From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Mar 18 12:38:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01425 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:38:53 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA29525 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:26:31 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:26:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199903181826.MAA29525@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1164 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, March 18 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1164 In this digest: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) Re: IN> Lucifer in the Comics Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) IN> requested IN> my ramblings IN> Bad Fanfic Re: IN> Lucifer in the Comics Re: IN> Lucifer in the Comics Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa IN> How Choirs fall Re: IN> Lilith a Human? Re: IN> Bad Fanfic IN> Locations book... Re: IN> Bad Fanfic IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages Re: IN> We the Lilim demand our rites! Re: IN> Locations book... IN> Remnant self-help? Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) Re: IN> Bad Fanfic Re: IN> Bad Fanfic IN> Demonic Words IN> Grammar thread Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? IN> What is the value? Re: IN> Servitors of Purity Re: IN> We the Lilim demand our rites! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:33:52 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) John Karakash wrote: > For a good example of Seraphic behavior, look in Robert >Heinlein's book, Stranger in a Strange Land. There is a joke about the difference between cosmologists, physicists and mathematicians: A cosmologist, a physicist and a mathematician are on a train trip from England to Scotland. They all are looking out of the window and sees a black sheep on a hill side. The Cosmologist says "Ah, so the sheep in Scotland are black". The Physicist looks at the Cosmologist and says "You can't say that, all you can really say is that 1 sheep on one hillside in Scotland is black". The Mathematican says "No, all you can really say is that there is at least one side of one sheep on one hillside in Scotland is that is black." :-) Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:25:07 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Ah . . . okay this one's a bit complex I'll explain privately after > checking up on a few things (particle physics isn't my stongest point > :-) ). Oh, particle physics. You could ask the same thing about a speeding car, I'm afraid, or really anything that's moving, and a good Seraph would respond, "At the time at which you asked the question, I observed the car at such-and-such a place." A particularly canny Seraph might come back with, "Last I saw it, the car was on Route 40." > Yes. I misspelled, I was a bit tired. Sorry. :-). > Truth (capital T) to me is "true in all possible universes" as they say > (but sometimes I use it to mean the ideal of truth), truth is simply a > "factual truth". And Seraphim resonate to Truth, and try their best to speak Truth, and shy away from personal truth, which is the domain of the Balseraphs. "What's the weather like?" "If I interpret your question correctly, it is sunny in the general vicinity of this building, although there are some clouds which can be seen, also in the general vicinity of this building." "How hot is it?" "It is about five hundred and ten degrees by the Kelvin scale, if your thermometer is accurate and I am reading it properly." (Seraphim always use Kelvin. Just as they judge lies from their relation to Absolute Truth, so they judge heat from its relation to Absolute Zero. ;) > Yes. But there are times when this is implicit in what you say: If Micheal > is explaining his World-view to you he is speaking truth but I don't think > he would say "I believe that The world is a war, raging across reality", it > kinda loses some of it's poetic value, sure when speaking the angelic > tongue it will be obvious that this is his world-view and not neccessarily > the Truth (all universes truth), but due to the nature of the corporeal > tongue I think Micheal being a pragmatist would favour the more poetic > description in a corporeal tongue. Can you imagine Micheal giving a > stirring battle speech when every statement was prefixed with "I > believe..." or someother description of uncertainty. And I say again Truth > (as in the ideal of truth, not truths that are true in all possible > universes) goes beyond mere statements. Yes, I can, actually. "Soldiers, this is what I believe. I believe that we are right. I believe that we are more powerful than our opponents. I believe that we have the power of God on our side. And I believe that, figuratively speaking, we can go out there and kick some demon ass!" *wild cheers* However, the world _is_ a war. Every one of the Archangels will tell you that - even Novalis, albeit grudgingly. - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:23:27 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer in the Comics On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Interesting... Lucifer hasn't shown up in my IN projects yet, but I > see him as more amused than anything else. Perhaps once he wanted to > win the war, but now he's more interested in seeing if the Princes > can manage it. When he grants words, it's more out of a sense of > Infernal Ennui and the opportunity for entertainment (or to keep his > Princes interested in the contest....) Now that you put words to it that's how I've seen him too. He's just not very interested in which way the War goes as long as it's a good show. He has a part to play, and he'll play it with gusto, but it's just that - a part. