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in_nomine-digest       Wednesday, July 28 1999       Volume 01 : Number 1293



In this digest:

   Re: IN> Corporeal Song of Shields
   Re: IN> Ethereals
   Re: IN> Ethereals
   Re: IN> Ethereals
   IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1292
   Re IN> Ethereals
   IN> Re: Re IN- Ethereals
   Re: IN> Re: Re IN- Ethereals
   IN> Bad 'Shrooms (Fluffish?)
   Re: Re IN> Ethereals
   Re: IN> Bad 'Shrooms (Fluffish?)
   Re: IN> Bad 'Shrooms (Fluffish?)
   IN> IN- Ethereals
   Re: Re IN> Ethereals
   Re: IN> Re: Re IN- Ethereals
   IN> Virtues
   Re: Re IN> Ethereals
   Re: IN> Virtues
   Re: IN> Virtues
   IN> Re: IN- Virtues
   IN> Test Program
   Re: IN> Re: IN- Virtues
   IN> Earth to Sheep Boy
   Fwd: Re: IN> Ethereals

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:05:39 -0400
From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC <johnk@ascc.lucent.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Corporeal Song of Shields

Walter Milliken wrote:
> 
> At 4:36 -0400 7/7/99, EDG wrote:
> >Quick question - as nothing corporeal can get through a Corporeal Song of
> >Shields... and sound is vibrations through air... can anything outside a
> >Corporeal Shield be heard by those inside, and vice versa?
> 
> I would say sound would generally get through -- but not very *intense*
> sound, such as a explosion outside the shield.
> 
> Playing physics with Songs is dangerous -- a strict reading would suggest
> that Shields would block the flow of oxygen, too.
> 
> I'd go with the notion that it really only blocks macroscopic and
> high-energy effects.  Presumably, it would stop lasers, too, though
> the description of the mechanism would imply otherwise.
> 
> In GURPS IN, I think we used the spell Force Dome as the basis for this
> Song.

	Yah. Mind you, there's nothing WRONG with getting picky
with Shields... it's just not canon.  It might be kinda fun to
have a shield that blocked sound and would eventually fill up
with stale air!
	It's a miracle, basically.  Anything harmful (going in
either direction) gets blocked.  Fresh air and sounds make it
through.

- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|   John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs    |
|           (919)388-2665(COOL)  MIB2300             |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:16:28 -0400
From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC <johnk@ascc.lucent.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals

Elizabeth McCoy wrote:
> 
> At 3:05 AM +0100 7/27/99, Warsinger wrote:
> >I'd been looking into an Ethereal character - since Ethereals gain 1
> >Essence a day ( at Midnight IIRC) some as everyone else - what exactly is
> >this fading problem?
> 
> <non-canon>
> 
> I've never really thought about it in detail -- I suspect that it
> might have something to do with "Stable Force Configurations." I
> believe that concept made it into print somewhere in the Corporeal
> Player's Guide... IIRC, ethereals are supposed to be relatively
> "stable" at a certain number of Forces -- usually around 7-9. (The
> demonic and angelic "fledging" markers, interestingly enough.)
> 
> Because ethereals are made of "dreamstuff," one could argue that
> they require a certain amount of power to keep them intact, and
> the less stable the configuration, the more power -- i.e., Essence --
> is required.
> 
> If they are worshipped, they can funnel more power into their selves,
> and therefore grow, using that power to stick more Forces onto themselves.
> If they lose the power, they begin to wither, losing Forces back into
> the Symphony as they lose the energy to hang onto them.

> </non-canon>
> 
> >Oh - and any thoughts on Ethereals and Words?
> 
> In canon, they don't get them. (If you're not doing canon, then have
> fun. I'm just not creative enough to make up something non-canon there
> right now.)

