From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Jul 11 20:00:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA32221 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 20:00:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id TAA30053 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:55:05 -0500 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:55:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199907120055.TAA30053@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1281 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, July 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1281 In this digest: IN> Dominic's Fairness IN> Historical Questions IN> Historical Questions IN> Enhance your Cable TV experience......Today Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness Re: IN> Historical Questions Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness IN> Re: In> Creating Attunements Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness IN> Dominic and Gabriel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:18:44 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Dominic's Fairness Just in case you're new to the list, you should probably be aware that the question of whether Dominic is a harsh but fair judge, or a biased, intolerant fanatic is one that's been kicked around over and over again. People's opinions on the matter seem to be depend mostly on their personal attitudes toward authority (with religious biases often creeping in -- zealous pagans and atheists are most likely to hate Dominic). I tend to see Dominic as harsh but fair, but capable of making mistakes. (As for my own biases, I tend to be ambivalent about authority, and I am an atheist, but not a zealous one.) >Dominic, IMHO, has lost the proper focus of his word because of fear. Rather than helping others make their own judgements, he passes judgement upon others by his standards...< It's not Dominic's job to "help others make their own judgments." It's very explicitly his job to SET the Heavenly standard and enforce it. >>>Consider that it says (approx) "...without power and glory (and Michael!), Heaven's greatest battles would be lost."<<< Yes, this is why Michael was pardoned....but it doesn't mean he was innocent, or that Dominic was wrong to bring him to trial. Dominic enforced the standards he was given...and God gave Michael a pass for pragmatic reasons, because God can do that kind of thing. (If God wants to break His own rules, Dominic isn't going to argue.) >>>Even in Dominic's writeup, it reveals Dominic didn't think Michael was in danger of falling or anything, but everyone needed to be held to the Rules...just like everyone shouldn't play roleplaying games because some people might go on a homocidal rampage after playing. No one should behave as Michael did, not because Michael was in danger, but because some fringe cases might go over because of it.<<< The RPG analogy is rather silly. In fact, Dominic had a good case (IMO): Michael is an *Archangel*. If he's going around committing the sin of Pride (which MICHAEL is certainly justified in feeling), other angels are naturally going to think he's setting an example for them....the problem being that none of them can live up to Michael's standards. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:23:10 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Historical Questions >Thanks. This is =precisely= the Canon I was looking for. The finalised scenario may well include a Golem animated by a very attenuated version of 'the young Vapula'. As it's a Convention Scenario it needs a good fight scene and Vapula, of course, will abandon vessel as soon as things start looking nasty.< Keep in mind that according to canon, golems are "constructs" (as described in FotM and the CPG), and the secret of making them is known to only a few...Vapula *might* be one of them, but it has potentially wide-ranging implications if he is. (And in FotM, it's strongly implied that Vapula *isn't* among those who know the secret.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:23:13 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Historical Questions >Thanks. This is =precisely= the Canon I was looking for. The finalised scenario may well include a Golem animated by a very attenuated version of 'the young Vapula'. As it's a Convention Scenario it needs a good fight scene and Vapula, of course, will abandon vessel as soon as things start looking nasty.< Keep in mind that according to canon, golems are "constructs" (as described in FotM and the CPG), and the secret of making them is known to only a few...Vapula *might* be one of them, but it has potentially wide-ranging implications if he is. (And in FotM, it's strongly implied that Vapula *isn't* among those who know the secret.