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in_nomine-digest       Thursday, July 29 1999       Volume 01 : Number 1294



In this digest:

   Re: IN> Virtues
   Re: Re IN> Ethereals
   Re: IN> Re: Re IN- Ethereals
   Re: IN> Bad 'Shrooms (Fluffish?)
   IN> Little Canadian Joke
   Re: Re IN> Ethereals
   Re: IN> Virtues
   Re: Re IN> Ethereals
   Re: IN> Virtues
   Re: Re IN> Ethereals
   Re: IN> Re: Re IN- Ethereals
   IN> Expanded Rites (Fluffish?)
   IN> Re: IN- Virtues
   Re: IN> Re: IN- Virtues
   Re: IN> Re: IN- Virtues
   Re: IN> Virtues

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:18:06 -0500
From: "Prodigal" <Prodigal@ticnet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Virtues

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <gantr@NKU.EDU>
>
> IIRC, the four cardinal virtues are Prudence, Justice, Temperance, and
> Fortitude.

With the four gaming virtues being Fortitude, Potence, Celerity and Protean.

</me invokes the Song of Shields to avoid all the thrown objects>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:11:14 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Re IN> Ethereals

At 8:57 PM -0500 7/27/99, Benjamin Acosta wrote:

>I have a very weird question which looks at Celestial/Ethereal connections
>from the other side, which involves a situation which would probably never
>come up in a Canon setting.  What would happen if a celestial was given an
>ethereal as a Word? 

Well, if it were successful in diverting Essence, and the ethereal died
for lack of power going to _it_, the Word would then fade, and the 
Word-bound celestials would fade to nothing....

So I suppose you could do it, if you really hated the celestial.


If it didn't divert the Essence, then they'd grow strong together,
and you'd probably get the celestial acting like a Word-bound
Seneschal (plug: Liber Castellorum!) or Cherub.


(Not saying it's canon, but operating from canon...)


- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:24:57 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Re: Re IN- Ethereals

At 8:09 PM -0700 7/27/99, Miles 2 Go wrote:
>Benjamin Acosta wrote:

>Hmm, I know one of my players is on the list.  The following
>contains spoilers for my Points of View campaign.
>
>spoiler space
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




(a bit more to deal with what I snipped up there)


























>As long as I'm on the subject of the holder of the word of dragons,
>let me ask some questions I've been tossing around...
>
>Could a word-bound Elohite choose from sheer logic that the best way to 
>serve his word would be to place himself in the service of a Demon Prince?

It's very. very. very. very. very. VERY unlikely. 

But possible. Most Elohim would ponder this. Then ponder it again and
again, and consult older Elohim to try to find the flaw in their logic.

But possible.

>If so what would happen to the Elohite?  Would the Superior require him to 
>fall to accept him? 

Very likely, unless the Prince think it's hysterically funny to have
a _real_ angel serving him. (Kobal might get a kick out of it, for
instance. Beleth? She might not insist that the Elohite Fall, but she
probably wouldn't do anything to protect him from Habbalah -- who would
be all too willing to help their "deluded catapillar" of a 'relative'
to "fledge" into a _real_ angel: Habbalite.)

> Or does a purely logical decision that one must serve 
>hell to serve one's word still cause an Elohim to fall?

The decision? Nah. The aftermath? Very likely. Do you really want
to live around Habbalah...?

>What is Jordi's reaction?  If fallen the Habbalite of course still 
>considers himself to be an angel, an Angel of Jordi in Service to Beleth.  
>So would Jordi strip the now demon of his attunements?

He wouldn't have to -- if you Fall for real, you lose all angelic
Rites and attunements.

If he hadn't Fallen, then he'd be in the same boat as any other Outcast,
I bet. (I strongly doubt Jordi has much patience with people doing crazy
things like working for Hell. Unless the Elohite had _strongly_ impressed
Jordi somehow, his Rites will be cut off -- but if he didn't stop by to
explain all this to Jordi before he ran off, then he'd still have the
powers of whatever attunements and Distinctions he had when he ran Outcast.)


- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:27:11 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Bad 'Shrooms (Fluffish?)

At 10:12 AM -0400 7/28/99, EDG (and Orc) wrote:
>At 10:00 AM 7/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
[...]
>*grumble* Or I could already have linked to it and forgotten about it.
>Yes, folks, there _is_ a You Are Here link on the main In Nomine page,
>despite what I, the maintainer, thought. ;)

They just tucked the cover-art link in.

>(Look at me.  I'm nitpicking _myself_.)

<beth gives EDG 2 Essence -- one for him, one for Orc>


- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:52:31 -0400
From: "Jason Terlecki" <bancroft@supernet.ca>
Subject: IN> Little Canadian Joke

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01BED908.D1D64980
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I know I will probably my behind skinned for this, but I had to post it =
anyways.  All in good fun (and if not, please dont hurt me...)


- ---

    On the sixth day God turned to the angel Gabriel and said "Today I =
am
going to create a land called Canada. It will be a land of outstanding
natural beauty -- it shall have tall majestic mountains full of mountain
goats and eagles, and beautiful sparkly lakes bountiful with carp and =
trout.
There shall be forests full of elk and moose, high cliffs overlooking =
sandy
beaches with an abundance of sea life, and rivers stocked with salmon."

    God continued, "I shall make the land rich in oil so to make the
inhabitants prosper, I shall call these inhabitants Canadians,  they =
shall
be known as the most friendly people on the earth."

    "But Lord," asked Gabriel, "don't you think you are being too =
generous
to these Canadians?"

    "Not really." God replied. "Just wait and see the neighbours I am =
going
to give them."


- ---


Jason
would be angel of cookies (I really hope to get my word!)


- ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01BED908.D1D64980
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I know I will probably my behind =
skinned for=20
this, but I had to post it anyways.&nbsp; All in good fun (and if not, =
please=20
dont hurt me...)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>---</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On the sixth =
day God=20
turned to the angel Gabriel and said &quot;Today I am<BR>going to create =
a land=20
called Canada. It will be a land of outstanding<BR>natural beauty -- it =
shall=20
have tall majestic mountains full of mountain<BR>goats and eagles, and =
beautiful=20
sparkly lakes bountiful with carp and trout.<BR>There shall be forests =
full of=20
elk and moose, high cliffs overlooking sandy<BR>beaches with an =
abundance of sea=20
life, and rivers stocked with salmon.&quot;<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
God=20
continued, &quot;I shall make the land rich in oil so to make =
the<BR>inhabitants=20
prosper, I shall call these inhabitants Canadians,&nbsp; they =
shall<BR>be known=20
as the most friendly people on the =
earth.&quot;<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&quot;But Lord,&quot; asked Gabriel, &quot;don't you think you are being =
too=20
generous<BR>to these Canadians?&quot;<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&quot;Not=20
really.&quot; God replied. &quot;Just wait and see the neighbours I am=20
going<BR>to give them.&quot;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>---</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jason</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>would be angel of cookies (I really =
hope to get=20
my word!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01BED908.D1D64980--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:13:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (Jason Schneiderman)
Subject: Re: Re IN> Ethereals

At 9:51 AM 7/28/99, Earl Wajenberg wrote:
>Benjamin Acosta wrote:
>
>> I have a very weird question which looks at Celestial/Ethereal
>> connections from the other side, which involves a situation which
>> would probably never come up in a Canon setting.  What would happen
>> if a celestial was given an ethereal as a Word?

You mean like a Mercurian of Christopher with the Word of Santa Claus? ;)

J

- ---
jadasc@ma.ultranet.com (life)
werther@hilander.com (play)
jayafter12am@hotmail.com (late-night)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:13:14 -0400
From: Douglas Muir <douglas.muir@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> Virtues

>Splendid Virtues:
>
>Charity
>Faith
>Hope
>Justice
>Fortitude
>Wisdom
>Temperance

Any of these would be *major* Words, obviously.  Faith is already taken, of
course; probably Fortitude too (David).