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:33:16 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, EDG wrote: > Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > > "What's the weather like?" > "If I interpret your question correctly, it is sunny in the general > vicinity of this building, although there are some clouds which can be > seen, also in the general vicinity of this building." With a strict interpretation that would give dissonance, since the clouds aren't in the vicinity of the building, but rather high up in the atmosphere. ;) > "How hot is it?" > "It is about five hundred and ten degrees by the Kelvin scale, if your > thermometer is accurate and I am reading it properly." Hum. I hope the Seraph isn't talking to a human here... :) BTW, I'm not sure this is the correct way to give temperatures in Kelvin. IIRC, it's not degrees, it's just Kelvin. > (Seraphim always use Kelvin. Just as they judge lies from their > relation to Absolute Truth, so they judge heat from its relation to > Absolute Zero. ;) *chuckle* Nah, I don't think so. As long as the scale used is given it's not necessary, and the Seraph wouldn't want to be misunderstood by someone who doesn't know the Kelvin scale, would he? :) > > Can you imagine Micheal giving a > > stirring battle speech when every statement was prefixed with "I > > believe..." or someother description of uncertainty. > > Yes, I can, actually. > > "Soldiers, this is what I believe. I believe that we are right. I > believe that we are more powerful than our opponents. I believe that we > have the power of God on our side. And I believe that, figuratively > speaking, we can go out there and kick some demon ass!" *wild cheers* *laugh* I'm not sure he'd have to add the "figuratively speaking". They - -could- go out there and kick some demon ass, literally. :) > However, the world _is_ a war. Every one of the Archangels will tell > you that - even Novalis, albeit grudgingly. I don't think so. The world is -at- war, but I don't think you'd get Novalis to admit that the world -is- war. There's a huge difference there. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 05:02:49 EST From: TButlerjr@aol.com Subject: IN> requested INTERNATIONAL DRIVER'S LICENSE Need a new driver's license? Too many points or other trouble? Want a license that can never be suspended or revoked? Want ID for nightclubs or hotel check-in? Avoid tickets, fines, and mandatory driver's education. Protect your privacy, and hide your identity. The United Nations gave you the privilege to drive freely throughout the world! (Convention on International Road Traffic of September 19, 1949 & World Court Decision, The Hague, Netherlands, January 21, 1958) Take advantage of your rights. Order a valid International Driver's License that can never be suspended or revoked. Confidentiality assured. CALL NOW!!! 1-937-586-9313 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:04:32 EST From: Endlsskid@aol.com Subject: IN> my ramblings Well I sent this out the other day but im not sure if it went through or not..usually im used to some sort of reaction to incoming mail and well...I didnt see any..so here i go again :) endlsskid ????? Of Laughter :) Hello its me ....endlsskid....well soon I will be temporarlily removed from the cyberworld. Finding my independence...well that's a tale for another time. So im switching to digest. My visits fewer and farther between....but before I go ....let me begin with ... Dark Victory.....excellent piece of work! Two thunbs..err...wings up. Inspired by a friend of mine , I bring forth Mattias, Angel of Redemption. Formerly in service to Dominic. This Malakite has Cherub, Elohite, Mercurian and Seraph choir attunmnets. Each awarded by both the now fallen Dominic and the deceased Laurence. Wondering the heavens searching for Dominic as the apocalypse came to an end, he stumbles upon the field of battle to find a deceased Michael and a lifeless Laurence nearby. He weeps for his fallen superior...his heroes. He sings a song of mourning for all his slayed brethren. He stands over the archangel of the Sword. And in his hand , lay his mighty sword , an artifact of great power. And as he grasps Laurence's hand and sword to put them in honor over his chest....the sword is placed in Mattias' hands by the dead Laurence. Mattias takes up the sword and restarts his search for his Superior. Eventually word gets to him that Dominic has become a demon prince. Mattias has no chose he must descend to hell and do his job. He must help to redemn Dom. Alrite thats all fro now im tired and well I' ll finsih this tale later. But I hope you enjoy the sample. More to come. endlsskid ??? of ????? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:25:38 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Bad Fanfic So sitting in my inbox is a piece of excruciatingly bad IN Fanfic I wrote - - as all fanfic is, by basic definition. I'd like to get it out of my inbox, as it has been sitting there since January and I have other more exciting things to clutter it up with right now. At 10K, it's not real big as fic goes. And it's Nybbasean. Is there any interest in sharing - ie posting it? - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:54:52 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer in the Comics Elizabeth Bartley > >On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > >> In which comics is ( are? Sounds bad either way.) he nice? > >My GM is basing Lucifer heavily on that. And, in fact, Lucifer is busy >with a plot on how to go Renegade. Leaving Hell weak enough not to take >vengeance once he's weakened by no longer being Lord of Hell and >simultaneously strong enough not to prompt instant Armageddon is >difficult. Then there's the little issue that he needs the intervention >of the Holy Grail in order to *stop* being the Lord of Hell.... That sounds exactly like Michael Moorcock's _The War Hound and the World's Pain_. In that book, Lucifer has decided that he's sick of getting beaten both ethically and physically by God, and wants to give up the fight. He takes the least-scummy of all the living men currently bound for Hell (von Bek, a captain of one of the mercenary companies ravaging Germany during the 30 Years' War), and orders him to find the Holy Grail. (Von Bek is not even slightly pure of spirit, but hey, he's the best Satan's got.) However, the other lords of Hell are not at all happy with the idea that they wiil have to be responsible for their own conduct and are trying to stop it. Even in Hell, awful as it is, change is a frightening thing... It's a really really good book, definitely worth reading. (Also go read Moorcock's _Behold the Man_. The ending is predictable but the trip there is a lot of fun.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:54:52 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer in the Comics Elizabeth Bartley > >On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > >> In which comics is ( are? Sounds bad either way.) he nice? > >My GM is basing Lucifer heavily on that. And, in fact, Lucifer is busy >with a plot on how to go Renegade. Leaving Hell weak enough not to take >vengeance once he's weakened by no longer being Lord of Hell and >simultaneously strong enough not to prompt instant Armageddon is >difficult. Then there's the little issue that he needs the intervention >of the Holy Grail in order to *stop* being the Lord of Hell.... That sounds exactly like Michael Moorcock's _The War Hound and the World's Pain_. In that book, Lucifer has decided that he's sick of getting beaten both ethically and physically by God, and wants to give up the fight. He takes the least-scummy of all the living men currently bound for Hell (von Bek, a captain of one of the mercenary companies ravaging Germany during the 30 Years' War), and orders him to find the Holy Grail. (Von Bek is not even slightly pure of spirit, but hey, he's the best Satan's got.) However, the other lords of Hell are not at all happy with the idea that they wiil have to be responsible for their own conduct and are trying to stop it. Even in Hell, awful as it is, change is a frightening thing... It's a really really good book, definitely worth reading. (Also go read Moorcock's _Behold the Man_. The ending is predictable but the trip there is a lot of fun.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:27:56 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Bright Lilim Geasa On Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 11:26:52AM -0500, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > You are mistaken. (Sorry 'bout that.) Geasa is the plural used in Shadowrun > for the singular Geas based on Welsh/southern Celtic grammar, if I recall > correctly - It also would work in Cornish. Based on English grammar, the > singular is Geas, the plural is Geases. After thrashing about for a while, I > believe that the Gaelic/northern Celtic grammar result we came up with was > Geasanna for the plural of Geas, thanks, again if I recall correctly, to Kevin > Walsh. > That was me, all right, though I don't recall where I got it from (GURPS Celtic Myth?). When I looked up De Bhaldraithe's dictionary, I found out that the term geas is itself a plural form in Irish. It's complicated somewhat by the fact that usage of the word in In Nomine is pretty far from its usage in celtic mythology. A geas-hook is a meaningless phrase in Irish. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:37:12 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> How Choirs fall Hi, The recent thread about defection tendencies, among with other things going on in my campaign, made me think: how is it exactly that angels fall? I reckon most angels start tripping when, for the best intentions in the world, they emulate their counterparts' resonance. For some Choirs it's easy: * Seraphim: even though they're telling some human the Truth, the human doesn't believe them. And it's vitally important that they do. At this point, it becomes necessary for the human to *know* the Truth, to be *told*. * Cherubim: they get tangled up in a messy web of contradictory alliegances, or in general fail to protect someone/something badly, until the only thing they can do is give up in despair. * Ofanim: