From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jul 7 09:43:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17646 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:43:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id JAA02927 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:44:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:44:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199907071444.JAA02927@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1277 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, July 7 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1277 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1275 Re: IN> Historical Questions Re: IN> Historical Questions IN> Re: IN- DFW Game IN> Re: IN- DFW Game Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1275 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1275 Re: IN> Ethereals and the Symphony Re: IN> Thor and Loki Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1275 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1275 IN> Historical Questions IN> Shedite of Death Re: IN> Shedite of Death IN> Corporeal Song of Shields Re: IN> Corporeal Song of Shields Re: IN> Corporeal Song of Shields ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:11:26 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1275 In a message dated 7/5/99 3:19:53 PM, Samovar3@aol.com writes: >Vapula became a Demon Prince during the Industrial Revolution according to >the IPG, so unless I've got the dates completely screwed up, he's not quite a >Prince during 1492. He should be around by that time, and probably already >has his Word of Technology. Who he's a servitor to is a good question. >Technology doesn't seem to fit under any of the Words of the Princes of the >time. > I'd personally put him under Kronos. Although Vapula *could* be a servitor of Valefor.... ><if he doesn't get his fingers into this because the underlying theme of >the sequence is the great Divorce between Magick and Science.>> > >Without a date on the Legion incident, Jean could be fairly new to his >expanded duties and he or his servitors can unknowingly help Vapula with >this. This could explain why Jean became so cautious and micromanages >everything. > >S. Flanigan > Umm.... Considering that Rafael's rumored remnant was Michaelangelo, I'd say she's at the height of her power (And Archangel of Knowledge, IIRC). Would this put a crimp in your plans? Considering some of the rumors about just how 'close' Jean and Rafael were, that could lead to some interesting conflicts. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:24:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Historical Questions I think Saminga would be a good Superior for Vapula to have served under. A large fraction of his inventions are deliberate or accidental death-traps. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:39:14 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Historical Questions At 15:47 -0400 7/4/99, Hilary Sklar wrote: >However, I can't find a date for when Haagenti was promoted. Who was Demon >Prince of gluttony in 1492? And what about Vapula? Was he around? I would guess that Haagenti would have been Prince by then, I don't recall any specific canon on his dates. Personally, I'd place Vapula's rise to Prince around the start of the Industrial Revolution. I'm not sure whether that contradicts any canon, though. If Vapula was involved in the start of the industrial age, I can see that as a good reason for him to have been promoted. While his Word was clearly around earlier, I can't think of a better demarcation point for his promotion before that.... Gunpowder is the only other decent one I can think of, offhand. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 09:53:51 PDT From: Miles 2 Go Subject: IN> Re: IN- DFW Game Greetings, I live out in Flower Mound (west of Lewisville, north of DFW airport). That's a bit of a drive to Grand Prairie, but not too bad. I do most of my gaming on the weekends, when I have the time. Which isn't every weekend. However, I am very much interested in getting a chance to play In Nomine, so I'd like to hear more details. About myself... I'm an avid role-player. I've been gaming for twenty years, started at twelve, I'm thirty-two now. I'm way past hack & slash and mostly focus on roleplaying these days. I'm also have a professional job, and two kids. So my gaming is almost entirely restricted to weekends. I've been known to chat on a phone during the week. I don't smoke and generally don't game with people who smoke. Well, people who keep it outside are ok, but not at the gaming table. My real name is Tim Wilbanks. If you let me know more about your group, when and how often you play, I'd like to try to stop by for a session. Regards, Tim >From: Rebecca Wright >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Re: IN> DFW Game >Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:47:15 -0700 > >Hi, > >Saw your post on the list serve. We are in the process of organizing a >IN campaign and we are also here in DFW. We would like to know if we can >play in your game or you in ours? Weekends are the best time for us to >get to play. We live here in Grand Prairie. Where 'bouts are you? >You can contact us at this e-mail address above or call us at >972-641-8371. Leave a message if we are not in. > >Chris Starr and Rebecca Wright > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 09:55:51 PDT From: Miles 2 Go Subject: IN> Re: IN- DFW Game Greetings, Ack, my apologies to the whole list for flooding it with a personal mail. That's what happens when you hit reply and don't check the reply to field. Sorry, Tim _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 18:08:17 +0100 From: Hilary Sklar Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1275 At 18:16 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >Vapula became a Demon Prince during the Industrial Revolution according the >the IPG, so unless I've got the dates completely screwed up, he's not quite a >Prince during 1492. He should be around by that time, and probably already >has his Word of Technology. < I =knew= I had read this somewhere. Thanks. >Who he's a servitor to is a good question. >Technology doesn't seem to fit under any of the Words of the Princes of the >time.