	Some non-canon stuff you might consider: What if the 'Word'
of an Ethereal is... themselves?  As the 'word' wanes (as measured
by the amount of worship/essence they get), the ethereal gets smaller
and vice-versa. Ethereals haven't figure out the trick to connect
themselves to CONCEPTS like the demons and angels have.
	So Thor is the ethereal whose word is 'Thor'.  Notice
that God's name, in any language, is usually just that, God.
Hmmmmm... raises some thoughts, eh?   ;)

- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|   John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs    |
|           (919)388-2665(COOL)  MIB2300             |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:29:25 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals

John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote:

>         Some non-canon stuff you might consider: What if the 'Word'
> of an Ethereal is... themselves?  As the 'word' wanes (as measured
> by the amount of worship/essence they get), the ethereal gets smaller
> and vice-versa. Ethereals haven't figure out the trick to connect
> themselves to CONCEPTS like the demons and angels have.
>         So Thor is the ethereal whose word is 'Thor'.

Hm.  But lots of Ethereals, even most of them, are essentially animated 
symbols, pointing to major things in human life.  Thor is a 
personification of thunder, for instance.  A lot of fays and several 
major gods are personifications of natural or agricultural fertility.
Other Ethereals are personifications of fear or rage, etc.

Makes it hard to think of any Ethereal "Words" as self-referential.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:09:33 -0700
From: Steel Angel <steelangel@cruzers.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals

Warsinger wrote:

>
> I'd been looking into an Ethereal character - since Ethereals gain 1
> Essence a day ( at Midnight IIRC) some as everyone else - what exactly is
> this fading problem? I could see the Ethereal Realms requiring an Essence
> expenditure to retain their shape - maybe - but what is the problem for
> the individual Ethereal?  This is well into the vague Canon stuff - so I
> don't expect complete answers naturally - Beth and CO. get paid for that
> stuff (and very deservedly too - I don't like coming across as one of
> those people who wants to avoid buying any books) - but since our Game is
> very non-Canon anyway - I'd just like to hear some theories if anyone has
> them.  Thanks.  Oh - and any thoughts on Ethereals and Words?  Thanks
> again.
>

    Well, my opinion on the matter would involve a lesser type of
Word-binding. An Ethereal entity runs on belief. They don't just draw strength
from a Word, they -live- on it. So a 'god' needs worship or remembrance in
order to continue powering itself. To paraphrase Lord Dunsany 'A god dies the
last time its name is ever uttered by a mortal tongue.' This would explain why
certain Ethereals like the Norse pantheon are still extant...they are
remembered, and such remembrance is tantamount to a form of worship.
    I'd say, in In Nomine, this derives from the fact that God (Yaweh, Jehova,
Allah, whatever) and Lucifer have co-opted the majority of the Sympony and
also exist on an intrinsicially 'higher' level of being than the Ethereals do.
Thus, the Ethereals have to live by their rules, as it were. So unless an
Ethereal is receiving patronage (as from Beleth) or a semi-steady form of
'belief' or 'worship' they are subject to fading out and returning to the
Symphony at large.

- - Abracax: Shedite of Riots

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:36:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Benjamin Acosta <ben@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1292

> From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer)
> Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals
> 
> 
> PC Ethereals are either "in service to" Beleth, or Renegade (the
> Diabolicals don't want Ethereals on Earth acting as free agents).

Don't the Loa of Voodoo have a informal alliance with Heaven as part of
their if you can't beat them, join them tactic.  I remember in the Marches
book that they associated themselves with Saints and even shared their
Soldiers with Angels.  Angels at the very least tended to look the other
way when it came to the Loa.  On a good day they might even help each
other out.

Ben, Elohite of Eli
Angel of Neat Ideas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:57:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: Benjamin Acosta <ben@HiWAAY.net>
Subject: Re IN> Ethereals

> From: SdshowTim@aol.com
> Seeing some of the Ethereals accidently created by various Superiors could
> be interesting... BUT Celestials don't have their own Dreamscapes so
> probably not in general - but I'd say a Superior wandering about the
> Marches could create sort of Ethereal Echoes.