there comes a time when, no matter how fast or agile you are, you have to get somewhere *fast*, and the only way is *through*... * Elohim: stuck in a situation where people are behaving irrationally, emotions are at an all-time high, the whole thing is getting messy *fast*, there are three choices: 1) stay aloof, 2) give in and join in the mayhem, or 3) *make* people calm down. As for Kyrios and Mercurians, though, I'm not as certain. I could see Kyrios falling as a result of laziness - rather than caring for their host, making sure they move around regularly, they stay in the one body and treat it as theirs'. I imagine Kyrios of Jean might be most prone to this, given the sheer effort involved in staying in any place at all regularly (the KoJ in my campaign regularly stays in one of the other PCs' cellphone, which means every three minutes or thereabouts it has to flit from the cellphone to the PC's trousers (for instance), then back, which must be tiring after a while). But this interpretation is still sketchy, and I'm not all that happy with it. I can't see how Mercurians fall, either, other than starting to despise humans - which can pretty much be a reason for *any* angel to fall. Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:38:10 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a Human? On Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 07:18:25PM +0000, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >Call me crazy if you will, but I assume that being Bound to a Demonic Word > >is altering your soul in a Hellish manner. It should, IMO, be harder to > >fix her soul than it would be to fix the soul of a random Free Lilim > >(assuming equal will and desire to Redeem), because the Hellish imprint is > >so much greater. > > Surely what makes a Word Demonic is the fact that the Wordbound is a demon, > unless it is *evil*, which Freedom isn't. > No. A Demonic Word is one bestowed by Lucifer or another demon (and in all fairness, most of the Words held by Princes aren't intrinsically evil, Fate and Gluttony are all I can think of). An angelic Word is one bestowed by God or the Seraphim Council. It's impossible for an angel to be attuned to a demonic word or vice versa, but humans can go either way. But in order for her to redeem, she would have to lose her Word. All IMO of course. (Not that I'm attempting to scare Lilith away from Heaven. Not at all.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "I have said that the Elohim are perilous. I have not said that they desire hurt to any life, or to the Earth. But in their own tales they are portrayed as the bastion of the last truth, and that truth they preserve in ways which baffle all that behold them." The One Tree, by Stephen Donaldson. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:43:08 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Bad Fanfic >So sitting in my inbox is a piece of excruciatingly bad IN Fanfic I wrote >- as all fanfic is, by basic definition. I'd like to get it out of my >inbox, as it has been sitting there since January and I have other more >exciting things to clutter it up with right now. > >At 10K, it's not real big as fic goes. And it's Nybbasean. Is there any >interest in sharing - ie posting it? > >- Em Gofer! I'd like to see it, for one. - -- Eric Alfred Burns | | non in-nomine mail to sabre@annotations.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:51:00 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Locations book... >>>Is this the proper forum for comments or discussion about the Book of Locations? If not, where would be the proper forum? :) Thanks.<<< (I have this horrible, Habbalish temptation to direct him to post all his comments in alt.misc.clueless.newbies.rtfm, but I suspect the imminent wrath of the Demon Princess of Protecting SJG Copyrights will suffice...) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:49:32 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Bad Fanfic I'd like to see it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:05:30 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages I'm also enjoying the linguistics debate, but trying not to get too involved in it. (Don't have the time. ) My simple assessment is: you've both made some good points and some errors. You are both confusing descriptive grammer with prescriptive grammar. The former is the rules that linguists compile by observing how speakers use a language. The latter is what Catholic nuns try to beat into Catholic schoolchildren with rulers... In an abstract sense, there is no such thing as "correct" grammar. If I say something, and you comprehend my meaning, my communication was successful, and therefore whether or not I broke any recognized rules of grammar is irrelevant. In a practical sense, grammatical consistency (enforced by uniform standards which are changed as needed, but slowly, to recognize linguistic change over time) serves the purpose of slowing language drift (the inevitable process by which different dialects eventually become mutually unintelligible separate languages) and makes successful communication far more likely. >>>If that were true, then no one outside of a hundred mile radius of his birthplace could possibly communicate. There are *not* two hundred and ninty different ways to grammatically work in American English. There is one.