< I think I'm going to go for Baal. War drives technology. Technology drives war. As Mamon will also be involved this could get very interesting..... >Without a date on the Legion incident, Jean could be fairly new to his >expanded duties and he or his servitors can unknowingly help Vapula with >this. This could explain why Jean became so cautious and micromanages >everything.< This is pretty much in line with the way I was intending to take the scenario. The concept between the campaign is the impending divorce between Faith and Science. In 1492 they were still pretty happily married, but the splits were beginning to show.... - - Regards Hilary hilary.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 18:25:14 +0100 From: Hilary Sklar Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1275 >> >Umm.... Considering that Rafael's rumored remnant was Michaelangelo, I'd say >she's at the height of her power (And Archangel of Knowledge, IIRC). Would >this put a crimp in your plans? Considering some of the rumors about just how >'close' Jean and Rafael were, that could lead to some interesting conflicts. > Michaelangelo b.1475. For the rumour to have any credence, that dates the Legion incident pretty accurately. Leaving aside how long a prominent figure might be a prominent figure before it turns into a role for an angel (in which case, what happens to the child it was before anyone except its relatives knew about it), the concept leaves certain things nicely adrift at the date I have chosen - things I would like to have nicely adrift. As this is a tournament scenario for a convention and I have no idea how familiar the players will be with IN (some will probably never have =seen= it before and not all of the GMs will have in-depth knowledge of the background), I think I can safely leave this sort of thing implicit. There if anyone wants to play with it... Though I might well pick it up and run with it later. In the privacy of my own home. - - Regards Hilary hilary.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:04:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals and the Symphony At 10:32 PM -0500 7/3/99, Amo Nympham wrote: >I don't remember if I read it and I can't find references...do Ethereals >function as celestials for Disturbing the Symphony and perceiving >Disturbances? I can't remember the place, but since ethereals aren't supposed to be on Earth, the answer is yes -- they disturb the Symphony when they spend Essence, affect mortals or the corporeal realm, and yes, they can perceive disturbances. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:04:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Thor and Loki At 11:04 PM -0500 7/3/99, Amo Nympham wrote: >I was reading No Dinero and I noticed that neither Thor nor Loki have >vessels. is this a typo? Do all Ethereals manifest without vessels? if >so, how do I calculate their body hits? perhaps some errata for this? Check the errata. www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 15:01:03 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1275 Hilary Sklar wrote: > >Without a date on the Legion incident, Jean could be fairly new to his > >expanded duties and he or his servitors can unknowingly help Vapula with > >this. This could explain why Jean became so cautious and micromanages > >everything.< > > This is pretty much in line with the way I was intending to take the > scenario. The concept between the campaign is the impending divorce > between Faith and Science. In 1492 they were still pretty happily married, > but the splits were beginning to show.... If this is the theme of the campaign, I think you have it set too early. The open split between Faith and Science is quite recent; on a large scale, it really only dates to the second half of the 19th century. Enlightenment figures like Descartes and Newton made it through with their faith pretty much intact. The real cranks, like Hume, didn't become active until significantly later than this. Someone like Galileo wasn't undermining Faith, so much as Authority. It could certainly be argued that a very long term consequence of this was a loss of Faith (see: Holy War), but it certainly isn't what anyone at the time intended. For a long time, it was assumed that by practicing Science, and furthering one's understanding of Nature, one's Faith would be reinforced. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 23:14:52 +0100 From: Hilary Sklar Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1275 >If this is the theme of the campaign, I think you have it set too early. >The open >split between Faith and Science is quite recent; on a large scale, it really >only >dates to the second half of the 19th century. Enlightenment figures like >Descartes and Newton made it through with their faith pretty much intact. The >real cranks, like Hume, didn't become active until significantly later than >this. I think you missed my original post. The campaign, as a whole entity, runs from 1492 up to the end of the world. The precise point at which the world ends will be up to the characters in the campaign, but it's certainly some time beyond 6.7.99 . Others have told me I haven't started it =early= enough. I do accept the arguments about starting with Plato, but I have to start it =somewhere= and I have chosen to start it in 1492 for cogent reasons. >Someone like Galileo wasn't undermining Faith, so much as Authority. It could >certainly be argued that a very long term consequence of this was a loss of >Faith >(see: Holy War), but it certainly isn't what anyone at the time intended. >For a >long time, it was assumed that by practicing Science, and furthering one's >understanding of Nature, one's Faith would be reinforced. > The Divorce I was speaking about is maybe not so much the split between science and faith which is, I agree, a modern phenomenon (and, even now, not universal - you only have to read Stephen Hawkins to see how faith and science can still walk hand in hand). It's more about the split between Magic and Science which is typified by the life and fate of Bruno. Galileo and, indeed, Newton, were profoundly religious, but they were not magicians (although Newton's comments on astrology remain interesting). I was, actually, going to use the word 'spirituality' rather than 'faith' but I changed it at the last minute. In many ways religion and science have conspired to marginalise the magical approach to natural philosophy over the last half millenium or so. This is very much the material I'm trying to explore. (It's also why the later parts of the campaign are unlikely to be run in In Nomine). Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:14:13 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Historical Questions >>>I think canon is quite clear about the Archangelic situation at the time. However, I can't find a date for when Haagenti was promoted. Who was Demon Prince of gluttony in 1492? And what about Vapula? Was he around?<<< According to the current draft of the IN Timeline (which will be in the GMG), Haagenti was Prince by 1492, but Vapula is still an anonymous nobody, if he even exists at all yet. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 23:16:50 -0600 From: Michael Tarr Subject: IN> Shedite of Death I couldn't find an answer to this question myself, so I shall ask it here: A Shedite of Death can posess corpses (IN p. 178). Now, if posessing a live human as a host, and the host is killed, which of the following happens: 1) Shedite is ejected, takes dissonance, but is free to inhabit the corpse at the first available opportunity? 2) Host dies, Shedite remains in the corpse, taking no dissonance? 3) Some combination of the above options? I would assume Option 1 is correct, but the player in question argues that the Word of Death permits Option 2 to be valid, since now that the host is dead, the corpse is a better host than the living one, and a Shedite of Death should be used to having hosts die... Thanks Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:25:04 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Shedite of Death At 11:16 PM 7/6/99 -0600, you wrote: >1) Shedite is ejected, takes dissonance, but is free to inhabit the corpse at > the first available opportunity? >2) Host dies, Shedite remains in the corpse, taking no dissonance? >3) Some combination of the above options? >I would assume Option 1 is correct, but the player in question argues that the >Word of Death permits Option 2 to be valid, since now that the host is dead, >the corpse is a better host than the living one, and a Shedite of Death should >be used to having hosts die... IMO, #1. A Shedite of Saminga still gets dissonance from letting a host die, and as I read the rules must _actively_ possess a corpse. So, when the host dies, the Shedite is ejected as per usual and takes dissonance, and then may possess the cadaver. When a host dies, it's usually sudden, if the Shedite is still in when the host dies. The Shedite suddenly doesn't have a mind to cling to, to give tentacle kisses to, to corrupt - and so it looks for the nearest thing to corrupt, and that's itself. In a moment of confusion, it corrupts /itself/ - - giving itself a note of dissonance. The Shedite of Death can then get a grip on itself, look around, and notice that there's a nice tasty corpse to possess. And it does. - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 04:36:16 -0400 From: EDG Subject: IN> Corporeal Song of Shields Quick question - as nothing corporeal can get through a Corporeal Song of Shields... and sound is vibrations through air... can anything outside a Corporeal Shield be heard by those inside, and vice versa? - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:40:32 +1000 From: "Shane" Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal Song of Shields On 7 Jul 99, at 4:36, EDG wrote: > Quick question - as nothing corporeal can get through a Corporeal Song of > Shields... and sound is vibrations through air... can anything outside a > Corporeal Shield be heard by those inside, and vice versa? > > -EDG Ooh. I don't know whether any of the supplements offer modifications, alternatives or whatever, but in the main book (p84) the Corporeal Song of Shields "manifests as cushion of whirling air which buffets any Corporeal Force approaching it. The miniature cyclone surrounds its subjects on all sides." Seems to me that the problem is not so much outside sounds getting through, as it is those sounds being heard over the ruckus from the miniature cyclone! However: I don't know how much sound such a tiny cyclone would indeed make. It actually might not make much sound at all. On the other hand, a cushion of air that can deflect bullets would be of considerable power. This could well be one of those situations where you make a GM call. Getting too technical about how Songs work can be dangerous - is gravity a Corporeal force? radiation? the weak and strong nuclear fields which bind matter together? uh oh... Me? I'd keep it simple. "no physical attack can get through" - the Symphony just *knows* what a physical attack is, something corporeal which would harm those protected by the Song, and anything else isn't obstructed. PS. Some games I've seen, the GM allows the Corp Shields to manifest as something other a cushion of air - eg, glowing armor for angels of war, whirling dishes (or other wierdness) for angels of creation, etc :>. No difference in game mechanics, just visualisation. Shane. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:42:49 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal Song of Shields At 4:36 -0400 7/7/99, EDG wrote: >Quick question - as nothing corporeal can get through a Corporeal Song of >Shields... and sound is vibrations through air... can anything outside a >Corporeal Shield be heard by those inside, and vice versa? I would say sound would generally get through -- but not very *intense* sound, such as a explosion outside the shield. Playing physics with Songs is dangerous -- a strict reading would suggest that Shields would block the flow of oxygen, too. I'd go with the notion that it really only blocks macroscopic and high-energy effects. Presumably, it would stop lasers, too, though the description of the mechanism would imply otherwise. In GURPS IN, I think we used the spell Force Dome as the basis for this Song. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1277 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.