the bullet hits that makes it good or evil. >If I may, it's one-sided because it favours the Lilim (and may well harm >the Geasee). Besides I doubt any Bright Lilim would ever truly reveal >the truth about her 'gifts', i.e. explain that if you don't fulfil tem >your soul will die! She would never be able to. It is always one-sided. >The other party gets a lot out of itÖmaybe even death! > Nope. Not a bit. It's only harmful if the other party welshes. If Brights *can't* enforce the agreement, it's one-sided against them and no Lilim would redeem no matter *why.* >"What's the difference? Lilim share that way too, only if you take my >bread and don't give me your cheese, you get hurt for it." > >I think you're sorely missing the point :-) >That isn't sharing! I mean if we were two kids in the playground and you >didn't give me a go on your spacehopper and I hurt you for itÖwould that >be good or bad? > Wrong. If we were two kids in the playground, and you offered me a go on your spacehopper in return for my milky way bar, and I gave you my milky way bar and you ate it and then you told me to get lost, because it's *your* spacehopper and you changed your mind, I have a right to justice. Be it a teacher (non-Lilim response) or me punching you until you A) beat me up (resisted the Geas), B) gave in and honored the agreement, or C) I beat you up. This is a *deal.* People who break deals are selfish. People who force them to abide by the deal they made are not innately so. > >You can walk away from a normal contract because your soul won't >(suddenly) shrivel up and die. I come from a culture where people who break their word are shunned. Go back far enough, and my culture invented a word for such people -- Warlock, which means "Oath Breaker," and implied the breaker of oaths was in league with the Devil and turned his back on God. > But >when you are dealing with a Lilim you expect her, if you are human at >least, to be a human with no special powers to suck you dry! So to >speak! ~l~ > So... if a Cherub tells a mob boss to leave his charge alone or suffer, and the Mob boss fires a gub at them both, and the Cherub uses the Song of Shields to protect them both, and then teaches that Mob Boss a lesson... that's wrong because the Mob Boss had no idea the Cherub had special powers and couldn't know he wouldn't be able to shoot the charge? I'm sorry, but I don't have any compassion for someone who agrees to do something and then breaks his word, especially if the task is for the greater good. Let him be forced or let him be damaged -- it's not the *Bright* who's being selfish. >"I like the Idea of Brights making you do what is best for you even if >you don't want to do it." > >But how do they know what's best for you? Maybe the ones serving Yves >do, but Lilim resonance doesn't have that specific function does it. > Um? This is In Nomine. The Angels might be wrong about what's best for you or for others, but that's their motivation and what they're working towards. Selflessness and Destiny. I don't get this argument at all. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:24:32 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> Re: Kobal Whistling in the Dark wrote: > >>But if the angel is thinking, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: >>the whole earth is full of his glory," she is in deep trouble. The angel's >>Need is "serve the will of the God of Israel" and smiting her is simply >>instrumental to that end. She can't get the hook for that, any more than >>she could get a geas by giving someone who wants to write the Great >>American Novel a typewriter. >> > >Malakim, definitionally, Shall Not Suffer Evil To Live. K.K. is many >things. One of those is evil. [...] Malakim will have a Need to take her >down, almost by definition. Er, no. Malakim have taken an *oath* not to suffer evil to live; this is not necessarily the same thing as a need. The Need might very well be something like "render glory unto Him, forever and ever" and scouring evil from reality is just a way of giving praising God. >>I would certainly let a Kanah-clone in as a PC in my game, though I would >>warn the player that it would suck hugely to be her. Kobal is the giggling >>pyscho who started off pulling the wings off flies, then birds, then angels. >>And she exists more or less completely on his sufference. (And she can >>/never/ turn her back on the Calabim around her; all it takes is for one >>to get mildly annoyed and she needs a new vessel, because it's nigh- >>impossible for her to resist their resonance.) > >Man, that's not at *all* how I play Kobal. Kobal to me is the one who >takes the time to install the upside-down font on your computer, then set >it so when you boot your system up, all your menus and desktop items have >upside down names. Kobal is the one who suggested "The Committee to >Re-Elect the President" to Nixon's staff, so that his campaign was run by >CREEP. Dave Berry and Dilbert further his word, and we all love it. There >are a lot of *good* things* about his Word and what it does, but it also >hurts people, subjects them to ridicule, makes them look stupid and >undermines their faith in themselves. My Kobal is the laughter of oblivion; he finds history the funniest joke of all. An example: If you read reports about how many American communists moved to the Soviet Union in the 1920s and 30s, you'll find that many of them literally worked themselves to death out of love for the socialist ideal. It's /amazing/: these people cared so much for their ideal that it breaks the heart to read their letters, and realize how the evil and monstrous regime they served was debasing their ideals and abusing their loyalty. (Typically they were treated okay until they ran out of hard currency, and then they were treated like ordinary Russians -- ie, abysmally -- until they were too sick to do manual labor, at which point they were starved to death.) That's what a Kobalic joke was like, imc. I have an expanded description of him on my webpage -- see: http://www.sff.net/people/neelk/in_nomine/setting/kobal.html - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:18:44 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: KK >> I agree, completely -- if we're assuming she's told him what her plans are >> (which I don't recall if she did or not). If all he knows is she's >> planning *something,* and building up a large cast of the most staid for >> it, I'm willing to bet he's willing to wait and see what she's got. (And >> if it isn't funny, he'll tear her to bits in an ironic and amusing way.) > >It doesn't really matter if she's told Kobal or not. Kanah is bound to >Kobal, so she's bound to his dissonance condition, which is: be Funny >every day or suck dissonance. I can't imagine that she can go and get a >geas and die every single day and this is still considered as Funny as the >first time... > >... and as a GM, she'd start getting dissonance from me the second time >she pulled that if she wasn't doing something Funny the second day as >well to supplement it. And the third, and the fourth. Pretty soon she'd >become DiscordGirl. Because Dark Humor has to satisfy their GM as well, >which might be more difficult then satisfying Kobal. > Oh *utterly* agreed. This doesn't begin to relieve her of her duties to continue to be Funny in the rest of her life. And sometimes the GM can be jaded . >Yes, and how much of this humor is dated? How many times has Kobal seen >Pirates of Pensance in the theaters of Shal-Mari? How many movie >adaptations? Yes, every new generation of human beings which comes along >goes, "Oh, cool!" But a generation of human beings lasts 20 years. Kobal >has been around far longer then that, and you can be rest assured that >he's seen it on Broadway. When it was new, it was great and hilarious and >he _approved_. But it's been a century... and it's been _done_. To death. >Sometimes, literally. Ah, but with every new generation, the Word of Dark Humor gets strength. Besides, timing is everything -- Kobal might have no stomach to sit through the Makado on Earth at this point, but to see Malakim (talentless Malakim, no less) trying desperately to perform in front of all their Superiors and having a Civil Servant who's never been to sea show up and start telling all the sailors that their Captain has to be nice to them and they shouldn't do what he says would be *rich.* Six of one, half a dozen of the other. In your game, the joke would fall flat, Kobal would snicker at best and then flay her. In mine she'd get a Knighthood. > >> And, what is more important, it makes a *point.* I think Kobal would love >> the joke. And reward the perpetuator. And not recycle her. > >What, you don't think he'd recycle someone who pulled a Funny that has >topped his current project? > Depends on his mood. Most often, no -- because he can claim it was his own idea and besides, it plays well in Shal-Mari's more exclusive clubs. Again, we've gotten into purely subjective differences. >Three days is three points of dissonance. She doesn't have that long to >bask. She has to move on instantly... and if she tries to start over >with the same schtick, well, the joke has already been done, now hasn't >it? > >Kobal sighs. "It's been done, my dear. It was all over HNN last night. >Now it's rather trite. And so, my dear, are you." > Well, agreed. Though her basking for three days wouldn't mean she wasn't Funny in other ways. (You don't have to do the Seraphim Council on a daily basis, after all). Anyway -- we may have talked this one to death. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:50:26 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling: Is this off topic? - -----Original Message----- From: Ramesh Satkurunath To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 11 March 1999 16:53 Subject: Re: IN> Demon of Fiddling: Is this off topic? D'oh!! I Thought I sent this to Mark not the list. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:35:49 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Rise of the Lilim Martin Arnold wrote on 11 March 1999 >Here's what I was trying to say in a nutshell: > > A Lilim is selfish because a) she is a demon and that's God's Law >(apparently), I don't think Demons can be concidered evil solely because they are demons, I think you should judge them by the same methods you would any other person. (But of course usually they would be judged as evil) >but more importantly, because b) she will only offer to >help you if she can get a Geas out of it, I agree that Darks act like that, but Brights act radically different. Initially they tend to be sickeningly *nice*, they are nicknamed Gifters because they go around fulfilling needs because they like fulfilling needs for the sake of fulfilling needs not for the sake of getting a hook on someone. >without even telling you what >the price is. There is no contract with a Lilim in those terms because >she makes the rules and kills you for breaking them. Put it this way; if >the Lilim rez only extended as far as seeing another's need, then she >wouldn't be motivated - as a demon - to help people. Correct. *As a demon*, as an angel the story is very different, what motivates gifters is a love of the Symphony. >Maybe this is a >'fault' of the mechanics when faced with the philosophical nature of the >setting. (That's not a criticism btw). In other words it's only what she >can get put of it that drives her to fulfil these needs. Therefore one >could say that Lilim don't truly help people. > >This means that, to my mind, Lilim resonance is selfish, which >contradicts what is written in their writeup in the book, and is why I >don't understand how they can redeem and keep their power. > >With regards to likening Geasa to contracts, there are a few >differences: breaking a contract won't kill your soul! And the legal >institutions surrounding such constructs are MAN made (YMMV). So what if the legal institutions are man made? What difference does it make? >This >follows a similar argument to an earlier comment/debate about Dominic >and the Law (most of which I have conveniently misused or forgotten). >Thus Marc is beyond what humanity has done in the name of his Word. >Besides, even the small print of his contracts are laid out for all to >see, s'not his fault if he's all-seeing and all-knowing compared to some >lowly DP! By "lowly DP" to whom would you be refering, surely you're not describing Lilith as "lowly" >EDG: "> Right. IMC Bright Lilim of Marc were strictly forbidden to >invoke > > geases, because they were one-sided and involuntary. > >One-sided? How?" > >If I may, it's one-sided because it favours the Lilim (and may well harm >the Geasee). No the point of the Lilim Resonance is that the exchange is equal. >"What's the difference? Lilim share that way too, only if you take my >bread and don't give me your cheese, you get hurt for it." > >I think you're sorely missing the point :-) >That isn't sharing! Yes it is! Both parties have shared their bread and cheese, both get a cheese sandwich, it's a fair exchange. >I mean if we were two kids in the playground and you >didn't give me a go on your spacehopper and I hurt you for it…would that >be good or bad? If I *owe* you a go on my space hopper, then you are simply making sure justice is done. >Beth: "Hm. I actually hadn't read it that way. I was reading "selfless" >as, "acting for the greater good" or "for the good of others" or simply, >"giving without asking/wanting something else in return." " > >Thaty was my reading, for the purpose of this debate…that's how it comes >across in the rules. > >Ramesh: "Yeah, just like the way my Mum making me eat is selfish, that >*****! :-)" > >She would be selfish if she was only thinking of herself in the process. >That seems to me to be the Lilim mindset. Again, Brights and Darks are different. >">Actually, you can't walk away from a normal >>contract either. Not legally, at least. Unless >>there are extenuating circumstances. > >Ah, so they must be evil too then! :-)" > >You can walk away from a normal contract because your soul won't >(suddenly) shrivel up and die. The contract will also have everything >written into it - even if it's in the most convoluted legal small print >around - it's still there - and what's mopre it's within the scope of >human experience, while a demon from hell isn't. In fact most people >would probably laugh if a Lilim they hom they entered a contract with >turned round and explained they were hellspawn and could suck men's >souls if they didn't obey! More fool you for not paying attention. But >when you are dealing with a Lilim you expect her, if you are human at >least, to be a human with no special powers to suck you dry! So to >speak! ~l~ If you accept a service from a Lilim she will have her due, simple as that. The reason why the Geas punishes someone who fails to pay is that Lilim (esp. Lilith and Frees) are underdogs, they don't have the Law to back them up they have themselves to rely on and that is all. >"I like the Idea of Brights making you do what is best for you even if >you don't want to do it." > >But how do they know what's best for you? Maybe the ones serving Yves >do, but Lilim resonance doesn't have that specific function does it. Their ability to detect *Needs* possibly, possibly the same way a Mother decides what is good for her child - judgement, possibly advice from Elohim/Mercurians/whatever there are plenty of ways for Lilim to find out what is good for you. Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of Wind "First you must learn Fiddling, then you must forget Fiddling. Must you remember to breath for breathing to occur? No. It is the same with Fiddling" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1146 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.