<<< That's not correct. It's not even correct professionally; different styleguides sometimes differ on grammatical points (albeit usually over very subtle points). But it's why the MLA styleguide is different from the APA styleguide, which is different from the UPI styleguide. Some grammatical rules are ambiguous, and there is no Department of American English Grammar to dictate the "correct" grammar to all users of American English. >>> There are a few hundred dialects of spoken English, most of which only vary in a few stylistic ways.<<< More than that. Look up the term "idiolect." Anders was correct that every human being has his own "dialect," although it's true that between two people from the same area speaking the same language, their idiolects are likely to be so similar as to be indistinguishable. >>> A Seraphim, wanting to be certain his points would be accurate, would learn to speak the language *precisely* and *accurately.*<<< Yes, but that doesn't mean two Seraphim will necessarily agree on the same grammatical point. ;) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:23:35 -0500 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> We the Lilim demand our rites! At 23:17 -0500 3/17/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: > >> Of course, the GM has to decide whether some Prince is going to let a >> Lilim get away with an indefinite (minor) drain on his personal power, >> for a finite period of service... > >Understood, but also bear in mind that each performance of that rite >strengthens that Superior's Word. But only indirectly. And there's no guarantee that the Essence isn't being used to *oppose* that Superior's Word, since the Lilim may quite easily be working for one of his enemies. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:27:04 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Locations book... > (I have this horrible, Habbalish temptation to direct him to post all his > comments in alt.misc.clueless.newbies.rtfm, but I suspect the imminent > wrath of the Demon Princess of Protecting SJG Copyrights will suffice...) Woah. Something that has actually made my pretty bleak week look a little better. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 07:37:23 PST From: "Daniel Sublett" Subject: IN> Remnant self-help? Can a remnant PC restore its own Celestial Forces through the use of earned character pts. (pg.202)? Or do the points spent on Perception and Will not turn into Celestial Force? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:32:25 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages In a message dated 3/18/99 7:09:08 AM, AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: >Some grammatical rules are ambiguous, and there is no Department of American >English Grammar to dictate the "correct" grammar to all users of American >English. In France, however, you have an organization something like this: The Institute for the French Language (I think that's the correct translation, I'm not too good at French...). They're the people who come up with new official French words to combat the Anglisation of French. For example, Laser, Radar, and radio are three of the words they 'officially' disapprove of. They also determine correct French grammar and publish the official dictionary and encyclopedia, again If I recall correctly. *sigh* Dead thread. Right. Sorry. Mark (If you want to talk about this further, I've managed to forget who was involved: E-mail me privately ... or at least cc me.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:41:40 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) In a message dated 3/18/99 12:56:51 AM, anders@strindberg.ling.uu.se writes: >> "How hot is it?" >> "It is about five hundred and ten degrees by the Kelvin scale, if your >> thermometer is accurate and I am reading it properly." > >Hum. I hope the Seraph isn't talking to a human here... :) > >BTW, I'm not sure this is the correct way to give temperatures in Kelvin. >IIRC, it's not degrees, it's just Kelvin. As a chemist, I can tell you that it varies all over the map. 510K is the proper notation, but can be spoken either "five hundred ten Kelvin" or "five hundred ten degrees Kelvin." Although I would think that a Seraph would be more likely to say, "This thermometer gives me a reading of two hundred thirty-eight degrees Celsius." Note also that this has to be an oven temperature... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 99 10:51:02 CDT From: redneck@detnet.com (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Bad Fanfic > >So sitting in my inbox is a piece of excruciatingly bad IN Fanfic I wrote >- as all fanfic is, by basic definition. I'd like to get it out of my >inbox, as it has been sitting there since January and I have other more >exciting things to clutter it up with right now. > Do or don't, but don't equivicate. As for myself, if it's -really- that bad, life's too short to read bad fanfics. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet's email has changed... http://www.detnet.com/redneck/ - Redneck Gaijin Online http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/ - White Lightning Productions http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/dvpbem/ - In Nomine: Dark Victory PBEM http://www.wren-spot.com/wlp/milkmaid.html - The Magnificent Milkmaid ... respond to redneck@detnet.com please ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:15:50 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Bad Fanfic > As for myself, if it's -really- that bad, life's too short to read bad > fanfics. }:-{D All fanfic is bad. That's its job -- to be bad. