From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jun 11 16:21:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15549 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:21:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA09202 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:24:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:24:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199906112124.QAA09202@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1255 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, June 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1255 In this digest: Re: IN> Habbalh and angels Re: IN> Habbalh and angels Re: IN> Habbalh and angels Re: IN> Habbalh and angels Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray Aftermath Campaign Seed Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: IN> And the Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray AftermathCampaign Seed Re: IN> And the Bands Played On: Bright Victory, Gray Aftermath Cammpaign Seed Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray AftermathCampaign Seed Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray Aftermath Campaign Seed Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray AftermathCampaignSeed Re: IN> Habbalah and angels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:48:20 -0400 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: Re: IN> Habbalh and angels Whistling in the Dark wrote: > > [All Habbalah think they are angels] > >Which means I have to ask.... > >Vapula. > >He just... doesn't seem Habbalah to me. He seems almost Djinn-like >with his obsession for technology, and of course he doesn't care >about the subjects of his experiments, but he *doesn't* seem like a >Sadist (and certainly doesn't seem like an Instrument of God's >Punishment) so much as someone who would sacrifice everything to the >alter of Science. That one's easy: Most Habbalah think serve God. But Vapula thinks he *is* God. Scary how well that works, no? - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:50:56 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Habbalh and angels Another take on Vapula is that, while most Habbalah seek to simply punish the weak, Vapula takes a more scientific/technical/industrial approach and seeks to "eliminate the unfit" (a la Darwin) or "test to destruction" or even "improve" things. You have to be strong, agile, and clever to survive the pollution and hazards Vapula spins into technology. And if you survive one round, he ups the ante, to make sure the next round of survivors are even better. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:26:37 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Habbalh and angels Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > That one's easy: > > Most Habbalah think serve God. But Vapula thinks he *is* God. > > Scary how well that works, no? But then, why does he bother to work with other Princes? Perhaps to further his own work, since they come to -him-, they must really be serving him, hmm? - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:56:50 -0400 (EDT) From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman) Subject: Re: IN> Habbalh and angels At 4:48 PM 6/10/99, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >That one's easy: > >Most Habbalah think serve God. But Vapula thinks he *is* God. I like him better as the self-proclaimed Archangel of Progress[tm], shepherding mortals with Vision towards a new, technological Eden. J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:57:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray Aftermath Campaign Seed > From: Ratoslov Lenev > Subject: IN> Re:And the Bands played on > > > I LOVE it! > Drama, romance, conflict... The humans'll be > LINING UP for WEEKS! This is the best thing > since STAR WARS! > > Seriously, I like it. Can't wait for the writeups of > the Princes. It might take a little while, but They'll be posted eventually. > Although, I can't imagine that all of the angels left > the Damned to their Fates... I would have loved to have some angels to stay around after Armageddon, but I couldn't think a reason that would be compatible with the premise. The first part is a Bright Victory. The good guys won. All te hard work and sacrafice the angels went through has paid off and they got to leave and take all the people they were fighting for with them. The only humans left are the damned (both the dead souls and the ones still living) and humans who chose to stay instead of leave like those who were faithful to the Ethereal Gods. The former had their chance, and while the angels regret the latter choosing to stay, they have to respect free will. Any angels staying would imply there's still something worth fighting over, and that all the Angels should stay and fight for the damned. It would invaldate the Bright Victory. The Old War was the Good vs the Bad, or more accurately, The Selfless vs the Selfish. The New War is the Not So Bad vs the Very Bad, Freedom vs Repression, Enlightened Self Interest vs Totalitarian Domination. White is in the winner's circle. Now it's the Gray and the Black. Now, this does not mean there is no hope for Redemption in the world. The stories of a penitent, humble Uriel turning the Lower Heavens into a Purgatory might be true, and those who are truly changed may have a way out. But most people who are left will be thinking about making the most out of a bad situation, not striving for grace. Why would any angel want to stay where they are not wanted, when victory has been declared and God's driving everyone home. It's not that I'm hostile to the idea of angels remaining. I just can't think of a good reason any would stay anywhere past the Lower Heavens. But I am flexible on this position. > > I can see... > Neo-Princess Novalis, Prince of Flowers: > The world is destroyed, but flowers will still grow, > in the hearts and minds of humanity. Good one. Of all the Archangels I see her as one of the most likely to stay. She's so compassionate that she wouldn't give up on even the damned. Maybe she and her servitors could keep Uriel's brood company in the Lower Heavens. > Neo-Prince Yves, Prince of Destiny > The world? ... But didn't everyone meet their Fate, or in the case of the non-damned who stayed, chose to refuse their Destiny? > Neo-Prince Eli, Prince of Destiny > But the Symphony is Lucifer's now, why stay and make gifts for him? > And, of course, I'd imagine that ther are more than a > few new princes in the war... Very true. I'll definitely have to come up with some new Princes, recruited from the ranks of the dead Princes' servitors. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 21:25:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On > From: BillionSix@aol.com > Subject: Re: IN> And the Bands Played On: Bright Victory, Gray Aftermath Campaign Seed > > Cool campaign idea! I loved it! > Now as much as I hate messing with other people's work, (I'm a purist at > heart and find it difficult to stray from canon) I would make one minor > change to your world. I've got no problem with people messing with my work. It's sort of a work in progress anyway. What I posted to the list was just the first draft, as one can probably tell by the typos. I probably should have developed it further but I was inspired. I just had to send something as soon as possible. One change I'm considering is changing the identity of the Sorceror Superior. I threw him in because I wanted to establish a human led revolt could actually change the status quo in Hell. I didn't have a particular person in mind, I just needed a historically known sorceror with a formidable reputation. St. Germain was the first one I thought of. John Dee was another one I thought of but I decided he probably wouldn't have ended up in Hell. Since then I've come up with some other canidates who could also fit the bill: Count Alessandro Cagliostro Dr. Johannes Faust (Yes, the character from the Christopher Marlowe play. Using him would mean the play was based on a real incident) Aleister Crowley Simon Magus Caine (But the problem is, if one sticks to the bible he'd be walking around Earth, not working in Archives. He could be a member of The Dozen) Anyone have preference from among these? Any historical sorcerors that I missed? > BRING BACK SAMINGA!!! > I hate to say it, but I love the big dumb jerk! Plus it would create a > certain irony. Everything is in upheaval, the basic nature of the universe > has changed, but Saminga is still Saminga, sitting in Abaddon, shouting > "Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!" at the sky, and working toward Zombi Earth. A sick > little constant in a changing universe. I'm might actually do this. I just have to figure out what to do with him, or if he just sits there, what the others do about him. I've got a number of different ideas. Now I just have to choose. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas kk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 21:39:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> And the Bands Played On > From: EDG > Plus, you've got to think that after the Apocalypse, Saminga's going to > have just piles and piles of bodies waiting around to reanimate. ;) Especially with Haagenti not around to munch down on them. :-) > > Actually, why was Saminga weakened when he returned from Earth? He may > have been kind of sore, but his Word would have been strengthened each and > every time something died; it should at least have balanced out. Well, it was a Bright Victory, so I assumed that the Angels kind of kicked ass. Laurence went after him with his lightsaber and the mysterious Archangel of Death probably decided to stop staring in Discworld novels and put his sickle to good use :-) So, I figured that the big battle is what weakened him. I hadn't really considered his Word strengthening him. With that under consideration he could be in better shape than I first thought, though he was probably whitled down at least a little. As it goes, I might not have him die anyway. I think I might have a better idea. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 21:48:38 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray AftermathCampaign Seed - ----- Original Message ----- From: Benjamin Acosta > > It's not that I'm hostile to the idea of angels remaining. I just can't > think of a good reason any would stay anywhere past the Lower Heavens. In the case of the Malakim, it's because they would be violating their most primary Oath, that of not allowing an evil to live if it's their choice. Even if somebody explains to them extremely patiently that it is God's Will that this happen, it will drive most Malakim to anger over letting Hell run rampant over the Earth. Azzur, Malakim of the Sword in service to Protection ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:02:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> And the Bands Played On: Bright Victory, Gray Aftermath Cammpaign Seed > From: BillionSix@aol.com > > Another thing. What exactly happened on earth? What's left? What percentage > of the world is still around? Is post-apocalypse earth now business as usual? > Or is it a Scorched Earth scenario, with big craters where major cities used > to be? Not exactly sure yet. When I first conceived of the scenario originally I was just going to have all the action happen in Hell. Then I thought, hey Beleth and Bladine are gone, and all those Ethereal Gods who sat around and watched Armageddon are still around. I can't leave the Marches out. And if I was going to have the Marches I might as well throw in the whole ball of essence, so I came up with a rough idea of the status of each of the Realms. Post-apocalypse Earth has definitely seen its wars and catastrophes but I'm not sure how bad I want to make it. It probably is better off than Redneck's Dark Victory Earth because instead of demons rampaging across the globe they were chased back to Hell. There probably are destoyed and abandoned cities, altered and unstable political situations, and whatnot, but there is still enough left for civilization to recover. Who's calling the shots of that rebuilt civiliztion is the real question. I haven't really come up with specifics yet. I'll probably try to update Austin and Los Angeles for the Post-War world, but that's after I figure out the big picture. One big complication I have to consider is how much of the world was worthy to get into Heaven (or at least Uriel's