I have a very weird question which looks at Celestial/Ethereal connections
from the other side, which involves a situation which would probably never
come up in a Canon setting.  What would happen if a celestial was given an
ethereal as a Word? Would that be a good way of diverting essence, as the
essence generated by the belief in the diety went to feed the Word instead
of the God?  Or would both be strengthened by worship of the diety?  Would
there be some sort of link, or merging of their personalities and nature?
Would this even be possible?  I could see this happening as an experiment
of Lucifer's or the Seraphim Council trying this as a way to diminish a
Ethereal by diverting their Essence to Heaven.  The former is more likely
than the latter because it would be a very risky gambit which might either
backfire or cause something very wierd to happen.

Ben, Elohite of Eli
Angel of Neat Ideas 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:09:27 PDT
From: "Miles 2 Go" <miles2go@hotmail.com>
Subject: IN> Re: Re IN- Ethereals

Benjamin Acosta wrote:

>I have a very weird question which looks at Celestial/Ethereal >connections 
>from the other side, which involves a situation
>which would probably never come up in a Canon setting.
>What would happen if a celestial was given an
>ethereal as a Word? Would that be a good way of diverting >essence, as the 
>essence generated by the belief in the diety
>went to feed the Word instead of the God?  Or would both be
>strengthened by worship of the diety?  Would there be some
>sort of link, or merging of their personalities and nature?
>Would this even be possible?  I could see this happening as an >experiment 
>of Lucifer's or the Seraphim Council trying this as a
>way to diminish a Ethereal by diverting their Essence to Heaven.
>The former is more likely than the latter because it would be a
>very risky gambit which might either
>backfire or cause something very wierd to happen.

Well, if you mean someone having the word "Thor" then that
might be non-canon, but I would think it to be possible for
someone to have a word of a type of ethereals.  After all
they are part of the symphony.

Hmm, I know one of my players is on the list.  The following
contains spoilers for my Points of View campaign.

spoiler space












Ok, that should be enough.  One of the celestials my players
are going to run across is a Habbalite of Beleth holds the word
of Dragons.  Which was the same word he held when he served
Jodai before the Purity Crusade.  I haven't written him up in detail
yet, but he's a wonderful character for challenging players with
what's right and wrong.  Here's a quote, "I did not turn my back
on Heaven.  Heaven turned its back on me."

So I think there could easily be other words associated with
Etheral beings, but since the Purity Crusade the Seraphim counsel
is probably very hesitant to assign such words.  After all to support
their word, any such being might work against Heaven.  Similar
logic applies to demonic words, but I would imagine there are
several servants of Jordai who held words for mythical creatures
who now serve Beleth, words such as Gorgons, Minautors,
Unicorns, etc.

As long as I'm on the subject of the holder of the word of dragons,
let me ask some questions I've been tossing around...

Could a word-bound Elohite choose from sheer logic that the best way to 
serve his word would be to place himself in the service of a Demon Prince?
Example:  The holder of the Word of Dragons choosing to work with Beleth 
because she shelters the last surviving dragons.

If so what would happen to the Elohite?  Would the Superior require him to 
fall to accept him?  Or does a purely logical decision that one must serve 
hell to serve one's word still cause an Elohim to fall?

What is Jordai's reaction?  If fallen the Habbalite of course still 
considers himself to be an angel, an Angel of Jordai in Service to Beleth.  
So would Jordai strip the now demon of his attunements?

Just some food for thought.  I'll probably write this up as an
adventure seed later.

Tim



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 00:34:02 EDT
From: SdshowTim@aol.com
Subject: Re: IN> Re: Re IN- Ethereals

In a message dated 7/27/99 11:11:32 PM, miles2go@hotmail.com writes:

<<Could a word-bound Elohite choose from sheer logic that the best way to 
serve his word would be to place himself in the service of a Demon Prince?
Example:  The holder of the Word of Dragons choosing to work with Beleth 
because she shelters the last surviving dragons.

If so what would happen to the Elohite?  Would the Superior require him to 
fall to accept him?  Or does a purely logical decision that one must serve 
hell to serve one's word still cause an Elohim to fall?>>

I think like all choirs no matter how perferect their resonance and nature is 
it always points to God being right regardless of what non-angelic beings 
perceive, personal doubt can set in, thats free will, but on the angelic side 
of things the angel's inborn resonance and logical nature are tuned towards 
god.  Otherwise i'd wager that lucifer would have gotten more than a third of 
the host.
But that's just my opinion

Timothy, "Angel" of Rambling

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 03:31:38 -0500
From: Shadowstar <shadowstar@centuryinter.net>
Subject: IN> Bad 'Shrooms (Fluffish?)

