From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Jul 10 17:01:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20083 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:01:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id QAA16094 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:58:17 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:58:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199907102158.QAA16094@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1280 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, July 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1280 In this digest: Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. Re: IN> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. Re: IN> Historical Questions Re: IN> Creating Attunements ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:56:29 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements At 12:58 PM 7/9/99 -0400, you wrote: >FYI steam is a gas not a liquid. What one see's coming out of a tea kettle >is not steam. Steam is also invisible. Steam is water vapor, and water vapor is most certainly visible - most people see it every day, when they look up and see clouds lumbering across the sky. I believe you've been misinformed. :) - -EDG who admits the possibility that he's wrong, but is pretty sure that he's not. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:07:03 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements "Steam," according to my dictionary, can mean either water vapor or the accompanying mist. The vapor is an invisible gas. The mist is little particles of liquid water. It is NOT true that "water vapor is most certainly visible." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:11:34 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements At 01:07 PM 7/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >"Steam," according to my dictionary, can mean either water vapor >or the accompanying mist. >The vapor is an invisible gas. The mist is little particles of >liquid water. It is NOT true that "water vapor is most certainly >visible." Correct; I misspoke, and I apologize for any problems that may arise from anyone taking my statement (as it was) as fact. :) In most cases that I can think of, the (invisible) water vapor is accompanied by the (usually visible) mist, and therein lay the confusion. Special thanks to Earl for correcting me and not just whacking me upside the head with the dictionary itself, as some people I know are wont to do. :) >Earl - -EDG who was wrong. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:32:09 -0400 From: "Eddie" Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements Well I was a Boiler-technician in the Navy and steam is what a boiler makes thrust me its not water vapor but a true gas I don't want to go on for volumes explaining if you want further explanations mail me off list - ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Wajenberg To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 2:07 PM Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements > "Steam," according to my dictionary, can mean either water vapor > or the accompanying mist. > > The vapor is an invisible gas. The mist is little particles of > liquid water. It is NOT true that "water vapor is most certainly > visible." > > Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:35:06 -0400 From: "Yves Dorval" Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. - -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Walsh To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Friday, July 09, 1999 5:34 AM Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. >On Tue, Jul 06, 1999 at 04:17:37PM -0500, Kris Overstreet wrote: >> (2) It's a perfect frame-up. A Wind Servitor friend of the group has been >> set up for a soul-killing. Dominic wants him brought in -now-... > >The problem with this is that Dominic and/or his Triad will...find out >that (s)he's innocent. Of course, the question might be what else that >Windy has done. Hmmm Dominic has not always been the most fair of Judges.... Look at Gabriel for example or Michael... Dominic does not always care about circumstances... Jason would be angel of cookies ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:49:11 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements EDG wrote: > > Steam is water vapor, and water vapor is most certainly visible - most > people see it every day, when they look up and see clouds lumbering across > the sky. I believe you've been misinformed. :) > > -EDG > who admits the possibility that he's wrong, but is pretty sure that he's > not. I'm afraid you are this time (wrong, that is). Steam and water vapour are not quite the same thing. Steam -is- not visible, look closely at a tea kettle, if you like right at the interface between the nozzle and the air, there's nothing visible. Just beyond that, you can see the water vapour recondensing. Clouds are not steam, in fact, clouds are composed of water and ice crystals too light to fall to the ground. Steam (defined at the gaseous state of water, that's a -true- gas, mind you, according to the rate at which the molecules are moving) is not visible to the human eye. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:54:17 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. Yves Dorval wrote: > > Hmmm Dominic has not always been the most fair of Judges.... Look at > Gabriel for example or Michael... Dominic does not always care about > circumstances... Actually, according to canon, Dominic IS fair, he MUST be fair, it is - -Dissonant- for his servitors -not- to be fair. According to canon Michael -was- guilty of vainglory, but God intervened because of 'extenuating circumstances'. Also, while Dominic -started- an inquiry into Gabriel's behavior, Gabriel flipped out before any judgement could be reached. It's quite possible that Gabriel would have been found innocent once all the facts were in. I'd say, while he can be a bit overzealous in his pursuits, he -is- always fair. being a Seraph means he can see the truth of someone's guilt or innocence. Heck, call me nuts, but I like the judgemental so-and-so. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots (sometimes Daniel, Malakite of Judgement) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:44:18 -0700 (PDT) From: The Alien Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. Michael may have been 'guilty' of vainglory...but Dominic's real problem is he has a different set of rules than many others. If Jordi had Dominic's authority, how many angels would be 'guilty' of crimes against animals or nature? If Novalis had his authority and attitude, how many would be 'guilty' of excessive violence? Dominic, IMHO, has lost the proper focus of his word because of fear. Rather than helping others make their own judgements, he passes judgement upon others by his standards... Consider that it says (approx) "...without power and glory (and Michael!), Heaven's greatest battles would be lost." Even in Dominic's writeup, it reveals Dominic didn't think Michael was in danger of falling or anything, but everyone needed to be held to the Rules...just like everyone shouldn't play roleplaying games because some people might go on a homocidal rampage after playing. No one should behave as Michael did, not because Michael was in danger, but because some fringe cases might go over because of it. Oh, that's really commendable. Mind you, I have been influenced ever since playtest by the Malakite version of Dominic who occasionally made angels disappear to his rehab facility that no one ever left... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 22:39:59 -0700 From: Steel Angel Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. The Alien wrote: > > Oh, that's really commendable. Mind you, I have been influenced ever > since playtest by the Malakite version of Dominic who occasionally made > angels disappear to his rehab facility that no one ever left... > > Heh, one thing to say...Uriel was recalled, Dominic wasn't. :) Obviously > someone isn't too displeased with his performance. And remember, again, as a > Seraph, Dominic can't -lie-, which punishing someone not guilty would be. I > still say this sort of thing is a reflexive reaction to an 'authority > figure'. - - Abracax: Shedite of Riots ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:07:28 -0700 From: "Sean McCarthy" Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Steel Angel To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 10:39 PM Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. > > Heh, one thing to say...Uriel was recalled, Dominic wasn't. :) Obviously > > someone isn't too displeased with his performance. And remember, again, as a > > Seraph, Dominic can't -lie-, which punishing someone not guilty would be. I > > still say this sort of thing is a reflexive reaction to an 'authority > > figure'. > > - Abracax: Shedite of Riots > And I say if you think inability to lie involves inability to be wrong, you're silly. God, if anyone, never makes mistakes. Dominic has made mistakes. For example, when an angel named Asmodeus came back to him and said Lucifer knew what he was doing and everything would be clear in a short while. This was in Heaven, where no one could lie, speaking in High Celestial. Did Asmodeus deceive? Yes. Did Dominic make a wrong decision? Yes. Again, I stated my impressions of Dominic were very heavily formed by the playtest info on him...which was much more explicitly dark than the current.... Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:19:46 +0100 From: Hilary Sklar Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. snip >> > Seraph, Dominic can't -lie-, which punishing someone not guilty would >be. << >>And I say if you think inability to lie involves inability to be wrong,<< snip This is a purely semantic disagreement. Firstly, Dominic's word is 'Judgement' not 'Justice' and has very little to do with 20th century mortal ideas of justice which involve taking extenuating circumstances into account. Secondly, if you look at the Seraph write up in the source book you'll see that, even there, Truth is regarded as a subjective value. Seraphim tell the truth as =they= see it. Not being omniscient (which is a property confined to the Symphony and/or the Big Guy who never explicitly appears in In Nomine), it is perfectly possible for them to be truthful and erroneous at the same time. Canon would seem to imply that when Dominic makes a Judgement which is erroneous due to lack of information (for which Dominic may not be cleared), some higher power steps in to reverse it. Unless, of course, it serves that higher power's higher purposes... The really interesting thing is that a Balseraph also invariably tells the truth, as the Balseraph perceives it. Canon doesn't seem to indicate that Dominic is in danger of tripping but stranger things have happened. - - Regards Hilary hilary.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:29:08 +0100 From: Hilary Sklar Subject: Re: IN> Historical Questions At 20:14 6/7/99 -0400, you wrote: David, >According to the current draft of the IN Timeline (which will be in the >GMG), Haagenti was Prince by 1492, but Vapula is still an anonymous nobody, >if he even exists at all yet. > Thanks. This is =precisely= the Canon I was looking for. The finalised scenario may well include a Golem animated by a very attenuated version of 'the young Vapula'. As it's a Convention Scenario it needs a good fight scene and Vapula, of course, will abandon vessel as soon as things start looking nasty. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back with my thanks. Last week contained a Convention, my birthday plus an important job interview. I start the new job Monday! I'm getting nostalgic about the days when we had time to play INWO on line. - - Regards Hilary hilary.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:56:14 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Creating Attunements In a message dated 7/9/99 5:29:39 PM, EDDIE42Z@prodigy.net writes: >Well I was a Boiler-technician in the Navy and steam is what a boiler makes >thrust me its not water vapor but a true gas I don't want to go on for >volumes explaining if you want further explanations mail me off list I currently hold a boiler fireman's license, and I'd like to differ. Steam and water vapor are the same thing. Vapor *means* gas. Mist, the white stuff sometimes miscalled steam, is liquid suspended in the air. But all of this is beside the original point. Steam *would* fall under the Word of Water, because it is still dihydrogen oxide. (Oannes?) Mark ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1280 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.