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:40:34 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> Demonic Words Kevin Walsh wrote on 18 March 1999 >(and in >all fairness, most of the Words held by Princes aren't intrinsically >evil, Fate and Gluttony are all I can think of). Add Cruelty to that list. (I *HATE* that Word) Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:58:48 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> Grammar thread Hi guys, I'd like to continue commenting on this thread and I think there are other people out there who want to continue talking on this subject, so since 'Beth would like it off-list sould anyone who's interested in the thread (I'm assuming Anders and Eric, Oh and Mark [sorry!]) mail me at: Ramesh.sat@telinco.co.uk Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:40:24 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphs, Truth and the Nature of Languages (Long) EDG wrote on 18 March 1999 07:29 >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> Ah . . . okay this one's a bit complex I'll explain privately after >> checking up on a few things (particle physics isn't my stongest point >> :-) ). > >Oh, particle physics. You could ask the same thing about a speeding >car, I'm afraid, or really anything that's moving, and a good Seraph >would respond, "At the time at which you asked the question, I observed >the car at such-and-such a place." Yes, and that may be true to that Seraph, but 2 different people can observe a particle in different positions at 2 the same time, because the particle to each of them the particle *is* in different places to each observer. Or at least that's what some sources, have lead me to believe maybe my teachers are Balseraphs :-) >A particularly canny Seraph might come back with, "Last I saw it, the >car was on Route 40." That desciption is vague enough to be true for many possible observers, but I'm talking about far more exact descriptions. >> Yes. I misspelled, I was a bit tired. Sorry. :-). >> Truth (capital T) to me is "true in all possible universes" as they say >> (but sometimes I use it to mean the ideal of truth), truth is simply a >> "factual truth". > >And Seraphim resonate to Truth, and try their best to speak Truth, and >shy away from personal truth, which is the domain of the Balseraphs. > >"What's the weather like?" >"If I interpret your question correctly, it is sunny in the general >vicinity of this building, although there are some clouds which can be >seen, also in the general vicinity of this building." > >"How hot is it?" >"It is about five hundred and ten degrees by the Kelvin scale, if your >thermometer is accurate and I am reading it properly." How hot is it where? (I hope not in the room you are in, that's 237ºC!!!!!). IIRC Temperature is a statistical measure so a region of space needs to be specified. >(Seraphim always use Kelvin. Just as they judge lies from their >relation to Absolute Truth, so they judge heat from its relation to >Absolute Zero. ;) (If there was any degree of seriousness in that comment). 1 IIRC (and my sources are to be trusted) Absolute zero does not exist, and a particle can't have so little energy it has no temperature it just isn't possible. 2 Any empirical scale is as valid as any other, since the same fact is being state regardless of the scale being used - (It's like saying French is a better language for stating the temperature than English). 3 Some questions have no Abolute answers and can only be answered in respect to a particular person, (haven't had time to check the particle physics up yet) >> Yes. But there are times when this is implicit in what you say: If Micheal >> is explaining his World-view to you he is speaking truth but I don't think >> he would say "I believe that The world is a war, raging across reality", it >> kinda loses some of it's poetic value, sure when speaking the angelic >> tongue it will be obvious that this is his world-view and not neccessarily >> the Truth (all universes truth), but due to the nature of the corporeal >> tongue I think Micheal being a pragmatist would favour the more poetic >> description in a corporeal tongue. Can you imagine Micheal giving a >> stirring battle speech when every statement was prefixed with "I >> believe..." or someother description of uncertainty. And I say again Truth >> (as in the ideal of truth, not truths that are true in all possible >> universes) goes beyond mere statements. > >Yes, I can, actually. > >"Soldiers, this is what I believe. I believe that we are right. I >believe that we are more powerful than our opponents. I believe that we >have the power of God on our side. And I believe that, figuratively >speaking, we can go out there and kick some demon ass!" *wild cheers* He sounds a little unsure of himself, maybe we aren't more powerful than our opponents. Micheal *knows* he is Right. He is Right and he prooves this in every battle. He is Right and so he wins and he will continue to win because he is Right. >However, the world _is_ a war. Every one of the Archangels will tell >you that - even Novalis, albeit grudgingly. No "The World is a whirlwind. It sweeps across bodies and hearts, bending the soft things and destroying the rest.", "the world is a war" who'd come up with a stupid idea like that? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:17:58 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Why on earth can't Malakim fall? Seems to me that Heaven has an unbelievable advantage with incorruptible (or so it seems) warriors. Why don't they just make all earthbound angels Malakim. Train them up properly (i.e. so they don't screw everything up by behaving like Malakim) and Bob's your uncle. In fact why hasn't Jean tinkered with breeding out the 'dissonance' gene within angels as a whole. Maybe he has secret experiments aimed at perfecting angels so the rest of the choirs are inFallible. Perhaps his experiments require Malakite 'essence'. Celestial Eugenics. Maybe Vapula has similar plans to build the perfect demon. Martin Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:18:43 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> What is the value? What is the value of a book of locations? Does it contain tethers, and other 'supernatural' locations, or is it a collection of everyone's favourite haunts from their own games. I personally can't see the value in what would seem to be an in-game tourist guide. The same goes for the Liber Servants; this seems like everybody's favourite characters from their own game. What is the point? Any GM wroth his or her salt can come up with PC's of their own. If you want inspiration buy a novel or watch a film! Read The Greatest Story Ever Told, if you like! If you absolutely cannot come up with ideas for your IN game, then maybe IN isn't the game for you (at least for the moment perhaps :-) ). I thought the hobby had long since moved away from such books. As a roleplayer I would encourage people to look to their own ideas and be independent; use your own ideas - feed your own creativity. This is why I don't like canon. If these books are designed to be merely inspirational then perhaps they would be better served as articles for magazines/web lists or whatever (maybe Pyramid!), rather than actual books. Doubtless these books will have lots of yummy ideas from lost of yummy writers (most of whom are here I imagine), but one should strive to come up with one's own ideas. At least I think! If books like these are necessary perhaps it would be better to have them all in one source as a GM Companion or something, including NPC's, places, relics, etc. it's still dreadfully cheesy though. It just sounds like people are running out of ideas for supplements when they resort to this. I just don't see the value! Martin's tuppence worth Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:20:35 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Servitors of Purity Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > According to different materials -- absolutely none of the Tsayadim have > ever Fallen. However, does this extend to other Servitors of Purity -- > or are the Tsayadim specifically those Servitors who refused to align > themselves with another Archangel (remaining Pure), and other Servitors, > having moved on, might then Fall? > > In other words, are any of the (non-Malakim) former Servitors of Uriel > currently in Hell? Who says you have to have Fallen to be in Hell? IMC Lucifer has a captured Seraph of Uriel he uses for interrogation purposes; despite all that the Seraph is exposed to, it can never Fall - and remains useful as a tool (as opposed to being just another Balseraph). Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:25:23 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> We the Lilim demand our rites! At 11:17 PM -0500 3/17/99, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 3/17/99 10:00:00 AM Central Standard Time, >emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: > >> Of course, the GM has to decide whether some Prince is going to let a >> Lilim get away with an indefinite (minor) drain on his personal power, >> for a finite period of service... > >Understood, but also bear in mind that each performance of that rite >strengthens that Superior's Word. Ah, yes, that bit. The concept that I've got for Rites is that they generate "diffuse Essence." The diffuse Essence drifts around in the Symphony until it collects in a Tether to the Word that it's most associated with (e.g., the Rite that created it, usually). This Tether acts as both a distilling point and a wick, funneling the precipitated Essence up to the Superior who owns the Tether, so eventually the Superior gets back at least as much Essence as he put in. *EVENTUALLY*. This process takes hours to days to centuries as the GM wills, and in the meantime, he's out one Essence. In the mean time, a Prince is out 1 Essence and if everybody drained him of 1 Essence all at once, he might get seriously low. Mind, Princes and Archangels don't *TELL* their Servitors this! And they certainly don't tell them how *much* they've got in their stash. So, you see, the trick is to get a Geas on all of a Prince's Servitors and then set it up so that they're all doing one of his Rites at the same time, and then you hit him while he's low on Essence. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1164 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.