From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 27 13:37:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17392 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:37:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id NAA26929 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:34:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:34:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199907271834.NAA26929@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1292 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1292 In this digest: IN> A Lurker Speaks Out... Re: IN> A Lurker Speaks Out... IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> A Lurker Speaks Out... Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereals IN> Re: IN- Ethereals Re: IN> A Lurker Speaks Out... Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereals ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:52:57 PDT From: "Luke Stargazer" Subject: IN> A Lurker Speaks Out... Greetings all! This is the first message I have posted to this list, although I have been subscribed for a while and have read a great amount of the List Archives before then. I don't really have any questions about the game (having only "found it" in the last three months or so and only played three times), as yet (since most of what I need to know I look up in the index) However, I am a professional graphic artist and have created a couple of (I think) really spiffy Photoshop creations along the In Nomine theme. I'm not sure on the protocol regarding sending mass attachments to the list, which is why I didn't just post them now. What I'm getting at: is anyone intrested in seeing my work? My pride and joy is a pretty Mercurian in Physical and Corporeal forms. It's completly "Rated G" stuff, too, nothing crude or off-color (I'm saving *that* for my Demons, coming soon!) Being fairly ignorant of HTML programming, I'd also like to find a Net Home for these goodies, either in the In Nomine Collection or elsewhere. Hoping for a good response, Luke Stargazer Mercurian of Creation in Service to Lightning _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:47:25 -0400 From: EDG Subject: Re: IN> A Lurker Speaks Out... At 04:52 PM 7/26/99 PDT, you wrote: >However, I am a professional graphic artist and have created a couple of (I >think) really spiffy Photoshop creations along the In Nomine theme. I'm not >sure on the protocol regarding sending mass attachments to the list, which >is why I didn't just post them now. If I'm not mistaken, the general protocol regarding sending mass attachments to the list is "Don't do it, on pain of whatever Beth feels like dropping on your head." It's really a pretty bad idea. :) As you note below, I'd suggest going with a web page; I'll speak on the INC after your next paragraph... >What I'm getting at: is anyone intrested in seeing my work? My pride and joy >is a pretty Mercurian in Physical and Corporeal forms. It's completly "Rated >G" stuff, too, nothing crude or off-color (I'm saving *that* for my Demons, >coming soon!) Being fairly ignorant of HTML programming, I'd also like to >find a Net Home for these goodies, either in the In Nomine Collection or >elsewhere. I'd like to see these; I've got some web space I could provide (no, not on the In Nomine official page, guys :P) if you want to put them up there (email me privately and we'll work it out. I might start a collection. :) If you want to submit them to the INC, I believe Eslin is the person in charge of those now; you can reach her at eslin@pyramid.sjgames.com. (There's no submission information on the INC at the moment - at least, none that I can find... *sigh*) Anyway; like I said, contact me privately if you're interested in the webspace (anthoch@earlham.edu). - -EDG switching INlist addresses in moments. :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 03:05:57 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: IN> Ethereals Hi, Summer here and I can't play in any IN Nomine games so I've been looking at designing some new chars for the normal game I play in (Yes - and having a life too - but that's a little OT :) ) and looking over the books in detail made me come up with a couple of questions. I'd been looking into an Ethereal character - since Ethereals gain 1 Essence a day ( at Midnight IIRC) some as everyone else - what exactly is this fading problem? I could see the Ethereal Realms requiring an Essence expenditure to retain their shape - maybe - but what is the problem for the individual Ethereal? This is well into the vague Canon stuff - so I don't expect complete answers naturally - Beth and CO. get paid for that stuff (and very deservedly too - I don't like coming across as one of those people who wants to avoid buying any books) - but since our Game is very non-Canon anyway - I'd just like to hear some theories if anyone has them. Thanks. Oh - and any thoughts on Ethereals and Words? Thanks again. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) Kafziel, Ofanim of Light, Master of the Realms of Night :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:14:47 EDT From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals In a message dated 7/26/99 10:07:07 PM, ngm1@st-andrews.ac.uk writes: <> One essence a day really isn't enough to do much. I mean without any real other source of essence they are limited to what they can do, including making a new vessel to go to earth to get more essence. Beyond that it seems that ethereals are very dependent on belief of humans, as they are born from dreams and belief. I would think that if people stopped believing in a certain type of ethereal (such as goblins or something like that) and then even stopped having stories about them so that no one knew what a goblin was that unbelief would siphon essence away from the ethereal in question, or at very least they would stop regenerating essence, because their connection to the Symphony which seems to be dependent on humanity ceases to exist. As for ethereals and Words I don't think they can be tied to a word in the way a celestial is, as an embodiement of the entire Word, I would think that an ethereal that was a god of war or something would be a manifestation of that cultures take on war. It would be much narrower than a celestials actuall Word, while they may have a lot in common with a celestial with a Word overlapping the idea that the ethereal was born from they would not have a Word. However if Lucifer managed to give a human a Word than its probably not impossible to give an ethereal a Word. Timothy, Angel of Rambling ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 1999 22:27:07 -0500 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals The way I would handle it would be something like this: PC Ethereals should be either well-known fictional characters, or members of a "servitor race" / minor deities of a pagan pantheon which is still well-known, if not actually still worshipped (valkyries, satyrs, nymphs, banshees, etc. would be appropriate, for example). PC Ethereals should be based on 7 Forces. Most Ethereals in my games would be weaker than this. PC Ethereals do not have any problem with (nor derive any benefit from) variations in human belief over the timescales involved in a normal campaign. PC Ethereals can buy unique attunements for 10 character points, subject to GM approval/modification. They can buy unique rites for 3 character points each. PC Ethereals are either "in service to" Beleth, or Renegade (the Diabolicals don't want Ethereals on Earth acting as free agents). Ethereals cannot be Wordbound, but all Ethereals tend to develop "themes" to their attunements. YMMV. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:54:21 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> A Lurker Speaks Out... - ----- Original Message ----- From: Luke Stargazer > > What I'm getting at: is anyone intrested in seeing my work? I'd like to see it, so feel free to send any drawings you wish. *s* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 05:02:20 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals First off - thanks for the reply. :) On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 SdshowTim@aol.com wrote: > > One essence a day really isn't enough to do much. I mean without any real > other source of essence they are limited to what they can do, including > making a new vessel to go to earth to get more essence. They can get Rites - and everyone else has that problem too - and that making vessels ability is /nice/. Doesn't make up for the lack of support from a Superior - but definitely helps survival chances. > Beyond that it seems that ethereals are very dependent on belief of humans, > as they are born from dreams and belief. I would think that if people > stopped believing in a certain type of ethereal (such as goblins or something > like that) and then even stopped having stories about them so that no one > knew what a goblin was that unbelief would siphon essence away from the > ethereal in question, or at very least they would stop regenerating essence, > because their connection to the Symphony which seems to be dependent on > humanity ceases to exist. Hmm - brings up another point - I seem to remember stuff about some Ethererals existing pre-Humanity - or this is this Webstuff rather than Canon? I was kind of looking to see at what point that would become a problem to the Ethereal - and what kind of thoughts about the Ethereal are useful for Ethereal survival - is Raiden being helped by Mortal Kombat (and possibly changed?) - what about Nike? Or is it just actual worship? Given the stuff about Nybbas and the kami it would seem to be just directed thought? And if it is good - then how good - surely not all Mortal Kombat fans with the Soul Link Discord (Larry would have had a fit by now if so :) ) - but maybe a kind of group thing - sort of like the Essence flow from a Tether? But not as good. Er... Stopping regenerating Essence would certainly be very inconvient - but the various Celestial Discords hamper you gaining Essence - would lack of Essence inevitably lead to cease to exist for Ethereals - and therefore would even temporalily being on zero Essence be a bad thing for an Ethereal? > As for ethereals and Words I don't think they can be tied to a word in the > way a celestial is, as an embodiement of the entire Word, I would think that > an ethereal that was a god of war or something would be a manifestation of > that cultures take on war. It would be much narrower than a celestials > actuall Word, while they may have a lot in common with a celestial with a > Word overlapping the idea that the ethereal was born from they would not have > a Word. > However if Lucifer managed to give a human a Word than its probably not > impossible to give an ethereal a Word. > Also - what about those Divine Figures who were basically the personification of a Word? The Muses are an example - and the various Virtues.... I was actually thinking more of what kind of relationship there would be between the various God/desses of War - and Michael - and to a lesser extent Ba'al - not in the political sense. This particularly applies to the modern day when people can lump all the various cultures gods into achetypal groups and can have the concept of the God of War taking elements from each - what effect would this universal archetype have on Michael? Relating to some other posts about Gabriel and the Fire/Water issue - particuarly given the intuitive level on which Gabriel seems to operate a lot of the time - how would She feel about all the various Fire spirits in the Marches. That last was a bit too rambling I think - but I can't work out how to clarify what I mean - I hope you can follow at least some of my point - I'm sure I had one. Oh yeah - and I'm sure Lucifer could give an Ethereal a Word if He wanted to - very unlikely but it just might fit in a plan somewhere :) > Timothy, Angel of Rambling Yay - can I have one of your Rites please? - I'd use it a lot :) Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:19:50 EDT From: SdshowTim@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals In a message dated 7/27/99 12:03:25 AM, ngm1@st-andrews.ac.uk writes: <> Most of the ethereal rites seem to be worshiper based, and without a superior they can't get new rites, unless they make friends with a word bound celestial willing to give an ethereal rites which probably wouldn't sit well with most superiors <> I don't remember, but that brings up something else do the dreams and beliefs of celestials create/fuel ethereals (hmmm, that sounds like a story seed. . . ) It seems to be heavily implied that the ethereal is predominently a realm of belief, so imagine without some sentient being believing there would be no ethereal I wouldn't think that image shifts would really matter much, i don't think many individuals who play mortal kombat or watch Xena believe in Raiden or Ares (at least as presented there). Without a stream of essence from that source it probably wouldn't effect them, so i suppose if some nut jobs believed in basterdized images as existing then they could take the essence from there if they wanted to become those images (that would be for gods, critters that are fantasies probably pop in and out of existance as interest focuses on them, so there probably was a Freddy and Jason wandering around out there in the marchs, maybe even now, hungry for essence, thirsting for blood, but i digress) as for the muses and virtues, their still the cultural concept, an angel with a word is not just every cultures concept but God's concept, the Symphony's concept (just as demonic Words are the demon's in questions concept, the hell with everyone else) and for the political part i suppose it would depend how closely the cultures concept matchs the Symphonys or the demons Timothy, Angel of Rambling (whose rites are available to all who ask) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 05:26:29 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals Thanks for the reply - and while I can quite happily accept these if I was playing in your game chances are I won't be - and these are the changes I would make for my game - with reasons given. On 26 Jul 1999, Jason F. McBrayer wrote: > The way I would handle it would be something like this: > > > PC Ethereals should be either well-known fictional characters, or > members of a "servitor race" / minor deities of a pagan pantheon > which is still well-known, if not actually still worshipped > (valkyries, satyrs, nymphs, banshees, etc. would be appropriate, for > example). > All above fine - I would also add in the possibility of some other modern stuff - like say the Greys - or some of the other popular SF stuff that has seeped into mainstream (ish?) culture that would have had enough influence to have a reflection in the Marches. The human mind continues its creative processes and this should be reflected in the Marches. New dreams... > PC Ethereals should be based on 7 Forces. Most Ethereals in my games > would be weaker than this. PC Ethereals do not have any problem with > (nor derive any benefit from) variations in human belief over the > timescales involved in a normal campaign. > I'd say 9 - PC Demons get a lift above the rest of the Horde - pretty much for play balance as far as I can see - and given the system for working out character points 2 Forces makes a lot of difference - your main problem as an Ethereal is your lack of support - just getting new Songs is a major problem - plus the IN Nomine system breaks down at the low end and therefore I try and avoid it. I normally support PCs not having to be balanced and say Rping is for fun and worrying about play balance is generally powergaming in disguise - but I also like long term characters I can