You know,

   . . . Whenever they -finaly- unveil the new cover to one of the new
books, I sometimes look at 'em and do this.  I dunno if this is something
that constitutes as consuming funky Mushrooms or not. . .

   http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/youarehere/img/cover_lg.jpg

   Nice though!  Definitely something a -little- different for a change.
Though I suspect there are -still- some of the camp wanting this book to be
called 'Liber Locorum' or somesuchnonsense.  *shrug*  Guess it really
doesn't matter.  *grin*

   Those of you who -didn't- get to playtest it, you're in for a real
treat.  Really.  I mean, if Maya dearest can -force- the terrible wrath we
know as a LE to feed her inner Shedite with bon-bons. . .  How -bad- can it
be?  *evil grin*

   (I'll except that Essence now. . .)

Be seeing you,

- - Tafka J.
= shadowstar@centuryinter.net
# Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur
* http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:51:45 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: Re IN> Ethereals

Benjamin Acosta wrote:

> I have a very weird question which looks at Celestial/Ethereal 
> connections from the other side, which involves a situation which 
> would probably never come up in a Canon setting.  What would happen 
> if a celestial was given an ethereal as a Word?

Hm.  You know, I don't know that it's that weird.  I don't think 
*an* Ethereal is as likely as a class of them, though.

Example:  It's right after Uriel's Purge and Blandine is still 
upset about the ragged holes he left in the Marches, and even more 
upset about the way he's driven lots of surviving Ethereals into 
Beleth's arms.  So she appoints an Angel of the Seelie Court and 
rams it through the Seraphim Council (who, since Uriel's recall, 
are generally feeling queasy about the Purge, are surprised to see 
Blandine so politically active for a change, and guiltily feel 
they sort of owe her one).

This Angel of the Seelie would have at least a couple of goals.
It would try to influence the Seelie to become more like, say, 
the High Elves of Tolkien and less like roistering fertility 
poltergeists.  It would also want to make sure the Seelie stay 
around.

To this end, the Seelie Angel might establish Rites that Seelie 
fays could practice.  These would win them Essence and also guide 
them in more Heavenly paths.  Rites like:

Assist mortal worker (a la brownies): +1
Pixie-lead domestic tyrant: +1
Stage-manage "good luck" for true lovers: +2
Do a fairy godmother gig: +10

An Angel of Unicorns might shape them away from their
ominous-to-ambiguous medieval image and more toward their
exalted-to-cute modern image.  (Yeah, I know Uriel wiped out the
unicorns.  It doesn't follow that they *stayed* wiped out.)

An Angel of Centaurs would de-emphasize the brawling losers of Ovid's
Centauromachy and emphasize the sage, Chiron-type centaurs of, say,
Narnia.

And so forth.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:00:46 -0400
From: "EDG (and Orc)" <edg@pyramid.sjgames.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Bad 'Shrooms (Fluffish?)

At 03:31 AM 7/28/99 -0500, you wrote:

*grumble* I bet that means there's a page they haven't told me about that I
have to link to the main page... *sigh*  Time to go searching, and then not
do anything about it until tonight 'cos I have to work today!

>   (I'll except that Essence now. . .)

Speaking of Essence, I think I'll get a Nitpicking tidbit and make that an
"accept".

- -EDG

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:12:55 -0400
From: "EDG (and Orc)" <edg@pyramid.sjgames.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Bad 'Shrooms (Fluffish?)

At 10:00 AM 7/28/99 -0400, you wrote:

>*grumble* I bet that means there's a page they haven't told me about that I
>have to link to the main page... *sigh*  Time to go searching, and then not
>do anything about it until tonight 'cos I have to work today!

