From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 20 10:27:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20085 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:27:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id KAA14680 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:23:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:23:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199907201523.KAA14680@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1287 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 20 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1287 In this digest: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list Re: IN> Spam on the IN list Re: IN> Spam on the IN list Re: IN> Spam on the IN list Re: IN> Spam on the IN list Re: IN> Spam on the IN list IN> Fwd: Looking for a game in the East Bay Re: IN> And The Bands Played On: Faust Re: IN> Spam on the IN list IN> experience points? IN> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:06:42 PDT Re: IN> experience points? Re: IN> experience points? Re: IN> experience points? IN> Re: IN- Spam on the IN list IN> Fwd: Spam on the IN list Re: IN> Spam on the IN list IN> And The Bands Played On: Faustim Errata Re: IN> experience points? Re: IN> Re: IN- Spam on the IN list IN> Be careful with those spam filters IN> Spam on the IN list IN> Faust & the Faustim Re: IN> Spam on the IN list IN> Correction Re: IN> Faust & the Faustim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:30:36 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list In a message dated 7/19/99 6:13:29 AM, earlw@mc.com writes: >I'd sure like to see the spam gone, but what's the "PITA factor" >David mentions? > >Earl > "Pain in the *ahem*..." The mailing list spam filters that I know of are quite labor-intensive for the list administrator. (Personal review for approximately 25% of the mail traffic, IIRC) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:40:26 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list At 10:30 AM 7/19/99 EDT, you wrote: >The mailing list spam filters that I know of are quite labor-intensive for >the list administrator. (Personal review for approximately 25% of the mail >traffic, IIRC) A much simpler way to do it is to reject all mail from a non-subscribed address - but that carries its own PITA factor, because if your ISP suddenly decides to tack on an IP number instead of a domain name, or vice versa, your email will bounce. - -EDG I'm all in favor of it, especially once I get my static IP set up. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:54:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > The mailing list spam filters that I know of are quite labor-intensive for > the list administrator. (Personal review for approximately 25% of the mail > traffic, IIRC) Hm? The standard method I know of automatically sends through anything which comes from anybody subscribed to the list and automatically bounces everything else. The nuisance factor hits not the administrator but the users (like me) who are subscribed at an address that isn't their From address. I'm in favor of the change regardless, provided we use domain munging, so that if X@someplace.com is subscribed, email from X@somemachine.someplace.com goes through without bouncing. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:03:24 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list In a message dated 7/19/99 7:54:56 AM, ebartley@enteract.com writes: >On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > >> The mailing list spam filters that I know of are quite labor-intensive >for >> the list administrator. (Personal review for approximately 25% of the >mail >> traffic, IIRC) > >Hm? The standard method I know of automatically sends through anything >which comes from anybody subscribed to the list and automatically bounces >everything else. The nuisance factor hits not the administrator but the >users (like me) who are subscribed at an address that isn't their From >address. I'm in favor of the change regardless, provided we use domain >munging, so that if X@someplace.com is subscribed, email from >X@somemachine.someplace.com goes through without bouncing. > > Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com > The version I'm used to, rather than a simple bounce, any 'suspicious' emails are spooled to the listadmin for final disposal. This includes oversized email from subscribers as well as mail from unsubscribed addresses, as well as a few other things. One of the points to remember is that (unless it's been changed in the last few months) this list has a direct link on the In Nomine web page.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:00:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list >I don't know how they found us, Spam-bots -- webcrawlers that find mailto's, or even just email addresses on pages. I get a lot to my io.com account because it's on so many SJGames pages. >Elizabeth, consider this a petition to implement that subscriber-filtered >option you mentioned a while ago. I know it will increase the PITA factor, >but I think it's getting to the point that it's necessary. Okay, here's the deal. If I institute that, you will have _ONE_ address that you can send to the list from. If your ISP tends to tack a machine name onto your From in obscure ways (as many universities do!), the message will bounce. To me. Also, subscribers who get a random machine name tacked on, will have to send _from that random machine name_. E.g.: you're subscribed as foo@bar.edu. bar.edu has several machines: Asmodeus, Vapula, and Lucifer. If your from field happens to try to say your message is from foo@lucifer.bar.edu, the message will bounce to the admin. (Hi.) Of course, you can subscribe with all your usual machine names, so you can send from any of them -- whereupon you get that many copies of each message. There _may_ be a way to fix it, but I'd have to talk to Kira, and it would require moving the list elsewhere. (The current way to turn "subscribers-only can send to the list" on and off doesn't have "domain munging" -- you're either at the _exact_ address, or you're bounced.