keep playing for ages and gradually build up a detailed personality - and I can see Human PC lifespan due to this whole mortality when their body gets shot to pieces thing really making that awkward. Ethereals at least have a Vessel level which helps a lot in HP but Trauma is a much bigger problem for them - so they balance out with Humans. Yes you can defend against all this by saying Celestials are meant to be the main focus of the game in general - but I'd say the PC's are the focus of a game and a GM should arrange ways so that things balance out somehow - yes Celestials have the raw power on their character sheet - but the Human knows something useful etc. The same applies to Ethereals to an extent. On the other hand it is nice medium between Human at 5/6 and Celestial 9 - so maybe I wouldn't change it. > PC Ethereals can buy unique attunements for 10 character points, > subject to GM approval/modification. They can buy unique rites for 3 > character points each. > Yep. > PC Ethereals are either "in service to" Beleth, or Renegade (the > Diabolicals don't want Ethereals on Earth acting as free agents). > I'd also see certain Archangels covertly employing some Ethereals - Michael springs to mind, as does Yves given the comment about certain of the Old Gods carrying heavy Destinies - and possibly Blandine too. Out of sight of Lawrence of course. Renegade in most cases only if noticed - all the problems of spotting a Celestial in a Vessel apply to Ethereals too pretty much. > Ethereals cannot be Wordbound, but all Ethereals tend to develop > "themes" to their attunements. > > As I mentioned in my previous post I don't think they can inherently not be Wordbound - I'd just say none are. Morningstar tends to well cheat after all. Themes though yes. For anyone using the non-Canon (but maybe future-Canon?) Word Forces - how about it? And if not how would you deal with the statments about some Ethereals being almost equal in power to a minor Superior/major Wordbound - - in what sense is their power equal? The biggest change I would make I left to last - I like the idea of changing human beliefs being a major issue for Ethereals in general and especially PCs - I would imagine most PC Ethereals to spend a fair amouant of their time plotting to get mortal servants and working out who can be trusted with precious Soul Links - precious also because they have to work out how to get them. Therefore I'd also like some penalities for failing to have mortal connections - and some systems behind this - any suggestions? > YMMV. > -- Only a little bit :) Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) Kafziel, Ofanim of Light, Master of the Realms of Night :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 05:41:09 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 SdshowTim@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/27/99 12:03:25 AM, ngm1@st-andrews.ac.uk writes: > > < making vessels ability is /nice/. Doesn't make up for the lack of support > from a Superior - but definitely helps survival chances. > >> > > Most of the ethereal rites seem to be worshiper based, and without a superior > they can't get new rites, unless they make friends with a word bound > celestial willing to give an ethereal rites which probably wouldn't sit well > with most superiors The impression I got was that Ethereals had lots of the own Rites - which sits well the idea mentioned of Ethereals getting the option same as Mummies of buying Rites at Char gen for 3 pts. It Saminga's mortal pawns can come up with their own Rites then Ethereals with a lot more incentive - - and more power in the earlier period to research them - could too. But this depends on how you interpret The Marches (as in Revelations Book II) - - and much of it is a little wobbly on the details - so ... But the variety of worship Rites indicates to me a variety of Rites available to Ethereals in general based on their 'Theme'. > > < Ethererals existing pre-Humanity - or this is this Webstuff rather than > Canon?>> > > I don't remember, but that brings up something else do the dreams and beliefs > of celestials create/fuel ethereals (hmmm, that sounds like a story seed. . . > ) Seeing some of the Ethereals accidently created by various Superiors could be interesting... BUT Celestials don't have their own Dreamscapes so probably not in general - but I'd say a Superior wandering about the Marches could create sort of Ethereal Echoes. > It seems to be heavily implied that the ethereal is predominently a realm of > belief, so imagine without some sentient being believing there would be no > ethereal > I was thinking direct creation by God/Eli possibly? > I wouldn't think that image shifts would really matter much, i don't think > many individuals who play mortal kombat or watch Xena believe in Raiden or > Ares (at least as presented there). Brings it back to my earlier question - belief or just focussed thought? Without a stream of essence from that > source it probably wouldn't effect them, so i suppose if some nut jobs > believed in basterdized images as existing then they could take the essence > from there if they wanted to become those images (that would be for gods, > critters that are fantasies probably pop in and out of existance as interest > focuses on