*grumble* Or I could already have linked to it and forgotten about it.
Yes, folks, there _is_ a You Are Here link on the main In Nomine page,
despite what I, the maintainer, thought. ;)

(Look at me.  I'm nitpicking _myself_.)

- -EDG

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:39:54 PDT
From: "liam astley" <esp_horsepie@hotmail.com>
Subject: IN> IN- Ethereals

 > <IMC>
>PC Ethereals should be either well-known fictional characters, or
>members of a "servitor race" / minor deities of a pagan pantheon
>which is still well-known, if not actually still worshipped
>(valkyries, satyrs, nymphs, banshees, etc. would be appropriate, for
>example).
>

that's cool. i'd be tempted to let players take the roles of full-on gods as 
well, who got the crap kicked out of them in the Crusade and as a result are 
now pretty powerless (a la Thor in no dinero). it's a definite step-up from 
"i coulda been a contender" to "i used to be a deity". depending on how the 
player handled it they could either still be arrogant and prideful of their 
(now largely meaningless) position, or humbled by their time among the 
masses.


>Ethereals cannot be Wordbound, but all Ethereals tend to develop
>"themes" to their attunements.

the elemental affinities in the marches book are pretty cool as alternative 
attunements - not as powerful as the more flashy celestial ones but able to 
have various different effects around a single theme



liam
(Demon of Vodka, Servitor of Fleurity, probably)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:28:58 -0400
From: Frank Lazar <fmlazar@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: Re: Re IN> Ethereals

At 9:51 AM -0500 7/28/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote:
>Benjamin Acosta wrote:
>
>> I have a very weird question which looks at Celestial/Ethereal
>> connections from the other side, which involves a situation which
>> would probably never come up in a Canon setting.  What would happen
>> if a celestial was given an ethereal as a Word?
>
>Hm.  You know, I don't know that it's that weird.  I don't think
>*an* Ethereal is as likely as a class of them, though.
>
>Example:  It's right after Uriel's Purge and Blandine is still
>upset about the ragged holes he left in the Marches, and even more
>upset about the way he's driven lots of surviving Ethereals into
>Beleth's arms.  So she appoints an Angel of the Seelie Court and
>rams it through the Seraphim Council (who, since Uriel's recall,
>are generally feeling queasy about the Purge, are surprised to see
>Blandine so politically active for a change, and guiltily feel
>they sort of owe her one).

   It'd be a pretty hard sell.  The major difference between a 
Celestial's Word and the Ethereals is that the Word is an expression 
of a pre-existing Symphonic theme, and Words are usually limited to 
just that, something that's been in potential in the Symphony from 
Creation itself.  The inhabitants of the Marches however are 
second-order creations, spun off in the main by Humanity itself,  I 
don't think the Seraphim Council can bind a Word on something 
strictly in Humanity's preview.  (Dream itself on the other hand is a 
Symphonic theme, the results of it are second order).



>This Angel of the Seelie would have at least a couple of goals.
>It would try to influence the Seelie to become more like, say,
>the High Elves of Tolkien and less like roistering fertility
>poltergeists.  It would also want to make sure the Seelie stay
>around.

    Also tough since all of the Fay have already made their compact 
with Hell and it's part of the Fay's basic nature that they can't 
break a compact unless the other side releases them.  Anyoen want to 
go ask Beleth? :)


   An alternative to Word of (insert favorite no-longer existing 
mytholotical creature here), would be to having Fay (or non-Fay 
spirits who haven't compacted to Hell, there are a few Celestials who 
are "looking the other way" with some rare cases of ethnic ethereals, 
mostly David's as I recall) serving Dream itself or a sub word. 
Another possiblity would be Creation if Eli and Blandine ever find 
time to touch base while they're both avoiding the Council scene.
 