>Deadly Sins:
>
>Pride
>Avarice (Greed)
>Envy
>Sloth
>Wrath
>Lust
>Gluttony

People are occasionally surprised to _not_ find certain things among the
Big Seven, like "hate" or "lies".  However, "hate" is not necessarily a
sin, nor does it necesarily tend to lead to sin.  It's completely OK,
virtuous even, to hate wickedness.

Some of them have broader meanings than are immediately obvious from the
English word.  Frex, "sloth" includes "willful despair", while "temperance"
includes all sorts of moderation and self-control.


>The trio of faith, hope and charity does come from the Bible, and so are
>called the "three theological virtues."  Charity is the greatest of the
>three.

In IN terms, charity would be roughly equal to unselfishness.



Doug M.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:36:34 +0100
From: Ashley <ashley.omentide@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Re IN> Ethereals

Ethereals (not unlike celestials) are varied.  They can be powerful or weak
and have all manner of abilities.  Ethereals are human constructs, they are
fabric of imagination and as such take many forms.  They are frequently
bound by rules, even the most wild have a purpose which they are supposed
to perform.  Unlike Celestials this purpose is binding, etherials are not
generally speaking able to deny their nature.

Take for example the Sidhe.  They may appear wild, but they have a fixed
nature.  Some hoard gold, others play tricks, offer enlightenment (at a
price), steal milk from cows, bestow gifts, etc.  They cannot stop what
they do, if one makes shoes that it its role and function.  If another
leads the Wild Hunt that it its role.  The Role of the Sidhe might also be
the Word of a Celestials but the Sidhe still has the Role and this does not
closely equate with a Word - they are different things.

The Sidhe also have very long memories and codes of conduct which are bound
up by their nature.  Again these are unchanging.  The rules for dealing
with the Sidhe court are fixed, as in many ways are the consequences of not
following them (universally bad - though the precise implications may
change).  To discuss the Sidhe as two aspects (light/dark, un/...)  is to
my mind not the issue.  To assume some Sidhe might have leanings towards
Heaven is at best unlikely, the light court (for want of a better term)
suffered at the hands of Uriel and his followers.  This will not have been
forgotten.  At the very least reparations would be demanded, more likley
the head of Uriel on a plate along with his cohorts which includes more
than one Archangel.  As to whether the Sidhe might favour Hell, in my
opinion no.  Hell is just as much part of the nature of celestials as
Heaven, both are damaging, neither offers a solution.

For the Sidhe gaining essence is not a real issue, much of it comes from
nature, the wild places.  There are plently of these places left, though
they are shrinking.  The Sidhe are not dependent on belief or worship.  

The major Ethereal deities on the other hand are somewhat less bound by
their nature.  Most also suffered at the hands of Uriel and will bear
Heaven no warm feelings.  Many have been courted by Hell, some may be
actively seeking alliances.  But ultimately they too are not part of the
Symphony.  These deities also have Roles though they are by no means quite
as tied as the Sidhe.  Loki may be a trickster, Artemis a huntress, but
they are also more than simply these words.  Should a celestial take the
word Hunter or Huntress it would no more diminish Artemis than it would the
leader of the Wild Hunt.  The words may be similar but the concepts are
not.   One Word is driven by the Symphony and one Role by Humanity and
human imagination.       

Potentially there is little limit to the power of an Ethereal Deity.  Sure
they need to be worshipped.  It is all well and good to list Thor as minor
in the Revelations Cycle, but he is only minor (or weak) until he has his
stuff back.  I do not think most celestials would be keen to take on Thor
once he is back to his full capabilities.  The same would be true of any
other Ethereal Deity who had enough worshippers or mythic equipment to make
a point.  How they get the following is an issue but these days all manner
of cults are springing up, and there is no reason why Beleth and / or
Blandine might not have a hand in this, these deities are after all in part
the product of human dreams.