them, so there probably was a Freddy and Jason wandering around > out there in the marchs, maybe even now, hungry for essence, thirsting for > blood, but i digress) Yeah - I'd agree with your points here in general. > as for the muses and virtues, their still the cultural concept, an angel with > a word is not just every cultures concept but God's concept, the Symphony's > concept (just as demonic Words are the demon's in questions concept, the hell > with everyone else) Hmm - I'd disagree here - an Celestial with a Word is a being who chooses (with some help from Seraphim Council/God/Lucifer depending for the actual work part) to bond their essential being with an element of the Symphony - and to a certain extent act as a personification of the abstract concept represented by their Word (roughly). Could the weight of Humanity's collective belief not forge a similiar bond? > and for the political part i suppose it would depend how closely the cultures > concept matchs the Symphonys or the demons > I said non-political... ( I think.. - I meant to anyway) > Timothy, Angel of Rambling (whose rites are available to all who ask) > Btw - no Choir? :) *breathes in that rush of Essence - aaahh* Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) Kafziel, Ofanim of Light, Master of the Realms of Night :) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1999 08:37:48 -0500 From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer) Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals >>>>> "W" == Warsinger writes: >>>>> "JFM" == Jason F. McBrayer wrote: W> Thanks for the reply - and while I can quite happily accept these W> if I was playing in your game chances are I won't be - and these W> are the changes I would make for my game - with reasons given. But of course. JFM> JFM> PC Ethereals should be either well-known fictional characters, or JFM> members of a "servitor race" / minor deities of a pagan pantheon JFM> which is still well-known, if not actually still worshipped JFM> (valkyries, satyrs, nymphs, banshees, etc. would be appropriate, for JFM> example). W> All above fine - I would also add in the possibility of some other modern W> stuff - like say the Greys - or some of the other popular SF stuff that W> has seeped into mainstream (ish?) culture that would have had enough W> influence to have a reflection in the Marches. I agree with that; I guess I would have lumped Grays in with well-known fictional characters, but they do have a whole mythology of their own. I also liked the idea someone posted a long time ago, and which is on the INC, that the Grays are actually Faeries in service to Vapula. It explains a lot of things (like lost time). JFM> PC Ethereals should be based on 7 Forces. Most Ethereals in my JFM> games would be weaker than this. W> I'd say 9 - PC Demons get a lift above the rest of the Horde - pretty much W> for play balance as far as I can see - and given the system for working W> out character points 2 Forces makes a lot of difference - your main W> problem as an Ethereal is your lack of support - just getting new Songs is W> a major problem - plus the IN Nomine system breaks down at the low end and W> therefore I try and avoid it. Well, that's true, but in my system Ethereals would have certain other advantages that Celestials don't have. 1) They get to create their own attunements and rites (though they may have to take a lot of discord to have the character points for many attunements). 2) They don't cause Disturbance in the Marches unless they directly interfere with a dreamer. 3) With PC Ethereals in service to Beleth, some of the problem of "no support" goes away. W> Yes you can defend against all this by saying Celestials are meant W> to be the main focus of the game in general - but I'd say the PC's W> are the focus of a game and a GM should arrange ways so that things W> balance out somehow - yes Celestials have the raw power on their W> character sheet - but the Human knows something useful etc. The W> same applies to Ethereals to an extent. My feeling is that Ethereals need to be weaker than Celestials for the flavor of the game to not be disrupted, especially if you are playing a "modern" ethereal like a Grey or The King in Yellow. Making them equivalent to weaker demons is a way of doing that. IMC, most Ethereals are probably 1-force animate foreground imagery that have escaped from a dream or been summoned from one by a sorceror and not sent back. PC's would be more powerful Ethereals just as playerss play more powerful demons. JFM> PC Ethereals can buy unique attunements for 10 character points, JFM> subject to GM approval/modification. They can buy unique rites for 3 JFM> character points each. W> Yep. My thinking was that it lets Ethereals be more flexible than Celestials in terms of design, without making them more powerful. It fits pretty well with how Mummies work, too. W> I'd also see certain Archangels covertly employing some Ethereals - W> Michael springs to mind, as does Yves given the comment about certain of W> the Old Gods carrying heavy Destinies - and possibly Blandine too. Out of W> sight of Lawrence of course. Maybe. In my game, most Archangels other than Jordi don't like the idea of Ethereals on Earth. W> Renegade in most cases only if noticed - all