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                                         _           |
| We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers.          /_\          |
| We study the mysteries of laser and circuit,          // \\         |
| Crystal and scanner, holographic demons,     \\      //___\\        |
| And invocations of equations.                 \\    //     \\       |
|                                                \\__//       \\      |
| These are the tools we employ.   And we know... many things. \\     |
|                                                               \\    |
|       |                                                 |      \\   |
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:36:18 -0400
From: Frank Lazar <fmlazar@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Re: Re IN- Ethereals

At 12:34 AM -0400 7/28/99, SdshowTim@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 7/27/99 11:11:32 PM, miles2go@hotmail.com writes:
>
><<Could a word-bound Elohite choose from sheer logic that the best way to
>serve his word would be to place himself in the service of a Demon Prince?
>Example:  The holder of the Word of Dragons choosing to work with Beleth
>because she shelters the last surviving dragons.
>
>If so what would happen to the Elohite?  Would the Superior require him to
>fall to accept him?  Or does a purely logical decision that one must serve
>hell to serve one's word still cause an Elohim to fall?>>

   It's the classic example of the occasional dilemma between serving 
Heaven and serving one's Word.  Druiel, the Angel of Teenage Death 
may have already Fallen because overzealousness in his approach to 
serving his Word.  (At the very least, the Archangel Christopher is 
going to have some rather harsh words for him.)   The Elohite then 
would Fall plain and simple, and probably become a Habbalite 
supporting one of a variety of Dark Words which he would fit in with. 
In Beleth's service, it would probably employ Dragons as creatures of 
nightmare.  If it worked for Nybbas, it might be giving more proof to 
the "evils" of RPGs. :)

    As per your example, as second order creations, there wouldn't be 
a Word for Dragons.  I've given it some thought and I rule that the 
Council can only grant Words for first order Symphonic themes, those 
directly created by God itself.  The ethereal creations of Humanity 
are second order.   The purly corporeal creations of Humanity are 
planned for by the Symphony and are thus, first order.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                                         _           |
| We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers.          /_\          |
| We study the mysteries of laser and circuit,          // \\         |
| Crystal and scanner, holographic demons,     \\      //___\\        |
| And invocations of equations.                 \\    //     \\       |
|                                                \\__//       \\      |
| These are the tools we employ.   And we know... many things. \\     |
|                                                               \\    |
|       |                                                 |      \\   |
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:47:29 PDT
From: "liam astley" <esp_horsepie@hotmail.com>
Subject: IN> Virtues

hi there

just a question for you bibliophiles out there. i was wondering if there is 
an "official" list of Virtues that recur in Christian writings, similar to 
the "official" vices of the seven deadly sins. are they things like faith, 
hope, charity, etc? or are they direct opposites of the sins?
Enquiring minds must know

cheers

liam

p.s. this may have been discussed on the list before i started lurking on 
it, but anyway - is it just me, or is Valefor just Janus with some stick-on 
horns? or is he his evil twin?


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:50:47 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: Re IN> Ethereals

Frank Lazar wrote:

> The inhabitants of the Marches however are
> second-order creations, spun off in the main by Humanity itself,  I
> don't think the Seraphim Council can bind a Word on something
> strictly in Humanity's preview.

I have a hard time believing that some of the Words under Technology 
or Trade are any less human-centered than the Ethereals.

> Also tough since all of the Fay have already made their compact
> with Hell and it's part of the Fay's basic nature that they can't
> break a compact unless the other side releases them.

I thought it was the Unseelie who had made the deal with Beleth.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:00:00 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Virtues

liam astley wrote:

   "just a question for you bibliophiles out there. i was wondering if
there is an "official" list of Virtues that recur in Christian writings,
similar to the "official" vices of the seven deadly sins. are they
things like faith, hope, charity, etc? or are they direct opposites of
the sins?"

Yes, there are "official" (traditional) lists.  No, they don't match up
exactly.  Both lists, of Deadly Sins and the Splendid Virtues, date from
the Middle Ages, not the Bible.  They are:

Splendid Virtues:

Charity
Faith
Hope
Justice
Fortitude
Wisdom
Temperance

Deadly Sins:

Pride
Avarice (Greed)
Envy
Sloth
Wrath
Lust
Gluttony

The trio of faith, hope and charity does come from the Bible, and so are
called the "three theological virtues."  Charity is the greatest of the
three.  The other four are the "four cardinal virtues."

