From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jul 8 10:15:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27830 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:15:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA01689 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:12:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:12:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199907081512.KAA01689@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1278 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, July 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1278 In this digest: Re: IN> Shedite of Death Re: IN> Shedite of Death Re: IN> Shedite of Death Re: IN> Shedite of Death Re: IN> Shedite of Death IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements IN> real life IN> Gabriel Re: IN> Gabriel Re: IN> Gabriel IN> remove-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Re: IN> Gabriel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:50:03 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Shedite of Death At 1:16 -0400 7/7/99, Michael Tarr wrote: >A Shedite of Death can posess corpses (IN p. 178). Now, if posessing a live >human as a host, and the host is killed, which of the following happens: > >1) Shedite is ejected, takes dissonance, but is free to inhabit the corpse at > the first available opportunity? That's the right answer, I believe -- there's nothing in Saminga's writeup that exempts his Shedim from their normal dissonance condition. Maybe one could argue that there *should* have been, but since such things are stated explicitly elsewhere for other circumstances, I'd rule that the book's intent is pretty clear. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 10:56:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Shedite of Death Walter Milliken wrote: > Maybe one could argue that there *should* have been, but since such > things are stated explicitly elsewhere for other circumstances, I'd > rule that the book's intent is pretty clear. Why, after all, would Saminga want to make it easy for his Shedim to inhabit the living? That's how I'd guess Saminga would look at it, even if it doesn't make sense. Which raises a meta-point-- Do Superiors design the abilities and dissonances for their servitors, or do they flow automatically from their Word? I'd guess the former, since some, like Jean's, change rapidly with history. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:14:01 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Shedite of Death At 11:56 -0400 7/7/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Which raises a meta-point-- Do Superiors design the abilities and >dissonances for their servitors, or do they flow automatically from >their Word? I'd guess the former, since some, like Jean's, change >rapidly with history. I don't think this has been established yet in canon. I'd go with the model that they're a result of the interactions of Choir/Band nature with the current Symphonic state of the Word. Thus, Jean's attunements have changed not because he changed them, but because the expression of his Word has changed in the Symphony. This model would suggest that Choir attunements change automatically; without the Superior's personal attention. Not everything fits this model, of course -- those Choir/Band attunements that give external Resources (e.g., a lot of Nybbas' and Vapula's) are probably just "standard operating procedure" for those Superior's organizations, and not changes in the nature of the Servitor during the attunement process. But I'd say the others evolve out of the Symphony, and aren't "designed". I think you can make a case either way, though. I mostly prefer the "just happen" model for a meta-reason -- I don't want Choir/Band attunements and their interactions proliferating in the game, just for sanity's sake.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:16:10 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> Shedite of Death On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, EDG wrote: > IMO, #1. A Shedite of Saminga still gets dissonance from letting a host > die, and as I read the rules must _actively_ possess a corpse. So, when > the host dies, the Shedite is ejected as per usual and takes dissonance, > and then may possess the cadaver. > In canon, I believe the following happens. Not in my game, but... 1: Shedite possesses Fred. 2: Fred's brain explodes for no good reason, killing him. 3: Shedite pops out of Fred's Corpse and takes a note of dissonance. 4: Dissonance roll. 2 5 Check 2. Shedite takes no Discord. 5: Shedite tries to hop in the corpse. 6: Shedite CANNOT because its resonance is unusable for 2 hours (check digit of the dissonance roll) 7: Shedite looks around anxiously, not wanting to go into trauma...10xCelestial Forces minutes to find a host...hope it has the song of possession! Now, it can't have more than 6 Celestial Forces. It can't roll less than a 1 on the dissonance roll. 6x10 is 60 minutes or one hour to find a host. Which is the same as the at least one hour where it cannot use its resonance...oops! The attunement for corpse possession must be resonance-dependent (it says possess) and therefore inoperational as well. If it's not resonance-dependent, any Servitor of Saminga could take it and use corpses instead of risking their vessels on Earth. Now, if the Shedite has the Song of Possession and say 5 Celestial Forces, it need only use the song successfully 3 times (for six essence total assuming it doesn't fail) to keep inside a host until it can resonate again. But even one use (by my reading) will put it safely inside a host so as to avoid Trauma... At which point it can hop between relatively short durations on the Song of Possession and spans of 10xCelestial Forces minutes of free floating. If it rolls a 6 for check digit on the dissonance roll, it just sucks to be the Shedite. Now, IMC, Shedim of Death are immune to the dissonance from host death. Their Superior's dissonance restrictions are already fairly alarming, so I just modified them...they cannot do anything to help or encourage a human to live. Plus, my specific addition is that they cannot leave the host in better condition then they found it. Powerful? Yes. But everyone hates you. And it goes well with my theory that every Prince can't help but let his Word manifest through him in such a way as to favor his own Band. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:58:18 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Shedite of Death At 11:16 PM -0600 7/6/99, Michael Tarr wrote: >A Shedite of Death can posess corpses (IN p. 178). Now, if posessing a live >human as a host, and the host is killed, which of the following happens: > >1) Shedite is ejected, takes dissonance, but is free to inhabit the corpse at > the first available opportunity? >2) Host dies, Shedite remains in the corpse, taking no dissonance? >3) Some combination of the above options? I vote for 1 -- there's nothing in their description that indicates they're immune to their Band dissonance condition. You _might_ let them make their resonance roll to possess the corpse before being ejected (akin to an "oozing" into a new host), but they should still get the dissonance. (I could see letting them get away with using their resonance-based Band Attunement even thought they'd just taken dissonance. They are, after all, still "inside" the now-corpse.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:58:13 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Creating Attunements At 10:56 AM -0500 7/7/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Which raises a meta-point-- Do Superiors design the abilities and >dissonances for their Servitors, or do they flow automatically from >their Word? I'd guess the former, since some, like Jean's, change >rapidly with history. A bit of both, actually, is my intent. The Superior can bend the nature a bit, designing something (or trying for something), but there's just so far they can manage before it doesn't work. (Dissonance flows from the Word.) In a totally non-canon plotline, for example, Jean gets his hands on an Impudite who is willing to do anything to avoid being smoking boots. Being in an experimental mood (for good and objective reasons, which we won't go into right now), Jean tries attuning the Impudite to his Word. He doesn't get the Vapulan Impudite "Essence Battery" effect (useful as that is) -- he _does_ get an Impudite who sucks electricity out of batteries, wall sockets, power lines, etc., and converts it to Essence (with disturbance equal to the amount of Essence sucked, and time-to-suck depending on the power-flow). He also gets an Impudite who stays plugged into things a lot, but hey. What a Superior can make his Word-Band/Choir interaction do probably depends a lot on the interpretation of his Word. But there's no hard canon on it yet. (And having them auto-change would keep old attunements from being left lying around... Though could the old versions be re-created as Servitor Attunements? Maybe, though it might be more expensive than it's worth, in terms of the Superior's time and energy...) Um. I think this boils down to, "the canon answer is that it's being thought about"? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 15:01:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements Before Jean's servitors could do nifty things with electronics and computers, could they do nifty things with clockwork and steam? And before clockwork and steam, could they do nifty things with, say, alchemical equipment? (About this time in the regression, we work our way back to Raphael and Jean's Word was probably different in scope, since I gather he had to take over a lot of Raphael's territory on that Archangel's demise.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:12:37 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements At 3:01 PM -0500 7/7/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Before Jean's servitors could do nifty things with electronics and >computers, could they do nifty things with clockwork and steam? And >before clockwork and steam, could they do nifty things with, say, >alchemical equipment? I don't know -- but I suspect that, say, his Ofanim might have been able to lightning-surf thunderstorms... And they probably always had Generator, if not by that name. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:57:40 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 10:56 AM -0500 7/7/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > >Which raises a meta-point-- Do Superiors design the abilities and > >dissonances for their Servitors, or do they flow automatically from > >their Word? I'd guess the former, since some, like Jean's, change > >rapidly with history. > A bit of both, actually, is my intent. The Superior can bend the nature > a bit, designing something (or trying for something), but there's just > so far they can manage before it doesn't work. (Dissonance flows from > the Word.) [big snip] > Um. I think this boils down to, "the canon answer is that it's being > thought about"? cool, 'cuz if Dissonance flows from the Word, how does one explain Gabriel's Dissonance conditions when her Servitors were almost certainly not always the way they are now? as Divine Messenger and Inspiration, one would think the Dissonance way back when would be something more along the lines of not delivering messages fast enough or some-such. the whole "punishing the guilty" doesn't fit with a historical Gabriel, methinks (depending on how far back one goes...). -=|horsefly|=- "Back off, preacher, I don't care if it's Sunday. I ain't no angel, but I never felt better!" --FREEDOM, Alice Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:06:19 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, -=|horsefly|=- wrote: > cool, 'cuz if Dissonance flows from the Word, how does one explain > Gabriel's Dissonance conditions when her Servitors were almost certainly > not always the way they are now? as Divine Messenger and Inspiration, > one would think the Dissonance way back when would be something more along > the lines of not delivering