the problems of W> spotting a Celestial in a Vessel apply to Ethereals too pretty W> much. I agree. W> For anyone using the non-Canon (but maybe future-Canon?) Word W> Forces - how about it? And if not how would you deal with the W> statments about some Ethereals being almost equal in power to a W> minor Superior/major Wordbound >> in what sense is their power equal? Can't help here since I don't like the Word Forces idea. I'd just make a few powerful Ethereals 14--18 Forces and load them up with unique Attunements. IMC most Ethereals are very weak, though. Even once-major gods probably wouldn't normally be more than 9 Forces. W> The biggest change I would make I left to last - I like the idea of W> changing human beliefs being a major issue for Ethereals in general and W> especially PCs - I would imagine most PC Ethereals to spend a fair amouant W> of their time plotting to get mortal servants and working out who can be W> trusted with precious Soul Links - precious also because they have to W> work out how to get them. Therefore I'd also like some penalities for W> failing to have mortal connections - and some systems behind this - any W> suggestions? The simplest change would to be to not let Ethereals to regain Essence without followers. You might give them a special Celestial Discord that enforces this (and let them overcome it with Will like any other Celestial Discord). Say, you need 2^n followers to totally negate the effect of the discord at level/n. Then add some mechanics for getting Essence from followers and/or making it easier to resist the Discord if you have some followers but not enough to negate it. You don't want this to be too big a concern for PC's, otherwise you can't get them involved in any bigger plots. I've had a similar problem (though it made for very funny side-plots) with Shedite PC's given their need to corrupt their hosts. I don't know. My approach would just be to say that the fluctuations in human belief that really matter to Ethereals happen over a longer time scale than is of interest in a game. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:38:24 PDT From: "Miles 2 Go" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Ethereals >In a message dated 7/27/99 12:03:25 AM, ngm1@st-andrews.ac.uk writes: > >I don't remember, but that brings up something else do the dreams >and beliefs of celestials create/fuel ethereals (hmmm, that sounds >like a story seed. . .) >It seems to be heavily implied that the ethereal is predominently >a realm of belief, so imagine without some sentient being believing >there would be no ethereal IMC some of the older ethereals are formed from the beliefs of _animals_. In particular many of the AmerIndian spirits are animal spirits: Raven, Coyote, Spider, etc. These are simply the personification of the collective dreams of those animals. This goes a long way to explain why Jordai likes the AmerIndian spirits, they are after all animals. They may have interacted with humans, but they did so in a manner that demanded respect for the natural world. food for thought, Tim _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:41:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Lurker Speaks Out... At 4:52 PM -0700 7/26/99, Luke Stargazer wrote: >However, I am a professional graphic artist and have created a couple of (I >think) really spiffy Photoshop creations along the In Nomine theme. I'm not >sure on the protocol regarding sending mass attachments to the list, which >is why I didn't just post them now. Very good. NO MASS ATTACHMENTS TO THE LIST! Thank you. (Oh, good, EDG also mentioned it. Here, have some Essence...) Mostly, for art, people put up web-pages and post the URLs to the list. Talk to me in private email about getting 'em on the INC. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:52:20 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals At 3:05 AM +0100 7/27/99, Warsinger wrote: >I'd been looking into an Ethereal character - since Ethereals gain 1 >Essence a day ( at Midnight IIRC) some as everyone else - what exactly is >this fading problem? I've never really thought about it in detail -- I suspect that it might have something to do with "Stable Force Configurations." I believe that concept made it into print somewhere in the Corporeal Player's Guide... IIRC, ethereals are supposed to be relatively "stable" at a certain number of Forces -- usually around 7-9. (The demonic and angelic "fledging" markers, interestingly enough.) Because ethereals are made of "dreamstuff," one could argue that they require a certain amount of power to keep them intact, and the less stable the configuration, the more power -- i.e., Essence -- is required. If they are worshipped, they can funnel more power into their selves, and therefore grow, using that power to stick more Forces onto themselves. If they lose the power, they begin to wither, losing Forces back into the Symphony as they lose the energy to hang onto them. Perhaps 7-9 Forces tends to be stable, so that the Ethereal spends 1 Essence a day to maintain itself, and gets 1 Essence a day... Or maybe they're stable enough it's more like 1 Essence a week to be sure they won't disintegrate more, but they can stretch that a bit if they want to live dangerously (allowing them to replenish