In addition there are all manner of other ethereals, the list is almost
endless.   Each has its own unique nature (or place in human creation).
Some are minor, some are strong.  Some may have similarities to various
celestials.  Some are modern (Y2K Bug for example) others are old, mythic
or ancient.     

Most Ethereals if not all are likely to be hostile to the symphony (Heaven
and Hell).  The Ethereal Deieties are in a position to  have some freedom
of will with which to make a decision, but ultimately all serve their own
function which is a product of human belief and imagination as opposed to
the nature of the Symphony.

Ethereals are in some ways closer to humanity.  Despite their alienness
especially in the case of the Sidhe and various other spirits they are the
product of human imagination and dreams.  They have human(like) feelings,
failings, motivations, purposes.  Celestials on the other hand do not,
Heaven and Hell are not part of the human driven universe, they stand
outside by being created from the Symphony.  Celestials have far less in
common with humanity, the Corporeal comes as a shock to celestials and many
take years to understand it.  Celestials are alien, they do not need sleep,
to eat, to drink, they do not have human urges. Celestials might learn how
to deal with Humanity and the Corporeal (but at a risk of falling or going
renegade), Ethereal on the other hand come with the ready knowledge and
background to fully understand humanity and human nature.

I guess what I am saying is the Celestials and Ethereals are vastly
different and cannot really be equated or bound towards each other through
Word or Role.   

  
Ashley
ashley.omentide@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:08:12 -0400
From: "EDG (and Orc)" <edg@pyramid.sjgames.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Virtues

At 05:13 PM 7/28/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Any of these would be *major* Words, obviously.  Faith is already taken, of
>course; probably Fortitude too (David).

I would tend to think that these could be easily set to existing Archangels:

Charity: Selflessness, as you note below.  A key angelic characteristic and
therefore probably the Word of God (to coin a phrase), if He has one.
Faith: Khalid.
Hope: Analogous to Dreams; Blandine.
Justice: Theoretically analogous to Judgment; Dominic.
Fortitude: Analogous to Stone; David.
Wisdom: Probably Yves, /maybe/ Jean or Raphael when she was still around.
Temperance: I'd go for Novalis.

Likewise:

Pride: Value of self to an extreme.  The ultimate Demonic Word.
Avarice (Greed): Mammon.
Envy: Malphas would probably take this one.
Sloth: Meserach (eaten).
Wrath: Probably Belial.
Lust: Andrealphus.
Gluttony: Haagenti.

However, it would definitely be interesting to see Superiors actually
written up with those Words...

- -EDG
 hmm...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:06:50 -0400
From: Frank Lazar <fmlazar@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: Re: Re IN> Ethereals

At 3:13 PM -0400 7/28/99, Jason Schneiderman wrote:
>
>You mean like a Mercurian of Christopher with the Word of Santa Claus? ;)
>
>J


   Santa's spoken for.  Some dude named Mammon I think. :)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                                         _           |
| We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers.          /_\          |
| We study the mysteries of laser and circuit,          // \\         |
| Crystal and scanner, holographic demons,     \\      //___\\        |
| And invocations of equations.                 \\    //     \\       |
|                                                \\__//       \\      |
| These are the tools we employ.   And we know... many things. \\     |
|                                                               \\    |
|       |                                                 |      \\   |
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 02:44:32 -0500
From: Trent <mtrent@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Re: Re IN- Ethereals

>     As per your example, as second order creations, there wouldn't be
> a Word for Dragons.  I've given it some thought and I rule that the
> Council can only grant Words for first order Symphonic themes, those
> directly created by God itself.  The ethereal creations of Humanity
> are second order.   The purly corporeal creations of Humanity are
> planned for by the Symphony and are thus, first order.
> 

Now your assuming that dragons only existed in the marshes before the
purity crusade.  I'm almost sure that cannon strongly implies if not
outright says that dragons once existed on earth as creation of Jordi.

Trent
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:09:10 -0500
From: Shadowstar <shadowstar@centuryinter.net>
Subject: IN> Expanded Rites (Fluffish?)

