From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Mar 28 12:26:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25090 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:26:42 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id MAA16692 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:30:35 -0600 Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:30:35 -0600 Message-Id: <199903281830.MAA16692@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1182 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, March 28 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1182 In this digest: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1181 Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas (Nitpick) Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) (going fluffy) Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) IN> Jordi and Humanity IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) (going fluffy) Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) (going fluffy) Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas IN> Prophecy and Gabriel Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) (going fluffy) Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) (going fluffy) Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction IN> Lilim and love ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:25:40 -0800 From: "Carol E. Adair" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1181 Hi.. Please remove my address from this list. Thanks, Carol ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 18:12:02 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas (Nitpick) Ben Aldred wrote on 27 March 1999 > >>For In historical, how about In Rome? lots of scope for corruption for >>Demons, and the spread of christianity. Only problem would be that you'd >>have to rewrite Gabriel as sane (well, as sane as any archangel) >> >well that is almost a given. Any historical period has a change in the >status of Archangels and Demon princes. Go back far enough Uriel is still >kicking and Haagenti and Nybbas are still just demons. Laurence is still >an angel of Michael(I think) Of Uriel not Micheal >and politics are much different. Jordi >doesn't hate Humanity That's going pretty far back. >and so forth. But basically I agree with you >Ben Elohite of Stone Ramesh aka Angel of Fiddling, Seraph of the Wind "Balseraph of Theft you say, why the very idea is absurd! I *am* a Seraph of the Wind. No, really!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:02:42 -0500 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) >I just thought of something... -If- the Aesir accepted Uriel's crusade as >a war, there would hardly be any question of weregild or bloodfeud, would >there? Um... that's what I was trying to say. Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:04:32 -0500 From: "James M. Zoshak" Subject: Re: IN> Oaths, Bright Lilim & Judgement. > I don't see -how-. Dominic doesn't make a big deal about -how- you do >your job, as long as you -do- it. I see your point, now. I have to say that I agree. Azrael, Malakite of Death. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:01:19 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas At 5:19 AM -0500 3/26/99, Ben Aldred wrote: >>For In historical, how about In Rome? lots of scope for corruption for >>Demons, and the spread of christianity. Only problem would be that you'd >>have to rewrite Gabriel as sane (well, as sane as any archangel) >> > well that is almost a given. Any historical period has a change in the > status of Archangels and Demon princes. Go back far enough Uriel is still > kicking and Haagenti and Nybbas are still just demons. Laurence is still > an angel of Michael(I think) and politics are much different. Jordi > doesn't hate Humanity and so forth. > Ben Elohite of Stone Laurence was a Servitor of Uriel's before he stepped up to the plate. I'm actually working on a bit of fiction/adventure seeds that feature the Pre-Uriel's Leaving Laurence right now. - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:14:14 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) (going fluffy) Steel Angel wrote: > And let's never forget -Baldur-. -That- was purely nasty, and his other > two kids weren't exactly the most pleasant of beings either, although > Hel -did- serve a purpose, Iormungander (don't ask me to spell this with > the English alphabet, we're lacking a letter, okay, we're lacking a few) > was just there to prophetically kill Thor. (The way it's generally spelled in English, btw, is Jormungandr. :) Jormungandr _did_ have a purpose, although it was vague: he surrounded the waters of the earth, iirc, and caused earthquakes and problems at sea. On the other hand, Sleipnir did nothing but benefit Asgard... > Which, according to the Norse tradition and sense of justice, means his > crime was the -worst- that could be committed. Norse weren't really as > big on torture as people think. -Killing- sure, but only when it was > justified. (Note: conquest counts as 'justified' as long as it isn't > wholesale genocide) *nods* I'd love to see an alternate-history scenario where the Norse pantheon became the One True Pantheon, and - taking a cue from JHVH - Odin and company took the effective parts of Archangels (and the giants the Demon Princes, perhaps) and started creating their own brands of angels (aside from Valkyries, of course). - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 14:17:58 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Re: New Material/Fresh Ideas Ben Aldred wrote: > Laurence is still > an angel of Michael(I think) and politics are much different. Jordi > doesn't hate Humanity and so forth. Laurence was an angel of Uriel, iirc.. and Jordi's hated humans since the invention of agriculture, at least IMO. :) - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:09:44 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > I just thought of something... -If- the Aesir accepted Uriel's crusade as > a war, there would hardly be any question of weregild or bloodfeud, would > there? Hr.... Well. Sort of, but unless there had been a peace settlement the Norse can in turn do what they want to the angels. The fact that the war occurred over a thousand years is *not* going to matter to Odin unless it is politically expedient for the time to matter; Odin is patient. When the Norse made war, they took captives as slaves, who typically had the right to earn their own money and could buy their freedom if their masters permitted, but who could be killed if the master wished and if killed by an outsider weregild was paid to the master, not the family. But I don't know if they believed genocide was wrong or just wasteful. And the writeup in _The Marches_ sounded as if Odin managed things well enough that Uriel never had a *chance* to attack Odin's noncombatants. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:16:34 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Jordi and Humanity >>>and politics are much different. Jordi doesn't hate Humanity and so forth.<<< Jordi has been disgusted with humanity since probably about the time agriculture was invented. But he doesn't HATE humanity. That would border on dissonance. (Of course, as has been recently discussed, some people like portraying Jordi as skirting on the edge of a Fall.) I think Jordi gets a bad rap because we see him with human eyes (naturally). I also think he's underutilized. From Jordi's perspective, humans are just another animal species. Not inherently good or bad, but certainly not more valuable than others. He's not impressed by humanity's special trait of faith (animal souls can also go to Heaven, after all, and humanity's ability to create religion is just a trick of evolution -- give chimpanzees or ferrets or pigs another fifty million years, and maybe they'll be praying too). Tethers? So what -- there are Tethers to Animals, Flowers, Stone, Lightning, etc., created by natural forces. Humans create more Tethers because they alter the environment and have more active imaginations and passions. See evolution, above. So humans aren't morally on a higher plane than animals, and not worth sacrificing large parts of the world to keep them around. If one species is destroying scores of other species, that species should be destroyed for the greater good. Jordi doesn't hate humans. If wolves or whales were wiping out the ecosystem, he'd want them destroyed too. Not out of hatred, but out of a desire to preserve the balance of nature. Jordi seems hostile and even malicious to us because he has an utterly non-humanocentric worldview. If you discard the assumption that sapience or religion sets humans apart from other animals in the greater scheme of things, then Jordi's worldview makes perfect sense. His big problem is that he's been _told_ he's wrong. He wanted to wipe out humanity when they first started causing trouble, and he was persuaded otherwise by Michael, who'd had a word with God. So he was forced to accept that humans weren't to be eliminated. But that doesn't mean he has to accept that humans should remain the dominant life form on Earth. He may not work towards engineering the genocide of humanity (though he wouldn't shed any tears if humans wiped themselves out), but he _can_ work towards ending their domination of the planet, by tearing down civilization, taking away all of humanity's destructive tools, and forcing them to fend for themselves in the wild, using only their natural God-given abilities, like other animals. Force them to become a natural part of the ecosystem again, and let them find their proper place in the food chain, and Jordi has no problem with humans. (At this point, there will arise arguments that civilization and advanced tools that put mankind at the top of the food chain _are_ part of their natural God-given endowments. And this is why Jordi's Servitors tend not to get along well with other angels.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:16:43 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas >>Laurence is still an angel of Michael(I think)<<< No, Laurence was a Servitor of Uriel. So was Khalid. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:30:06 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) (going fluffy) On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, EDG wrote: > I'd love to see an alternate-history scenario where the Norse pantheon > became the One True Pantheon, and - taking a cue from JHVH - Odin and > company took the effective parts of Archangels (and the giants the Demon > Princes, perhaps) and started creating their own brands of angels (aside > from Valkyries, of course). Hmmm... The more knowledgable will have to work on it more, but it would be interesting. Would you propose the Aesir conquering Heaven and ruling from there, or would Asgard become greater as Heaven merely dwindled? Also, what would be the status of Hell now? Would it dwindle along with it's counterpart, or would the War now be fought between Asgard and Hell? Richard Gant (I love it, but I don't know enough to do it justice.) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:44:43 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas At 8:16 PM -0500 3/27/99, David Edelstein wrote: >>>Laurence is still an angel of Michael(I think)<<< > > No, Laurence was a Servitor of Uriel. So was Khalid. > > -David Khalid was as well? I missed that. Was Uriel a specific proponent of the Christian Model, or did Purity not require Dogmatic allegiance, but instead merely pure devotion to Heaven and selflessness? - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:48:45 -0500 From: Whistling in the Dark Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) (going fluffy) At 8:30 PM -0400 3/27/99, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, EDG wrote: > >> I'd love to see an alternate-history scenario where the Norse pantheon >> became the One True Pantheon, and - taking a cue from JHVH - Odin and >> company took the effective parts of Archangels (and the giants the Demon >> Princes, perhaps) and started creating their own brands of angels (aside >> from Valkyries, of course). > > Hmmm... > > The more knowledgable will have to work on it more, but it would be > interesting. Would you propose the Aesir conquering Heaven and ruling > from there, or would Asgard become greater as Heaven merely dwindled? > Also, what would be the status of Hell now? Would it dwindle along with > it's counterpart, or would the War now be fought between Asgard and Hell? And if the Asgardians took Heaven, and all that implied, would that mean Odin would be able to give Words? And if the Angels and Devils were both forced into Hell, does that mean that some Words would be lost? - -- Eric Alfred Burns |"It was then I felt my heart break like a sabre@annotations.com | fragile Scooby Snack upon the harsh teeth of http://www.annotations.com | Reality -- and it's been broken ever since." http://www.roundrobin.org | --Johnny Bravo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 20:55:45 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> New Material/Fresh Ideas Whistling in the Dark wrote: > Was Uriel a specific proponent of the Christian Model, or did Purity > not require Dogmatic allegiance, but instead merely pure devotion to > Heaven and selflessness? I'd say the latter. IMO, Christianity in totum is and has always been _way_ too fractious to be supported by Purity. :) - -EDG - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:58:29 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Prophecy and Gabriel I, when in the mindset of my main character, had some interesting thoughts about prophets that I thought I'd share with the list. When someone's described as a prophet one immediately assumes he sees either the _future probable_ or the _future definite_. (Either of these could be modified by the prophecy, in either direction: this is what is likely to happen now that you've seen the prophecy; this is what would certainly have happened if you had not been warned; et cetera.) And if one wonders what type of prophet someone is, one would ordinarily consider only the "future probable" or the "future definite" categories. But there's a third, entirely different, type of prophet: one who sees the _future imperative_. Interesting that this is ignored, when fundamentally this is what the entirety of Fate and Destiny do: see the fate and/or destiny they must encourage/prevent in order to obtain this soul. But one doesn't think of that ability as prophecy, and yet in a sense it is. And that gives me furiously to think. So far as I know, Gabriel always follows her prophecies, she doesn't weigh the benefit of causing or preventing a prophecy with the effort it would take to do so. If she had a vision of a rose on the moon, she wouldn't stop to wonder why, much less think about the obstacles in the way: she sets about bringing that vision to reality. And this is one of the reasons she's considered insane. But - -- does she prophecy the future definite, the future probable, or the future imperative? She's closely allied to Yves, and he *certainly* sees the future imperative. It could be that Gabriel is *supposed* to obey prophecy rather than use it to guide herself. So far as I know, Yves doesn't question that a person's destiny is the proper course for them to follow. And no one expects him to. Probably because the results of someone reaching their destiny are visible and beneficial.... Which means that if you want to know what will happen, you should consult an Ethereal or a human prophet if you can find one. If you have something in mind, you'd do better to talk to someone in Destiny or Fate and hope it relates -- or Gabriel if you catch her in a really good mood. She went on to think about campaign-specific things. Character in question is a pregnant (don't ask unless you want a long answer) Lilim on the fast track to Redemption. She had a prophecy from Odin about her twins which included, 'great rises for each, and one even greater fall.' Odin was *very* clear that he prophecied probabilities only, he was just very good at prophecying probabilities. She had, within the past five years, also had prophetic dealings with Apollo, Yves, Kronos, a human woman with some strange insight, and an ignorant man who saw her looking like an angel. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:47:08 -0600 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) (going fluffy) > > On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, EDG wrote: > > I'd love to see an alternate-history scenario where the Norse pantheon > > became the One True Pantheon, and - taking a cue from JHVH - Odin and > > company took the effective parts of Archangels (and the giants the Demon > > Princes, perhaps) and started creating their own brands of angels (aside > > from Valkyries, of course). > and Richard Gant responded: > Hmmm... > > The more knowledgable will have to work on it more, but it would be > interesting. Would you propose the Aesir conquering Heaven and ruling > from there, or would Asgard become greater as Heaven merely dwindled? > Also, what would be the status of Hell now? Would it dwindle along with > it's counterpart, or would the War now be fought between Asgard and Hell? Probably, Hel & Nifflheim would take over Hell, Hela would dominate the DPs in parallel to what Asgard was doing to Heaven. Corpse-gnawer [Niddhog {sp?}] would love having Saminga as a chew-toy. The prophetic powers of the Well of Mimir would be a great advantage for the Norse Pantheon, especially if they could pay Mimir with Essence instead of eyes. *g* Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milkbone underwear" Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:58:12 -0500 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) (going fluffy) Uncle Wolf wrote: > Probably, Hel & Nifflheim would take over Hell, Hela would dominate the DPs > in parallel to what Asgard was doing to Heaven. Corpse-gnawer [Niddhog > {sp?