Purgatory) and how many of those qualified might have chosen to stay for some reason or another. My major stumbling block is that I've yet to recieve a copy of the Destiny/Fate Census Results yet. It's Hell getting things out of Archives and whenever I ask around the Library all Yves does is give that infuriating enigmatic smile :-) Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:32:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray AftermathCampaign Seed On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Prodigal wrote: > In the case of the Malakim, it's because they would be violating their > most primary Oath, that of not allowing an evil to live if it's their > choice. It's not violating the oath to let evil live upon the order of your superior; receiving orders makes it not your choice. Malakim of Stone don't get dissonance by refusing to start fights with evil, because it is David's orders that they not do so. > Even if somebody explains to them extremely patiently that it is God's > Will that this happen, it will drive most Malakim to anger over > letting Hell run rampant over the Earth. Maybe, maybe not. If Heaven got out all the repetant, I can easily see the Malakim figuring that the evil were left to stew in their own juices, and that was a fitting enough fate. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 04:49:28 -0400 From: Hilary Hayes Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On From Ashley, >Anyone have preference from among these? Any historical sorcerors that I missed?< Rasputin Merlin The Pope (any Pope will do but some are more interesting than others) A whole host of people from around the end of the dark ages and the beginning of the renaissance. Equally you might want to use an organisation rather than an individual. The Bavarian Illuminati, the Freemasons, Cathars, etc. Ultimately it may depend on precisely what you mean by sorceror. I would advise against using Crowley unless you are prepared to do an immense amount of research into his life, works, methodology, and in particular the Golden Dawn including its evolution, membership and subsequent organisations. Ashley. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:39:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On Benjamin Acosta wrote: > Caine (But the problem is, if one sticks to the bible he'd be walking > around Earth, not working in Archives. Uh, no, the Bible doesn't paint Cain -- or anyone else -- as wandering the Earth forever. That's an add-on. Unless you mean the World of Darkness "bible." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:10:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray Aftermath Campaign Seed At 8:57 PM -0500 6/10/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: >It's not that I'm hostile to the idea of angels remaining. I just can't >think of a good reason any would stay anywhere past the Lower Heavens. >But I am flexible on this position. What about Outcasts? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:23:24 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On; Bright Victory, Gray AftermathCampaignSeed - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Bartley >On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Prodigal wrote: > >> In the case of the Malakim, it's because they would be violating their >> most primary Oath, that of not allowing an evil to live if it's their >> choice. > >It's not violating the oath to let evil live upon the order of your >superior; receiving orders makes it not your choice. Agreed on the matter of choice, but I still think most Malakim will feel that Oath chafing something fierce in the aftermath of the War. >> Even if somebody explains to them extremely patiently that it is God's >> Will that this happen, it will drive most Malakim to anger over >> letting Hell run rampant over the Earth. > >Maybe, maybe not. If Heaven got out all the repetant, I can easily see >the Malakim figuring that the evil were left to stew in their own juices, >and that was a fitting enough fate. I can see what you mean, but I still think that the Malakim would have an extremely hard time accepting retirement. When your entire being is devoted to fighting evil, and you're stuck somewhere that there isn't any evil, eventually cabin fever will set in. So the most likely result will be that the Malakim would cease to exist as a choir in this campaign, with some following a course opposite to that which created them (becoming members of other choirs, as members of other choirs became the first Malakim,) and those that are unwilling to change becoming the Tsayadim patrolling the Lower Heavens both to keep demons out, carrying out the occasional search-and-destroy mission, or every once in awhile rescuing the rare human who not only desires Heaven, but deserves to be let in. Hmmm, perhaps this is another campaign that fits my personal take on Fallen Malakim too, now that I think of it... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:22:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: Re: IN> Habbalah and angels > From: Whistling in the Dark > > Which means I have to ask.... > > Vapula. > > He just... doesn't seem Habbalah to me. He seems almost Djinn-like > with his obsession for technology, and of course he doesn't care > about the subjects of his experiments, but he *doesn't* seem like a > Sadist (and certainly doesn't seem like an Instrument of God's > Punishment) so much as someone who would sacrifice everything to the > alter of Science. "Well, what is Science but the attempt to understand the rules of the Universe? And who writes the rules of the Universe? God. To comprehend the creator, study his creation. Through the pursuit of Science God's Mind will be revealed. It is through the crucible of experimentation that the Truth is discovered and weak misconceptions destroyed. Technology is the way of the Holy, for it is the practical application of God's Laws. The Lab is his church, and Expermimentation is his most holy sacrament." Vapula's response to "Why?" from Test Subject 47J, shortly before induced Force reconfiguration, Djinnetic Engineering Experiment No. 23 Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1255 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.