messages fast enough or some-such. the whole > "punishing the guilty" doesn't fit with a historical Gabriel, methinks > (depending on how far back one goes...). I disagree. Gabriel personally used to have the JOB of God's Messenger, but I think her servants have had pretty much the same task since the Fall. Her word means a lot of things...it may have been focused by the Magog incident, but I think she's been on this track basically since her betrayal by Belial. Sena ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:25:05 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, The Alien wrote: [my comment that Divine Fire's Dissonance has changed over time] > I disagree. Gabriel personally used to have the JOB of God's > Messenger, but I think her servants have had pretty much the same task IIRC, the APG (and before anyone gets on a rag about how bad the APG is and how this needs to be erratted too, we know you hate the APG, but i think some parts like this are good stuff) says her Servitors assisted in her task of spreading God's intentions to prophets and the like; Metatron and others are listed as having those functions. > since the Fall. Her word means a lot of things...it may have been focused > by the Magog incident, but I think she's been on this track basically > since her betrayal by Belial. that's your perrogative. from the expanded write-up in the Marches, it seems she's always been off-kilter, the Belial fiasco didn't help matters but she was still cogent most of the time, and it's only been in recent millenia with the Islam debacle and Dominic's fubar'd attempts at a trial that she's gone out of her gourd. i'd say up to the time of Dominic's call for her trial that her Servitors were more bent on delivering Heavenly messages to earth and other parts of Heaven than hunting down sinners. only with her own anger and attempts to focus it/ stay sane/angelic has she shifted her attention and that of her Servitors to punishing the still-living sinners. -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 23:28:09 +0100 From: Ashley Perryman Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements >the whole"punishing the guilty" doesn't fit with a historical Gabriel, methinks >(depending on how far back one goes...). > -=|horsefly|=- Not a lot about the historical (mythic) Gabriel fits. We could start with Fire which does not fit at all. Water would be more appropriate, however IN is a game and we should all go with the game concepts. Ashley ashley.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:48:30 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Ashley Perryman wrote: i'd pointed out: > >the whole"punishing the guilty" doesn't fit with a historical Gabriel, > >methinks (depending on how far back one goes...). > Not a lot about the historical (mythic) Gabriel fits. We could start with > Fire which does not fit at all. Water would be more appropriate, however depending on how one looks at it. Candlemass and St. Gabriel's Feaste of Lights seems to point well enough to the word of Fire for Gabriel that whatever the mythologically-correct point is, it fits well enough for me. out of curiosity, why do you think Water fits better? > IN is a game and we should all go with the game concepts. fair enough, but when the game itself points to the Archangel of Fire having changed her focus (again, IIRC within the APG), i think i am going with the game concepts. i'm not going for "right." i'm going for "consistent with previously published material that doesn't has no reason to be retconned." -=|horsefly|=- _Illegitimi non corborundum._ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 00:09:12 +0100 From: Ashley Perryman Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements > depending on how one looks at it. Candlemass and St. Gabriel's >Feaste of Lights seems to point well enough to the word of Fire for >Gabriel that whatever the mythologically-correct point is, it fits well >enough for me. out of curiosity, why do you think Water fits better? Because in "real life" Gabriel is the Archangel of Water. Reference - Golden Dawn, Vanishing Ritual of the Pentagram. If you want more on this ask away, I'll probably leave the answers to Hilary who is far better at the whole Judeo/Christian stuff than me. >> IN is a game and we should all go with the game concepts. > fair enough, but when the game itself points to the Archangel of >Fire having changed her focus (again, IIRC within the APG), i think i am >going with the game concepts. i'm not going for "right." i'm going for >"consistent with previously published material that doesn't has no >reason to be retconned." In full agreement with you on this. Regarding Gabriel changing her focus. Perhaps she changed her focus from water to fire Besides, I personally think Gariel as the Archangel of Fire is really cool - a great game concept. Ashley ashley.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:30:38 -0700 (PDT) From: -=|horsefly|=- Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Ashley Perryman wrote: i'd querried: > > depending on how one looks at it. Candlemass and St. Gabriel's > >Feaste of Lights seems to point well enough to the word of Fire for > >Gabriel that whatever the mythologically-correct point is, it fits well > >enough for me. out of curiosity, why do you think Water fits better? > Because in "real life" Gabriel is the Archangel of Water. Reference - and typically rendered as male rather than female ;) > Golden Dawn, Vanishing Ritual of the Pentagram. If you want more on this fascinating. sure, i'm game. not sure how much this relates to In Nomine now, so send that stuff privately to spare the other listers, if you would. > ask away, I'll probably leave the answers to Hilary who is far better at > the whole Judeo/Christian stuff than me. i'll check Gustav Davidson's _Dictionary of Angels_ when i get home, but i recall Gabriel fitting well enough under the Word of Fire according to Davidson's entry on Gabriel. > >> IN is a game and we should all go with the game concepts. > > fair enough, but when the game itself points