}] would love having Saminga as a chew-toy. The prophetic powers of the > Well of Mimir would be a great advantage for the Norse Pantheon, especially > if they could pay Mimir with Essence instead of eyes. *g* Oo! Oo oo oo! Could it be that Odin, perhaps, knows the secret of turning vessels (and parts of vessels) back into Essence - so that he really did pay Mimir with an eye, by converting it to Essence first? I think it is Niddhog, btw, although I've always seen "Niflheim". :) - -EDG who is liking this idea, and may write it up later tonight - -- EDG, Mercurian of Jean, Angel of Information Dissemination anthoch@earlham.edu "Don't you think that The Netherlands sounds like the sort of country that should be ruled by a Dark Lord?" - {Moogle} ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:17:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Odin's Court (An Idea...) On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: > On Sat, 27 Mar 1999, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > > I just thought of something... -If- the Aesir accepted Uriel's crusade as > > a war, there would hardly be any question of weregild or bloodfeud, would > > there? > > Hr.... Well. Sort of, but unless there had been a peace settlement the > Norse can in turn do what they want to the angels. The fact that the war > occurred over a thousand years is *not* going to matter to Odin unless it > is politically expedient for the time to matter; Odin is patient. Ah, of course. Didn't think about that. I don't think there's been a formal settlement, or if there has, it's been kept -very- secret. > When the Norse made war, they took captives as slaves, who typically had > the right to earn their own money and could buy their freedom if their > masters permitted, but who could be killed if the master wished and if > killed by an outsider weregild was paid to the master, not the family. > But I don't know if they believed genocide was wrong or just wasteful. > And the writeup in _The Marches_ sounded as if Odin managed things well > enough that Uriel never had a *chance* to attack Odin's noncombatants. I'm not sure if the Norse even had the -concept- of genocide, so it's difficult to judge how the Norse gods would view it. IIRC, the Norse killed off (pretty much/just about/completely) everyone on the northern Scottish islands and settled there themselves, but I don't think that was a "policy decision". Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! We don't get extra credit for how much suffering we endure. The only score worth keeping is how little suffering we inflict and how much we relieve. - Ghost ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:55:20 +0100 From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: IN> Alternate Crusades - The Dream Crusade >>>1) Most of Blandine's servitors are Menunim, for whom such direct >>>action would almost certainly be dissonant. > >I don't think most of Blandine's Servitors are Menunim -- just almost all >Menunim are Blandine's Servitors. > OK. But such direct action would still be discordant for the Menunites, probably causing a few to stumble and leading to even fewer Menunim and a few more Pachadim. - -- Mark Baker (L'Ange de l'Abime) aka. Simeon, Mercurian of Novalis aka. Rebekkah, Menunite of Blandine "Some of my best friends are demons. You know where you stand with them." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:50:51 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Perl and Angel fiction At 9:35 AM -0500 3/24/99, James M. Zoshak wrote: >Djinn: Stalker Horror ("I Know What You Did Last Summer") Serials. Especially ones with two or three hundred books in the series, like Sweet Valley HIgh (Exactly how long are those Wakefield twins going to stay in High school?), Hardy Boys, or Baby Sitters' Club. And they have two copies of /every/ single book, one for reading, and one for saving, and they always read them in order of publishing... Oh. The topic's about what books they'd /write/. Nevermind. ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Xander, Djinn Baron of Drugs, the Demon of Tranquilizers. | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:24:16 PST From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Lilim and love Elizabeth McCoy recently discussed how a (potentially Bright) Lilim would view the idea of voluntarily serving someone out of love. I agree that this attitude proves she's on her way to redemption; in my opinion, no Lilim could even *think* this way unless she were. Any kind of love involves some loss of freedom, because any kind of love implies that your actions are influenced to some degree by the wishes or well-being of someone other than yourself. You or I take this as a given. To a demon it's either an impossibility or undesirable. (How many choirs and Demon Princes take dissonance if they allow themselves to care about their victims?) To a Lilim it is *right out.* I put them right up there with Djinn in this respect. This of course does not apply to Bright Lilim in my opinion. However, I know of a Bright Lilim of Trade who disagrees. The player thereof expresses the opinion that unconditional love is contrary to the Lilim mindset even when Bright, that commitment and the idea of two people "belonging" to each other, giving themselves to each other, could not be a part of any Lilim relationship. I look at the Bright Lilim writeup in the IPG (or at least I did; it doesn't belong to me so it isn't available at the moment), and disagree. Janet Anderson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1182 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.