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:59:24 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list At 7:02 AM -0400 7/18/99, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>I'm just wondering -- when did the spammers find us? And is there >anything >we can do about it?<<< > >I don't know how they found us, but YE GODS is it getting bad! Lately the >digests contain more spam than IN posts, and if I see that goddamn cable TV >decoder spam one more time... It's probably quite simple. Spammers haven't been standing still in developing their bag of tricks. They're not just mining UseNet, they've realized that they can get large captive audiences by mining web sites for referents to mailing lists. You might be able to find our spammers by checking recent subscribe messages, but they probably did not leave that transparent a trail. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:17:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: Looking for a game in the East Bay >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /\b s u b s c r i b e\b/i at line 7 [Note which word I spelled out when forwarding this bounce...] [--Beth, List admin] >Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:40:40 -0700 >From: David Gdula >Subject: Looking for a game in the East Bay > >Dear List s u b s c r i b e r s, > >My name is Dave and I love In Nomine. I just moved to the west coast, SF >Bay area near San Jose, SF, Oakland ...and I am looking for an In Nomine >group to join. I am a mature professional who loves role-playing. I >started a campaign with some friends back east, then had to move. I >don't subscribe to the list (afraid of my mailbox exploding), but please >respond to: > >DuDawei@hotmail.com or >dgdula@sunspot.nci.nih.gov > >If you don't have room in your game, please pass this message onto >someone who may. Thanks alot! > >Dave > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:12:37 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> And The Bands Played On: Faust At 11:33 PM -0500 7/18/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote: > > > Anyway, I hope you all like it. It's the first time I've made a >Superior for In Nomine and I tried hard to come up with choir attunements >appropriate to his Word. I'm not sure whether some are too strong or too >weak. If any one has any alternate suggestions I'd like to hear them. > > > >Malakim > >Malakim of Knowledge have knowledge of strengths and weaknesses. They may >make a perception roll and find either a weakness in their subject's >fighting style (penalizing a subject's dodge by the CD) or a weakness in >their mind/body/soul (adding the CD to the CD of an attack.) This also >works with Songs and offensive Attunements, and can be applied to objects >as well as beings. > This one might be the only real problem. Faust might not be clearly good or evil, but the InNomine plolarity is more along the selfless-selfish axis. And on that scale, he still very much in the selfish zone. More flexible choirs might be able to work with Faust, especially desperate Outcast, but Malakim is a real stretch. Among other things it would mean putting aside one of the primary two Oaths that make the essence of a Malakim, the one about not suffering a demon to live on a too frequent basis. About the only Malakim I could see in this role might be those handful that have Outcasted themselves long before Armageddon, those last remaing Virtues who once served Raphael. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:22:08 -0400 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list At 12:00 PM -0400 7/19/99, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Okay, here's the deal. If I institute that, you will have _ONE_ address >that you can send to the list from. If your ISP tends to tack a machine >name onto your From in obscure ways (as many universities do!), the >message will bounce. > Some people are probably going to wind up being left out, i.e. those who use hotmail or the like. On the Double Exposure Avatar lists, I believe are filtering is put in on the From: header, the name, address list. The name and address are put on for each new subscriber and mail not matching it is bounced back totally. So far it seems to have totally plugged in the spam dike without cutting off our webmail users. This might involve manually changing the filter list each time a new person signs on, I'd have to check with our listadmin on that. If you'd like I'll email his address to you privately. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:01:36 -0700 From: darkelf Subject: IN> experience points? Forgive what is probably a silly question...but how does one award XP in IN? Where are the blessed rules in the rule book? I gotta find the reference before my players do... Thanks. Kat Cherub of Creation - -- Consider: the purpose of your life may be to serve as an example to someone else. "I'll be okay as long as no one tries to interact with me in any way." -- Daria ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:08:11 -0500 From: "Du Dawei" Subject: IN> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:06:42 PDT Dear List subscribers, My name is Dave and I love In Nomine. I just moved to the west coast, SF Bay area near San Jose, SF, Oakland ...and I am looking for an In Nomine group to join. I am a mature professional who loves role- playing and IN in particular. I started a campaign with some friends back east, then had to move. If you have room for a new player, please respond to: DuDawei@hotmail.com If you don't have room in your game, please pass this message onto someone who may. Thanks alot! Dave _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:16:11 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> experience points? darkelf wrote: > > Forgive what is probably a silly question...but how does one award XP in > IN? Where are the blessed rules in the rule book? > > I gotta find the reference before my players do... Typically, about 2-3 per session. Or more, if you want the players to get more powerful fast. One thing, though - things like Attunements and extra Forces are hard to get. You'll often have players sitting around with a dozen XP or more, just waiting for an opportunity to spend them. (At least I do.) Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:15:16 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> experience points? At 11:01 AM 7/19/99 -0700, you wrote: >Forgive what is probably a silly question...but how does one award XP in >IN? Where are the blessed rules in the rule book? >I gotta find the reference before my players do... Check out p. 202 in the main rulebook. More guidelines will be coming in the Game Master's Guide. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:25:21 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> experience points? At 11:01 AM -0700 7/19/99, darkelf wrote: >Forgive what is probably a silly question...but how does one award XP in >IN? Where are the blessed rules in the rule book? p. 202 in the main book, but you may want to check the XP suggestions in the GMG (in playtest on Pyramid now!), for more detail. We generally find that 1-2 are plenty per session (even .5 now and again!), with maybe 2-4 at the end of an adventure-arc after we've stomped off the loose ends. The GM also occasionally gives skill-boosts from Divine Interventions on appropriate rolls -- the Ofanite got Area Knowledge/1 (Boston), for instance, after getting a 111 on an area-knowledge resonance roll. I'll wax more eloquent on this some other time... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:13:00 PDT From: "Micheal Knight" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Spam on the IN list > Some people are probably going to wind up being left out, i.e. >those who use hotmail or the like. On the Double Exposure Avatar >lists, I believe are filtering is put in on the From: header, the >name, address list. The name and address are put on for each new >subscriber and mail not matching it is bounced back totally. So far >it seems to have totally plugged in the spam dike without cutting off >our webmail users. This might involve manually changing the filter >list each time a new person signs on, I'd have to check with our >listadmin on that. If you'd like I'll email his address to you >privately. I sort of >would< like to be able to continue posting, if it's possible. *rueful grin* Micheal _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:25:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: Spam on the IN list Watch the s u b s c r i b e word! >X-Sender: neel@emerald.cswv.com >Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:08:38 -0400 >From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) >Subject: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list > >Earl Wajenberg >> >>I'd sure like to see the spam gone, but what's the "PITA factor" >>David mentions? > >For example, I don't currently s u b s c r i b e to the IN list. Instead, >I read the archives and post to the list by sending email to it. >If I had to s u b s c r i b e to post, then I couldn't post without having >to accept entries into my inbox. I would find this somewhat >annoying. > > > >-- >Neel Krishnaswami >neelk@cswv.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:21:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list How about a simpler solution: set the list moderated and share the moderation password with everyone on the list? Hm. *That* may not be so wonderful; I just checked the documentation and it says that you're supposed to add an extra line in your header to do that. (Are you sure you can't munge the domain? It ought to be a matter of setting the configuration file to include "mungedomain = yes". Or has that been changed in more recent versions of Majordomo?) Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:12:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> And The Bands Played On: Faustim Errata CD results 2, 4, and 6 also the current number of hits in the appropriate realms Faustim are adaptable but not infinitely malleable. The number of abilities they are able to emulate at the same time is limited to their Forces. They can choose to prematurely let an ability fade in order to emulate a new one. If a Faustim absolutely needs to rid itself of a temporary discord before it fades away naturally they can, but the effort inflicts one point of dissonance due to the sudden, violent change in his personal Symphony. Faustim of Knowledge who emulate a choir or band resonance are also bound by the dissonance conditions which accompany it. Those who emulate a Malakim's resonance are bound by that Malakim's oaths, as they are entwined with his resonance. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:10:17 +0100 From: Hilary Sklar Subject: Re: IN> experience points? >We generally find that 1-2 are plenty per session (even .5 now and again!), >with maybe 2-4 at the end of an adventure-arc after we've stomped off >the loose ends. Interesting.... Somewhat less that the rule book suggests, and far more to my liking. I'd been considering posting on this subject. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:56:55 +0100 From: Hilary Sklar Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Spam on the IN list Beth, Both Hilary and I (Ashley) post from this computer and account. We use Eudora Pro, and have the dominant personality plus our seperate ones for individual use. We are assuming the result of what is being proposed is going to prevent us mailing the list individually unless we are prepared to get multiple copies of every message on the list (which to be honest we aren't). Assuming I am right, I would ask that folks check who posted rather than just assuming it is from Hilary. This has caused problems in the past usually when I say something contentious and H gets the backlash. If on the other hand there is a way around the problem that I have not thought of please let me know. Ashley (waiting to see how many reply with ......Hilary Sklar wrote.....) Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:55:10 PDT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Be careful with those spam filters I am against spam, but I wish to point out that many of the "spam filters" simply refuse to accept certain e-mail providers which they (often correctly) identify with a high spam factor. The provider I use (Hotmail) is sometimes one of these, and there are people and places I cannot reach because of this. (For example, Earl Wajenberg, I could not discuss your "Bonded Malakim" idea in private e-mail because my mail to you kept bouncing with a message saying "Domain refused," which is apparently e-mail for "We don't want to talk to you because you use a provider that sends a lot of spam.") So if the list administrator decides on a filter, please try to ensure that it doesn't arbitrarily block people from receiving the mailing list. Thank you. Janet Anderson _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:58:26 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Spam on the IN list >>>I'd sure like to see the spam gone, but what's the "PITA factor" David mentions?<<< Pain In The Ass. ;) It will increase Elizabeth's admin chores. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:52:57 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> Faust & the Faustim Interesting writeup on these. Speaking for myself, I prefer campaigns that are closer to Canon... but I imagine Faust could be worked into one without too much difficulty. Certainly the idea of another (formerly) human Superior is interesting. I'm not too wild about the idea that Faust is more or less neutral, though. The neat thing about IN (IMO) is that it draws pretty clear-cut lines between the sides. Yah, there are lots of grey areas, but the whole point of the game is Good vs. Evil. This is what makes it unique and interesting, at least for me. It might work better if Faust, like Lilith, stays a somewhat mysterious figure. The Faustim are pretty keen, but I have a quibble; they don't seem like angels of "knowledge" at all. Imitation is a nifty talent,but how does it relate to their master's Word? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:53:33 +0100 From: Hilary Sklar Subject: Re: IN> Spam on the IN list From my point of view the IN List performs various functions. It is entirely possible that cutting out the spam might restrict some of these. A discussion area for us. This shouldn't be effected too badly. I think most members will be able to find a solution. If there are problems it comes down to a choice, find a way to stay on the list or not. A help area for gamers with questions about IN. This could suffer badly. I think IN does need support and a help forum for players and not all of those might be willing to join a list. For someone new to IN joining the official list could be a bit daunting, (it's a bit like the new guy walking into the office for the first time and encountering a whole room full of supposed experts). In my opinion the quality of the list is dependant on the number of subscribers. The more the merrier. As access becomes more restrictive the number of potential subscribers will be reduced, I am far from certain this is desirable. Ultimately spam may just be part of life. I throw junk mail in the bin, I through spam in the bin. Maybe spam is something we simply have to tolerate. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 06:01:36 PDT From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Correction What I meant to say was that using an overenthusiastic spam filter would mean I couldn't *post* to the list. (I could still receive and read it.) Janet Anderson _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:21:24 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Faust & the Faustim In a message dated 7/19/99 8:57:31 PM, douglas.muir@yale.edu writes: >Interesting writeup on these. Speaking for myself, I prefer campaigns that >are closer to Canon... but I imagine Faust could be worked into one without >too much difficulty. Certainly the idea of another (formerly) human >Superior is interesting. > I'm not so sure. The Bright Victory/Grey Aftermath campaign is the only place I could see something like what happened with Faust (in the background) actually being pulled off. Only if the Princes are mostly defeated would they allow a mortal to gain that much power. (In fact, Lilith was made Prince(ss) just after the massive defeat of the Fall...) >I'm not too wild about the idea that Faust is more or less neutral, though. >The neat thing about IN (IMO) is that it draws pretty clear-cut lines >between the sides. Yah, there are lots of gray areas, but the whole point >of the game is Good vs. Evil. This is what makes it unique and >interesting, at least for me. It might work better if Faust, like Lilith, >stays a somewhat mysterious figure. > Again, it is the campaign setup that makes this work. (IMHO) >The Faustim are pretty keen, but I have a quibble; they don't seem like >angels of "knowledge" at all. Imitation is a nifty talent, but how does >it relate to their master's Word? > > I suppose a counter-question would be how the Need/Geas attunement relates to Freedom. >Doug M. > Mark (feeling slightly cryptic...) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1287 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.