On the Deadly Sins, Dorothy L. Sayers wrote that they can be classified
as "cold-hearted" and "respectable" or as "warm-hearted" and
"disreputable."  The respectable sins are Price, Avarice, and Envy, and
are always trying to disguise themselves as virtues.  Pride is taken to
be the worst of the sins, and, in the form of selfishness, the
foundation of all the others.


   "this may have been discussed on the list before i started lurking on
it, but anyway - is it just me, or is Valefor just Janus with some
stick-on horns? or is he his evil twin?"

This is sort of a running gag in the IN community, as far as I can tell.
The general feeling is that Janus and Valefor are too tightly matched to
be real, and many people like the idea that they're the same being, but
neither side can prove it.  The upshot is that there's a general feeling
that something funny is going on, but what it is may remain forever
unspecified by official canon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:23:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: gantr@NKU.EDU
Subject: Re: IN> Virtues

On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, liam astley wrote:

> just a question for you bibliophiles out there. i was wondering if there is 
> an "official" list of Virtues that recur in Christian writings, similar to 
> the "official" vices of the seven deadly sins. are they things like faith, 
> hope, charity, etc? or are they direct opposites of the sins?
> Enquiring minds must know

IIRC, the four cardinal virtues are Prudence, Justice, Temperance, and
Fortitude.

Richard Gant
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit my web page:  
Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/4656>
Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:26:04 PDT
From: "liam astley" <esp_horsepie@hotmail.com>
Subject: IN> Re: IN- Virtues

>From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>

>Yes, there are "official" (traditional) lists.  No, they don't match up
>exactly.  Both lists, of Deadly Sins and the Splendid Virtues, date from
>the Middle Ages, not the Bible.

muchos gracias  :)  these are exactly what i was looking for, both for an 
adventure idea i have for IN and also as background gubbins for a possible 
(entirely unrelated) fanatsy game

>
>Splendid Virtues:

top name! they sound like a team of good guys from a kung fu movie

>
>Fortitude

another question... how does fortitude work as a virtue? do they mean 
physical or spiritual fortitude, or a combination of the two?

>Sloth

my particular favourite  :)


>
>This is sort of a running gag in the IN community, as far as I can tell.
>The general feeling is that Janus and Valefor are too tightly matched to
>be real, and many people like the idea that they're the same being, but
>neither side can prove it.  The upshot is that there's a general feeling
>that something funny is going on, but what it is may remain forever
>unspecified by official canon.

well, they've got the same attunements and distinctions (more or less), plus 
there's all that dodgy business of ol' Val "somehow" sneaking into heaven to 
steal the cure for cancer (despite that being pretty much impossible for 
non-angels), plus little things like in the Final Trumpet where Val's late 
for the big demon meeting, or both of them keep disappearing at the Battle. 
Well suspect. the only things which leave me not entirely convinced are that 
(a) whatever his happy-go-lucky exterior, Valefor and his minions have done 
a lot to make the world a whole lot more miserable - doesn't sound too 
archangelesque to me (b) i can't see how he could have fooled lucifer


liam
Demon of Writing Bits of Important Plot On Small Pieces of Paper and Then 
Losing Them


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:38:10 -0400
From: "Yves Dorval" <nitblade@dsuper.net>
Subject: IN> Test Program

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BED8ED.AB5CFF80
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My My, I never had any idea that I would get such a response from the =
crowd :)

I will do my best to finish it (and without sloppy code) quickly.


A word of warning, I did a pre compile for the kicks and because it is =
rather...  Graphic intensive, it will take a few megs


If anyone has Visual Basic 5+ experience, please contact me URGENTLY @ =
malakim@supernet.ca
I am going through hell with my printer routine.  (no pun intended)

The rest is going fine for now...  I can make the program load skills =
and sort them by force,  songs and sort them boht by force and =
restricted to none/angelic/infernal/no imps/no gremlins


What I will need from people will be mainly input as LIKE this, DONT =
like that.