Demon Princess of Nitpicking:
- ----------------------------

   * Convince a Nitpicker to nitpick himself.


   (I couldn't resist, really.  *evil grin*  Would I lie?)
   (And hey, EDG. . .  Thanks for making me accept that the
    english language has way too many exceptions.)


   "You know, I -could've- been a Balseraph of Nitpicking.  Alas, it's a
real shame I'm a Malakite of Fate instead. . .  An Angel can dream. . ."

Be seeing you,

- - Tafka J.
= shadowstar@centuryinter.net
# Balseraph of Fate, Marquis of Delusions of Grandeur
* http://www.best.com/~lyceum/shdwstar/in-nomine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:51:12 PDT
From: "liam astley" <esp_horsepie@hotmail.com>
Subject: IN> Re: IN- Virtues

>From: "EDG (and Orc)" <edg@pyramid.sjgames.com>
>
>I would tend to think that these could be easily set to existing 
>Archangels:
>
>Charity: Selflessness, as you note below.  A key angelic characteristic and
>therefore probably the Word of God (to coin a phrase), if He has one.

i'd go along with that, though i would assume there'd be an angel of charity 
somewhere

>Faith: Khalid.

your friendly neighbourhood nutjob

>Hope: Analogous to Dreams; Blandine.

IMC i've had a recurring NPC called Aaron who's the angel of hope, a bigwig 
servitor of Blandine and the first Menunite to have been created

>Justice: Theoretically analogous to Judgment; Dominic.
>Fortitude: Analogous to Stone; David.

again i'd agree with these, with major servitors of both superiors actually 
holding the words

>Wisdom: Probably Yves, /maybe/ Jean or Raphael when she was still around.

from what i've read, jean doesn't always seem that wise. i'd go for yves

>Temperance: I'd go for Novalis.
>

yep

>Likewise:
>
>Pride: Value of self to an extreme.  The ultimate Demonic Word.

lucifer's word?

>Avarice (Greed): Mammon.
>Envy: Malphas would probably take this one.

yep and yep

>Sloth: Meserach (eaten).

shame. he'd be doing so well these days

>Wrath: Probably Belial.

or baal, maybe.



liam
(angel of lucky breaks)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:57:41 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Virtues

liam astley wrote:

> IMC i've had a recurring NPC called Aaron who's the angel of hope, 
> a bigwig servitor of Blandine and the first Menunite to have been 
> created

If I recall canon history correctly, Blandine started out as the 
Angel of Hope before being elevated to the Archangel of Dreams, so 
it sounds like her first menuite inherited her old Word, which makes 
a certain amount of dramatic sense.


> >Pride: Value of self to an extreme.  The ultimate Demonic Word.
> 
> lucifer's word?

There's an old saying, "Proud as Lucifer."  The name itself comes 
from a goreously thunderous verse in Isaiah (I think) about 
overweening pride:

How art thou fallen from Heaven,
   O Lucifer, Son of the Morning!
How art cast down to the ground,
   Thou who didst weaken the nations!


Earl

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:46:04 -0500
From: "Eeyore" <Eeyore1@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Virtues

From: liam astley <esp_horsepie@hotmail.com>

>>From: "EDG (and Orc)" <edg@pyramid.sjgames.com>


>>Justice: Theoretically analogous to Judgment; Dominic.
>>Fortitude: Analogous to Stone; David.
>
>again i'd agree with these, with major servitors of both superiors actually
>holding the words

In the case of Fortitude, I believe that this was Magog's Word before he
Fell.

J. Michael Neal

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:21:48 -0400
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Virtues

At 9:08 PM -0400 7/28/99, EDG (and Orc) wrote:
>At 05:13 PM 7/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Any of these would be *major* Words, obviously.  Faith is already taken, of
>>course; probably Fortitude too (David).

>Fortitude: Analogous to Stone; David.

IIRC, Magog's former Word, and listed as a Malakite of Stone in the APG...


- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1294
********************************

The material here is (C) 1999 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated.
All rights reserved.