themselves if they entirely exhaust their Essence reserves). Maybe that's what the "Stable" range is -- how long they remain stable before requiring some Essence to stabilize them. If they require 2 Essence a day to remain stable, then they're far more dependant on worship than if they require 1 Essence every 1-2 weeks. Naturally, if you use this model (which I'm making up as I type), the ethereals would claim that God, the UberEthereal, is maintaining all his little minions, the angels. And possibly the demons, unless they think that Lucifer has a handle upon the Source of Power that God used to elevate Himself above the other ethereals -- in which case, Lucifer is the one who maintains the demons. (Which has some nice implications for the Rebellion and other fun stuff. If you believe what ethereals say.) >Oh - and any thoughts on Ethereals and Words? In canon, they don't get them. (If you're not doing canon, then have fun. I'm just not creative enough to make up something non-canon there right now.) >Kafziel, Ofanim of Light, Master of the Realms of Night :) Ofanite is the singular. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:32:22 +0100 (BST) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals On 27 Jul 1999, Jason F. McBrayer wrote: > > JFM> > JFM> PC Ethereals should be either well-known fictional characters, or > JFM> members of a "servitor race" / minor deities of a pagan pantheon > JFM> which is still well-known, if not actually still worshipped > JFM> (valkyries, satyrs, nymphs, banshees, etc. would be appropriate, for > JFM> example). > > > W> All above fine - I would also add in the possibility of some other modern > W> stuff - like say the Greys - or some of the other popular SF stuff that > W> has seeped into mainstream (ish?) culture that would have had enough > W> influence to have a reflection in the Marches. > > I agree with that; I guess I would have lumped Grays in with > well-known fictional characters, but they do have a whole mythology of > their own. I also liked the idea someone posted a long time ago, and > which is on the INC, that the Grays are actually Faeries in service to > Vapula. It explains a lot of things (like lost time). Categorising things in literature and other media - alwaysfun :). When you mentioned well-known fictional characters I was thinking more of say Sherlock Holmes etc (possibly influenced by that funky plot seed The Dumas Club) and was also kind of biased against that - too many local players keen on camping it up - and I wouldn't want to give them that amount of encourgement. I liked the plot seed - but I wouldn't use it myself as I like the Marches having a very varied population - with certain elements remaining part of the scenary for longer of course. Although I could see the Faerie Courts gradually changing into Greys - but that's slightly different. > Well, that's true, but in my system Ethereals would have certain other > advantages that Celestials don't have. Well you didn't mention applicable house canon before :) No worries btw - I should remember how difficult it is to convey humour in a text format - so just take it as read *wince* > > 1) They get to create their own attunements and rites (though they may > have to take a lot of discord to have the character points for many > attunements). Valid point - I hadn't thought how nice that is - although personally I'd restrict creation their own Attunements so that your standard Fire spirits and Animate Foreground Elements or whatever etc can't access this. > 2) They don't cause Disturbance in the Marches unless they directly > interfere with a dreamer. Hmmm - interesting interpretation of Canon - which I'm always happy to twiddle with - I'd normal Marches Disturbance rules (ie generally nothing much to worry about in any case) apply if the Ethereal is acting outwith their theme - but within it they'd get that advantage. > 3) With PC Ethereals in service to Beleth, some of the problem of "no > support" goes away. > I'd never really considered playing one in Service to Beleth - perhaps mainly because our game started out as a Con event and for ease was restricted to Angels only and we've not had any character changes yet - but also because if I was playing an 'evil' Ethereal the last person I'd want connections to is Beleth.( Well maybe Morningstar would rate higher on my list of Celestials to avoid - but even then I'm not sure - and Uriel too - but He doesn't exactly count - we hope :) ) DP's provide less support in general I'd have thought - and as an Ethereal you'd get even less - with greater supervision - (from middle management types if no-one else). > > My feeling is that Ethereals need to be weaker than Celestials for the > flavor of the game to not be disrupted, especially if you are playing > a "modern" ethereal like a Grey or The King in Yellow. Making them > equivalent to weaker demons is a way of doing that. IMC, most > Ethereals are probably 1-force animate foreground imagery that have > escaped from a dream or been summoned from one by a sorceror and not > sent back. PC's would be more powerful Ethereals just as playerss > play more powerful demons. Hmm - I think I'll the issue of the flavour of the game alone - aside to say from main book IN you can't really refer to one