to the Archangel of > >Fire having changed her focus (again, IIRC within the APG), i think i am > >going with the game concepts. i'm not going for "right." i'm going for > >"consistent with previously published material that doesn't has no > >reason to be retconned." > In full agreement with you on this. wow, agreement! :) > Regarding Gabriel changing her focus. Perhaps she changed her focus from > water to fire Besides, I personally think Gariel as the Archangel of > Fire is really cool - a great game concept. i love Gabby as Archangel of Fire. i also adore the idea that she and Novalis collaborated to create rock'n'roll (from the web-version of the playtest that i've downloaded onto my home computer months ago...). -=|horsefly|=- "Damn it, Senator! You promised me these men would be decently treated." "The were decently treated: they were decently fed... and then they were decently shot." --Fletcher and the Senator, THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:22:08 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Ashley Perryman wrote: > Because in "real life" Gabriel is the Archangel of Water. Reference - > Golden Dawn, Vanishing Ritual of the Pentagram. If you want more on this > ask away, I'll probably leave the answers to Hilary who is far better at > the whole Judeo/Christian stuff than me. Not to split hairs, but that epends on which real life source you want to use. According to Gustav Davidson in _A Dictionary of Angels_, there are just as many sources to credit Gabriel with being the Archangel of Fire and Punishment. "In jewish legend it was Gabriel who dealt death and destruction to the sinful cities of the plain (Sodom and Gommorah among them)" (page 117). "As for the incident of the three holy men (Hananiah, Mishael, Azariah) who were rescued from the furnace, it was Gabriel, according to Jewish legend, who performed this miracle" (page 119). Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:17:47 -0400 From: "Eddie" Subject: IN> real life Just something to remember when you start looking at "real life sources" the answer your going to get is going to vary from source to source. We are talking about Mythology and folklore here. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:25:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Gabriel Here's an idle thought: If: (1) Gabriel's Word is Fire, and (2) Humans associate Gabriel with both water and fire, and (3) Celestials gain power from human belief as Ethereals do, Then: the conflict between water and fire may be yet another contributing factor to Gabriel's insanity. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:40:07 -0500 From: "Amo Nympham" Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel or perhaps there's an ethereal version of Gabriel, one dedicated to water out there in the Marches; or the Gabriel of water is actually just one of her personalities, her id striking against her, if Celestials had psychology relevant to humans. - - Dennis H. Groome V "Amo Nympham" nallix@bellsouth.net ICQ: 11430261 "I think I woke up screaming 'cause I had a dream that you still loved me" -"ACF", Stabbing Westward - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Bartley To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 9:31 PM Subject: IN> Gabriel > >Here's an idle thought: > >If: > >(1) Gabriel's Word is Fire, and >(2) Humans associate Gabriel with both water and fire, and >(3) Celestials gain power from human belief as Ethereals do, > >Then: the conflict between water and fire may be yet another contributing >factor to Gabriel's insanity. > > Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:16:30 EDT From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel In a message dated 7/7/99 9:26:57 PM Central Daylight Time, ebartley@enteract.com writes: << If: (1) Gabriel's Word is Fire, and (2) Humans associate Gabriel with both water and fire, and (3) Celestials gain power from human belief as Ethereals do, Then: the conflict between water and fire may be yet another contributing factor to Gabriel's insanity. >> Wait a minute. I didn't know that Celestials gain power from human belief, and even if they do to an extent, they don't rely on it. Certainly a Word can grow and fade due to prominence, but still.... Anyway, bear in mind that most humans aren't clever like us. Most so-called Christians may not have even have heard of the Archangel Gabriel, let alone know its gender, Word, and so forth. They just believe in Gawd Loves Me and What Would Jesus Do? So I don't think there will be enough human belief in Gabriel having the Word of Water to put a dink in Gabriel's sanity. I consider myself to be reasonably well informed and I didn't know about the Water link. Anyway, my 2 cents, Brian A. Rogers (The Notorious Reverend B.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:04:07 +0200 From: "Niels C. G. Nielsen" Subject: IN> remove-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com remove-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:12:14 -0400 From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Gabriel At 22:25 -0400 7/7/99, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >If: >(1) Gabriel's Word is Fire, and >(2) Humans associate Gabriel with both water and fire, and >(3) Celestials gain power from human belief as Ethereals do, > >Then: the conflict between water and fire may be yet another contributing >factor to Gabriel's insanity. I don't see (3) as being true in IN -- worship of (=Essence transfer to) Ethereals is different from how Word-bound gain power through their Words, and I don't think there's any evidence that celestial's power varies with whether humans know of/think about them at all, unlike ethereals. It *does* vary with how humans treat their Words. Also, Gabriel is tied to Fire, not her name. There might be an ethereal "shadow" of Gabriel linked to water, more or less created by the European occult community, but I doubt it would affect her much. - ---Walter ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1278 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.