I will also need input for stuff to add like more roles (I have a list), =
more songs (I dont have all the books), More Superiors (think I got them =
all).  Naturally, this should be all official stuff from the Books :)

For those who want a quick preview (not nearly complete, but gives you =
an idea) goto http://ares.dsuper.net/in-nomine/innomine.zip


Jason
Would be angel of cookies (I want my word, pretty please... with lots =
and lots of sugar... and if it is taken, I will settle for chocolate =
chip cookies)



- ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BED8ED.AB5CFF80
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>My My, I never had any idea that I =
would get=20
such a response from the crowd :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I will do my best to finish it (and =
without=20
sloppy code) quickly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>A word of warning, I did a pre =
compile for the=20
kicks and because it is rather...&nbsp; Graphic intensive, it will take =
a few=20
megs</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>If anyone has Visual Basic 5+ =
experience, please=20
contact me URGENTLY @ <A=20
href=3D"mailto:malakim@supernet.ca">malakim@supernet.ca</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I am going through hell with my =
printer=20
routine.&nbsp; (no pun intended)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The rest is going fine for now...&nbsp; I can make =
the program=20
load skills and sort them by force,&nbsp; songs and sort them boht by =
force and=20
restricted to none/angelic/infernal/no imps/no gremlins</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>What I will need from people will be =
mainly=20
input as LIKE this, DONT like that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I will also need input for stuff to add like more =
roles (I=20
have a list), more songs (I dont have all the books), More Superiors =
(think I=20
got them all).&nbsp; Naturally, this should be all official stuff from =
the Books=20
:)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>For those who want a quick preview (not nearly =
complete, but=20
gives you an idea) goto <A=20
href=3D"http://ares.dsuper.net/in-nomine/innomine.zip">http://ares.dsuper=
.net/in-nomine/innomine.zip</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jason</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Would be angel =
of cookies (I=20
want my word, pretty please... with lots and lots of sugar... and if it =
is=20
taken, I will settle for chocolate chip cookies)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BED8ED.AB5CFF80--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:51:01 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Virtues

liam astley wrote:

> another question... how does fortitude work as a virtue? do they mean
> physical or spiritual fortitude, or a combination of the two?

Fortitude is just a slightly old-fahsioned name for courage.  It can 
mean any kind of courage, physical or spiritual, the kind that takes 
risks or the kind that endures trouble.

While I'm clarifying, temperance means healthy moderation, avoiding 
excess.  The "Temperance Movement" of the 19th century that led 
up to Prohibition in the 1920s was, in many ways, really rather 
intemperate, since many of its leaders regarded all alcohol as 
totally unacceptable.  The sin most nearly opposite temperance is 
gluttony.  Lust can also be seen as opposing temperance, but also 
as opposing faith.

The vice opposite wisdom (also called prudence) is folly, or 
foolishness, nowadays often expressed as "being a jerk."  Wisdom 
doesn't require extensive education or even lots of brains, but 
is more the moral effort to take care and think things through.

Notice that the virtues form a system.  No virtue is really worth 
much if you don't have courage, only being virtuous when there is 
no risk or cost.  And a Demon Prince could be wise, courageous, and 
even temperate, but he would lack justice and certainly charity.
And so forth.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:04:53 PDT
From: "Du Dawei" <dudawei@hotmail.com>
Subject: IN> Earth to Sheep Boy

Stavro,

I lost your e-mail address to respond off-list. Please send it to me again! 
Sorry about the inconvenience.

David


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:57:52 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> Ethereals

(Indeed, he has u n s u b s c r i b e d. I got that notification
right after this bounce.)

>Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals
>From: jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Jason F. McBrayer)
>Date: 27 Jul 1999 22:44:22 -0500
>In-Reply-To: Warsinger's message of "Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:32:22 +0100 (BST)"
>
>
>I'm really enjoying this thread, and I'd like to stay active in it,
>but I am going to have to temporarily u n s u b s c r i b e to the list because
>I'm moving.  I'll try to catch up when I'm all settled.
>
>Thanks especially to Warsinger for the interesting ideas.
>
>-- 
>+----------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Jason F. McBrayer              jmcbray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu |
>| The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill   |   
>| forever.                    R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ |
>

------------------------------

End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1293
********************************

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