flavour - it comes in three. It depends what you chose to emphasise too much - and I don't know enough about what you choose to emphasise in your games. I'd have put the average Ethereal at 3 Forces myself - the ones wandering about to an extent. Balance issue again - there is the matter of a fair amount of Celestials willing to take you out at the first opportunity just for being on Earth - and the weaker Ethereals in general are the more incentive there is for Celestials to take that attitude since there is a lack of perceived risk - but still looks good to the Boss... > My thinking was that it lets Ethereals be more flexible than > Celestials in terms of design, without making them more powerful. It > fits pretty well with how Mummies work, too. I know it was me that mentioned Mummies first - but I really don't like the Undead rules - my basic objection being the alledged catch in Undead status - destruction of the soul with the body is frankly a bonus from the point of view of the Undead - I'm damned and badly enough that I'm getting the attention of some scarily powerful entities - and they are giving me a way out on eternal damnation?? Yay - sounds good to me. I can see Saminga coming up with the idea - and making a few - and then Baal reading his monthly report from his spy - slaughtering a few demons in Gehenna - and then going for a quiet 'talk' with Saminga. Asmodeus probably watching with interest. But yes in general it is pretty consistent with Mummies which is good :) > > W> I'd also see certain Archangels covertly employing some Ethereals - > W> Michael springs to mind, as does Yves given the comment about certain of > W> the Old Gods carrying heavy Destinies - and possibly Blandine too. Out of > W> sight of Lawrence of course. > > Maybe. In my game, most Archangels other than Jordi don't like the > idea of Ethereals on Earth. > Hmm - just different interpretations of Superior policy. *shrug* > W> For anyone using the non-Canon (but maybe future-Canon?) Word > W> Forces - how about it? And if not how would you deal with the > W> statments about some Ethereals being almost equal in power to a > W> minor Superior/major Wordbound > >> in what sense is their power equal? > > Can't help here since I don't like the Word Forces idea. I'd just > make a few powerful Ethereals 14--18 Forces and load them up with > unique Attunements. IMC most Ethereals are very weak, though. Even > once-major gods probably wouldn't normally be more than 9 Forces. Ewwh - don't like that idea at all - but could just be bias from me being pagan irl. But it also doesn't seem to quite fit - I wonder about all the other implications of making the creations of the human mind that much weaker - surely it would have bad effects on Eli if humanity's creative spark lacks fire? > The simplest change would to be to not let Ethereals to regain Essence > without followers. Bit excessive - and frankly the idea that everyone gets one essence daily is pretty well established - having 1/3 rd of reality have different rules seems a little odd to me. You might give them a special Celestial Discord > that enforces this (and let them overcome it with Will like any other > Celestial Discord). Say, you need 2^n followers to totally negate the > effect of the discord at level/n. Then add some mechanics for getting > Essence from followers and/or making it easier to resist the Discord > if you have some followers but not enough to negate it. > Twiddly but doable - not keen on it mind you - but doable. > You don't want this to be too big a concern for PC's, otherwise you > can't get them involved in any bigger plots. I've had a similar > problem (though it made for very funny side-plots) with Shedite PC's > given their need to corrupt their hosts. > Hmm - I'd disagree again here - I'd have it a major concern for Ethereals as an essential part of their nature in the same way Celestials have to worry about Dissonance and actually getting work done for their Superior while wanting to go off and be player character like (not all adventures coming direct from Superiors - and players do have a tendancy to poke at things :) ). The Shedite problem is a very good analody and I would also make that a major issue for a player - designing Shedite PCs I rejected quite a few because I couldn't work out how they'd find time to 'adventure'. Not too huge it overshadows things don't get me wrong - but easily /appearing/ to be just as important. Unless your running an End of the World plot or similar epic of course :) > I don't know. My approach would just be to say that the fluctuations > in human belief that really matter to Ethereals happen over a longer > time scale than is of interest in a game. > Er - time scale of a game using game time 1-5 years - and if it isn't relevant in that time then Ethereals should be a lot better off - Celestials (as the technical main focus of the game) are immortal (under one definition at any rate - call it unaging :) ) and too short a time span for a game short changes that. All my comments are of course IMNERHO Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) Kafziel, Ofanim of Light, Master of the Realms of Night :) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1292 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.