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 99 04:27:22 +0100 From: may56@pkm1.p.lodz.pl Subject: IN> Enhance your Cable TV experience......Today ENHANCE Your Cable TV! EASY to assemble plans for only $12.00 ! GET THE MOST out of your cable TV by using this SIMPLE "Fine Tuning" device! YOU WILL HAVE GREAT RESULTS! YOU will be enjoying enhanced cable viewing in just a few days! This Cable TV FINE TUNING DEVICE will make your viewing experince MUCH MORE ENJOYABLE! There is one problem though. 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All orders WITHOUT a SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE may be DELAYED. /\ /\ /\ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:45:42 -0400 From: "Jason Terlecki" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness - -----Original Message----- From: David Edelstein To: INTERNET:in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Saturday, July 10, 1999 8:26 PM Subject: IN> Dominic's Fairness >Just in case you're new to the list, you should probably be aware that the >question of whether Dominic is a harsh but fair judge, or a biased, >intolerant fanatic is one that's been kicked around over and over again. >People's opinions on the matter seem to be depend mostly on their personal >attitudes toward authority (with religious biases often creeping in -- >zealous pagans and atheists are most likely to hate Dominic). > >I tend to see Dominic as harsh but fair, but capable of making mistakes. >(As for my own biases, I tend to be ambivalent about authority, and I am an >atheist, but not a zealous one.) You may have a point there... I myself dont dislike authority as long as their is some leeway and place for initiative. I still believe he is biased (why did he go after Gabriel and not Yves???). But one thing is for sure, NO ONE WANTS HIS JOB!!!! Jason would be angel of cookies ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:11:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: H e l p please. On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, The Alien wrote: > Dominic, IMHO, has lost the proper focus of his word because of fear. > Rather than helping others make their own judgements, he passes judgement > upon others by his standards... Whoa! Dominic *has* to pass judgement on people, at least some of the time, he can't just help people make their own judgements. He's a Seraph. It's not in his nature to let people deceive themselves. Furthermore, people acting on their own judgement can and have Fallen. > No one should behave as Michael did, not because Michael was in danger, > but because some fringe cases might go over because of it. I'd like to point out that Michael wasn't just anyone. Michael at the time was head of the Seraphim Council, and as such was held to a very high standard. He stepped down because of the trial, and God accepted his resignation and appointed Uriel. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:48:02 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Jason Terlecki wrote: > You may have a point there... I myself dont dislike authority as long as > their is some leeway and place for initiative. I still believe he is biased > (why did he go after Gabriel and not Yves???). Two words: Divine Logic. Yves made Dominic understand, in a perfectly logical manner, that Gabriel was at fault even though it was Yves' idea. Richard Gant "Hey, if everyone can pick on Dominic..." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:04:44 +0100 From: Hilary Sklar Subject: Re: IN> Historical Questions >Keep in mind that according to canon, golems are "constructs" (as described >in FotM and the CPG), and the secret of making them is known to only a >few...Vapula *might* be one of them, but it has potentially wide-ranging >implications if he is. (And in FotM, it's strongly implied that Vapula >*isn't* among those who know the secret.) > More thanks. I knew I'd seen that stuff about golems somewhere and spent most of an afternoon looking everywhere except FotM. I suspect my golem might end up being a bit uncanonical . I never intended to have it =made= by any celestial. It just seemed to be the kind of thing which might interest the young Vapula. As this is intended to be a tournament scenario, I don't want to reveal any more on list. Happy to discuss in private with anyone interested, provided they won't be in Ireland for GaelCon. - - Regards Hilary hilary.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:00:39 -0400 From: "Yves Dorval" Subject: Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness - -----Original Message----- From: gantr@NKU.EDU To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 12:53 AM Subject: Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness >Two words: Divine Logic. Yves made Dominic understand, in a perfectly >logical manner, that Gabriel was at fault even though it was Yves' idea. Then why did Yves try to defend her? Jason woudl be angel of cookies ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:38:54 +0000 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness Yves Dorval wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: gantr@NKU.EDU > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 12:53 AM > Subject: Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness > > >Two words: Divine Logic. Yves made Dominic understand, in a perfectly > >logical manner, that Gabriel was at fault even though it was Yves' idea. > > Then why did Yves try to defend her? Because he used Divine Logic *before* Dominic went after Gabriel? IMHO, Yves used DL to explain to Dominic that he, Yves was not at fault. But Dominic, due to his partisan backing of Christianity, misunderstood. S/He didn't understand that all was going according to the Ineffable One's plan [God or Yves, take your pick], and there *was* no fault to be found; so S/He went looking for a scapegoat and found.... Gabriel. Only *after* Gabriel's Huffy Exit did Yves tell Dominic point-blank, as he should have done earlier, if he wasn't so in love with indirect action and implication, that this Inquiry was screwing up a plan of [allegedly] The Most High, so back off and leave Gabriel *alone*! Hands Off! All of the preceding, of course, presumes that inducing Gabrielle's Madness was accidental and not the deliberate result of some obscure Yvesian mystery-in-a-riddle-wrapped-in-an-enigma Machiavellian [sp?] machination of the AA of Destiny, which is not an entirely safe presumption. Tom Timberlake, Cadre Cherub of Heaven - -- "Not a dog... Not a wolf... All he knows is what he is _not_ ... If only he could see what he _is_." -Boris, "Balto" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:05:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Re: In> Creating Attunements > From: MarkDEddy@aol.com > > I currently hold a boiler fireman's license, and I'd like to differ. Steam > and water vapor are the same thing. Vapor *means* gas. Mist, the white stuff > sometimes miscalled steam, is liquid suspended in the air. > > But all of this is beside the original point. Steam *would* fall under the > Word of Water, because it is still dihydrogen oxide. (Oannes?) But Steam Technology might still fall under Janus because it involves steam (water in gaseous form) moving rapidly due to high pressure providing the kinetic engergy for mechanisms to move. In other words, rapidly moving gas making machines go. Sounds like Wind to me. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:53:20 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Dominic's Fairness On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Yves Dorval wrote: > >Two words: Divine Logic. Yves made Dominic understand, in a perfectly > >logical manner, that Gabriel was at fault even though it was Yves' idea. > > Then why did Yves try to defend her? Because Yves is an inscrutable manipulator, trying to sow dissension in Heaven? :) Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:54:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Dominic and Gabriel On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Jason Terlecki wrote: > I still believe he is biased (why did he go after Gabriel and not > Yves???). Several possibilities: 1) Dominic originally went after both. Yves was easily findable, in an office in his Library, and his answers to Dominic's questions may or may not have fully satisfied Dominic, but convinced Dominic that Yves believed he had been doing God's will. This only took one meeting and neither wanted to talk about it. When Dominic looked for Gabriel to check that *she* also believed she was doing God's will (that being something only Gabriel could tell him), she stormed out of Heaven. 2) Dominic was going to Inquisit both, but Yves turned up in his office to answer questions before Dominic finished filling out the paperwork. Consequently, Yves was never technically accused, even though Dominic was just as suspicious of / even more suspicious of Yves than of Gabriel. 3) Yves used Divine Logic to convince Dominic he wasn't at fault, but Gabriel was inadvertantly not protected. Alternatively, Dominic refused to clear anyone of suspicion without at least an interview. 4) Yves used Divine Logic to convince Dominic that he wasn't at fault *and Gabriel was*. 5) Dominic had been worried about Gabriel's instability for centuries and just waiting for a legal basis to check up on her sanity. 6) Dominic found out about Gabriel's involvement first; after all, she was the Archangel openly involved. He didn't *know* Yves was involved until Yves came to talk to him, because Gabriel knew by prophecy that Dominic would come for a chat with her and cleared out ahead of time. 7) It's all a centuries-long plot between Dominic, Yves, and Gabriel to convince the Princes that Gabriel is insane and vulnerable. Gabriel foresaw that she'd have a good chance of convincing Belial to come out and play because he thought she had weakened. Yves's view of destiny showed him the same thing. Dominic was convinced to play along when Gabriel promised him copies of *all* her prophecies for his files. 8) If I had cause to decide, I think I'd go with a blend of #2 and #5. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1281 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.